plastic Sheeting and duct tape

Is covering the windows with plastic sheeting of any value?
Are there any circumstances where it would help buy some time for the air to clear?? [color:"purple"] [/color] nancygerardo@merestone.com

Yes, if you were on the very fringe of the chemical/biological cloud... but its real value seems to have more to do with making people feel good about doing something proactive in an uncertain time.

There are lots of previous threads about positive-pressure safe rooms and air filters. Do a search if you'd like to know more. If you can't find anything, let me know and I'll post some links here.

You could search the forum for that topic. There was an extensive discussion of this issue recently. The folks at that US Army Research Institute for Chemical Defense at Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD actually did studies on the topic and claim it works.

I read every posted msg re: plastic & dt, but didn't come across the one you are citing from Maryland. Also, if you create a safe room the rest of your house will need to be aired out, and at that point you will be stepping into bad air.
Comment???
What about cooking with a portable backpacking stove?

Also, would oil lamp (not odorless) be safe to use when sealed in a room?? How about in a larger area--apartment??
I so appreciate getting feedback from those who did. [color:"blue"] [/color]

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but using any open flame inside your sealed room seems like a bad idea to me. Assuming you're not building a complex over pressurized room, and assuming that you actually can completely seal a room with plastic sheeting (which seems doubtful), you've just sealed yourself in a plastic bag with a limited oxygen supply. Probably not a great idea to begin with, but if you burn anything (candles, lanterns, stoves, etc.) you'll burn off the limited oxygen you started with.

Also, check out this
thread, I think it is the one Dr. Anderson recomended, but i'm not sure.

Hope this helps,
Chris.

Really liked this info on the subject so will pass it along: Link I printed it out and keep a copy handy. Kind of gives the impression that besides for a real nuke blast, most WMDs are terrorizing weapons with low probabilities for casualties. I've got 10 mil plastic sheeting and duct tape stashed in a safe room for the just in caseness of it, but it's mostly there to make my wife and kids feel better. Probably have a better chance of being abducted by aliens than being gassed. Would however take precautions for the possibilty of civil disorder following a dirty bomb or such. After hurricane Andrew the looters came out, and law enforcement couldn't get in due to blocked roads. A lot of folks had to guard what was left of their property with whatever weapons they had. Would expect similar difficulties due to gridlock on the roads in a WMD situation. Unfortunately, emergencies bring out the best and the worst of human nature. Regards, Keys

To be effective a sealed room will have no un-filtered air exchange with the outside - contaminated air. Thus if you successfully seal your safe room with duct tape and plastic and you don't provide a positive pressure filtered air flow into your safe room you will surely suffocate. This has happened in Isreal where they preached and practiced this procedure during the first gulf war. Properly constructed this approach will provide some reasonable protection from many bio-chem attacks but if you don't have electricity to run the ventilation system or your filters are faulty or clogged you will be just as dead from suffocation. Dead is dead. If you don't have the room that well sealed then the bio-chem agents will infiltrate just as readily as the Oxygen will.

Let's see...you've got a gas, dirty bomb, whatever incident in the business district of Anytown, USA and you're either in the plume or at least generally downwind. Rather than maniacally trying to seal yourself in & hoping that you don't run out of air before the all clear is given, doesn't it make more sense to grab your loved ones & a BOB and get out of the danger area? Sheltering in place is a good option in some circumstances but when there's literally danger in the air it's time to leave.

Prior to 9/11 most people would never have even considered plastic sheeting and duct taping their homes against gas yet the threat has always been present. Not neccesarily from terrorists but train derailments, truck accidents, etc. In fact, an all too common train derailment is a much more likely threat than any terrorist.

Duct tape and plastic sheeting are feel good suggestions to give the public the impression that the government is really earning the 35% of your pay they collect in taxes.

That's my two cents

Ed

My $0.02 worth:

Dean Ing wrote an "entertainment" novel about a post-nuke america, can't remember the title right now. In it he describes sealing off the basement of an old house, and providing positve pressure FILTERED air through a carboard/plastic sheet/duct tape bellows--the filter element being a separate box connected via a plastic sheet tube. Filter element was toilet paper rolls, air drawn sideways thru the rolls (center tube being plugged up).

Simple, dirt cheap, and infallible as long as you have enough folks to pull shifts pumping air <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh...! Just rememberd name of book: Pulling Through.

Negatives aside, I would still have the plastic sheeting and duct tape handy. This forum is largely about being prepared for dangerous situations of low probablity of occurance. There have been numerous terrorist related inquiries and arrests here in S. Florida. If I were to look up and see a small drone airplane spraying something over my area I would dang sure seal up my safe room and wait it out for a few hours. I think four people would have no trouble breathing in a large sealed bedroom for that long. Regards, Keys

One word - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
If you are in a sealed room, even a house with all the outside openings taped and sealed shut, you are limiting the amount of air coming in - that's what you want to be protected. Combustion of ANY type consumes oxygen. So do you. The very real possibility is that you would convert your "safe" room into a gas chamber if you have any type of open flame, even a candle.

