Soliciting opinions- EDC knife/carry, office.

My work circumstances are changing again, and, like all changes, there are plusses and minuses (is that a word?) in this one, and they bear on what will work for me, for EDC.

There are several points on the “plus” side. I will no longer be commuting for 1.5 hours each way, partly by car, partly by subway, partly by walking. I will no longer be passing through a city where the maximum legal blade length for a pocket knife is a ridiculous 3 inches. I will no longer be 30+ miles, a river and some major potential terrorist targets away from my car during a typical day. I will, instead, be staying entirely within a state where the actual knife laws are typically confusing, but where the current DA's policy is not to prosecute anyone for merely carrying ANY folding knife- though of course it could always be added to other charges, if other charges there be.

On the minus side, I will still be working in an office environment where, though it's pretty casual, nothing even remotely resembling a weapon will be considered acceptable in the least, and displaying such an item, even once, even by accident, could easily cost me not just embarrassment, but a great deal of income. Uniform for the gig is khakis or similar, loafers or boat shoes, and polo shirts in the summer… not exactly a lot of concealment options. Simply hanging a pouch on my belt or clipping a folder to my pocket or wasteband will NOT work- I have to be more discrete than that. Neck knives tend to be too visible as bulges in the fabric of polo shirts unless very small.

Anyone have any novel suggestions? Obviously, I've considered (and may still consider) a Sebenza (or more likely a Mission MPF-1 ( http://www.missionknives.com/Indexframes.html ) , since I do sail from time to time, and it would be nice not to have to change), but the clip-carry on either really won't work for concealment.

I expect this would be a piece that would be carried a lot, and used... well, with any luck, never. I've carried folding knives for decades, one way or another, and never revealed them (except to those who showed me theirs first), but it's getting harder as dress is getting more casual in the workplace.

I'll carry something tiny (Leatherman Micra or Victorinoc Executive, or similar) for everyday tasks, partly so I won't ever have to reveal the larger knife, and if I ever do reveal it, it will be under extreme circumstances.

The problem is really one of carry more than the knife itself. I have lots of folders currently, so something I already have may work if I can find a good carry… or I could possibly be persuaded to part with up to $500 or so for a great solution.

What I'd really like, of course, is something that's a lot like a Leatherman Micra when folded, and like a Lone Wolf Harsey ( http://www.lonewolfknives.com/store/pages/products-harsey-lc12600.shtml ) when open. :-)

The best way to hide something is to put it out in plain sight sometimes.The more I try to conceal something the more it looks,well,like something being concealed. Do you wear glasses? A hardshell case is perfect for many folders. Some clothing drapes better for concealment. Pleated trousers tend to drape better with full pockets. There was a nasty hideout rig favoured by Bikers. The old O/U High standard .22mag Derringer was relieved of the grips and the screw run through a fake wallet with trigger cutout. Trouble was, that piece had a notorious trigger and lousy firing pin bushing. A few went to hospital with more than sciatia from sitting on them <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Do you carry a brief case or large zippered folder? Are your personal belongings going to be scanned? I agree that the best place to hide something is in plain sight. A small folder can fit nicely into a pocket of a briefcase or attache then you can get to it.

What about getting an ankle sheath? I dont know how comfortable they are, but thats an option.

just my two pennies

Garrett

Get you favorit, pleated front, kakhis - turn out the front pockets and get out your sewing kit. If nothing better presents then grap the tail of your dress shirt front but you may have sufficient cloth in the in-seam of your kakhis to clip off a strip about 1inch by 1.5 inch. Sew this to the inside back of your kakhi pockets as a little band that will hold the clip of your folder. Don't use the inside front of the pocket or it will drag down the pocket on the outside. Clip your folder to this little band and no one will ever see it. This is a simple mod that will work with any pants but hides a larger knife with pleated pants. If you want to really do-it-up you can get tailored pants with an inside change pocket sewn in that way and your will be 'stylin! or you could open out the front pocket and line it with leather or cordura sheathing similar to these. Or if you preferr Kahki you could try these The dockers have the fashion label and also a "hidden" cargo pocket that is accessable through the side seam that is tailored to carry a PDA without causing bulging or drooping. I'd think that it could carry a folder easier than a PDA - or as well as a PDA.

Presumed,

Congrats on the new job! As for your carry options, a number of suggestions from the other posters are good. We are "casual" in my office as well (a University), but aren't allowed to wear jeans, etc. I have started wearing khaki cargo pants (Royal Robbins) instead of the Dockers that I had been wearing. They are alot more comfy than the Dockers and of course they allow me to carry all my stuff! Got the idea from several friends in LE that wear them.

