"shirt & tie" PSKs

Posted by: Craig

"shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/28/03 08:19 PM

For those of you who work in offices where you have to dress up, in a shirt and tie, for instance, how do you carry your PSKs and what do you have in them? I know there have been discussions about this in the past, but I have been unable to find any archives of such threads. You obviously could not take a fanny pack, even a nice black leather one, into a meeting without being noticed.
Posted by: Tjin

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/28/03 08:53 PM

here are some posts:


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/28/03 10:07 PM

When searching the archives remember to set your search criteria to include posts from all dates. The default in the search form is to search only posts from the past week.
Posted by: Casual_Hero

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/28/03 11:18 PM


Here's something I posted a while back:

Here are my contents for a discreet urban survival kit that you can get away with in an office environment:

Urban Kit

Tobacco tin
6 feet of quality tape to seal tin
2 1/4" blade folding locknife with built-in red LED light (Whitby Firefly)
Turboflame Windproof Lighter
Mini Cyba-lite LED flashlight
3 Starlite SL3 6mmx 50mm fishing lure lightsticks (last 12 hours each)
Fox 40 whistle
Mini slotted / cross head screwdriver
Small pair Scissors
Small pair tweezers
2 Scalpel Blades
12 assorted adhesive plasters
4 Paracetamol / Codeine tablets
4 Piriton Antihistamine tablets
2 Alcohol free cleansing wipes
Sewing kit (2 needles, 4 safety pins, 4 hanks of thread, 2 buttons, 1 press-stud)
Suunto Clipper Mini Compass
Small magnifying lens
Small pencil
10 mini fluorescent Post-It Notes

Compare, contrast and discuss! All feedback welcome!!

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/29/03 01:12 AM

This is what I wear to the office in a suit

First choose your suit with capacity in mind - pleated slacks and full-cut jacket with matching inner breast pockets.

Front pant's pockets:
I carry two altoids tins: first is a standard cord-wrapped psk. second is a FAK. FAK contains siscors, tweezers, safety razors, Xacto blades, ibuprofen, bandaids, moleskin, adhesive tape, magnifying lens, antibiotic cream, CPR shield, gloves, LCD thermometer, and a few other things that I cannot remember off the top of my head. I also carry a lighter, and small pocket knife here.

Back pant's pockets:
Wallet with Brunton survival cards and the other usual stuff on one side and an equally thick flat bundle of nylon twine - 100' or so.

Inner chest pockets of jacket
Write in Rain notepad and space pen and small digital voice recorder capable of 90 min capacity on one side. PDA on the other.

Inner waist pockets of jacket
lighter on one side and compass on the other

Keychain, leatherman and cell phone ride the belt. the leatherman and the cell phone ride on the hip and are not easily visible while the jacket is on. The keychain is stylish accessory and keys hang into front pocket discreetly hiding the fact that they carry a swiss-key, swiss tool, bisons whistle, bison capsule, and asp saphire light.

All of this carries pretty much undetected. while I am standing with the jacket on the only thing that is occasionally visible is the stylish accessory of the key chain fob. My garishly stylish tie usually steals the show though. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/29/03 03:13 AM

I too work in the suit and tie business world. I carry this daily.
Keychain: Mini Mag Lite, Bar Creek 2" Blade Lockback, Timber Creek Whistle/Led Flashlight with Mini Bic Lighter zip tied to it.
Left Front Pants Pocket: Keychain, Kershaw Liner knife, Leatherman wave.
Right Front Pants Pocket: Kel-Tec P-11 14 oz. 9 mm pistol in Don Hume pocket holster, extra mag.
Left rear pocket: Altoids PSK
Right rear pocket: Wallet
Zippered DayRunner contents: TV/Weather/AM-FM Radio, 2 contractor trash bags, 2 3M N-95 masks, foam ear plugs, flourescent orange flat duct tape, pepper spray, 2 bandanas, 50 feet paracord wrapped on cardboard of notepad, 100 feet Spectra Kite line, Bottle Potable Aqua, Planters Peanut Bar, mini multi tool, large multi tool, lockback knife, 1 signal flare, 1 glowstick, large Bic Lighter, waterproof matches, whistle, mini air horn, AA Flashlight, 36 inches snare wire, 1 oven bag, bandaids, Motrin & Tylenol, pictures of family, phone cards, cash, 2 pens, pencil, zip ties, metal clip fasteners, large rubber bands, emergency numbers, calculator, spare charged cel-phone battery.
Larger items are secured with velcro - nothing falls out when opened. Also carry burgandy handled portfolio - usually holds business papers, Dayrunner, sports bottle of water, playing cards, HD aluminum foil, more N95 masks, foam ear plugs, and other survival items. Regards, Keys
Posted by: jet

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/29/03 07:19 AM

Hi Craig,

Well, I guess by my own definitions, I don't carry a PSK (Personal (or Pocket) Survival Kit) on a daily basis. I think of my PSK more as something I add when going out of doors a way. It may be simply semantics, but I tend to refer to the stuff I always have on me as my EDC (Every Day Carry) gear. My "Business Dress" EDC is the same as my "Casual Dress" EDC. I just keep it in my pockets. I'm currently carrying just a bit less than I used to. None of it shows.

Front Left Pants Pocket:
Bic or Cricket mini disposable butane lighter
Leatherman Squirt P4 mini multi tool
Wallet w/ all the extra stuff I carry in it
cell phone
This sounds like a lot, but the lighter & multi tool go side by side in the bottom of my pocket, with the wallet & phone side by side on top of them. Once I put everything in, they stay organized and create a flat profile.

Front Right Pants Pocket:
ASP "Palm Defender" pepper spray (smaller than "Key Defender")
Keyring w/ white Photon II LED flashlight & Acme "Tornado" whistle
loose change

Rear left Pants Pocket:
Checkbook w/ all the extra stuff I carry in it
Spyderco Police model pocket knife (fully serrated - a weapon, not a tool)

Rear Right Pants Pocket:
Schedule Book w/ all the extra stuff I carry in it
Fisher "Bullet" model Space Pen

"Extra stuff" mentioned above include extra cash & card carried not just in wallet, extra checks carried not just in checkbook, Brunton survival cards w/ brightly colored ribbons (for signalling) & safety pins, some small misc. first aid supplies, plastic fresnel lens, laminated information card w/ personal & medical data & phone numbers for myself & loved ones (in case I'm injured, sick or otherwise unconscious) & an unlubricated condom in an Extra Strength Anacin travel tin. This last I'll put in a watch pocket or one of my front pockets. I wear a braided leather belt which can have the buckle cut off and be unbraided for emergency cordage.

All of my jackets & coats have a small bottle of lotion, a tube of lip balm, a cheap disposable rain poncho, some Grabber "MyCoal" heating pads & a heat reflecting aluminized mylar blanket stuffed into their various pockets.

I really like KeysBear's idea of creating a PSK in a zippered day planner. If it's been mentioned before, I don't remember it. That's clever and useful for environments where a book bag, back pack or shoulder pack just wouldn't maintain the expected professional decorum. You could keep it in a desk drawer or out on a shelf or desktop. You could carry it in a briefcase or just by itself. I like that idea a lot. (Thanks, KB.)

