Spontaneous Immersion Kit

Posted by: aligator

Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/01/18 10:35 PM

Seems to me, any purposeful endeavor, recreational or work, aught have contingency plans and equipment. Boats have EPIRB, ditch kits, maybe rafts and exposure/survival/immersion suits. Aircraft, give or take similar. Even for skaters/boaters/travelers on lake ice, there is knowledge and equipment recommendations, including immersion management.There is a bunch of information on immersion hypothermia. And yet, vehicle in the water, slip/trip> fall in, duck boat sinking, past "wear your PFD", not a lot of information.

Car in water(accident, black ice, impaired, bridge collapse, flood, flash flood, mud slide, land slide), I drive past one of NYC's reservoirs, to and from work, at least 5 days a week. On a 3 lane parkway, separated from the water, by a guardrail, vehicles traveling 70-80mph., guardrail is not much of an impediment, and occasionally, one goes in. From the shore, out about 5-6', it's 2-3" deep, then precipitously drops to 80'. Most are body recoveries.

My intent, is to put together a system, to deal with spontaneous immersions. Starting with clothes that will sustainably keep me alive if not warm in 35 degree water, 3mm. neoprene gloves, neoprene hood, add a manually inflatable vest, with enough storage/attachments for signaling (mirror, strobe (spare batt), green laser, whistle, flare, smoke, dye, panel, flashlight/head lamp, PLB/immersion proof air and marine band radios (probably not both, depending on where I am, reservoirs no boats, but planes over head, Hudson River, Lake Erie, boats and aircraft). Add HEED-3, ice daggers, BOK/Med, mask/snorkel (mitigate asperation secondary to wave action) and a throw bag. How many people do yous know, know what a throw bag is, much less carry one in their POV, much less are practiced with them? Probably something like zero, so if I don't have one, they likely won't. If I can gather the gumption to throw them the bag (with a light stick attached, easier to see/find at night), all they need to do is pull. Might be the quickest way out. On my end, reinforced loop, figure of 8 follow through, backed up, for me to grab onto, put an elbow through, or (6' continuous loop of 1" tubular webbing, twisted into a figure of 8, slip the arms through, add a locking carabiner, instant chest harness) clip into the chest harness. In the car secured to drivers side visor and duplicated on the vest, is a window punch and a pair of rip shears, for car egress.

EDC: ESEE-4, Wave-2, Emerson N-SAR, Silky 130 Pocket Boy, (2) constrained Bics with T-Rex tape, ferros, about 50' milspec 550, SAK Ranger, PJCB, a good sized piece of fat wood, Elzetta Charley, mini mag light (medical pen light) and a Heat Sheet.

The only thing I want to grab, assuming I'm alone (God forbid otherwise), is a vapor proof bag (tethered bright color/SOLAS tape 360/buoyance) containing warm clothes, Gore, MSR Pocket Rocket/fuel/pot/brew kit/water, better med kit and a Wiggy's 0 rated sleeping bag, foam pads, air activated hot packs and a bivi sack (self Rx. immersion hypothermia management kit). Thoughts?

Nobody that I have found, is talking about this, and from what I've read, BOB's, GHB's, INCH bags don't address this; in a vehicle, did you survive the crash, are you unconscious, are you injured, are you alone in the car, what is necessary to extricate yourself from the car. Nothing attached to you should be buoyant, while your in the car, complicates/prevents getting out, how deep are you, can you hold your breath that long, how are you going to deal with the 1-2 minutes of cold shock, gasping? Ok you got to the surface, or maybe you started there, less the 70 degree water, your on the clock, less then 55 degree water you need to get out ASAP. Most people in these scenarios that die, don't get a chance to die from hypothermia, they die from aspirating water, and drown. The other aspect of cold shock is older folk, or people with heart problems or other co morbidities, can develop lethal heart arrhythmias, and die. But nobodies talking about it, there's no primer, it's all pass/fail and most people that find themselves in this predicament don't even have the advantage of the lady in the water in Capt. Sullys Miracle on the Hudson. Middle aged blond lady, in a short sleeved white top, there amongst the ice islands in her PFD, the expression on her face, totally spaced out, flailing her arms aimlessly, for something to latch onto. Without her PFD, she would have died, even with the PFD, if rescue had not been at hand, she would have died. She never anticipated swimming in the Hudson, most people won't have the PFD, won't be clothed much better, and rescue might be a while comming. Take care.