As for the knives themselves, what about multitools? Would they consider these a weapon? I wear a Wave on my belt and no one even blinks. In my office, a large number of people wear multitools. While not necessarily a replacement for a good folder, they are ALOT better than nothing. If a full size tool is out, maybe a Leatherman Squirt on the keychain? Not the greatest blade in the world, but again better than nothing, plus it has pliers. I have surprised myself with how often I have used the Squirt's pliars (I originally thought they would be too small to be useful), and the wire cutters are great for cutting zip ties. Much easier than scissors on a SAK or the Wave.

As for the Harsey, I would follow the advice of the other posts to add a hidden pocket and just carry the damn thing. If you are really in a position where you need to use it, then losing your job is probably the least of your worries. The Harsey looks like a great knife. You may want to check out a Benchmade Ares. It is a very similarly styled knife with an Axis lock for about half the price. I tend to carry either the Ares or my Sebenza every day at work.

Best of luck with the new position!

Greg

I'm sitting here at my office desk (picture Dilbert office arrangement) with my Docker pants that have the extra pockets. My Benchmade mini-griptilian fits nicely in the "side" pocket. However, I only have one pair of these, so the rest of the week I'm out-of-luck. I do care the benchmade in my front left pocket with my handkerchief. Works well and never raises any eyebrows. Comfortable and no hassle. This knife is a hair under 3in blade, and I've had it out to cut an apple, with no eyebrows. If I took it out routinely to sharpen pencils, they might wonder. I used to carry a smaller pocket knife in my soft briefcase, but decided, I wanted it on my person. Check your company's weapons policy. Would you really get canned for having a small knife? Another thought is to join their first responder team. Then you can have your fanny pack with all your first aid gear and a cutting utensil.

you don't find that the 511's look too "tactical" for the office? Is this because of the fashion of your peers or because you are on the first-responder team and are expected to be carrying more gear about you?

Good suggestions, thanks- I've come close to both in my own thinking.

I do use reading glasses, and some of the cases are excellent in size and shape for this... the only really awkward part would be having the glasses case with me and still not having the glasses when I needed them. It even occurred to me that it might be possible to make a case with a less obvious pocket for a knife that also carries glasses- I do leatherwork.

I've also been toying with ideas for a "wallet" carrier of some sort... maybe a larger, flat carrier designed for a front pocket. Back would be a more convenient carry (I use front pockets a lot) but limit the practical size.

Thanks. I doubt that the company has any explicit "weapons policy", but since I'm a "consultant", they need no special excuse- anything I do that makes anyone uncomfortable would be plenty. I also doubt that they have anything like a "first responder team" (sort of conflicts with the Dilbert theme).

On the other hand, maybe my desire to have something more substantial on my person is just a hang-over from my earlier circumstances. After all, the "car" is just 100 feet away now, not 30+ miles. I felt much more exposed when the possibility of a terrorist attack could leave me stranded without the subway as a return route.

Thanks- I've only been there a matter of days, and I've seen co-workers wearing jeans, but no cargo pants, and no multitools.

The idea of carrying the Harsey at work was intended as humor- not that I might not be tempted if there was a good way to do it, but it seems unlikely. It's huge.

Thanks.

I like the idea of the loop, it seems that it might work well- but I hesitate to commit to modifying every pair of pants I wear. Also, I'm much more comfortable with leatherwork than tailoring.

I have several pairs with the inside change pocket already, but they're too shallow to keep a knife from falling sideways, and... they're awfully useful for change.

Nice to know Blackie Collins is still designing stuff.

No scanning for the moment- that hasn't always been the case, and it doesn't leave many options.

I used to carry a large shoulder pouch for the commute, but that's no longer necessary (I think- too soon to be sure), and it wasn't with me most of the day, anyway. I didn't take it to meetings, lunch, etc. I have a couple of briefcases, but they seem to have gone out of style- haven't carried one for years.

I thought of the ankle sheath option. Never worn one, so I don't have any clue how well they work. Seems like concealment could still be a problem (guys routinely cross their legs and expose some sock, and it's not to clear to me how they stay "up"), and it might be trading off the ability to run any distance for the carry. Hmm.

Thanks.

i'm sure that i remember seeing a wallet that had a tunnel stip of leather/fabric in order to hold a small knife. due to the knife laws here i usually carry a small SAK, and a Stan Shaw two blade folder(all under 3 inches!) use mine quite a bit for pealing oranges. i work in an office as well its fully open plan though.

Steve,


Was this it?


Take care,

Andy

Are you sure that the change pockets wouldnt work to hold the clip of a small folder like a CRKT Kiss? Let the knife hang into the pocket but clip it to the outside of the change pocket just as you would if you had sewn a tunnel loop? Havn't tried this with my suit pants yet since I haven't had any difficulty carrying my wave even with my suits. BTW, I make a point of wearing my wave on my belt in the interview thereby avoiding any jobs that might have a problem with that. Doesn't take any conversation at all.

no, but similar, think it might have been a blackie collins affair
sc

do you think you'd get away with the year knife at your work?! <img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It appears that Spyderco no longer offers the Spydercard, but that may be an option for you if you could find one somewhere. I have one, and I will admit that I don't carry it often, because I am able to carry a larger knife, but this might provide a discreet blade for you.

good point, i believe that SOG make a simillar type of knife, serrated or plain edge.