Stay safe,
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/31/03 08:11 PM

Very cool. Thanks man. How did you find them? I was unable to.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 03/31/03 08:59 PM

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate it. I have something to work toward.
Posted by: Eugene

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 02:53 AM

When I was working in a shirt and tie environment, I found it easier to hid things in pockets. I was in IT so a Leatherman on the belt was a common thing, but everything else went in pockets. I found some dress pants with deep pockets that had some elactic type stuff that held them tight on the leg so I went and bought a bunch more. Now I work in a casual IT shop where we wear jeans and the tight pockets of jeans can't hold near as much stuff, so I'm starting to get the 'Bat Belt' thing goign on <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 06:04 AM

What exactly are you aiming to survive with this gear?

Sorry if i offend anyone BUT a small folder will not dig you out of a crumpled building BUT i also accept a flashlight and a whistle would help!!!

So surely the answer is in our hands

a small flahlight-a small maglite/proton
a swiss card/tool logic card/micra for small tasks around the office
a whistle-fox 40 or storm

Isn't it that simple!

All them items mentioned could easily be distributed without anyone noticing-put them in different pockets!

Posted by: Tjin

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 08:48 AM

keyword: executive <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: THIRDPIG

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 02:21 PM

One thing that works well to hold small things and not get much notice is an eye glass case.I have a hard padded one from the dollar store,rounded corners made to carry with comfort in mind.

Holds more and longer things than an Altiods tin,easy pocket carry and blends in just fine.

A small folder can help a lot in a highrise,I use mine quite a bit to slide back the latches on doors.I'm sure all the stairway doors lock from the stairways on every floor except the ground floor where you work as this is sop in most buildings,but sometimes you may have to exit at another floor.Also there is often passageways with locked doors used by maintainance etc. they may be a better way out or around something.There are also underground parking lots that are for the "bigwigs" to use that have locked doors that may also provide a better way out.you may be surprized how easy it is to slide the latch back on these doors with a folder and get out.
Posted by: gulliamo

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 04:40 PM

I partially agree. Most items do not need to be directly on you. Most just need to be handy. Many are not needed at all.

Fish hooks and storm matches may be of little value below 72nd St. But a couple of bandaids and Tylenol in a small FAK, spare Metrocard, and emergency cash may be of great importance. A safety pin might be nice if you pop a button. As well as the whistle, small knife and photon. An evacu-8 hood might serve one well also.

Most of these items can be left in a briefcase until needed. You probably wont need that asprin immediately.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 07:39 PM

Thanks man. I LOVE gear lists. While looking for work, it's a cheap way to entertain oneself.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 07:45 PM

My interview suit fits me like a glove. Frown. I'll have to give this some thought.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 07:48 PM

I probably won't be in IT with my next job. Programming has collapsed in my area. Now I'm aiming for technical editing. Can't justify a Leatherman if I'm doing that.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 07:50 PM

If the building collapses I'm dead. I just like to feel that I'm reasonably prepared.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 07:51 PM

It was that simple? Sigh.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 07:57 PM

If you wear dress trousers, how can you fit a Leatherman Wave in your front pocket without it pulling your pants down or just feeling plain bulky?
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 08:03 PM

I am envious and curious. Where do you work that you gotta carry a pistol?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 08:15 PM

Programming has pretty much collapsed everywhere... ever since the "dot-com" bubble bursted. Lots of experienced programmers out there, but not so many jobs. <img src="images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Technical editing, eh? Is there good money in that?

If I were just starting over again, I think civil engineering might be a good field at this time. I think Iraq is gonna need a lot of new roads and bridges in the next few years. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 08:53 PM

Divide your pocket into 2 vertical compartments using a safety pin or needle & thread. Size the outside compartment (near the pant's seam) such that the tool stands on end. Makes it nearly invisible.

Someone else on this board recommended this in the past. I'm simply parroting a good idea that works well. (It was CastAway2 in this thread.)

Posted by: frenchy

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 09:28 PM

"Can't justify a Leatherman if I'm doing that. "

IMHO, ANY job can justify a Leatherman ..... <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

If I should keep only one "harware" item on me, it would be a Leatherman. And if need be, use a spectacle-case, riding on my belt, to make it less obvious.
(someone on this forum suggested to use such a case as a PSK container ... very good idea !! I will have to look into it ...).

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 09:32 PM

I also have to wear a tie to work. I like to keep my pocket knife with a clip in my front pocket, but not have the clip showing. To do this you can use a small safety pin pinned horizontally inside the pocket close to the outter seem. Then slide you knife clip through the pin and it will stand vertically in you pocket and be invisible. I have also sewn a small piece of cloth into some pockets (works great and you don't have to worry about washing it).

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/01/03 11:34 PM

I was trying so hard to give up this place - raises my blood pressure sometimes. Anyway, without being too specific - my work often involves site visits to commercial rental properties, sometimes in inner-city neighborhoods. Some of these areas in the past have erupted in street violence after unpopular court decisions, police shootings, and such. I feel more secure if having to wait for the motor club this way. Kel-Tec P-11 is a great inexpensive lightweight 9mm. From my experience it needs a little polishing out of the box with 600 grit sandpaper on the feed ramp and slide grooves plus a good breaking in of about 200 rounds. Has flawlessly fired 700 rounds since breaking in. Not a Glock, but half the price, and lighter than the compact Glock 26 which is 19.75 ounces compared to 14 ounces for the Kel-Tec. As for the Leatherman wave in my pocket - I'm just used to the weight. Wear a suit once a week, but mostly Dockers (deep pockets) and sports jackets. Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

A Fundamental Question - 04/02/03 05:07 AM

Is it truly always necessary to carry a personal survival kit? I work in DC. I'm in and out of government buildings, assuming I leave my building, which I rarely do. I go through security in all of these buildings. As it is, I'm having to remove ID, pager, and phone, before I go through security. I'm not carrying a Leatherman or an edged tool. I'm not carrying an Altoids can. I've got a BOB in the office, a mini kit in my truck at the office, and another BOB at home, under 15 miles by foot from the office.

I do carry cash, a pager, a cell phone, several calling cards (of various types for different purposes), and a handful of credit cards. I'm in an urban area and close to my residence. I ask in all sincerity, why do I need to carry more than that?

No ill will or negativity intended. I ask only to learn and be enlightened. . . . <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: jet

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/02/03 08:28 AM

Hi atty_guy,

Is it always necessary to carry a survival kit? No, of course not. It's only necessary when you find yourself in a survival situation. Of course, we never know when that is, but we can make realistic decisions based on realistic expectations.

I lived most of my life carrying only the "survival equipment" dictated by peaceful modern life ... money, ID, keys, etc. And I did quite well. I've had a nice life, primarily free from disaster or emergency. This is good, because I had no gear most of the time (and no training all of the time) and wouldn't have been able to do anything anyway. I gambled with my safety, as the majority of people do, mostly because it never occurred to me to do otherwise. And I was fine. (I got mugged once, but got through it well (though, at the time, I didn't feel that way).) This is how most people live, and most people live through each day pretty well.

Those of us who frequent this forum usually want more. We want to know we've done all we reasonably can ... at least for the time being ... to prepare for the various emergencies which we can see likely coming up in our diverse lives. We plan for what we may be able to do later, and for how our lives may change later. Many of us have aspirations for doing more as time goes by. What that means is, of course, different for each of us, because we are all so different from each other. What I need for my daily life may be quite different from what you or anyone else need(s) for your or their daily life. You, like each of us, have to decide what you want or may need to carry. (Your involvment here indicates you've spent a good investment of time and energy doing just that, and good for you.)

