How Much Is Too Much?

While designing a kit to fit a BDU leg pocket I was struck by how much Fire making tools I had included on a paper. There was a lot, matches, mini bic, firesteel, sparklite and a lot more, including various tinder's. So, I thought I'd ask here, how much is too much? Obviously if it takes room away from other valuable items, but assuming you have the space.

Another question is, what can anyone tell me about fire cards? I have seen them mentioned, but have found virtually no information on the net. Can survival information be printed on them? Or written on them with no loss of performance. Any info at all will be appreciated.

Thanks

Making fire can be really hard to do when you need it the most. My personal opinion is if you're going to duplicate only a single thing in your kit, it should be fire making tools. I'd want to have at least two or three at the minimum.

Assuming were talking wilderness scenarios here, when it comes to on-the-person kit, I usually only carry a fire-steel (on my knife sheath) and some PJ cotton balls. I might also have a mini-BIC in a pocket (especially when camping). If my gear for a given activity doesn't accommodate a belt knife well, it might end up in the pack so I'll usually only have a mini-BIC and maybe the PJ cotton balls (maybe not) on my person.

In my backup/emergency kit which rides in my pack, I'll also have a Spark-Lite & some Tinder-Quik tabs, some UCO storm-proof matches and another mini-BIC. This provides, in my opinion at least, a decent amount of capability/redundancy without much bulk or weight.

I think many would argue something that cuts is as important as something that makes fire.

Thanks everyone.

I was raised on the belief of having three different methods of making fire. I went far beyond that in my design. It's just on paper at this point so I can be very flexible right now.

I always have pocket items for survival when I leave the road, knife, matches, lighter, compass etc. This in addition to a survival kit and whatever my daily gear is.

Cutting is another area I went heavy on, skeleton knife, razor and x-acto blades, possibly a small but sturdy folder or micro multi tool.

I always carry redundant cutting tools, but if I was stripping down to the barest minimum weight or space, I would carry one really good knife and three ways of making fire. But that's my opinion, and goodness knows I'm far from the most qualified here.

I think I'll have room,if not then the first thing to go will be rations. I can live a lot longer without a Pure Protein bar then I can without a fire. The skeleton knife is a very good quality one.

I've found that many people on here are very knowledgable and have practical experience. A far cry from some forums I've visited where they had mainly book and second hand knowledge.

I have decided that for on-body "1st line" carry, I will have 2 independent firestarting tools and 2 forms of bombproof tinder.

Firestarters:
- a mini Bic set up like this. I make the inner tube carrier longer to protect more of the lighter and provide more tinder (see below).
- a compact ferro rod with a high magnesium content and a small striker

Tinder:
- some Tinder Quik tabs
- the bicycle inner tube I use to waterproof the mini Bic. Yes this requires an open flame.

I believe this setup to be extremely capable while being very light and compact. I think packing 4+ fire methods is overdoing it. When I see guys toting antiquated tools like char cloth and flint/steel sets I frankly think it is ridiculous. They have passed from smartly applying available technology into the realm of history re-enactors and fantasy. It's good to know the old ways but I'm not going to carry an old tool that weighs 10 times the modern tool but offers 1/10 the performance.

If they want to play-act like it's still 1823 then fine, but they shouldn't pretend that they're actually being reasonable.

More then a while back, I took a Sierra Club field course (Nature Knowledge or WBC) and they had invited a couple of SERE instructors to guest lecture/demonstrate. One of the things I remember from their lectures was the need for at least three cutting tools, three ways to make fire, and you can't have too much cordage.

The most reliable way I've found to make fire is synthetic tinder and windproof/water proof matches followed by ferrorod, followed by a flint (not piezo) Bic lighter.

EDIT: Back when I backpacked, I carries matches in a rigid case (crush resistant), SAK/MT, compass, whistle, pen light w/batteries, cordage, and space/all weather blanket for shelter in a 1L pouch. The pouch was either in an outside pocket of my main pack, clipped to my waist for river crossings in the event I had to ditch the main pack, or stuffed into a fanny pack for around camp and day hikes. I later added a 1/2L Platypus collapsible water bottle, potable Aqua tablets, and a mini-map to the pouch.

Great info Glock and Mark.
Thanks.
I kind of like the idea of a fanny pack survival kit for around camp and crossings.Right now I'm looking at the BDU unit because it should be so hard to lose. I'll be adding velcro to the pocket flap and with two buttons it should be secure.

