Urban matters

Hello everyone and thanks for the welcome. An honor to post amongst such knowledgeable people.
To the point: I'm considering the option to remain "urban" in the event of a [fill blank] catastrophe. Don't get me wrong, I only am one with myself in the outdoors. Being outdoors is what I look forward (save and plan for) at least once a month.
What I'm talking about here is about the options in a MAJOR disaster after the city that you live in becomes chaotic. As long as the city is structurally sound I think me and the ones that would depend on me would be better off if we were to remain urban. I've done my own research among friends and survival forums (yeah... I know) and a very high percentage of them would opt to leave their cities. Never mind how well prepared they are or if they know what it takes to live off nature for a day, weeks or months. Or if they have any idea the humongous amount of fuel (food, water, toilette paper <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />, etc) one (1) person requires for just a month with no fridge or a 24hrs minimarket.
I'd remain urban. And believe me, I am "equipped to survive". My question is: Urban survival or outdoors in this particular scenario? Please let me know your choice.

Proud to share my views on this forum.

PS: To my wife dismay my looong preparations include from solar panels to a vault-like basement and thousands of dollars of gear and supplies in between. All guarded by the fact that only her and myself know about it.

The word survival conjurs up the mental image of a lone man with ragged clothes covered with animal pelts living by his wits and a stone tool he fashioned while braving the wild, teaming with animals, in the wilderness. Keeping warm, watered, and well fed in an apartment in surburbia with no utilities and the roads closed due to local conditions just does not seem as exciting. What would Jerimah Johnson do when the satelitte dish failed to provide international coverage of the sporting event on the far side of the world to his wall sized plasma screen?

Urban or suburban survival is much more likely to happen for most people. Certainly people do travel and enjoy the outdoors but most people are more likely to be at work or home.

My preparedness plans are based on staying in my primary residence in suburbia. There, I said it, out in the open in front of the www. I do not plan on packing up my kids and wife and "living off the fat of the land" as hunter gathers. There is not enough fat left on the land to support that lifestyle. There is not enough wilderness left to run to.

We have stored food and water. We have alternate heating, cooking, and shelter materials. We have hand tools and raw materials to make likely repairs or build anew. We are city folk with hands as soft as a baby bottom with fat waistlines and tender feet. But what sets us apart is we have knowledge and materials. We have made fires using flint and steel, MFS, and vasoline soaked cotton balls in in the backyard before heading to soccer games in the minivan. We have containers, a wagon, and a purifier so we can gather water from the neighborhood pond. We have taken first aid classes so we know how to use those stored medical supplies. The wife looks foward to the new Leatherman Micra that is color coded to match her outfits.

The doves that people hunt in the country are called piegons in the city. Few think about hunting piegons. What would be effective ways of hunting and trapping piegons or squirrels in an urban or surburban setting. Birds can be caught using fishing lines. They swallow the bait and hook. Reel them in and roast a little scwab.

Knowing how to start a fire in the fireplace to keep the house warm is just as important as knowing how to start a fire in the wilderness to keep the debris hut warm. Knowing how to purify water in the drainage ditch beside the road is just as important as knowing how to purify water from the stream in the wilderness.

Many of the skills and techinques are the same and can be used in both locations. If you follow any of the preparedness and survival sites or literature, they are primarily written by men who have made concerted efforts to learn primative skills. They tend to test themselves by going to remote areas. Don't overlook the backyard BBQ as a good place to lay a fire of found sticks and start it with your magneisum striker.

D,

One can argue the rational to stay/ leave scenarios forever.

There is a point that you have to prepare at least to evacuate.

The majority of people will be staying in TO because they don't know any better. I worked in TO for years but commuted from Barrie. I never once felt 100% safe in that city on a good day let alone a real bad situation.

2-3 million people fighting over 1 muffin from Timmy's is not a pretty sight. I question the reason you live there in the first place when there are options as stated above.

I got out of that rat race and am better for it.

To each his own.