Regards, Jim
Posted by: chaosmagnet

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 01:49 AM

A couple thoughts.

You're probably not going to wear flotation gear, a dry suit, or anything intended for in-the-water cold protection, while you're driving.

While my emergency kit includes a minimal capability to throw a line to someone in the water, you probably don't want to keep a throw bag within arm's reach in the car. I think the utility of a throw bag is very limited. For it to make sense, one would need:

  • To go in the water by accident
  • To be sufficiently uninjured to use a throw bag
  • To be close enough to shore to have a chance to throw it far enough
  • To have a sufficiently good throwing position to throw it a useful distance (meaning, at least one arm free, and preferably standing at least partially above the water)
  • For someone to be there who is able and willing to pull you to shore
  • And for all these things to happen when you can't swim to shore


I'm not saying it can't happen, but I do think it's better to spend my limited funds, weight and especially space on something else.

I keep a Leatherman Raptor, which cuts seatbelts and breaks car windows, in the center console where it can't get out of arm's reach for me in the driver's seat. That was an inexpensive tool to buy and almost unnoticeably small. I suspect it's more likely that I'll use it to help someone else than to help myself.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 03:13 AM

When I was at the top of my scuba diving game, a free ascent from 80 feet deep would have been incredibly daunting. Such a maneuver after an accidental immersion would be very dicey indeed - very low odds of success.

+1 to previous comments.

Avoid entering the water in the first place.
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 03:43 AM

Gents, thanks for the time and reading my missive.
The one thing that all of these incidents have in common, is that they are involuntary.

What about the 80' free ascent is "daunting"? Air, decompression? The plan is if on the bottom, wheels down, sideways or up, to exit the vehicle, probably already breathing off the "spare air", and activate the vest. Problematic from your perspective? If so please elaborate. Never dived, closest I get is mask snorkel and fins. Always interested in a better option, but I cant hold my breath that long, and if the other option is drowning...

Throw bags, Point taken, but this particular bag was chosen for it's size and it throws well. Just too good a opportunity to be unable to exploit. Two regular throw bags in the trunk. As always, no guarantees. Thanks again.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 04:24 AM

Breathing compressed air at depth (I assume that is the case with your spare air container; Frankly, I am not familiar with the appliance). Be sure and keep an open airway and exhale continuously as the compressed air in your lungs expands; otherwise you are virtually DOA when you arrive topside.

The previous post gives good info on the problems with using a throw bag while in the water. I have used various kinds extensively in swift water rescue and I always had one aboard my kayak when pleasure paddling. They are a great tool when you have a solid stance.

Good for you in thinking about this difficult problem, but I am not sure your proposals are likely to be workable.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 04:45 AM

A car doesn’t go straight to 80’, if it did you wouldn’t survive the initial impact. Have a tool available to break the window next to you, and get out and up to the surface. Forget the spare air, unless you are wearing it in a survival vest as I wore when flying, you’ll probably drown looking for it - time is precious. If the water is very cold, make sure you go into the water where first responders are readily available. Even then it might not help.
Air Florida Flight 90, WA DC, Feb. 1982
Lots of people around who could do very little to help due to ice in the river. It’s preferable to get real wet when the weather is warm.
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 05:02 AM

Gents, Thanks again!

Spare Air (www.spareair.com) designed for divers for out of air emergencies. HEED helicopter emergency egress device. For getting out of submerged aircraft, extrapolated by me to submerged vehicles. Attached to my vest. Rip shears and window punch secured on drivers side visor and vest. Thanks for the tip on exhaling completely on assent. I didn't know that. See ignorance can kill you.

Unworkable? Please elaborate. As above, always looking for better options. Thanks again.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 12:10 PM

Rather than air in a can you may or may not have readily available, this is another area where practice and skill plays a major role.
How I Learned to Hold My Breath for 4 Minutes
Posted by: Tjin

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 02:32 PM

I would say, invest in a good escape tool and training.

I have trained with the helicopter ditch simulater in a pool and trained in a car mounted on a cradle they could turn around. it gives you new perspective on what is needed.

I have a blanket and towel in the car, but I don't expect to get it out of the trunk if my car is in the water.