I live in Phoenix (actually Scottsdale) Arizona...Three million and growing. In the winter/spring, there are also lots of tourists.. If something were to happen, I don't think it would be feasible to get out of town. Plus, you would be "out in it" exposed to whatever contaminate. That's why I feel I would probably hunker down, and wait 6-8 hours. I am still torn about covering one room or the entire condo. [color:"green"] [/color]

What's a BOB?

like all others said, do NOT burn anything in a sealed room !!
if you want warmed, use non-oxygon consuming heating, like chemical heating pads and if you want to warm food use chemical heating pads like supplies with MRE"s ( millitary rations ).

**** do NOT use chemical heaters, they consume oxyon 2 apparently (read next post)****

BOB= bug out bag
A bag ( orr something else ) with survival suplies with's can be grabed fast, wenn you have to bug out.

Ouch! Be careful. MRE heaters usually have instructions warning against using too many in a HMVEE, tent or other enclosed non-ventilated area due to the (non-breathable) hydrogen (I believe?) they give off. Using these in a sealed room is not a good idea. <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

As for chemical heaters, there are some which begin to warm up merely upon contact with air, as soon as the package is opened. These contain iron which oxidizes rapidly, releasing heat. They last for hours, which is great, but they require oxygen because they use it up. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> When oxidation happens fast enough, we call it flame. When it is very slow, we call it rust. When it happens fast enough to release heat, but not fast enough to release flame, we call it a really cool effect of modern chemistry which lets us make nifty hand & body warmers. But no matter what, it is oxidation and that means it is using up the oxygen by binding it with something, in this case iron. And yes, it gives off CO, just like flame, though perhaps less? (I don't know.)

The only chemical heaters I know of which would be safe are the reusable gel-filled heat pads that have a small metal disc in them. The disc is slightly concave/convex and you "pop" it by pushing it to be convex/concave (the opposite way). The shockwave created in the gel by this kinetic pop causes the gel to begin to crystalize rapidly. As it does, it gives off heat. Once solidified, it ceases to give of heat. You can return the crystalized gel to a liquid state by boiling the gel-pack for a little while. They are good for many repeat uses. The chemical reaction in these types of heaters does not involve oxidation and does not use up any oxygen. The problem with these is they last a half hour or so. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The best way to stay warm in such a situation might be to somehow filter your central heat air. That may take more engineering and construction than many of us would likely be willing to devote to it. The next best way might probably be to snuggle up with your loved ones under some blankets. Come to think of it, maybe that's the best way.

Stay safe,
J.T.

whoops.. <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> learned something again...

snuggle up with your loved ones under some blankets should work, unless they do some "activities" that would use more oxyon 2 than you want <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There are three threats that may force you to consider sheltering in place, chemical, biological, and nuclear dispersal device.

The first is a chemical agent and nerve agents are the predominant threat. Nerve agents are either persistent (VX) or not (soman, sarin, and tabun). Non persistent agents evaporate in a short time or simply blow away if a vapor. A safe room would provide the needed shelter for these agents. VX is a persistent agent and as such does not readily vaporize, so presents no vapor threat.

It is unlikely that a chemical agent could be effectively applied in an open urban environment by terrorists. These agents are far more effective in a closed system.

The Israelis recommend safe rooms to protect against the use of military weapons (ie missiles or bombs with chemical warheads).

Biological agents can either be contagious or not, that is be transmitted between people. Unfortunately, some agents, like Anthrax, are quite resistent to exposure to sunlight, etc. It is unlikely that sheltering would be very effective in protecting against most pathogens.

Radiologic dispersal devices spread radioactive materials that cause an increased lifetime risk of cancer for the most part, rather than cause a threat of immediate injury or death.

If an RDD is detonated, decisions would need to be made regarding acceptable levels of risk from exposure in regards to long term cancer risks.

Hope this helps.

If you llive on the edge of town and have several alternate roads available then feel good about hauling out of there. I live just within an expressway loop that has nothing but swampy Everglades on the other side, with no alternate roads. Knowing that during hurricane evacs there is high congestion and sometimes gridlock - I think that we will stay put and ride it out unless downtown is a nuked out crater. Actually with nuke half lives being what they are it may be okay to just stay indoors for a few days and take the potassium iodide tablets. Even the local health food store sells them now. The last place I want to be is exposed on the roads. As for plastic sheeting the whole condo - if it's a serious enough threat I doubt you'd have that much time. I'd rather do one room very very well. Regards, Keys

Thanks so much for your response...Yeah, I don't think I could get out of town with all these people. I would be sitting in traffic with all the junk in the air. I was thinking of covering the condo windows ahead of time, with half the window covering folded back & taped or clipped...then, I would only have to fasten the opening in a hurry. What do you mean by nuke half lives??