I absolutely agree about the old fashioned methods and tinder. Char cloth with a flint chip and a steel striker, fat wood, not for me. Might be interesting in a campground or backyard but when I leave the pavement I want modern, surefire (no pun intended) tools and tinder.

Let's look at this question from the perspective of the 4 Priorities:

1) Shelter: one can usually be put together faster if one has the appropriate cutting tools for saplings, vines, etc.

2) Water: requires a vessel to hold the water if it's going to be purified by a filter, chemicals, or boiling (fire). In the case of boiling, a firestarter of any type is a good thing to have.

3) Food: a knife can be used to cut vines & lines; striker on a flint or ferrocium rod; a spear point, skinning/prepping; cooking.

4) Fire or a source of heat: a knife can strike sparks; can be used to prep tender & wood; can make firemaking tools, a bow drill or a trough. A firestarter of any kind is good to have.

IMO: a good sturdy knife(ves) is actually more important than a firemaking kit(s ) but I carry multiples of each kind of steel tool and of fire making means (call me "insecure")

Funny, I have been less than excited by matches since it is almost impossible to get proper strike-anywhere matches. Safety matches requires TWO things not to get lost and kept dry while keeping both separate. I haven't figured out a safe way to do it.

When I had sufficient quantities of strike-anywheres, I kept some upright and others upside-down in a waterproof case after I coated them in clear nail polish. In one of my moves, I lost the ammo case where I stored several boxes. The current strike-anywheres don't work as well. Not sure why.

Where does one store the safety striker in or near the match case?

I agree flint lighters and ferro rods are almost bombproof.

I typically carry two mini Bics, a ferro rod, striker, and tinder (Vaseline in cotton balls, and inner tube).

I keep one turned striking side out in the match case with the matches. I'm not worried about them igniting because they are packed tight enough it can't rub a match head and are in a metal case.

I put the flattened cardboard match box, which had the striker surface, in a poly bag loose in the stuff sack that held the rest of my kit. If I had to redo it, I would put the matches and lighter in a Witz small sport or ID case along with the tinder.

For my 72 hour kit, I keep the matches, tinder, hone, pocket knife, and spare flashlights in a Rubbermaid sandwich container. Sort of a poor man's drybox.

Assuming you will be walking with the kit in your leg pocket. Stuff in your leg pocket rubs on your leg. That get old really quickly.

As for fire; BIC lighter, ferro rod and matches is all I carry. Tinder is generally cotton wool with vaseline, tampons and occasionally chips.

I've been using the UCO Survival Matches product ... 15 storm-proof matches in case with the striker on the outside:



They also have a larger kit that contains 25 matches with a more robust case.

Also, if you haven't had a chance to play around with these UCO storm-proof matches I recommend getting some to try out. They will stay lit even if submerged in water.

The UCO matches are a basic part of all my kits. REI also produces this type of match (probably same factory, just different branding). They do require the striker, which must be protected from moisture, but they work very well in all conditions that I have tried them (blowing snow, blowing rain, heavy rain). They will not extinguish even when dunked, lit, in water. You can play with packaging to fit you particular kit form factor.

Another benefit of the REI matches is that while there is a striker surface on the outside of the cardboard box, they also include a couple extra strikers already encased in heavy gauge plastic for packing in your kits. This makes it safe to keep the matches and a striker together inside a waterproof container.

See lower right in this pic:

Do you mean this stuff? If so it's fantastic stuff! My review is the first one listed. I use the stuff virtually every time I build a bire.

What size inner tube is that?

Where do you live that you can't find strike-anywhere matches? They are all over the place (grocery stores, farm stores, hardware stores, etc.) here in the Midwest.

In the northeast, I have been able to find strike-anywhere matches only at ACE hardware (Diamond brand, I think). Everywhere else, only safety matches are for sale. They are not available at camping supply or general stores (REI, EMS, Walmart). I haven't checked AGWAY or Tractor Supply co.

I get the feeling (unsubstantiated) that the newer ones don't light as easily as the older strike-anywheres. I could be wrong.

It is a 700x23/25. The fit is perfect for the mini Bic.

The 700Cx23/25 will fit over a full sized Bic as well with a little stretching.