Some tips on escape tools:
- Must be able to grab it from your seat
- Must have a proper mount, that stays in place
- Big and brightly colored

For the window part:
- Simple escape hammers with no moving parts; a good one is reliable (super cheap ones might fall apart), but once underwater it's hard to get a good swing.
- Centrepunch based rescue tools have a spring that can fail, but doesn't require a swing. Do put it in the corner and do use it with force.


For the seatbelt with V-cutters, do the following for best results (in my experience anyways):
- Pull the belt tight
- Cut at a 45 degree angle.
Posted by: Montanero

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 02:53 PM

As Tjin said, your window breaking tool must be mounted in such a way that it will stay in place during a crash (an in this case possibly turning upside down). You must be able to reach it from your seat, find it in the dark and use it. Laying it in the console or dash means you will lose it in a crash.

In your scenario, you have crashed through a barrier, entered the water, it is cold, you are upside down, maybe injured. You may also be stunned or in shock, you may have others in the car with you. The initial crash has knocked the breath out of you. It is dark and you do not even know which way is up at first. The other people are flailing their arms and legs, if they are conscious, and you can't communicate with them.

That is what you are likely to have to deal with.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 03:28 PM

Helicopter Aircrew Breathing Device (H.A.B.D.)
Quote:
... the H.A.B.D. is intended for use only as an emergency device to assist aircrew members or passengers in making an emergency egress from a submerged aircraft. Due to its limited air volume, it is not intended for use while scuba diving or egressing from depths greater than 45 ft / 13.7 m.

Before using the H.A.B.D., it is important to receive in-water survival training which simulates an emergency egress situation. you must also learn basic principals and tech- niques for breathing compressed air underwater. Use of the H.A.B.D. without proper training is dangerous and can result in serious injury or death. ...


The last time I went through water survival we had classroom instruction on the H.E.E.D.; I thought I’d actually get training in the pool with one — nope, classroom familiarization only. However, were I to just buy one, I would get training on its use and LIMITATIONS.
Posted by: NAro

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 03:57 PM

OK, I'm a bit confused. Is it your intent to don/attach the gear only when crossing a body of water (each bridge, for instance)... or to wear/attach it all the time? I can't particularly argue with your specified load-out, but conceptually I have a hard time conceiving ever loading myself down like this.

I'm going to trust a glass breaker/seat belt cutter, and take my chances on the remainder. My fear is to get my emergency gear on my person somehow "hung up" preventing my safe extraction. That happened to me in a rafting situation (emergency kit in waist pack hung up) so I'm never going to load myself beyond what fits in pants pockets.
Posted by: Herman30

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 04:01 PM

Seems to me it is too much hussle to prepare for the extremely small chance of driving into the water. I would rather concentrate on how to drive safely past that reservoir.
Posted by: NAro

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 04:01 PM

NO. Dangerous advice. At anything other than just below the surface the air in your trapped car or your lungs has been compressed to sufficient degree that you are likely to get an embolism if you hold your breath. You have to gently blow out...not hold your breath... as you surface.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 04:10 PM

Checking out the HEED-3 website, I ran across the following testimonial from a diver involved in a vehicle extrication following an accident similar to the one contemplated in this thread. It shows the difficulties and complexities involved in such a situation:




"On February 12, 2002 myself and two other divers from my rescue company responded to a single motor vehicle accident that ended in a water rescue and subsequent recovery effort by our dive crew. Without notice the aft most heaving cable broke loose from its turnbuckle and like a pendulum struck my tank just above the valve stem shearing the 1st stage regulator from the tank valve and pinning me against one of the dock pilings between the van. I managed to wrestle my spare air bottle free. We carry our Spare Air bottles in a piggyback sleeve mounted on our tank closest to our back. Not knowing where my partner was due to the disorientation and shear terror of the blow and quick trip through the murky water and no communication possible without my mask in place, I decided to head up in case the second shackle let loose and pinned me to the bottom. Being @ more than 100 feet, I didn't know what my air supply would be like for my assent and I was breathing like a vacuum cleaner, sucking back air like a rookie! Despite a couple of bruised ribs, stitches and minor concussion, I came though this ordeal relatively unharmed and ALIVE!"