You probably don't need arial signal flares or smoke. You may not feel the need for a Leatherman. You may never be in any sort of breakdown of civil services. You may never be the victim of violence. You may never get caught in a burning building. You may not work in a high rise or may not feel the need to keep rapelling gear or a parachute under your desk. Perhaps you've never needed and never will need a SAM splint.

I don't carry a fire extinguisher in my day planner, nor a field surgery kit in my glasses case. I don't carry iodine tablets in my pocket all the time. I don't make sure I have a signal mirror on a lanyard around my neck when I drive down to the mall to go shopping. I don't sit with a shotgun in my lap when I watch TV. I don't make sure I have a dental hygiene kit secreted away somewhere in my suit when I go to work nor a wire saw carefully woven into my belt. Heck, I don't even carry a backpack.

I do carry more than you say you do, and I've had occasion to be quite thankful I did. I've also read others' lists of their EDC gear and wondered why they thought it was worth the hassle and if they ever really used any of that stuff. Some carry more, some carry less; it's all up to the individual. Thankfully, I haven't seen it much here at ETS, but I've seen two types of competitions at other sites. The first is "I carry more than you" and the second is "I carry less than you". They're both pretty counterproductive contests, IMO. We each decide for ourselves which kind and how much of what items we will pack or carry for each different environment we go out into each day. Hopefully, it is a conscious decision and not merely laziness making a default decision for us.

I'm comfortable with what I carrry, and I'm always reconsidering adding and subtracting items. It's an ongoing process. Reading back over your previous posts, you seem quite well prepared. You've placed useful gear in a number of logical locations, and continue to consider and reconsider your preparations. If you're comfortable with your work thus far, then you're set for now. You don't need to carry an Altoids Tin to the office and you're not any less cool than anyone else on the forum if you don't always have your Wave or Super Tool 200 on your belt. (FWIW, I don't.)

Just keep an open mind and pay attention to the environment around you. Neighborhoods change. So do lifestyles, personal attitudes and the world situation. Next year, you may encounter a situation where you will reallly wish you had a Photon II on your keychain, or a couple of extra checks kept somewhere other than your checkbook. Next month, a friend may successfully defend himself from a hostile dog with a pepper spray, and you may decide that it's worth keeping one on yourself whenever you can. You don't know now what you may feel later, so always keep reevaluating what you carry. See if you can find ever more convenient ways to carry it. The process never ends, so just enjoy it.

Stay safe,
Posted by: paramedicpete

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/02/03 02:23 PM

I would still carry a small (ARC-AAA/Photon) flashlight and a whistle on my person. They are unobtrusive and come in handy, especially the flashlight. If the lights go out for any reason, at least you have something immediately available or can use it to search the copier for that elusive sheet of jammed paper. The whistle in addition to alert someone you need assistance, can sometimes also chase away those who might mean you harm. Pete
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/02/03 03:13 PM

Well, I work in an office as a computer programmer. I also live in a town with a relatively low crime rate.

After 9/11, I got my pistol permit thinking I would only carry "now and then" only when the danger level seem high. Now I just carry all the time. Since then, the cell phone store next door has been robbed twice and we've had an attempted shooting at the fast food place 4 doors down. We also had a murder (shooting) last halloween in the neighborhood behind us.

Semper Paratus, right?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/02/03 03:30 PM

I go through security in all of these buildings. As it is, I'm having to remove ID, pager, and phone, before I go through security.

Perhaps you should consider a lifestyle/career/hometown change. It seems to me that this is your biggest problem. Only the foolish believe constantly patting down law-abiding citizens has a positive effect on terrorism, or crime in general.

I understand that you probably don't go along with that nonsense, but you condone it to some degree by going along with it... it should be your RIGHT to carry a Leatherman if you want, without feeling like its a burden or an extra hassle.

I think that the problem you have doesn't really have anything to do with equipment.

BTW, I don't carry all that stuff on my person either... but I certainly could if I foresaw the need at some point.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/02/03 04:36 PM

Very nicely stated.
Posted by: Anonymous

Exactly. . . . - 04/03/03 03:42 AM


Yours is a thoughtful post, in spite of the limitations of the written word on a cathode ray tube and the difficulties in undstanding tone and intent. You addressed my point: before blindly putting together a shirt-and-tie PSK, one should think about one really needs. Secondary, was my concern about the "I carry more" or "I carry less" viewpoints that miss the point of this website and preparedness in general.

I'm reminded of a well-known gun writer (no name mentioned) who was at a convention in Las Vegas. He was seen at the hotel pool with a gas mask bag and fanny pack. (Hell, I know that the commies have got some good missiles, but I didn't know that they could drop chem/bio on Vegas!) Even post-9/11, his preparedness was beyond what is appropriate, but he sure let everyone know that he was ready for anything, anytime, anywhere. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Being unprepared is also wrong. The question is what is the right level of preparedness. My work "world" is between the Potomac and the Capitol. If I can't get to my gear in my office or at my home or a government shelter . . . . well, absent a pocket time machine in an Altoids tin, I'm f****d. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If I can get to my gear or government shelter, I'm good-to-go. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> These are my realistic expectations and I've made a decision not to carry a PSK with me everywhere I go every day I'm at work. So, thank you for rising to my challenge to explain why a shirt-and-tie PSK is necessary, if at all.

One other thing: Paramedic Pete's advice was outstanding. I neglected to mention that I do cary a photon or ASP with me. I've thought about keeping a whistle on me as well. But not for assaults or robberies. . . . It's fight or flight, depending upon circumstances. No whistles! As well, I do occasionally carry a pocket knife too, when appropriate. . . .
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 04:50 AM

The key concept is "appropriate for the circumstances." Over the years, I find I feel comfortable carrying at least some sort of pocket knife (either SAK or L-tool), a small flashlight (mini-mag or photon), and varying amounts of first aid - I always carry a few bandaids in my wallet and scale up from there depending upon circumstances. When carrying minimal FAK,I always like to know where the big kit is. Sooner or later, you will need to know - case in point - I was at a big archeo meeting (in DC, as a matter of fact) presenting years of research at a big symposium. I heard a dull thud and there was my assistant and best friend in the troes of a grand mal seizure. Other less dramatic situations have occurred over the years, hence I always at least have a bandaid on me. The SAK came in handy because it saved steps and time in a wide variety of situations tightening screws and the like - often outdoors but useful even in office environments. Knowledge and skills are fortunately very lightweight and compact, but some tools are handy. My keychain has a SA Classic, a Photon II, and a whistle, my belt (usually) has a Leatherman. My wallet w/bandaids and a bandana stuffed in the other pocket make me ready for many of life's minor challenges. Scale up from there depending on the situation. But, no, you certainly don't have to cart the "approved stuff" everywhere you go. We all face different situations.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/03/03 01:25 PM

I don't know about good money, but I know I'm a good editor.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/03/03 01:39 PM

The spectacle case idea is a very good one. I'll have to look into it.
Posted by: Craig

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 01:52 PM

According to the long-timers here, yes. But what you carry depends on your personal comfort level and environment, too.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/03/03 01:55 PM

Computer programmer? Nice work if you can get it. That's what I used to do before I was laid off more than one year ago.
Posted by: Polak187

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/03/03 02:01 PM

Poland already grabbed/snatched/secured road and factory rebuilding contracts. Which means there's gonna be a lot of wavy roads in Iraq.