Mike

We all agree that getting out of the city would be a problem (traffic, check points, traffic). After thinking about it I decided that in my best intrest would be to stay in the city until situation clears (for good or bad) and than depending on the outcome either leave or stay. If I can go back to work and be productive there is no need for me to leave even if my job would be purly volunteer (EMT work).

Matt

Greetings

For our situation, clearly "bugging in" is first choice in situations where that makes sense and we've had ample practice with that, courtesy of winter storms, wind storm damage, floods, and power outages.

But as they say: "Have a plan and a backup plan"

We also have Bug out plans that have branches and sequels. In many of those, I remain "in town" to discharge various public duties, and in other (highly unlikely) scenarios, I'm part of the "convoy".

Everyone's circumstances vary, so it's not simple to give "stay or go" advice.

Any advice for people who live in high rise apt buildings without fireplaces or back yards? Is it posible to filter water from the East river? <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Although the pidgeons are in abundance <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

There is enough pidgeons, squierls and rats in nyc to last us 10 years... Maybe by drinking East River Water you get mutated therefore immune to all BNC weapons. And now something about East River. I was doing a circumnavigation around the Manhatan in my kayak and wave from the barge fliped me. That was two years ago... My PFD, boat, rescue rope and some othe items still have this smell of gasoline, diesel fuel, chemicals, dead fish and garbage even after washing it over and over again.

This is interesting to me from a kind of "philosophical" perspective...

I always thought of survival as training in "real world" problem-solving. I don't really ever plan on building a snare to catch the rabbits in my front yard (at least not as long as the ammo holds out), but I'm glad that I know I can do it.

I just read all this stuff to get general ideas on how to aquire the things I need, regardless of where I am. Hopefully, so that I have a good idea of what to do, whether I'm in an urban or country environment, or whether I'm in a manmade or natural disaster.

My advice... the survival knowledge base is not that large. Try to learn as much of it as you can. Otherwise, you can be caught in a scenario that you're not prepared for. And always think in terms of adapting the ideas for new settings. Staying cool and being resourceful are gonna help keep you alive whether you're marooned in the jungle or stranded on the space station. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far as being prepared for the long haul specifically in an urban environment, I only have one piece of advice. Get a reliable sidearm and know how to use it in a defensive situation. <img src="images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Filtering water from the East River? You probably want to make sure that you have a good way to distill water in large quantities. Somehow I don't think the Aqua tablets would help you much on that one! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Distillation means you're going to need fire. Consider ways to rig a chimney in your apartment (stove pipe leading out a window for example). Understanding ventillation will be very important in your situation.

I figure it even simpler.

If I have 4 kids that are starving and I know you have food.

I am comming for you. No question, I will get your food.

Ben is correct, get your gun, learn to use it, stock up on the ammo, sleep with one eye open. A million starving people in a city is a nasty situation no matter how you rationalize it.

As you can tell I am all for bugging out. Not to live off of moss or leaves but to a safer less populated location with many trusted, armed, stocked up and like minded people like me. The water is clean, there are deer in the woods. It may not be perfect but it ain't no mass panic city situation either.

To each his own.

Good luck if and when TSHTF.

Mike

What manner of disaster would justify bugging out? Immedietely following the Northridge quake I watched truck after truck negotiate the damaged, but navigable freeway and road system. They were carrying bottled water from THE NORMAL DISTRIBUTION POINTS in Los Angeles. The various agencies are going to be devoting their skills and resources IN THE CITY. How many times do you think Old Bald Guy rolled up to help a disabled motorist 50 miles from asphalt during his CHP career <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My highly theoretical opinion on bugout is:

Scenario's like the Rodney King riots in LA and the DC anthrax scare had a lot of panic involved in a somwhat isolated area. Keep in mind these negative scenario's were caused by a verdict and a couple of letters.

I don't think it is beyond reason to assume that if a much larger situation were to occur the reason one needs to bug out maybe very easy to make.

My imagination can make that leap but not everyone's can.

Until then I plan for both bugging out and in, if i don't, fine no harm done.

Isn't that what being survival minded is about? Planning or at least having thought about the possibilities and making provisions to counter them. Reliance on the government or neighbours not being one of my plans.