[color:"purple"] [/color]

I think I will just eat the food cold. In Arizona we don't have to think about keeping ourselves warm....I guess that can be a new appreciation in these times.
Thanks for the feedback.... I could have been a _______,
ALMOST!

Half life refers to the amount of time that it takes for the radiation level to diminish 50%.

In the case of a "dirty bomb" acute radiation exposure is not thought to be the primary threat. Rather, the radiation sources most likely available are not highly radioactive and will pose more threat to those exposed in the form of an increased lifetime risk of developing cancer with exposure to the agent.

In addition to what Beachdoc mentioned, I would add that KI is very unlikely to be useful in a dirty bomb incident, as it is unlikely that radioiodine would be used. Half lives for cobalt-60 and cesium-137 (believed to be the most likely sources used) are 5.2 and 30.1 years respectively. So if you are planning to hunker down and wait for it to decay, you would be waiting awhile.

Also in a dirty bomb incident, the powers-that-be will most likely ask the public to shelter in place initially, wait for the dust to settle, and then evacuate those that might be impacted by the resuspension of contamination when the hazmat guys go in to clean things up. At least that's what I told the police officers I trained this morning. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Greg
(the helpful radiation safety guy)

I've already decided to stay. If something happens no one is going to want refugees straining "their" resources anyway. Besides, any refugee or shelter situation is going to ban pets. I don't know about you folks, but pets are keeps for life where I'm concerned. I would not abandon a pet for any reason if I could prevent it.

Greg,
Thanks for the words on dirty bombs and KI. Half life statement was concerning the unlikely scenario of an actual blast, and probablity of small blast area - not talking multiple warhead ICBM's here but suitcase situation. Also, I don't live in town but on the furthest outskirts and am assuming that the major buildings downtown would be the high visibility targets for maximum media exposure. Agree that dirty bomb is more likely, and greatly appreciate the info. My greatest concern is being in the car in a fallout situation or high rad exposure. Assuming some distance from the incident, would prefer to have some roofing and concrete walls around me until the authorities advise otherwise. Regards, Keys

My understanding is that there will be a determination made re: the radioactive material used and the radiation level versus the expected increased lifetime cancer risk due to exposure. If the risk is very high, a decision of abandoning the area vs decon. If the risk is low, there may be little decon attempted.

I agree with the short term shelter in place, but remaining until radiation level decreases is not an option.

Okay gentlemen,
Knew I had the info on my hard drive somewhere. Again, basing my statement on the downtown crater from a suitcase atomic, not H-bomb or dirty bomb, would be concerned about Iodine-125 & 131 levels from fallout which have a half-life of 8.1 days, and assuming a considerable distance from the source. KI would be appropriate, and rehabilitation of the surrounding area is feasible. Agreed that dirty bombs would use isotopes of convenience such as Cobalt 60, commonly used in food irradation, or Cesium-137 available from electrical power reactor wastes, and hardly expecting to ride it out for 30 years. Regards, Keys

Just to be clear, a nuclear warhead (including a suitcase nuke) generates blast effect either through nuclear fission or nuclear fusion. One additional effect is intense and relatively short half-life radiation. After a 2-4 week period in a suitably shielded shelter, one could emerge and live in that area.

A dirty bomb is a conventional explosive that is packed in a radioactive material. When detonated, the radioactive material is disseminated in the area surrounding the explosion. The residual radiation may persist for decades.

Two different events entirely.

It depends on the type of device used whether or not Iodine will be a problem. In the unlikely event of a device being used that produced iodine, then KI might help to mitigate that hazard, assuming you were to get exposed in the first place (which is unlikely if you are sheltering in place). Just make sure you don't have an allergy to iodine before you start popping pills. The results could be unfortunate.

Greg

Your very welcome. You are probably correct that downtown buildings will be a more likely target than the outskirts of town. If I may ease your fears of high rad exposure, the number of scenarios involving acute high doses are pretty much reduced to an actual nuclear device, or a criticality device. Both of which are probably the least likely of all scenarios. A dirty bomb will not be a high rad exposure device, as by it's very nature it disperses the concentration of radioactive material.

If you are distant from the incident (of course that is relative depending on the incident) and upwind then you probably wouldn't even need roofing or walls.

Take care!

Greg

Beachdoc,

You are correct, an evaluation will be made based on the materials used and expected risks. However, I think that it is unlikely that an area would be abandoned, particularly in the downtown area of a city. While I agree with you that if the risks and levels are low that we probably don't need to clean it up, the fact is that the public will likely demand we clean it up, as they have in many other instances of environmental contamination.

Greg