Posted by: Craig

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 02:09 PM

Do you carry your SAK or Leatherman in Washingon, D.C? Do The Powers That Be allow you to do that?
Posted by: Craig

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 02:11 PM

These days, your "right" is to do exactly what the big, serious-looking security guards tell you to.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 02:30 PM

I think that we might just be getting caught in the teminology on this one. A Personal Survival Kit (PSK) or a Pocket Survival Kit (PSK) is useful for getting you through what you might need to get through. For a parent with a <2 yr. old child a PSK must include diapers and wipes - certainly doesn't fit into an altoids kit! For an urban environment you most likely won't need any game harvesting equipment such as snares and fishing kit but you might have expanded needs for clothing maintenance. For example if you white shirt loses a button right before an important meeting or interview you want to fix it with matching color thread and matching button not a safety pin. Are these survival questions? I would say so. Having had a long unemployment and the financial consequences on my family recently I wouldn't want to lose a job opportunity due to something as small as a lost button or unfortunate coffee stain. OTOH, a stain removal stick or matching button kit wouldn't be necessary or helpful during a off-road 4X4 trip through the arizona desert.

The idea of staged supplies where the appropriate gear is appropriately available is a good one but leads to some redundancy. If you carry your gas mask and NBC suit with you then you don't need one at your desk, one in your car and another at home. Having a bunch of gear in your car in the parking garage next to the office building where you have a good gear set under your desk will do you no good if you are at a local dinner having lunch when both building collapse after a U-Haul filled with manure and Kerosene blows up in the alley between your office and the car-park. Even if your car isn't crushed you will be prevented from getting to it by the officials guarding the crime scene. If you think that such an event is possible and something that you want to prepare for then you will need a certain amount of stuff that is actually in your pocket with you in the dinner. The question then becomes, what do you want in your pockets in such an environment. This question is a valid one phrased as "Shirt and Tie PSK?" or "Urban PSK?" or "Office PSK?" or "Urban EDC? All of which have been asked repeatedly here and there are many good suggestions as to what to carry (liberally interspersed with grumbling about what the security officials will not permit).

This is a fruitful topic and I enjoy hearing others opinions. I am one who chooses to carry quite a lot of EDC, I commute for more than 1 hour through rural / suburban areas and work in IT so I don't need to wear a suit. BTW I also always park at the top of any car-park so that there is nothing to collapse onto my car and If possible I park in an open lot; habits such as this allow me a bit of security without requiring me to carry as much. My car-kit will not be crushed so I count on it being available at some point. Still vulnerable to a security lock-down around a crime scene.

I always find it more useful to pose a question such as this in terms of a specific scenario. That always focuses peoples attention. Once you have figured answers to many scenarios you will see the common tools which help with the most scenarios and be sure which you want to carry. Carrying something such as and Evacu-8 hood which is specific for fire situations with you all the time says something about your view of the relative likelyhood of such an event as opposed to some other event for which you have not chosen to carry equippement.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 02:51 PM

Wherever possible, I did. Naturally, there were restrictions - one can't carry a Leatherman into a Congressional Office Building or the Library of Congress, so I had to plan ahead. It is irritating to have to leave a useful tool behind, but look at it from the other side - I would wonder about a policy that admits sharp instruments into the LoC with its paintings and artwork. I believe I did carry my little SAK into these places.

I come from a generation in which every schoolboy carried a folding knife to school routinely - imagine that now! And I have flown on airlines with pistols in my carry on luggage - but don't get me started about the good old days...But one must remember, these aren't the good old days, this is now, and you have to adapt to, influence, change, and work with the present.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 04:19 PM

Yes, but its more than pining for the good ol' days. It about logic!

Just for the sake of argument, IF I decided to assasinate a senator in his office and IF I had managed to get an appointment, then I would go into the building with a plastic knife hidden in my underwear. I would go to the restroom and pull said knife and palm it. If I wanted to kill several senators, I would take out a cop or guard first and then use his sidearm. If someone were to outlaw plastic knives, I would buy any object made out of hard plastic I could find and a Dremel tool, them I would make my own. None of this requires any special training, and no security system could detect and stop it before hand. Intelligence/monitoring couldn't even stop it as long as I kept my mouth shut and didn't tell anyone what I was planning to do.

That's just one way, others have pointed out that any glass item of sufficient size (e.g. a bottle, a picture in a glass frame) could be used in the same way.

Taking knitting needles from old ladies ACCOMPLISHES NOTHING!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 04:33 PM

The idea of protective services is to reduce and manage risk. The thought that you could eliminate risk through any security system or any amount of training and personel armament is absurd. The attempt to remove weapons from a building is an attempt to make it more difficult for an "evil-doer" to accomplish his aims. If every potential political target were required to be prepared to defend themselves we wouldn't have need for a secret service man to gard senators, congressmen, cabinet members etc. because they would all be wearing side arms as would everyone else who worked for them. In this situation you might be allowed to enter the capitol buildings with whatever was in your pockets and it is reasonably certain that in such a situation there would be fewer individuals who would be silly enough to try something. OTOH, President Lincoln had training, and fire-power and security guards - look how well it protected him - in the good old days.

The issue here is not relative effectiveness of either scenario but rather the abridgement or perceived abridgement of our (americans) rights to walk about armed to the teeth. (something that few if any other countries see as reasonable or legal)

If you are attempting to reduce risk by disarming individuals who you don't trust then you will move in that direction until you are satisfied with the level of risk achieved. This may include body-cavity searches for potential C4 caches at some point. Currently it involves examining whatever makes the metal detector go beep, x-raying things that you don't and occasionally patting down "suspiscious individuals"

Given the intelligence of some of our elected officials I am not sure that I want them carrying handguns into the capitol buildings or anywhere else in an effort to secure themselves from attack. Rather have trained individuals who have no political clout simply keeping the peace. Odd how anti-gun activists are happy to have gun toting individuals protect them. That particular pathology cuts accross all political and geographical and time boundaries. Pacifists have always lived peacefully only where others are willing to take up arms to enforce the peace.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 06:29 PM

The issue here is not relative effectiveness of either scenario but rather the abridgement or perceived abridgement of our (americans) rights to walk about armed to the teeth. (something that few if any other countries see as reasonable or legal)

I agree, this is indeed the issue, but:

- Is carrying a leatherman or a Swiss army knife being "armed to the teeth"?

- Does it matter what other countries think about this issue? Our country/culture has been very successful historically, whether that does or doesn't have anything to do with the right to keep and bear arms, I don't know. But curtailing my personal rights because thats the way others do it, is not a valid argument in my mind. Others take 60% of your income in taxes, torture you and your family if you disagree with them, or sell you into slavery if you break any of their myriad laws. I'm not going for any of those options either.

- Its not a "perceived" abridgement, its a real abridgement. Anything that restricts what you can do is an abridgement by definition.

- Finally, I understand that people shouldn't be allowed to carry sniper rifles into the viewing gallery of the Senate floor. I understand why you might not want sharp objects, or even food and drink for that matter, around antique books and paintings. I just think we're going a little crazy with all this "homeland security" business. If a senator that wants to be "in touch with the people" is willing to shake my hand, then I will be able to kill him whether he is packing or has a Secret Service agent standing right beside him. My life may also be forfeit, but I could do it. And you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out a way.

I think we're dealing with terrorism the right way over in Iraq right now. But this other stuff is just taking away our rights and accomplishing nothing... except maybe to make certain uninformed people feel better about the situation.