Mike

Large cities "bug in" and "bug out" daily. Imagine that traffic increased 10 fold and desperation spurred on by sheer panic.

I was awestruck by the traffic that resulted from trying to evacuate the coastal areas of Georgia, North and South Carolina during hurricane Floyd. Imagine that a hundred times worse and more desperate!

As always luck has just as much a role to play as anything.

They key is to get out early if you can. One must make that judgement call. Not an easy thing to do but being prepared and having your stuff ready to bug in 10 mins has huge advantages.


I am not for bugging in or out but rather adapt to a given situation and be prepared for both.

Mike

Just as Beachdoc recalls hurricane Floyd, I have to remember the traffic snarls with hurricane Andrew here in S. Florida. It took many hours for government powers to realize that the toll plazas had to suspend tolls and open the gates to relieve the highway bottlenecks. In a bio/chem/nuke disaster the highways would be so clogged you'd probably be living in the car for 24 to 72 hours to get even fifty miles away. Mike is right - it's a judgement call, but I see bugging out as the last choice. We keep plenty of food and forty gallons of water on hand at all times. Don't see many pidgeons, but seagulls and Ibis are always flocking in the yard - hope I never have to roast one to feed the kids. Would probably use my air rifle to attract as little attention as possible. As for self defense, we've had a few riots here in the past too - things can escalate very quickly if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm just glad Florida is a concealed carry (permit) state. Regards, Keys

It's all about the scenarios. If you are in the way of a natural disaster with advanced warning it might be true folly to bug-in. It might also be impossible to bug-out. The stories on this forum about hurricaine andrew and floyd are testaments to these problems. It is worth noting though that those who did successfully bug-out from these hurricaines were much safer personally than those who didn't. OTOH there is no - NO way to protect your stuff that you leave behind from the "mob of angry villagers" that naturally takes control after such events. One suggestion that I have heard on other forums is the out-of-town self storage unit with back-up provisions. Whether this is Aunt Tillys or a locked trailer in a parking lot or a geo-cache in the state forest. Such a backup supply depot means that regardless of what befalls your home, it is unlikely to also simultaneously disrupt your backup. (short of armmeggedon). Most scenarios, including WMD scenarios that are likely will be, at most, regional in impact. There was a large exodus from Manhattan on 9/11/2001 but in a suburb or Boston (where I was working) there was a clear sense of life as usual. I even got a speeding ticket on the way home (as usual). Remember, also, that order was restored to NYC within 3 days with relatively little "collateral" damage to the ability of the city to govern and maintain the rule of law. It was much longer than 3 days before the area hit by Hurricaine Andrew was once again under civil authority - it was impressively long before it was even under military authority.

Depending on the location and scope of the situation the bug-out scenario might be quite as bad as the bug-in scenario. If there is wide-spread disruption and damage to infrastructure that stretches to months (BTW, IIRC those scenarios are ruled off topic) then the availablity of game in the country will be diminished radically and the woods will be populated with urbanites trying to hunt with whatever weapons they were used to using for drive-by shootings. If the scenario is Wild-Fire then an urban environment with a lake or ocean front might be much less vulnerable than a country environment. If the scenario is Earthquake then bugging-out might be completely impossible except on-foot which doesn't take you far or well prepared. If the scenario is urban riots then bugging out means abandoning all - ALL of your stuff but might be relatively manageable if you vehicle is not caught in the middle of the event and completely impossible if your vehicle is burned by the rioters. It's all about the scenario.

If you survive a scenario which disrupts governments ability to maintain the rule of law in the area that you are residing in you will need two things in the following order - Guns and Ammo, and friends and allies with guns and ammo, without these two things your preparations become as meaningful as the minimart left behind by the neighbor who bugg-ed out leaving the door unlocked and the shelves fully stocked - useless to you and available to the "mob of angry villagers". Friends and allies may be bought on the spot with stuff but that is expensive and not as worthwhile as having well prepared friends and allies ahead of time. I am not indicating that you should hoard what you have and not share - nor am I indicating that you should ignore stocking up on food and provisions because you can take what you want. What I am saying is that, If you have stuff and you indicate that by not needing stuff as badly as the next guy, then the next guy (who has Guns and Ammo - remember the 2nd ammendment says that he may and probably will) will come and level the playing field or completely decimate your stuff and you if you stand, unarmed, in the way. This is quite a different situation than you voluntarily sharing evenly so that you migh both survive better.