Good comments. I guess a couple things play into this. One, I don't flaunt it. It's in my pocket 98% of the time. Not everyone here has even seen it. I'm sure that none of them are able to discern it in my pocket. It sits pretty good in pants that have a change pocket, too. Two, I don't think that most people view it as a tactical knife. Because they don't have any idea what that means. I originally bought the full size Griptillian, but it was too large for an office EDC. I was really impressed with the knife, just too large to carry in my pocket all the time IMHO. The mini-griptillian is smaller than a box knife, and is smaller than the palm of my hand (and I don't have big hands). The Benchmade 710 is even more streamline, but my personal preference was the griptillian. Yes there are some other "gentlemen" ; knives, and if I was in a suite and tie, I'd likely move to that. But for khaki's and polo's this works good for me. If I was concerned about my employment, or lack of, by carrying it, I would definitely put it with my FAK in my briefcase.

Many "suits" round here carry those day-planner thingys and that might house a small folder nicely. Also if you have a soft-sided belt wear for your cell phone or pda you could stuff a folder in that holster without causing much of a noticeable bulge if you use something like the KISS. With some of the longer cellphone / PDA holsters you could get a fixed blade like the ArcLite cuda into the holster without it being noticed. The trick with this is the thickness not the length of the knife.

Minime,

I don't think they are terribly "tactical" looking... I don't wear the black ones though, which are probably seen more that way. I used to always wear Dockers, but decided to try switching over and no one seems to have even noticed. I am the Radiation Safety Officer on campus though and am therefore on the Hazmat team, but I don't think that has much to do with it. Basically, we have a administrative order that we can't wear jeans, and the 5.11s look alot better than jeans do, with more pockets. I do wear work boots with them, as I occassionally have to walk through a flooded laboratory or scrounge through a scrap metal dumpster when people don't do what they are supposed to. The pants work really well with the boots. If Presumed has seen jeans in the office, I doubt they are going to raise eyebrows over kakhi cargo pants. But you never know...

Greg

Thanks for the info. I've been wanting to get a pair but wondered how they would go over.

Having read all the posts to this point--which contain many good ideas--it seems to me that a couple of solutions present themselves.

First, who said a knife must be carried in a front pocket? I've carried a large folder in my right rear pants pocket for about 28 years, and have rarely had it noticed. Currently, it's a Microtech SOCOM, which isn't a small knife by any means. I alternate with an Emerson Raven--slightly shorter blade, but OAL is about the same. Neither is clipped into the pocket, but carried tip down (my preference) along the outside edge. Normally, a bandana holds it in place, but in the past, with some larger than normal pockets, I have added a safety pin near the bottom of the pocket, thereby creating a miniature "pocket within a pocket" to hold the end of the folder.

I started to suggest boots, & some form of boot knife, but you indicated loafers were most common. Should you choose boots, though, you can clip a "tactical" into the top, or with a slight modification (akin to the loop in a pocket described elsewhere in this thread), just inside the boot, with equal facility.

Another option would be to carry the knife in your sock. Go to a "fine men's clothier" and get a pair (or two) of gentlemen's garters, like one used to see in old Bob Hope/Bing Crosby movies. They're made to hold up dress socks. They're elastic, encircle the leg just below the knee, and fasten to the sock with a garter snap. Adjust the garter to fit, attach it to the socks, and clip a lightweight folder, such as a Spyderco Delica, or maybe Endura, into the top of the sock. It's not exactly a Skean Dubh, and won't be fast access, but it will be with you.

I'll also second the Royal Robbins 5.11 pants. We're business casual, & nobody blinks at them.

Just my 2 cents...

David

I'm changing jobs too going from a real casual place to a business casual so I have started looking at ways to EDC items. I had a boss who always had to have expensive suits and expensive overprices cars carry this little leather key wallet. I searched and found one and replaced the worn Mag Lite that I was using as my keychain with the key case and started adding in items. They stay hidden because I can flip the needed key out before going in the office building. Here are a couple quick pics (They are large as I have not yet edited them) http://www.ninefamily.com/images/keycaseclosed.jpg and http://www.ninefamily.com/images/keycaseopened.jpg.
I coworker in the military gave me the P38 and it fit in that bottom hook like it was made for it. The Mag solitaire was the perfect length as well, I want to replace it with an Arc AAA though. The little knife that fits behind the keys is a Gerber Ridge Knife (same as a CKRT K.I.S.S. I'm pretty sure). I'm still working on this little PSK but with timing of this thread I thought I would go ahead and show it.