UCO ( the maker of the stormproof and REI matches)is coming out with strike any where matches. If they are as good as the storm proof matches, I will be happy. The quality of strike any where matches has greatly deminished over the years. The new "green" matches by Diamond Brand isn't worth spit in my opinion.I can only strike on the box reliably.Rumors abound on why they changed,but they are rumors.I miss ohio Blue Tips....


BOATMAN
John

I have to agree that the Strike Anywhere matches are not as reliable as the old matches.

I am glad to hear there will be another maker out there. I agree that the green matches aren't as good as the old blue tips were, but they are a heck of a lot better than safety matches. I can usually get them to strike on just about any rough surface at least.

I carry:

A fero rod
REI's storm proof matches
A few matches for stove starting and so on.
A small Bic lighter
Vaseline and cotton balls, preloaded and packed in a vial

This takes up little room and is very light weight.

Completed a SAR mission in June and located two hikers on the PCT
that were soaked completely through, had only strike anywhere matches and just about zero training on fire building. Training might be just as important as the gear.

Blake

www.outdoorquest.blogspot.com

Personally speaking for myself; training is more important than the gear because training also teaches one how to improvise as well.

Plus 10 for that one Wildman!

Phaedreus
Please post a link to your review of firecards if you would be so kind.

Wildman
Being prepared is far from insecure. Js,

Great tips everyone, Thanks.

We have strike anywhere here, and I prefer them. I do lke the storproof matches but they dont come with enough strkers for the amount of matches. I typicly put six in each kit I build. have longed for a strike anywhere version.

You could col the striker strip facing the case walls in a match safe, it works for me and thats how coleman packs thier matches and striker in the safes I buy at wal-mart.

How do all of you glue your striker strips to the inner lids of your kits? No glue I've tried so far works reliably long term. II cut the striker strip from coleman in half and using it's adhesive back to secure in out Altoid kits, but the strips get costly quickly.
Thanks.

Here, I'll copy the review from Amazon (I wrote it so presumably that's okay):

I purchased this fairly recently but given how well it's worked in several applications I feel I have to post a review. This stuff is pretty remarkable! I stumbled on it while viewing a video on youtube by PeakSurvival. Apparently this stuff is used by UK military units and is also found in Canada, but it's pretty hard to find stateside. I must say it's excellent. It's very rigid, which is nice for me since it survives being vacuum packed without being totally crushed. It seems to be impregnated with paraffin, although it smells a bit like beeswax when burned. It burns like a candle, giving good heat for quite a while. Yet if you take your time and really fray it up (ie. shred the end with a knife or peel it apart into layers) it will light pretty well with just a spark. I lit the stuff with a Spark-Lite.

Burn time is really superb. Under good conditions you could use a 1/4" x 1" piece to light a campfire- and you get six cards, each 4" x 8".

So many products are overhyped (eg WetFire) that it's really refreshing to find a product virtually unknown in the US market that performs this well. I intend to buy many more sheets for preparedness and camping/hiking kits. At the risk of spouting hyperbole, anyone creating a survival fire kit would be foolish not to at least consider including a couple square inches of Tinder Card. It's cheap, light, compact and effective.

Very good stuff! Worthy of five stars.

I will add that in the two years since I reviewed it there I've used the stuff virtually every time I've gone out. Really good stuff.

The firecards work well. Essentially similar idea to Spark Lite Tinder Quik, different form factor. They have both advantages and disadvantages compared with the Tinder Quik. How you pack stuff and carry it is more the determining factor than performance. I do find that the Tinder Quik is quicker and easier to fluff up and get ready to accept a spark. One reason I prefer it for my kits. Plus, Tinder Quilk is easier to find and typically less expensive.

I found Tinder Quik is a lot more water resistant than Tinder Card. I agree with your other observations.

Thanks Phaedreus, Doug and Brangdon. Very good review and info. I do use Tinder Quick in most of my kits when I have them on hand. I much prefer them to the Coghlans fire tabs. I'll be ordering some fire cards. I've also been looking at the little fire starters made by Zippo, they appear to be across between afire card and a tinder quick. And it looks as if they would fit nicely in the nooks and crannies of a PSK. One thing I used to do was use business card stock, print signals, morse and other tips on them then saturate with hot wax, making an information sheet and a source of tinder. Hence my inquiry if they could be written on. I'll have to update my information and print some more of them.