If we give up our rights and change our cultural norms because of a few terrorist, haven't we capitulated to them on some level? And THAT's what bothers me more than removing my pocket knife when I go to the courthouse.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Exactly. . . . - 04/03/03 07:33 PM


I've read this thread with great interest ("urban" or "suburban" survival kits always evoke some interest on my part), and the (long) digressions are also interesting... and maybe I'm missing the point, but...

It seems to me that with the *original* question ("do I HAVE to carry...") you're asking people to make a value judgement for you. Of course you don't HAVE to carry anything at all, it's a free country... and I'm not at all sure that the question of whether or not you should WANT to carry any specific item or items is something that anyone else can answer for you, no matter how good their intentions.

There are certain underlying values that prompt most of us to want to be more prepared than most people feel a need for, and that's why we're here. Not implying that you're not very welcome to be here with us, but if you feel no real desire to be more prepared than most people, why is that a problem... and what brings you here?

My occupation means that I work in the city, mostly, and that I sometimes spend a lot of time in government buildings. My personal values and interests mean that I chafe against the restrictions that this imposes. If your personal values don't do that... I guess I just fail to see the problem. Certainly no one is going to mandate that you're MORE prepared than you want to be. If you feel that's being imposed on you in some way, I'm sure that wasn't the intent.
Posted by: Craig

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 07:40 PM

When you say, "I believe I did carry my little SAK into these places," did you pass through metal detectors or physical searches? The next time I visit I'll downsize (drastically).

I'm a SAK addict so can you specify which "little SAK" you carried? The Executive is one of my favorites.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/03/03 08:04 PM

In reply to: If you are attempting to reduce risk by disarming individuals who you don't trust then you will move in that direction until you are satisfied with the level of risk achieved.

My question is Where does it stop? Short answer is it won't.
There will always be some event that occurs that requires a further tightening of our lapse of security.

About 5 or 6 years ago congress was trying to pass the Know Your Customer law that would have required banks and airlines to report any activity that was outside of your normal level of activity. For example, you normally fly coach one weekend a month and pay cash for your ticket. One week you decide to fly 1st class and pay with your Visa card. You would have been flagged. The intent of the law was to help ID drug dealers but it was not put into effect because of concerns of abuse and violations of our civil liberties.

The Dept of Homeland Security is currently "testing" a revamped version of this law at a "few" undisclosed airports with the intent of stopping terrorists. Only now there is a background check done on every person who buys a ticket and that customer is coded green (ok), yellow (might be allowed to fly after further investigation), or red (you don't fly for the next 30 years, no B.S.). You don't have the right to know what caused the flag and there are no provisions for appeal. Now I don't have anything in my background that should raise a flag but I don't want the feds rummaging through my background every year when I fly to Dallas to pick up my kids.

These types of laws, when left unchecked, only lead to more draconian laws in the future. They also set a dangerous precedent. Will the county sheriff be allowed into your house to check you out because you drive county road 42 on a daily basis?

No amount of lobby security is going to stop a terrorist attack on a building. Let's see...one clean cut, unarmed bandit passes security. He opens any fire door leadng to the outside and lets in 10 or 100 heavily armed fellow bandits and it's all over. How do you increase security to prevent that? Guards at the fire exits? Psychic readings for anyone entering the building? There's no such thing as foolproof security. The bad guys will ALWAYS find a way around. It's kind of like gun control. Only the law abiding are affected as they line up to register their guns. The bad guys won't bother.

In the end you haven't managed much risk at all. You've only put out the people you're trying to protect and redirected any real threat to a quarter you still haven't identified.

That's my 2 cents

Posted by: Anonymous

Where does it end? - 04/03/03 08:19 PM

Where does it end? I can't find any natural limit to this "logic."

This discussion started out by talking about how we're limiting the hardware we can carry... now you've brought up the fact that they're trying to limit your actions, vis a vis your spending habits. Only one more step and they'll be limiting what we can say, we don't want to give terrorists any IDEAS, right?

I see this as a real problem that goes beyond gun control, or even freedom of movement. I'd hate for this country to become the thing it despises most, all in the name of "security". I think we're already in dangerous territory and few seem to even realize it.

Freedom comes with risks! Even so, I'll take freedom over the alternative.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Where does it end? - 04/03/03 09:06 PM

For clarity:

I believe that the right to bear arms and all of our (americans) other rights and liberties are vital to our success as a society and political power.

That having been said I also believe that discussion of that opinion on an international forum that has decidedly attempted to remain non-political is out of place. My initial post was made in an attempt to clarify the question. As I see it, all the grumbling about restrictions placed on us in the name of security are correct and the situation is quite a lot worse than most realize as you said. OTOH, if someone comes here and wants to know what could be carried as helpful survival tools in the face of these or more severe restrictions then we owe it to them to focus on those items that would be helpful and allowable so that they can have their questions answered even if they don't agree with our having liberties. There are many Britons who believe that carrying a gun is not the right thing for a citizen but If one showed up here wanting answers for day-to-day survival in urban London they would need an answer that doesn't include a Glock.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Where does it end? - 04/03/03 09:14 PM

It is interesting to see where a seemingly simple question will lead us.

I've been pointing this problem out to family and friends for years. Their more affectionate endearments for me include paranoid, anti-social, etc. After all, nobody likes to admit that THEIR government just might not be so benevolent. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I honestly believe that this problem is with us to stay and most people will just accept it. With that thought in mind I must now go and give your name to my new Big Brother <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What's the quote by Jefferson about tyranny and good men doing nothing?


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/03/03 09:37 PM

I cary a q-tip travel pack with the following
leatherman squirt p-4
leatherman mircra
victorinox mini champ light 2
photon 2
10 strike any wheres
3 bandaids
duct tape
5 bucks
saftey oins
needle and thread
pepto bismo chewables
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Where does it end? - 04/03/03 09:55 PM

That's cool man... I'm not really trying to make you feel like I'm coming down on you. I just feel very strongly about this. I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again, Tom Ridge and the "Department of Homeland Security" scares me more than any terrorist that has ever lived. This is not to say that I don't think that our government doesn't have good intentions... I think even Karl Marx had good intentions in the beginning.

As far as what I was originally trying to say. Atty_guy said he had a "fundamental question." I was merely trying to point out that his question may have been even more fundamental than even he realized. Is it a problem when someone doesn't carry all the tools they want because its a security hassle? I think so!

As far as what you must carry for survival, I have always said that its your knowledge and your mental state that will prepare you more than any tool ever can. Still, I don't want to have to look for flint to start a fire and chip a spear point when something happens. I'd rather afford myself a few advantages, and I get pretty upset when people tell me I can't do that. Its feels a little like someone is punishing me when I haven't even commited a crime.

Everybody stays quiet about it because its done in the name of "security." I think people that know this is BS need to speak up more, or it may never stop. And even though this is an international site, I imagine this is going to eventually be a problem for everyone here... if it isn't already.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Where does it end? - 04/03/03 09:55 PM

I think I see your point about some international members needing a source of information that doesn't include a Glock. However, I think your concern just might be misplaced.

On this entire thread I found 2 replies in which a member actually said they carry a firearm on a regular basis. I didn't see any Glocks mentioned. I think that your hypothetical Londoner would have gleaned plenty of useful information and still not have had to worry about circumventing the gun laws of the U.K.

The thread may have digressed a bit politically but certainly no more than many others. (Long live the French army knife!)

Posted by: Anonymous

The Law in DC, re: SAK or Edged Tool Carry - 04/04/03 12:45 AM

There are two laws pertinent to the question of what the law permits in DC, along with some understanding of a term of art. DC law generally allows pocket knives with blades under three inches. Federal law is ambiguous.