Hi Eugene,
The URL you gave is, I believe, supposed to be http://www.ninefamily.com/images/keycaseopened.jpg, instead. That looks like a very convenient item. I'm sure it keeps your pocket feeling much more neat and tidy, yes?
Stay safe,
J.T.

Man...I feel grateful to live in the south, where boys carry knives from before puberty, straight into the coffin! <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I work in a drugstore (hence the username!) and there, even the store manager usually clips his knife to his pocket. But it's in a retail setting, so I guess they figure a knife is the same as those box openers with razor blades. The only company policy on weapons is no firearms on company property. They sent us a memo reminding us this after a pharmacist for a different chain was brutally murdered one night. Typical, of the pretty boy stuffed shirt executive crowd!

But I digress. I too wear a Wave on a belt sheath and use a separate pocket knife daily (and with great flair!) to open boxes, totes, etc.

Anyway, I've never worn really fancy suit pants, so I don't know how well they "print." But I'm sure that you can find a way to hide it in plain sight, after skimming some of these posts. I like the day planner idea myself....you know, North American Arms sells a "day planner" that clips to the belt and conceals a small .32 or .380 Automatic plus a spare clip! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've found a Case Mini Trapper with a carbon steel blade in a properly folded hankie/bandana in your rear pocket rides well and is not visable or prints at all. It is readily available for quick accsess and atracts no suspicion, though it is not a locker. It's quite thin and will easily hold a razor edge but will not stand extreme abuse. The carbon steel ones are no longer in production but are easily found at gun and knife shows in new condition for 30 or 40 bucks. I use one for a backup/spare to a Benchmade AFCK.

with reference to an earlier post have a look at this site heinnie hayes the do ship to the states, so if you can't get it there, try them. the have the SOG access card knife , or look on the heinnie page at the eichorn gentlemans folder.hope some of this might help
stevec

I took the "hiding in plain sight" approach. I attached a removable split rinf to my small leather Palm portfolio's zipper pull. To this I attach a Leatherman Juice, Fox whistle, Photon II and a CPR mask. Occaisionally, folks would as me about it and I would explain why I was carrying them. After 9/11 this explanation met with interest instead of objections. I also have money, phone card, quarters, razor knife and a cheat sheet in the business card pocket on the inside.

http://www.bladeart.com/mission-tac/mission_wallet/mission_wallet.htm

Well I like these for my front pocket.

Dockers Mobile Pant: The inside vault pocket holds a folder just as well as an outside pocket in my experience, and keeps the clip hidden. Meanwhile the knee pockets fit a PSK perfectly. These now come in microfiber as well as the original cotton.

ScottEvest: should work well, but looks terrible.

This: http://www.magills.com/pgroup_details.php?pgroupid=364

Start wearing a Sport Coat or a suit. Nobody's going to look in your jacket inside pockets. I have two suits from Kilgour French Stanbury with specially made pockets for my knives.

Better yet, just use a postcard. clip the knife to it lengthwise and put it in the pocket. Not only does it keep the knife in place ready for use, it keeps it from printing through the pocket.

You said you will be working "... in an office environment where, though it's pretty casual, nothing even remotely resembling a weapon will be considered acceptable..."

I'm rather curious as to what kind of office you are referring. Casual dress usually goes hand in glove with casual attitudes.

I myself work with the IT guys in the back room of our casual offices. Anything up to a flamethrower would be acceptable, and they would be willing to discuss the flamethrower. The feeling is, "How cool is it?"

The cooler the gadget, the more acceptable.

As far as "weapons" go, letter openers available at your local Staples would make great stabbing daggers. A long, thin, piece of metal like that would slide right through flesh.

A sharpened pencil would also make for a dagger, as would your average high-end pen. Click the pen point down and you are all set.

Your average PC repair kit contains all kinds of "weapons," should one choose to look at such tools in that way.

Craig

Working as a cop, it became de riguer to notice who had a knife clipped to their person. It also became quite obvious that the bad guys were paying attention to who had knives clipped where. My standard practice became to carry my Spyderco Delica completely inside my trouser pocket. If I believed that it would be needed and had the forethought, I could reposition it and use the clip or more importantly, simply have it in hand. If you are interested in neckknives,may I suggest something along the lines of an Emerson La Griffe or a FrontSight HideAway. Both are very small, unobtrusive and imminently usable.

Gomez

First, I owe everybody an apology for not keeping up with the responses here. No excuse, but it's been that kind of week (first week on the new "job", etc.). I do appreciate all the suggestions.

For years I carried a CRKT Sampson's KISS (arguably a 3 inch blade, a little larger than a standard KISS) clipped to the back side of my Palm belt case (which rode horizontally). That was a bit smaller than I'm really comfortable with for a primary knife, but it was a lot better than nothing, it was almost always with me, and well concealed that way. However, some months back I upgraded from a Palm 3xe to a Palm Tungsten T, which is consideably smaller, and the case not large enough to hide even that small knife.