+1 to this. I really really love the Tinder Quik as well, but if you get it wet beyond a quick splash it soaks up water and won't light well. I once soaked some for five minutes and it was game over. But the Tinder Card is much more water proof. It is true that the TQ is easier to light without any tools; to light the TCard with a spark you really need to fray and fluff it. If you have a knife that's pretty easy; without a knife it takes some work.

One great thing about the T-card is that it can easily be cut with a sharp knife into shapes that fit wherever. For instance I will cut rounds of it and put them into the cap of my UCO Storm Match Case. I will also cut a few strips about 1/4" x 2" and stick then down among the matches. You can also cut a card to fit an Altoids tin.

The best solution IMOHO is to use multiple methods! I often vacuum seal Tinder Q and Tinder Card together in small mylar bags. Usually I even put a tablet or two of ESBIT 4g fuel in there with them.

Great idea Phaedreus!

I have mylar bags that sealed a couple years ago that still look like new. I have a couple that I have deliberately carried in my pack for a couple years with the idea of seeing how they hold up. So far so good.

I've had it burned into my brain to always have at least 3 forms for flame and 3 forms of tinder. For me, that means a BIC, a ferro rod and matches plus PJ cotton balls, fatwood and esbit tabs. There's a ferro rod in my of my fixed blades but I also carry at least two in my pockets when I'm out, have a lighter in all my cook kits, and also have a sparklite in my PSK. I add more in the winter. LOL!

Sometimes it seems like overkill, especially since we don't often have a campfire, but.....

I bought a box of stormproof matches this year just to see what all the fuss was about and HOLY COW those suckers work well!

We were in pretty close to desperate need of fire while on a hike this winter after bacpacboy fell into a creek. It was well below freezing, the wind was howling, there was snow and rain in the air, and all the firestarting materials we found were either soaked or frozen. To make matters worse, even without the dunking, my fingers were freezing and I had a hard time manipulating my BIC.

One strike of one stormproof match, a PJ cotton ball and some fatwood shavings started flawlessly and a driftwood platform. Then I added some split wood and built a twig fire above and we were enjoying hot chocolate and noodles while his gloves and socks dried beside our little fire.

I'm a fan of a good knife, but I think I might disagree and rate fire as more important. Georgraphical differences, perhaps.

I always include fire in each of these categories, Wildman:

Shelter = warmth and protection from the elements and fire is a big part of that most of the year here. I can usually find deadwood and vines to build a shelter without using my knife.

Water = fire makes potable water for me by boiling to disinfect or to melt snow or ice.

Food = fire for cooking, even if we're taking a stove and not a campfire.

Fire = signalling, protection, light, comfort....

I don't disagree with your thinking Bacpacjac.

When I was in the Great White North and the temp was -14F, a fire could be burning while I made a shelter. I'd take a break and warm up the hands over the fire. When the shelter was finished, I'd move the fire inside.

You really need both fire and shelter to be a happy camper, but shelter can often be found or slightly modified with little or no use of a knife. Natural shelters are typically rock shelters or cave entrances, uprooted tree balls, tangles of debris, or whatever. My best nights in the outdoors have been in nice airy rock shelters, with good rain protection, superior ventilation, a soft sandy floor, and a scenic view - better than any tent or cabin!

Add a fire and you are set.....

Any well equipped individual will carry a blade of some sort, and the means to start a fire, but I have carried redundant fire starters for years. The need for fire is absolutely critical

I think the other problem is how cold it really is and what level of humidity, a lot of poor fire lighting equipment works in good dry weather and then fails when you really need it i.e. when it gets cold or exposed to high levels of humidity.

That is precisely why I favor matches (good quality). They have worked for me in some pretty foul conditions (-40F). When it gets really dicey, you need good tinder, decent fuel, and a spot out of the weather to get a fire going. It also makes sense to carry a liquid fueled stove and cookset. They are dependable in really nasty conditions.

Some years ago, three of us were setting out on a SAR mission, starting at 10 PM with snowshoes - winter, ascending in deep snow, and quite cold. I had packed my stove and cook set. One of my companions asked what we had for fire - I produced my gear. he promptly included yet another similar set in his pack. We were all fine with the redundancy. As it happened, neither was actually used.

Hooray for redundancy, Hikermor!