One may not bring a "dangerous" or "deadly weapon" onto federal property unless one is a law enforcement officer in the performance of his (or her) duties. The federal law states that a "dangerous" or "deadly weapon", per se, does not include a knife with a blade length under two and a half inches. The law is ambiguous with respect to, say, pocket knives with three inch blades. (Per se dangerous or deadly weapons include firearms and switchblades.) If it is not clear that an item is per se dangerous or deadly, a court or prosecutor will look to intent. If one is carrying a pocket knife for benign, non-offensive uses, it is not a dangerous or deadly weapon. If, OTOH, one carries a pocket knife for self defense, it may well be found to be a dangerous or deadly weapon and the carrier may be violating the law.

So, what does the law permit one to carry in DC? Probably a pocket knife with a blade under three inches. The last time I visited the White House (post-9/11) the Secret Service had a sign posted by the East Wing stating that visitors could not bring into the building pocket knives with blades longer than three inches.

Disclaimer: This is not legal advice and I am not acting as anyone's attorney.
Posted by: Anonymous

Funny thing about the Capitol - 04/04/03 02:06 AM


A couple of interesting thrings regarding the Capitol. First, it was a widely spread rumor, pre-9/11, that if you were a staffer or a congressman and you could get your firearm onto Capitol grounds, you were safe and the Capitol Police would not confiscate it.

Second, you may recall a shooting incident at the Capitol a few years back. A mentally ill man was able to blast his way through security and shoot a number of people, including staffers and police officers. Again, there was a rumor that staffers in various offices on the hallway that the shooter went down had locked out a number of victims who, unable to reach safety, were shot. If there were any heroes, besides the fallen peace officers, the list would have to include Senator Bill Frist who saved lives that day, including the shooter's.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Preparedness starts with a firearm - 04/04/03 02:09 AM

Didn't see any indication that this thread originated in the U.K.. Being one of the "packing" members, I have to point out that Doug's first item on the list of what he carries on his person when he leaves the house to travel in the local area is a Glock 22 with a 15 shot clip. My pistol is my starting point for preparedness. I would not leave the house with my family without being prepared to defend them if necessary. I've had many people ask me why with my degrees don't I pursue a more lucrative career. I'd rather be the captain of my own boat so to speak, and chart my own course. Maybe I work in some seedy areas where I feel better with a gun, but I'd rather work there than have to go through security checks and body cavity searches to make a buck every day. My spirit would die a little each time. Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

Make it a .45 ACP - 04/04/03 02:35 AM

It's a matter of personal choice after careful consideration of the risks and benefits. For me, without question, firearms are a part of my preparation for disasters or emergencies. They aren't appropriate for every situation, but when they are needed, there are no substitutes.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Make it a .45 ACP - 04/04/03 02:39 AM

Excellent choice!

I'm also fond of .357 Sig, if you want something more modern.
Posted by: Anonymous

93 yrs. - 04/04/03 02:42 AM

You mean there've been changes in firearms since 1911? <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Preparedness starts with a firearm - 04/04/03 02:55 AM

I'm definitely with you on this. I was just acknowledging that minime might have a point.

Personally I'm a New Detonics Combatmaster in .45 type of guy. And the NRA, GOA, and JPFO all get as much $$$ as I can afford.

Posted by: Anonymous

Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm - 04/04/03 03:31 AM

Okay guys, I'm carrying 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P hollow point. Should be equal or better one shot stops compared to a .45 ACP round, no matter what Colonel Cooper may say otherwise. Rather have 13 rounds of stopping power that fits in my pocket. Those old tests proving .45 stopping power were done using cows. Don't see many cows in the city - prefer gelatin tests and modern science. Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm - 04/04/03 03:59 AM

'Fraid not, dude...

When it comes to one stop shots, the .45 still rules! I suggest we head on over to Packing.org and discuss it there. That way we don't bore all these guys or interrupt their conversations about snare wires and survival saws <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.
Posted by: gitarmac

I carry a glock!! - 04/04/03 05:15 AM

Sometimes, sometimes I carry a small 38 special or my .22mag mini-revolver. My parents gave me my first gun when my husband went to Japan on deployment. Brandishing a firearm prevented my from harm 2 times (both at my home). Back then you didn't need permission to exercise the RKBA. When I was a little girl my mom always had her .22 revolver in her tackle box when we went fishing. She said it was for snakes. Whatever. We fished whereever we wanted and never had a problem with snakes, including the 2 legged kind.
The thought of not have a firearm of some sort on the nightstand is such a forgien concept. I have a "permit" to carry my gun but there are so many forbidden places it's almost not worth the problem. I do always carry a nice folder, it's better than fingernails.
Posted by: frenchy

Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm - 04/04/03 08:53 AM

Yeah, do that, go to another forum !!!
So I won't be drooling from envy, reading your posts about .45 vs 9mm ....
<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In FRANCE, there is no RKBA.
You can get a "possession authorization" to buy a handgun for sporting or defensive reasons : I mean not to defend your life, but only to defend your cash-register (and it rather be a BIG cash register !), if your are a jeweller, for instance...

As a member of a shooting club (+ other requirements), I was able to ask for possession permits, in order to buy my .45 ACP (Colt serie 80) and .357 (french Manurhin MR73).
I can't "carry" them. I can only transport them in a bag, dis-assembled (or locked), from my house to the shooting range.

So there is no way a gun will be part of any survival kit, here in France ....


P.S.: were I not a "law abiding" citizen, I guess I could go in some "hot" suburbs and buy AK47s and RPG launchers, without asking for any permits .... <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
But anyway, how do you store a RPG in a PSK ... ??????.... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm - 04/04/03 09:22 AM

Sorry Frenchy,
Didn't mean to make you drool. Packing is good - deeply sorry that you can't.
In my experience - debating with big bore advocates is a waste of time - you're entitled to your opinion. IMO there is little % difference in stopping power between my 9mm +P load and your .45 ACP, and hardly enough to justify the extra weight or smaller magazine capacity. I'll throw you a little writings of Chuck Hawks, and leave it at that:
"The stopping power of any handgun bullet turns out to be a function of its ability to disrupt vital bodily functions, not the diameter or weight or initial shape of the bullet that strikes the victim. For example, the difference in the size of the entrance hole made by a .451" bullet compared to that made by a .355" bullet in an elastic (semi-self sealing) material like skin turns out to be largely irrelevant to stopping power. The idea (which I have heard expressed) that a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole to "bleed out" a man or an animal is faintly ridiculous.
The principle method of both stopping and killing with any firearm, whether rifle or pistol or shotgun, is the disruption of vital bodily functions. Fatally damage any animal's heart, liver, lungs, or central nervous system (including Homo sapiens) and it is not going to live long enough to bleed out. Fail to put your bullet in a vital spot and you are very likely to have a problem with a man or an animal. That is not to say that some bullet placements might not eventually cause death by loss of blood, or infection, or some other mechanism, but that is never the goal of any hunter OR gunfighter who wants an immediate one shot stop.
Readers who have done some deer hunting have probably observed that often the entrance wound from a modern expanding rifle bullet (like a 100 grain .243, 130 grain .270, or 150 grain .308) seems minimal, with almost no external blood loss at all. In addition, there may be no exit wound--the bullet is often found just under the hide on the off side. But if the shot was true the deer's lungs probably look like they went through a blender, and the animal was down in seconds. That is an illustration of nearly perfect stopping power and it has little or nothing to do with the relatively small caliber of the bullet involved.
Modern big bore advocates, following in the footsteps of Jeff Cooper (who I respect greatly and regard as a fine and very persuasive writer), will claim that the example cited in the paragraph above and witnessed by countless tens of thousands of deer hunters does not apply at typical handgun bullet impact velocities. They argue that below some magic impact velocity (usually about 2000 fps) the temporary stretch cavity that contributes so much to the lethality of rifle bullets like those in the example above ceases to exist. These writers continue to ignore any facts contrary to their preconceptions." I didn't feel like being dumped on by .45 ACP superiorists today. Shall we agree to disagree? Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/04/03 02:41 PM