Note that this experienced and qualified diver was "breathing like a vacuum cleaner" in this situation....
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 05:02 PM

Thank you for the responses. As stated, if the other option is drowning, just about anything is a better option. This is pass/fail, every step of the way, without any guarantees under the best of circumstances.

Nothing pertaining to this is in the trunk. Was looking at an Estwing rock hammer, big, heavy, gross motor skills compatible, probably effective, but sorely in need of bomb proof lock down, I do not want this thing flying around the interior of the car in a roll over. And yes, locks on consoles and glove boxes, do fail, unless locked, but I don't want to have to fiddle with keys, under these circumstances, so an accessible yet secure option needs to be found. For now, window punch and Rip shears (www.ripshears.com) are secured in Molle loops on drivers side visor with orange 550 loops and is duplicated on the PFD.

Center punches (aka window punches) General Tools makes a punch that you just put on the window and push, it has adjustable tension/force, and at some point, it trips and breaks the window. Steel construction, with replaceable tips, kept well greased, but it is smaller and not gross motor compliant. Snap On and Rescue Tool Man, both make spring punches, hold the hardened point against the glass, pull back the spring, and release, breaking the glass, I've used both, and they work as advertised, but neither is a hammer. Just an aside, none of the above, save for maybe the hammer, work for the windshield, or for vehicles with Lexan (plastic) side and rear windows.

Education: I hear there is a school in Groton CT., that teaches such, may have to look into it. As always, knowledge before toys.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 05:08 PM

Your post took me back to the OP and I had thoughts along the lines of what was the cause of death in those recoveries... Were they conscious long enough to get out but just couldn’t egress; were they unconscious after making contact with the water at very high speed; or did the victims die on impact with the water? You have to be conscious and physically able to egress or spare air can only delay the inevitable.

IMO focus here should be on egress, getting physically clear of the car/truck.
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 05:39 PM

Yes to all of the above. As stated, did I survive the impact, am I unconscious, hence likely toast, am I injured, curtailing/preventing my ability to self extricate, can I breath, or am I holding my breath all the way down and then all the way back up, can I do that, or will I drown. Do I have a PFD on, needs to be manually inflating, in fact anything attached to me has to be neutrally buoyant, or it can inhibit extrication. How am I managing cold shock, have I aspirated water, where's rescue, how am I clothed, where's shore...All pass/fail without guarantees. Qne can only do the best they can, but to me, doing nothing is unacceptable. And I would replicate all the above in my wife's and kids cars, but they won't have it, and I don't have any grand kids in my car, yet. I can only imaging the average person in this kind of situation, they have no clue, and would most probably die, from one cause or another.
Posted by: Tjin

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: aligator


Center punches (aka window punches) General Tools makes a punch that you just put on the window and push, it has adjustable tension/force, and at some point, it trips and breaks the window. Steel construction, with replaceable tips, kept well greased, but it is smaller and not gross motor compliant. Snap On and Rescue Tool Man, both make spring punches, hold the hardened point against the glass, pull back the spring, and release, breaking the glass, I've used both, and they work as advertised, but neither is a hammer. Just an aside, none of the above, save for maybe the hammer, work for the windshield, or for vehicles with Lexan (plastic) side and rear windows.




centerpunches sold as tools to punch a dimple in metal, for you to start drilling are poor choice. No mount, too small/needs bigger handle (shaky adrenaline hands!), poorly visible.

Important note; centre punches and rescue hammer do not work on laminated glass. If i remember correctly pretty much all north american cars from 2017 or later have laminated side windows (and all cars have laminated windscreens).
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 06:40 PM

Another vote for the rock hammer, with or without the saw.
Posted by: Ian

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 06:57 PM

I have been told the support rods of a car headrest are designed to break the car's side windows. I have never tried.

I have been through the Royal Navy helicopter escape trainer (the Dunker) and also a good few submarine escape trials. You really haven no time or energy for anything fancy.

Ask your local fire service what they use to break glass.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 07:23 PM

Question, because I don’t know the answer. After a car fills with water and the pressure equalizes, can the windows simply roll down as they would in air? Being a dinosaur, my car has manual crank windows, but are electric windows sealed such that they would still function? Curious minds...

That said, in my mind and from what I recall in training, getting clear of an aircraft or in this case car is primary, after that’s been accomplished, getting to the surface is a matter of holding one’s breath. 80’ — freedivers go much deeper and then return to the surface. IIRC you need to be conscious on the surface without assistance for the dive to count.