My currently preferred "weekend" carry (if I'm not on the water) is a Gerber Harsey Airframe (plain edge, black handles, 154cm, "1 of 1000", yadda yadda) which has a 4 inch blade. That's a little long for a vertical hip pocket (wallet) carry, though a diagonal rig of some sort might work.

The change pocket might work fine for a standard KISS- but then, there's really not much of a problem concealing a knife of that size. As noted elsewhere, I was hoping to find an inconspicuous carry for something a bit larger.

One thing I've been thinking of- instead of sewn "tunnel loops" etc., maybe just a single piece of, say, 9 oz leather or perhaps eighth-inch polyethelene, with edges cut something like the bottom half of a backwards "D" (to fit the shape of the bottom of a typical front pocket). Just thinking, but a typical clip folder could then be clipped to the top edge of the "insert" and it would ride out of sight, but stable and away from the grit that accumulates in pocket bottoms. I don't know what would be required to retrieve it one-handed, but it might be worth a little experimentation. Hmm...

I was very interested in the Spydercard- I think I heard that they retired them because there was some problem with the lock failing, so you might want to be careful with yours.

But, really, I was looking for a solution for something a bit larger.

I gave up the day-planner thing many years ago, when the Apple Newton came out, and I never looked back- I carry literally hundreds of times more information now than I did then, in much less bulk.

I did use the back of a Palm case for my carry for years, but my current Palm and "cell" phone are both pretty tiny.

It is surprising how difficult it is to find a decent FLAT folder.

Thanks for the suggestions. I like the safety pin idea, and I may experiment with that- it's a "mod" that I could apply to a lot of pants with little hassle. I think I'm also going to experiement with the "flat pocket insert" idea that I posted elsewhere.

Don't notice anyone wearing boots in my workplaces lately.

Not sure about the garters- never worn them, but aren't they designed for taller socks than those that usally accompany casual wear.

Not sure if I'd be more embarrassed to have the knife seen or the garters... :-)

Thanks for posting the pictures.

I currently carry my keys in a case like that, and it has a couple of things in it- a "hot spark" flint and a Photon 3- although I carry my P-38 in my wallet. I use the big ring at the "bottom" to carry the remote for the car alarm, which in itself makes the whole thing too bulky.

It's a handy device, but not with me as constantly as my wallet and other pocket contents, and a knife it will hold is going to be pretty easily concealable anyway.

If the pendulum keeps swinging the way it has for decades now, I have no doubt that someone here in the "liberal" East will propose that we should all have our teeth pulled- for our own safety, of course. Certainly no one with teeth should be allowed to board a commercial airliner.

Could be the geographic area. Attitudes differ in different places.

I speak from experience- there was a lady co-worker in a different job that picked up on my "survivalist" tendencies (initially because I had a (tiny) flashlight in my pouch when needed, then she noticed that I carred a lighter though I don't smoke, and so on). Once, having brought a paper cup of hot tea back to my desk and finding I had nothing to stir it with, I pulled out a Ka-Bar "Hobo" set (folding knife, fork and spoon that clip together). She immediately focused on the knife component, and from then on made repeaded remarks about my being "armed", pretended to be afraid of me, told co-workers to be careful not to get me angry, and on and on... eventually, the boss came by and asked me to take it home.

The lady in question was not appeased. Later, when she overheard a conversation I was having with another shooter, and realized I was insane enough to actually OWN firearms, she redoubled her efforts to get everyone in the office to regard me as some sort of latent sociopath, and warned them that I might "go postal" at any time.

In a personal setting, I can ignore such idiots. Professionally, I don't need the grief.

Thanks for the feedback.

>>Working as a cop, it became de riguer to notice who had a knife clipped to their person<<

Was that information useful?

>>It also became quite obvious that the bad guys were paying attention to who had knives clipped where.<<

Not sure I see "bad guys" knowing that I'm armed as a big negative- it would seem worse for them to think me unarmed. There's some downside to their knowing where it is, I suppose, but then that would apply to the sidearm of a uniformed policeman as well, wouldn't it?

Sorry you have to work with a busy-body.

Your boss took the only action he could and appeased the sqeaky wheel. He's thinking in terms of avoiding a lawsuit on the Promotion of a Hostile Work Environment.

I worked as a bag boy in a walmart type of store through college. Helped another worker and a customer tie something big on the top of the customers car and pulled out my little pocket knife to cut the string and the other store worker just kept going on an on about me carrying a "weapon". I tried explaining over and over that is was a tool not a weapon be he wouldn't listen. Next time he asked me to help load something I loaded it and tied it on and handed him the rest of the rope and said here cut this and walked off <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mine has to be with me always since it has keys to both vehicles and the house so I can't go anywhere without it. Unfortunatly it doesn't hold a very big knife but I have yet to find a better solution to knife carry that will work with all kinds of clothing.