I'm all for remaining at home in the event of a disaster of some sort. Of course if home is a more dangerous place to be (some coastal locations in the event of hurricanes, some neighborhoods in the event of wildfire, South Padre Island in the event of Spring Break, etc.) then a bug out plan comes in very useful. Most people will choose to head to a family member or friend's place in another urban location. In that case, they should be involved in your "most likely scenario" bug out plans.

My problem is that I will possibly be in the "wilderness" when the "most likely scenario" for the Pacific Northwest happens (either earthquake or severe storm). I've made preparations to live out of the truck for a few days if necessary while the roads get cleared enough to get back home. I'd much rather deal with the aftermath of a large scale disaster at home where I know who should be in the neighborhood than in a strange location. Of course that protected cache of equipment, food and water is a pretty good motivation too. Chris's accounts of the Northridge earthquake convinced me that "better the devil you know" is sometimes the advise to follow.

I had the opportunity to meet with state Emergency Management officals about a year ago. They did learn something from the mass exodus caused by hurricane Floyd. While the North bound lanes of the expressway were a huge parking lot, the south bound lanes were completely empty.

Since then the state has made preparations to convert the interstates that pass throught the state of North Carolina, to all one direction. They flew a plane over all the the interstates and took arial pictures of each intersection. From that they deterined how many cones, orange barrels, and law enforcement it would take to redirect each intersection.

There are a number of issues with haveing traffic flow the wrong way on an interstate. All the signs are backwards. How to drivers know where is a good place to exit for food, fuel, restrooms, lodging, etc? All the stoplights and signals to regulate flow onto or off of the interstate are backwards. So you must have law enforcement at every single intersection to direct traffic. You must have cones, barrels or other devices to help redirect traffic around all the considerable normal markings.

Once in place and flowing is probably the easiest part of the job. But the conversion from 2 way to one or back will be significant. You would have to shutdown all entrances into the southbound for some period of time to clear it of any traffic. Then open it up to only North bound. Later it would have to be shutdown again, cleared of any wrong way traffic and then reopened for normal traffic.

Think about how an accident backs up traffic during normal situations. Imagine an accident on the south bound that is now traveling north. Emergency services may be stationed North of an accident and need to travel south to get to the scene. So they must travel surface strees to get South of the accident, enter the expressway system and then travel north to the scene. But which side of the expressway? If they are barriers or guard rails and the accident is in the "north bound" lane but all traffic is flowing North, which side does the caller really mean?

Thank you all. Glad to I joined this forum after lurking the site for so long.
"And now for something completely different" I won't ask another question but give something back: Starting next week my wife and I would lock ourselves in our basement-wannabe-not-quite-a-bunker for 5 days (7 if possible). For the rest of the world we'd be at my in-laws' cottage. There would be some cheating though... we have to take our dog to the backyard to do her business (not a complete test). But that only would be a few moments out of each day.
Apart from a cell phone to keep appearances up, the PC (my wife has 5 days off, I'm not, I work from home) and my trusty Grundig FR200 we'll be underground.
We decided to keep the TV unplugged since we'll have the PC. No electrical lighting, heating to a minimum (I have to keep the heating running upstairs or the pipes would freeze and burst, the wind chill is -23 Cº or -10 Fº as I write this).
The purpose it's to test the air quality, amount of food and water used, solar panels' real life test and... I'll be reporting on this Forum a log on what works and what doesn't.
And yes, we are nuts. Let's see how it goes <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great idea...

Post often, tell us about all the snafu's you encounter. You should probably start a new thread for this once you get started.

I'm looking forward to learning a lot from your experience.

Ben

make sure you don't forget seafty percousions. a CO detector would be nice if you stay in a confind space for instands....and make sure you don't get locked in...