As I so fondly (sarc) remember from training for my water survival cert., getting comfortable underwater is a process. For me it was slowly and then all at once. I trained by swimming underwater, before one cert, I did two lengths (one lap) in a 25 yard pool (50 yards total) underwater. With that under my belt, I was able to sit in my seat and watch the other participants scramble for the exit before I released my harness and swam out (just a few seconds later). With a little training, being comfortable underwater allows you to take a few precious moments and this is where the idea of “Slow Is Smooth And Smooth Is Fast” comes in. $.02
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 08:03 PM

*THREAD DRIFT* I know what a SARC is, Thankyou. I advocate for medics, PJ's, 18-D's and SARC's, because there is no civilian analog, especially SARCS, for what you've been doing, including MD, to (if they want) be licensed to practice CONUS/OCONUS, basically unlimited, being able to treat based on patient needs/condition. Yous are a resource we cannot afford to waste. Once the licensure happens, make the education and license/practice available to us. Sign me up!

Electric windows typically don't work with wet circuits, so too electrical door locks. With training/"experience", keep the seat belt on until the vehicle "settles", roll down windows, unlock doors, ASAP, manage air bags if deployed, exit vehicle. The same mechanisms that disable vehicles when the attempt too deep a puddle, apply in submersions. Manual windows and locks, in this scenario, is a good thing
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 08:11 PM

Electric windows are supposed to work for a while after the car begins to submerge. Saltwater may short the circuites more quickly.
It is recommended to immediately start rolling down the windows, when the car hits the water. That allows to escape sooner.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 08:27 PM

(Sarc) meant my fondness was sarcasm — I do remember the training & cert, but not with fondness. My last cert was a real workout; I was the sole participant and the trainers/safety swimmers kept me moving from one qual/demonstration to the next for about an hour straight. Fortunately no dunker, just an underwater obstacle course of sorts. Fun (again, sarcastically).
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/02/18 08:59 PM

post deleted
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/04/18 03:33 AM

Anything further? Am I missing anything? Would yous suggest a different approach?
I will probably grow old er, and never involuntarily get my feet wet, but one thing I live by, never ever say never. Those folks in the crash in DC, never in their wildest dreams anticipated, swimming in a frozen Potomac that day. If they had they wouldn't have been there, no sane person would. The crew couldn't help them, for a while the rescue agencies couldn't help them, and by that time, it was largely body recoveries. I don't think most rescue agencies carry immersion suits (or ice diving setups either and that might be a really useful option) on their rigs regularly during the winter, so if/when God forbid it happened again, the results would likely be pretty much the same. I can't legislate change in the FAA, the shipping industry, or even the NFPA, but there has to be something better out there, between total ignorance/helplessness, and "wear your PFD" and adequate education as to the realities, and possible efficacious options. I've never found another aspect of survival, that has so many "choke points", and the fact that nobody, that I know of, is linking the very limited study of cars in the water, or vehicles of all descriptions, submerged, with the much larger body of knowledge of immersion hypothermia is reprehensible. Even if you can get out of the car/plane/train/boat/bus, doesn't begin to guarantee a happy ending, and as above, most people drown, before they succumb to hypothermia. As stated, sometimes a PFD, just makes you easier to find. There has to be a better option

Regards, Jim
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/04/18 04:09 AM

Nothing says every situation is survivable. In the situation you propose, there are many factors weighing against a successful outcome. We haven't even discussed the high likelihood of fatal outcomes simply due to the very cold water temperature - one source I consulted mentioned death occurring within five to ten minutes in 30ish degree water in many (not all!) subjects.

A lot of uncontrollable variables at play and definitely no recommended, "safe" solution. A worthwhile subject that has generated constructive posts.

I would not want to be in a submerged vehicle 80 feet deep, struggling to get out of the vehicle. i would definitely be in over my head, as they say....
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/04/18 04:16 AM

But there is something in me that says, never give up, there are always options, there is always a solution. And the sucky statistics demand better. Anybody ever involved in Fire/PD/EMS/SAR, will tell you, that frequently, we get to save people from themselves, but sometimes not soon enough.
The people that find themselves in these situations, aren't there voluntarily, they most certainly aren't there by choice, THEY ARE JUST THERE, wrong place, wrong time, and almost without exception, if they don't/can't rescue themselves, they won't survive long enough to be rescued by others.
Posted by: roberttheiii

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/04/18 06:26 PM

I honestly think the best thing you can do for a sudden immersion in a "low risk" (not driving on ice...) automobile is to be mentally and physically (more on this later) prepared for the situation.