I'm in the "you can't have enough" category, ever since I had an incident where two of my three fire starters didn't work. (Scouting drilled the "threes" into me, too.) The cotton balls didn't catch fire, because A) they weren't 100% cotton, and B) I'd put too much vaseline in them and I'd kept them smooshed in little zip bags. My matches got used up due to strong wind and rain, even when I was behind a large rock; and I couldn't get enough sparks out of my ferro rod because it was new and I wasn't as experienced with it. Thankfully, I had a Bic lighter and a packet of tissues to ameliorate the sodden cotton balls; but even then, I had a difficult time due to bad weather and lack of dry kindling. (Ended up digging up some dead branches from under a felled tree.)

Since then I've learned to use my ferro rod properly, carry twice the matches, and make sure that my cottonballs aren't soaked and are made from 100% cotton. I've also learned to carry fresh chemical hand warmers in my kit, because even when you have multiple ways to make a fire, it's really hard to do so when your fingers have gone numb!


--M

I carry spares -- matches and lighter-- in the FAK.

Are you sure that this is due to BOTH problems? I understand the need for 100% cotton.

I have yet to find a problem with TOO much vaseline. I keep the SOAKED vaseline cotton balls smooshed in little zip bags as well. When starting a fire, I take a bit and spend about 30 seconds fluffing it out as much as possible and then the fluffed out ball takes a ferro spark VERY easily and burns for quite a while.

I haven't tried this but I understand putting a bit of metal under the cotton ball will extend the flame even further since the melted petroleum jelly will not melt into the ground.

Am I missing something? Perhaps I am not trying the soaked cotton balls in sufficiently bad conditions that this error has yet to cause problems?

All's fair in survival! No such thing as cheating. I would suggest adding a few ESBIT tablets to your kit as well. They're very small (the 4gram ones are about the size of a peice of Dentyne chewing gun), waterproof and basically "immortal" as far as shelf life goes. They burn long and hot and can be scraped and lit with a ferro rod as well as with open flame.

As you say, redundancy!

Redundant, Robust, and Easily Usable

We should pack our gear for poor weather, worse conditions, and unforeseen accidents

I'm surprised to see that this thread is still on the board.I see some great discussions have taken place on it. I myself am a pyro when Im out. I carry a LOT pf fire making products in my pockets, pack and PSK. That's why I went so heavy on them when I was designing on paper and what prompted my query. I myself have always soaked my cotton balls in petroleum jelly. When I was a kid they were called Air Force fire starters and the article clearly stated they were SATURATED. I have never had a problem lighting them under any condition even though they were smashed. I have never attempted to ignite them with a fire steel however. I agree with matches being reliable, though they are frowned on these high tech days.

When we returned home we stopped at Wal-mart for groceries and I slipped off to sporting goods where I purchased a few items I notice the Coleman match case is now more red than orange. And that the quality of Stormproof matches seems to have gone downhill. Bent, split and even broken splints and the one I ignited did not seem to burn as long or as hot as they did before.
I finally found an Ultimate Survival Technologies item that did not disappoint me. It's a fire steel in a compact orange case that will be in my pocket gear when I wander off the pavement.

I treated myself and purchased an Exotac XL matchcase http://www.exotac.com/matchcap-xl/. It's pricey, but really well made and designed. (I know, spend 32 bucks to hold 2 bucks worth of matches?) It shields an interior striking surface from moisture - a unique feature AFAIK. I haven't had to use it yet for real, but I am pleased with it.

Exotac products seem to be well designed, and are definitely expensive, but in the right situations, look like the tool for the job. I have no affiliations with the company, other than being a satisfied customer...

I really like my Nanostriker. No affiliation.

Looks interesting. They make two sizes. I'm curious how you decided which to get? The big one obviously holds more matches, but the smaller one looks like it would more easily fit in a pocket?

The standard size will fit more easily in a pocket, but I typically carry my matches in my pack. The XL has room for tinder and other goodies. Either size should work fine.

Is the XL sized for the UCO and REI stormproof matches? It seems the standard is designed for strike anywhere matches...

BOATMAN
John

The exotec XL is 3.6 " long and takes REI stormproofs with room to spare. The regular size should take them as well - 3.6" long

Either size will hold UCO matches. I just loaded one of each a couple days ago. Two or three UCOs, some tinder & finished the fill with standard strike anywhere matches. To get a larger amount of matches in the smaller one, I limited the tinder in it to a piece of tindercard about 1/4 x 2.