"Was the information useful?" I'd say yes. If you identify the presence of a weapon before it comes into play, it's easier to keep it out of play than to remove it from play once it's been assessed. That applies to good guys and bad guys. Bad guys who spot knifeclips are, generally, not going to be disuaded because of the knifes presence, they will simply make sure that you don't get to bring it into play. Bad guys make their decisions on who to attack based on lots of things (body language, eye contact, awareness level of the intended victim) but rarely on the presence, or lack thereof, of weapons.

The problem with a uniformed cop carrying a knife and gun, both plainly visible to the bad guy, is that should the bad guy choose to attempt to disarm the officer, the officer's attention must be split between protecting two weapons. There have been cases where the bad guy spotted both weapons, made a feint for the gun and accessed the officer's knife.

The role of the knife, defensively speaking, is not to allow you to say "get back or I'll cut you" but rather to say "get back or I'll cut you, again". The knife is more useful to you if its presence is not known to the bad guy until it is in use.

Of course, carrying a knife, as a defensive option, without training is not advisable. The knife is every bit as much a lethal tool as the gun and subject to the same restrictions on use.

Gomez

I really liked the Air Frame when I saw (may still get one), but it is way too thick for discreet carry. I decided to go with a Harsey Air Ranger II. The blade is comparable to the Air Frame, but the body is quite a bit thinner, and it's still dressy enough to go to the opera.

I'm a technology consultant, and I go in and out of all sorts of different enviroments. Other than the work I did for the Mercer County Prosecutor's Office (which required going in and out of court buildings), I've never had a problem with my knives (yes, plural).

I think the best way to handle it is to be as discreet as possible. I generally carry at least four knives with me at all times while working:

1. Victorinox Classic or Midnite Manager II, for box opening and other utility work, especially when somebody asks the inevitable question, "Does anyone have a knife?"

2. Victorinox Money Clip. Backup for the smaller one.

3. Gerber Harsey Air Ranger II. The big knife. NEVER gets used for anything utilitarian so that the edge stays sharp for real emergencies. Legal in NYC (less than 4" blade). Incidentally, the Air Frame is also slightly less than 4". I believe the Air Frame is 3.875", while the Air Ranger II is 3.75". Same blade style, slightly different steel.

4. Leatherman Wave (OK, counts as two knives). Mostly for the tool kit. Useful for opening up computer cases.

When I'm in The City, I will also frequently stash a Benchmade 100 River and Rescue in my brief for disaster use (nice sturdy, safe-ish tip). I also frequent rock concerts, so in those venues where pat-down searches are the norm, I'll put my SOG Access Card in my "sport" wallet. The wallet doesn't ever get searched. I especially worry about being in large crowds in limited access buildings in a disaster or emergency situation.

The Air Ranger gets clipped to either my front pocket or rear, depending on what I'm wearing (pocket style vs. clip-ability, do I want the pants to get roughed up by the finish of the knife). Most people never notice the knife, and having something small and innocuous like a Classic or Money Clip on hand keeps the Air Ranger sharp and out of sight.

Thanks for the post. Don't tell aardwolfe we're still talking about kknives; it seems to set him off. ;-)

I don't go to rock concerts a lot, but a couple of years ago at one I was accosted by a drunk- got tired of his attempts to manhandle me, put him in an arm lock, but when I finally released him he just kept coming, shoving and shouting. I didn't strike him, though I thought of it... didn't respond, just stared in his eyes, waiting to see if he was going to escalate or back down. After a few shoves and some shouting he went away. I was carrying a knife at the time, but of course it never came to mind for this sort of thing. Sort of spoiled the evening, though.

I like Bill Harsey designs a lot- he and I clearly share some values with regard to knives.

You're right about the blade lengths; though I've seen some sellers list the Air Frame as 4" and the Air Ranger as 3.5", according to the Gerber site they're much closer than that.

I haven't seen an Air Ranger in person, and it took awhile to find a picture of one. I have to say that it doesn't really look that much thinner- probably one of those things you just have to check out in person, I guess.

What's that second knob on the handle near the hinge? I thought the Air Frame was a liner lock as well?
Here's the Air Ranger II you're describing:





and the Air Frame I'm describing:

Hey guys,sorryI havent posted lately.I've been busy with Uncle Sam and on family vacation.One of my favorite topics,KNIVES!!! If you are looking for a nice folder check out an A.G.Russell One Hand Knife.I have one and just love it.The handle is one solid piece of stainless spring steel that is only 3/16 inch thick.The blade is a Wharncliffe blade of AUS-8A steel.It appears to be a delicate knife but it is suprisingly strong.It's pivot point is a quarter of an inch thick.It holds a great edge too.I cut through two strands of a three inch nylon line in one slice.This was after using it for two months and only touching it up once on a ceramic sharpiner.They are a little expensive($125.00)but not as bad as a Sebenza.I forgot to mention the edge length is an even three inches.It carries well in the pocket without making much of a profile.The One Hand Knife is a lot of knife in a nice slim package! Of course you can tell I'm a little biased <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.Tanx for letting me put in my $.02
Later
John

The second knob is a second lock that slides up to cover the liner lock and prevent it from moving sideways.