As I recall ( and I wan't taking notes), it was typical airline security - metal detector and tray for pocket change. I pulled my keys and SA Classic (iddy bitty blade and small scissors) out and passed it through outside the MD and walked through, picking up my stuff. I entered two Congressional Buildings and the LOC. my daughter got on a White House tour, and I understand the security there was VERY tight.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm - 04/04/03 02:52 PM

Actually, we don't even have to agree to disagree. My carry gun is a .380. I've always valued accuracy over "stopping power." Even when I hunt, I use the lightest slug I can find and count on the flatter trajectory and greater energy to do the job. So far so good. That's also why I like .357 Sig, its a relatively light, hot bullet.

But the .45 also has its place. If I'm trying to shoot somebody in the dark and I can't aim accurately, then I hope its a .45 that I've got in my hand!! This also makes it a great self-defense round for someone who doesn't want to spend hours at IDPA practicing shot placement in tactical situations. Your original statement was that a 9mm has as much "stopping power" as a .45. The statistics do not bear that out. I have the data in a spreadsheet if you'd like me to send it to you. Now, there are plenty of enthusiast out there that poo poo "stopping power" statistics. If you're one of them, that's fine. But be careful how you use the term, nowadays it means something very specific among the experts/enthusiasts.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/04/03 02:57 PM

Adapting to the "present", among other things, means working for reasonable laws and regulations within our existing Constitutonal framework, which, all things considered, is pretty good. Reviewing this thread, I seem to hear a lot of "politician bashing - stupid, inept, etc." Well, the cure for than lies at the ballot box, and/or in the judicial system. Over time, this country has been a pendulum with respect to citizen's rights and concerned people have always been the ones to carry the ball. But members of this forum probably don't need to be told this. All I know is that the coming elections will see a new high in political activity for me, although I would much rather be out rambling around in the woods with whatever I want to carry.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/04/03 03:27 PM

All I know is that the coming elections will see a new high in political activity for me, although I would much rather be out rambling around in the woods with whatever I want to carry.


And I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the matter. As an aside, being a former teacher I try very hard not to use the word "stupid" very often. Its a very emotionally charged word and can do a lot of damage when used in the wrong place. However, I will say that some of these security measures are simply, stupid.

BTW, my political activism started approximately 1 month after 9/11/01. There's about a million things I'd rather do than deal with politicians, but I also think its very important that we put a stop to all this reactionary "feel good" nonsense before it gets any more out of hand than it already is.
Posted by: Anonymous

Stopping power? Statistical significance! - 04/04/03 04:18 PM

Wow, we agree and we disagree - I hope you're loading your own .380 rounds - what they sell in the U.S. is underpowered. I have a library of statistics on different loads on my hard drive. To me there is no significant "statistical" difference in +P 9mm vs. 45ACP power - the numbers are too close to statistically declare a winner, especially in actual LEO historical shootout experience. Maybe I was overstating to say equal or better, but to me most .45 talk is in mojo-land. I love it when they start talking momentum. Kinetic energy is where it's at. Anyway, I can probably put three 9mm rounds to POA before a less well trained shooter can shoot two 45 ACP rounds. BTW, FYI, I keep a S&W model 19 .357 in the glovebox. The 357 SIG is a winner in my book too - my cousin just traded his 45 ACP for one. Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance! - 04/04/03 05:19 PM

Well, I've never gotten into reloading. I just use the Cor-bon +P for now. It is an interesting idea though. I may have to spend some time out the garage with my dad the next time I go home to visit.

All the statistical differences between most popular rounds are pretty small. My spreadsheet puts the best 9mm +P at 91% (Cor-bon) and the best .45 at 94% (Federal Hydroshock). I do try to average all the stopping power data and look at which rounds are more effective in general. My logic being that if I have to just run in a store and buy something off the shelf, I want to know what round would most likely be effective. When you average all the data, the .45 pulls ahead of the 9mm a bit more (87% vs. 81%). You're quite right when you say a lot of discussions about caliber degrade into "my daddy can beat up your daddy" kind of nonsense, but every now and then you can weed through the noise and find somebody that can give you justified arguments for their position. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Being a physicists, I've tried several times to explain the difference between momentum and kinetic energy to some people. I've even used the analogy of the military using high speed sabots to penetrate enemy tank armor. A lot of people have their minds made up and just ignore whatever you tell them. They seem to only be there to change YOUR mind and assume they've already got everything figured out. But I agree with you about kinetic energy. And since it scales with mass (linearly), but velocity squared, light and fast beats heavy and slow (if you wanna bore a hole right through 'em). But it only works that way if you assume you're on target. If you've missed all the vital stuff and are just embedding in muscle, knockdown power can be a very useful thing. And missing the vital areas can be a real concern in a stressful situation like a shootout.

It all depends on your skill level... if you're good, then a .357 Sig is the right gun. If you don't pracitce much, the .45 is a much better choice. I'm not sure where the 9mm fits in there, but I'd say its somewhere in between for sure.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance! - 04/04/03 05:55 PM

benman - you are "the man"
I use this example. The folly of momentum is that it is a linear calculation. If I tossed a 16 lb. (112,000 grain projectile) bowling ball at you at a speed of 2 feet per second it would have more momentum than the 45 ACP, but would have zero penetration and almost no knockdown power. At the other end of ridiculous - if comparing bullet weights and loads with equal kinetic energies I'm sure that if I could get a grain of sand traveling fast enough (hypothetical - it would melt first) it would boil flesh and vaporize bone. Given a choice I'd take a hit with the bowling ball. Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance! - 04/04/03 07:09 PM

I'm sure that if I could get a grain of sand traveling fast enough (hypothetical - it would melt first) it would boil flesh and vaporize bone.

Not to keep beating the dead horse, but I thought I'd point out that this is exactly the kind of thing that happens in space. A grain-sized meteor can pretty much punch right through a communications satelite. That's why all the systems are redundant. There's basically no way to shield against it!
Posted by: Hutch66

Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance! - 04/04/03 08:48 PM

I read an article a few months back that you all might find interesting and I've been trying to find it in my piles of such saved things, but since I can't put my finger on it I'll paraphrase. They did a test using different handgun rounds while hunting, the idea being that a person's reaction to being shot would depend at least partly on what he thought would happen when he got shot, while the deer had no preconceptions. They found that the round itself made very little difference (I think they tested 9mm-.45ACP) The make or break factor was shot placement. The deer shot with 9mm reacted the same as the deer shot with a .45 if the shot was in the same location.