This guy didn't do anything crazy (though didn't have to contend with windows) and made it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D5PRDQPMOE

So I'd be sure to be aware, physically fit, and very comfortable in the water (do some scuba diving or snorkeling). If you can, take a ride in a tank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad_8-RVIy4w

People can technically go into 30 degree water and make it out, and if you run back to the road and get in a warm car in your underwear, you'll probably be OK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF1V8HFfpTE


This assumes you make it out of the sinking car though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIx719_oer0

Something like this is always a good idea: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073J92G1J/ref...59-01df5dfa83f2

I personally probably would not carry a kit like the one you contemplate. At most, if I was driving on a frozen lake, I'd keep my windows open and my spareair handy.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/04/18 06:53 PM

Thanks, good demo on the Mythbusters youtube video. Another good video links from there — Escape a Car Underwater
What I liked about that video is they discuss and then demo the physics of opening a door underwater and during one exercise they fail and go to the air regulator. They also demo a window punch to shatter the driver side window, thus immediately equalizing pressure and the door opens.
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/04/18 09:22 PM

I already have window punches, in Molly loops on the drivers side visor, and on the vest, but in the video, he had gone through the evolution several times, so he had some familiarity or a comfort level, he knew what to expect, kind of, and he already had it in his hand. In EMS and Fire Rescue, I have them in my scissors pouch and turnout pants pocket. We're using it from the other side of the equation, "controlled" patient access and extrication, not inside the car filling with water. I'm thinking the rock hammer, or like, is more gross motor skill, catacholimine soaked compatable? I found a mount that I think will keep it secure in a roll over, (only one way to find out, and I don't want to be that sure), yet easy-ish access. Combined with a military Rescue Tool 511 600 524 6924, with duess (?) key, basicly about a foot long, T ish handle, with a V on the other end with replaceable V blades at the apex. Lite enough to be secured with velcro, stupid simple enough to work. ( the one Colonial Knives sells is made in the PRC, I'd rather have US made, if possible, sources?) Secured to the console by my right knee, and as they aren't vest-able, the rip shears and window punch remain on the vest as back up. Make sense?

Regards, Jim

ETA: Just FYI, incase yous don't already know, but as the dude in the video discovered, that with that particular design of punch, your hands tends to follow the punch through the glass leading to cut hands. Gloves should be used. Also, in more terrestrial environs, dust masks and glasses/goggles should be worn by rescuers and patients (assuming the patients are not on non rebreathers already) when we pop windows, as glass fragments can be aerosolized, and you do not want to breath them, or get them in your eyes. This is espicially true when sawing the windshield. JMH
Posted by: Russ

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/04/18 09:58 PM

What makes sense to me is a device inside the vehicle that doesn’t require a swing to strike the glass, such as a hammer would require. One of the spring loaded window punches makes more sense; press against the glass, the spring is activated and shatters the (non-laminated) glass. I have a Resqme Seatbelt Cutter and Window Glass Breaker dressed in yellow inside the car and another on my keyring. Break the glass and either open the door to swim out or go through the now open window (with increased risk of laceration).

In one run-thru in the video link I posted above they also started opening the door immediately on water entry which might work depending on the vehicle and mindset of the individual. Things go wrong at the worst possible time and the door not wanting to open after you are submerged would be typical... If the door won’t open on the surface, I’d immediately shift to breaking the glass.
Posted by: aligator

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/04/18 10:06 PM

Murphy. Just my experience, with the key ring things with the window punch and webbing cutter, I tested the punch against the sole of my boot, just to see if it would work, the thing fell apart. As always, your mileage may vary, and use what works for you.
Thanks, Jim
Posted by: Tjin

Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit - 12/05/18 07:19 AM

I had a resqme with a spring failure. It just started to rattle, because the spring was loose. Tested it; no tension, nothing.

That why i got both simple hammer and a spring loaded window punch.