The original Air Ranger does not have this second lock, and is also significantly smaller in size--blade length is 3.25" I think. Of course the Air Ranger II came out right after I bought my Air Ranger, so I went ahead and got both.

BTW, where did you get the black Air Frame? I've only seen the original tianium handles and the later brushed aluminum, never black. It looks really nice!

Oh yeah, and I never carry a knife to a rock concert for the possibility of getting into a fight. It's more of a peace of mind thing for if some disaster should strike the venue. I used to work on stage crews, and with all those wires and ropes around, not to mention bizarre stage setups, if one of those things were to come down, or if you needed to leave the building in a real hurry, you might need to cut your way through something...inanimate, hopefully...

>>BTW, where did you get the black Air Frame? I've only seen the original tianium handles and the later brushed aluminum, never black. It looks really nice!<<

Thanks. I think it is a good looking knife (at least until the black finish abrades off here and there, or chips, or...), but I think I would have preferred the Ti.

I sent you a private message (on this board) with the contact info for the vendor I bought mine from. Would have made it more public, but he only has one left, and it's a limited editiion...

>>h yeah, and I never carry a knife to a rock concert for the possibility of getting into a fight.<<

Of course- that was sort of the point I was trying to make. I was in an altercation, and it never came to mind... on the other hand, I sort of hope it would, if, say, I was present when someone opened fire on innocents, and there was an opening... but the scenario is unlikely, and weapon use is at most secondary.

I suspect that we're not going to reconcile our viewpoints on this forum- and it's probably not the place.

>>If you identify the presence of a weapon before it comes into play, it's easier to keep it out of play than to remove it from play once it's been assessed. That applies to good guys and bad guys.<<

I guess my thought is that if you spot a knife on me, you have not identified a threat, as I am not going to be one. If you don't spot a knife on someone else, you have not eliminated them as a threat, they still could be carrying anything. And just because a "bad guy" has a knife doesn't mean that that's what he'll use. Seems like very iffy information at best.

>>Bad guys make their decisions on who to attack based on lots of things (body language, eye contact, awareness level of the intended victim) but rarely on the presence, or lack thereof, of weapons.<<

Frankly, I find that very hard to believe. Can you cite a source for that info?

I would suspect that criminals are using "body language, eye contact, awareness... " as gauges of the likelyhood of real resistance- and being armed is fairly convincing evidence in that direction. If it's "rarely" a factor, I suspect it's because people are rarely openly carrying weapons.

>>The role of the knife, defensively speaking, is not to allow you to say "get back or I'll cut you" but rather to say "get back or I'll cut you, again". The knife is more useful to you if its presence is not known to the bad guy until it is in use.<<

There is no way to talk about past altercations to any extent without sounding like a jerk, but twice, that I remember, this has not been the case in my personal experience. Twice, showing that I was armed and willing to resist caused an assailant to leave me alone (once after a lengthy verbal harange) and prevented me from having to use the knife- which I consider a perferable outcome. In both cases, I'm sure that if I hadn't shown it, I would have had to use it. Once having a knife stopped a guy who was dragging his wife accross the parking lot by her hair. And at least once, when I was a young jerk, it didn't work, and I got cut... facing the situation when I probably should have run.

It's not an easy call. Obviously, those with overwhelming force on their side (numbers, firearms) are not going to be dissuaded, and concealment until use is the better option.

As an absolute statement, though, what you've said is simply not correct.

>>Of course, carrying a knife, as a defensive option, without training is not advisable. The knife is every bit as much a lethal tool as the gun and subject to the same restrictions on use.<<

It is certainly a potentially lethal tool, and not to be taken lightly... but c'mon. "Every bit as much a lethal tool as the gun"? Check some hospital statistics- it's nowhere close. If that were true, firearms would never have caught on in the first place.

These "authoritative", absolute, but obvious overstatements are not helping your case.

What I think you're really saying is that WE shouldn't be dealing with such things, that it all should be left to trained professionals... who generally aren't there- can't be- when the stuff goes down, but oh, well. Tough for us.

For decades now we've had the entire world telling us constantly that we cannot defend ourselves, and that we should never try.

The world is not a better place now for that attitude.

Perhaps it's true that we cannot, but hearing it from those with a vested interest in continuing to "protect" us has the flavor of asking a barber if you need a haircut... and in the post-Todd Beamer age, it's a LOT more obvious to a lot of people that there are times when we should try- when we must try- whatever the cost.