Just thought you might be interested,
Chris. (Glock 27)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance! - 04/04/03 09:04 PM

That is interesting... if you ever find that article, make sure you give us a reference so we can go look it up. I'd certainly like to know the details on how they measured the data, all the factors they tried to control, and how they kept the PETA heads from going completely nuts! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Frenchy might like it too so that he can continue to live vicariously through us barbarians here in the U.S. Sorry, Frenchy... just teasin'! <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/04/03 10:45 PM

I covet the Midnite MiniChamp II myself. Don't have a Micra yet. Don't have a Squirt yet, either.

I gotta ask: What's a "q-tip travel pack?"
Posted by: Craig

Re: A Fundamental Question - 04/04/03 10:52 PM

I'm not planning a tour of the White House. I'm not that curious. By the way, I believe typical airport security has changed, I think. The last time I traveled through Philadelphia International Airport, the tray for pocket change had been retired as far as I could see. EVERYTHING in your pockets went into your coat, which was then balled up and sent through the detector. You then walked through the upright detectors. No room to manuever, as far as I could tell.
Posted by: Craig

Re: The Law in DC, re: SAK or Edged Tool Carry - 04/04/03 11:05 PM

Thanks, man. You know your stuff.

I think I'm cool, then.

I have one folder with a blade over three inches that I take with me only on hikes in the woods. All my other folders are on the small side, SAKs or others with blades about two inches or less. They have to be small to fit in the pockets of my dressy office slacks.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Exactly. . . . - 04/05/03 03:37 PM

Actually, I thought a whistle would be useful if you are in a crumbled mess of a building and search and rescue teams are looking for survivors... Wouldn't the whistle help them find you? You may not be able to yell, or yell loud enough. Just a thought. [color:"blue"] [/color]
Posted by: Anonymous

How about a party sized air horn? - 04/05/03 03:59 PM

Keep a small air horn in my DayRunner. Would be easy for a woman to carry in a purse. Six bucks at Wally World. Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm - 04/05/03 04:34 PM

For penetration you cannot beat the Five seveN 5.7x28mm pistol. It will penetrate a PASGT vest at 300 meters, a PASGT helmet at 240 meters and a CRISAT vest at 100 meters. It only weighs 1.7 lb loaded and carrys 20 rounds.

Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance! - 04/05/03 06:40 PM

The really interesting point is that the testers seemlingly had no preconceptions about the results.
I donīt intend to offend anyone but field tests like this one are not likely to produce really valid results. Even when youīre hunting the conditions canīt be controlled to the required extend. Even when shot with the same gun in the same spot different individuals of the same species react differently (most of the hunters that I know support that).
I fully second the importance of proper bullet placement though.
When I discussed the topic of the best bullet with hunting buddies we finally agreed that the joice was not rational but everyone was able rationalize his joice. Maybe thatīs why discussions on this topic can last for a long time.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Peta - 04/05/03 08:07 PM

Those Peta folks are something. We run into a sub-group of them when we go hog hunting. Those People Interested in Saving Swine Every Day keep throwing themselves in front of our swamp buggies. Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Exactly. . . . - 04/06/03 02:59 AM

In almost any situation, a whistle is more effective, more distinctive, and less tiring, than yelling. In desert conditions, you are also going to expel far less vital moisture when using a whistle, compared to yelling.

If you are buried, tapping or banging is also going to be effective. And don't forget kibble for the search doggies....
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/06/03 04:12 PM

if you go inot a cvs or other drug store , in the section where they have all the little travel soaps,shampoos and other little stuff there right there. basically there a little plastic box that has a flip lid on the long side. there about the same length as an altoids tin much skinnyer and a little wider
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/06/03 09:31 PM

Thank you. I'll check into it.
Posted by: Craig

Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs - 04/06/03 09:50 PM


You mention "50 feet paracord...100 feet Spectra Kite line... mini multi tool, large multi tool..."

May I ask the make and model of your mini and large multitools?

Also, if you carry Paracord, why carry the Spectra Kite line too?

Posted by: Hutch66

Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance! - 04/07/03 05:02 PM

I agree completely, I guess my point was that it is never just one aspect, as some would believe, but a myriad of factors that go into any equation like this. I own a .270 and a .30-06, and the .270 doesn't see much action during deer season, but it would do the job just fine.
We could go on for weeks about this issue, (oh, wait, we have <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) but two of my favorite quotes I think sum up the issue quite well;
" A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45"
"Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledgehammer"

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Firearms Tactical Institute - just the facts! - 04/07/03 11:30 PM

Now that we've said more than we should have here - check out this link for some folks who have taken the "personal defense" topic seriously - http://www.firearmstactical.com. There's a report in there explaining pretty much the best round for the small pistol I carry. They also seem to prefer Doug's .40 S&W to a 357 SIG load. If anyone wants to carry a .45 around all day long be my guest, but one things for sure - I've always got my pistol on me because it's so light I don't even notice it's there. Rule number one for a gunfight - bring a gun. Regards, Keys
Posted by: Anonymous

9mm v. .45 - Yikes - 04/08/03 03:22 AM

Wow. . . . Who knew there'd be so much discussion on handguns. Hey, I was just expressing my personal preference and not suggesting that one was better than another!!!

Posted by: gitarmac

Re: Peta - 04/08/03 05:01 AM

I guess they don't know or care that feral hogs are very destuctive, and very tasty!!! PETA= people eating tasty animals! <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Peta - 04/08/03 01:32 PM

Most certainly, I especially enjoy it when they're ground into sausage and hamburger meat. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Not to get started on one of my favorite rants, but just to reinforce what you said, I've often found that most of the fanatics in the world (PETA, et al) rarely know what they're talking about. They just want to go off on a crusade so they can feel good (about themselves) whether they're actually improving the state of the world or not!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Firearms Tactical Institute - just the facts! - 04/08/03 03:12 PM

I sort of hate to add to this thread, as it's close to a religious issue... but I can speak for my own reasoning on the issue. It's the same sort of reasoning that applies to many other areas where personal experience and empirical knowledge don't suffice for a decision that nonetheless must be made:

1. I am not an expert on this subject matter. Reading is not enough, these issues would take either extensive first-hand experience (shooting people, which is experience I'd much rather not have) or careful indirect experimentation that I'm unlikely to ever be equipped to accomplish.

2. The "experts" of the field disagree. There is no useful consensus.

3. Even though the "experts" disagree, it's my skin on the line, so I have to make a decision and live with the consequences. The argument that I don't have the background, experience, training, academic degrees, military medals or whatever is completely irrelevant. Note that this is also the case in many other fields, as in choosing a martial arts instructor or which doctor to believe (I've had both tell me that I couldn't make that decision). It's my choice, and I cannot abdicate the responsibility even if I would like to.

4. While ANY direct statement about stopping power is contested, these facts are almost uncontestable:

The stopping power of the 9mm parabellum and similar cartridges has been the subject of a great deal of controversy for something like a century now. That being the case, it's unlikely to be resolved anytime soon.

The stopping power of the 45ACP cartridge has been the subject of virtually zero controversy for something like a century now.

5. Given that the stakes are extremely high, I will go with the non-controversial selection, thank you.

Perhaps it is really true that the 9mm is "just as good" as the 45, but given a choice, I'll go with the one that's almost always used as the standard for comparison.

Everyone else, of course, will apply their own reasoning to preserving their own skins, and that's as it should be... but it's well to remember that the stakes are higher than just a pet hypothesis. Being proven wrong in this case could be more than just embarrassing.

P.S. - Apropos of another section of this thread, I don't carry routinely, and haven't even made an exception in decades. That's not by choice, but in this section of The Land of the Free in 2003, doing so puts you at far more risk from the police than from criminals.