PL,

I agree. We probably won't reconcile our views and this isn't the place. I'll clarify a couple of things and drop it.

I'm no longer a cop and absolutely am not trying to put across the message that private citizens should rely on law enforcement personnel for their safety. My comment about the knife being a "lethal tool" was not meant to refer to its lethality (as compared to guns), but rather its status under the law (using a knife as a weapon is viewed in the same light as using a gun, ie both are considered "lethal force").

Gomez

The wonderful thing about the Constitution of the United States is that it, ostensibly, leaves the use of lethal force to the discretion of the soverign citizen--from this right all other rights under the Constitution derive. Unfortunately, there have been those, and are those, who would rather live in fear of their own soverign power and furthermore, feel than all other "citizens" should have that fundamental soverign power removed from them by federal fiat.

Which is not to say that the indiscriminate use of lethal force should not go unpunished...still, it is my right to decide when lethal force is justified--only a jury of my peers in a court of law can gainsay that decision.

If you can still find a copy of it, read Lynn Thompson's treatise about knives in a fight. Willingness to deploy and speed of deployment beats superior training every time. Of course, training is still a Good Thing.

No disagreements there; thank you for the clarification.

how about one of these [img]http://www.sogknives.com/minxrvis.htm[/img] kept in a pne wallet, like the ones mont blanc do, the knife is low on the clip and it shouldn't show, just put a nice enough pen in the pouch to justify it and nobody should ask any quiestions, they'll just assume that its another expensive pen.

Sorry for the delay in my response; work does interfere sometimes! :-)

I wouldn't worry about the garters showing--unless you decide to moon someone!

You mentioned, I believe, that you want a flat knife. Consider the Spyderco line, then. The current Delica & Endura models, with the clip removed, are approximately 5/16s of an inch (+/-9mm) in thickness, and are incredibly "big" cutters for their small size & weight. If you want stronger, get the same models in all stainless steel--at a weight penalty, though.

Also, have been re-reading this thread, & thinking on it, too. I'd like to suggest you explore Bowen belt-buckle knives. Their web site is http://www.bowenknife.com. Over the weekend, I wore mine again, and it dawned on me that it could be the perfect answer for you in your new environment.

I've owned one for over 25 years, & have never been "made" while wearing it. They're available in wide & narrow versions, with the narrow being best for "dress" clothes--and maybe for business casual, too. I usually wear mine with blue jeans or shorts.

Two pieces of advice, both from experience:
1: Should you decide on one, get the single edged version. It's more useful for everyday things than the double-edged version. It's a bit difficult to scrape peanut butter from a jar with the D/E version.

2. Don't go through a metal detector with it! At our local airport, about 1985, I forgot I had it on, & did so. At that day & time, the worst that happened was that I had to lose the knife. :-( (To add insult to injury, it never got turned in to the property room, and no official report was made--the guard simply kept it. I know because I had it checked out.) Be aware that they may be considered concealed weapons--especially the D/E versions. Don't know how successfully the argument can be made that they're really in plain sight, if you know what you're seeing. My lawyer (an old High School friend--got his after seeing mine) wears one, but not on court days.

Anyway, just my further thoughts.

Thanks for a good thread.

David

Yet again, I owe everybody an apology for not responding to messages for awhile. I've been putting in some 12 and 13 hour days...

Thanks to all who offered excellent suggestions in this thread.

Some of them I'm still following up on, but, so far, two things have worked best.

It turns out that some "inside" front pocket change pockets do work for a clip- and a few do not. However, the suggested solution of a simple safety pin through the pocket layers works very well indeed- well enough to consider using it even if there is a change pocket. With the knife in place along the front edge of the front pocket, putting a largeish safety pin vertically, about half an inch away from the knife and about two-thirds of the way up, makes a nice little "custom" sleeve for it that both keeps it out of the way, out of sight, and still easily accessible.. even a surprisingly large knife. I do have to be a little careful if my knees are up- say, in a low chair or in the back seat of a small auto- but no solution is absolutely perfect. Especial thanks to David for the suggestion- if others mentioned it as well, thanks, sorry I missed mentioning you.

Two safety pins, or, to get really extravagant, a line of stitching, would also isolate the knife from pocket-junk wear, and allow use of the rest of the pocket for other (infrequently used- it's a little tight) items. For me, the lighter fits that description, and possibly the Leatherman Micra.

Thanks for the suggestion- I've got a pretty good folder solution right now, but I'll take a look at it.

I remember the Bowen belt-buckle knives available in the '70s... then it was only what I now assume is the "wide" version, and they were fairly easy to spot- the website you pointed out looks to be much more sophisticated. With the "rounded" option and various belts, it is probably much harder to spot. The "money belt" adds other "carry" possibilities.

Interesting. Thanks again.