Seven year E & E in an evil societal collapse

In 1938, Leo Bretholz, age 17 , fled, hid, crossed and recrossed national borders, was captured, escaped, recaptured, sent on the death train to Auschwitz, escaped again and finally fought the Nazis as a member of "La Sixieeme", a Jewish resistance group in France , until WW II ended in 1945. A seven year E&E in an evil hostile environment. He died March 8, 2014.
Bretholz's 1999 autobiography, "Leap into Darkness: Seven Years On the Run In Wartime Europe" , is a gripping textbook of survival in a European ( read Western Civilization), mostly urban , 20th Century world, gone collectively sociopathic.
If, heaven forbid, the SHTF in the U.S. or another Western nation, life is likely to be analogous to Bretholz 's 1938-1945 world. Forget your Mad Max, escape to wilds, live off the land scenario. This is the real deal.

Thanks, I've now got this one on my list of books to buy.

Bummer, no Kindle edition

Russ, thanx for the correction. Sorry that detail slipped past me. I'll make the correction.

I've got my copy ordered.

Not necessarily, this is the real deal as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1cM9wJo1Lc

With some more "real deal" detail on one of the partisan groups in Belarus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE46oEXXs58

When they finally disbanded, there were about 1200 men, women and children in their partisan band.

I am very familiar with the history of the Bielski Otraid. They were guerrilla partisans, who lived with the assistance , willing and unwilling, of the rural peasant farmers surrounding them and supplied and were supplied by Soviet (non Jewish) partisan groups. They were led, thank providence, by four very tough Jews , who were experienced as farmers, millers, woodsmen, fighters and smugglers , an honorable profession, just ask John Hancock and many of our other Founding Fathers.

Unknowingly, they followed Mao's dictum that the guerrilla lives as a fish supported by the sea of peasants, albeit they were neither communists nor socialists in the common understanding of those ideologies. The Otriad recreated a small industry based Jewish shtetl , in the midst of the forest, fought to defend it and saved more Jews than even Oscar Schndler. But, they did not live off the "land" as in the bug out fantasy scenarios we keep hearing from "survivalists".

I suggest to you two fine books detailing the history of the Bielski Otriad. The earliest academic history by Professor Tec, titled "Defiance". This book was the basis for the fine movie of the same name. Also, a much later work, that had additional sources available, titled, "The Bielski Brothers". Both read like adventure novels.

Recently, I was fortunate enough to attend a speech given by Aaron Bielski's daughter, speak with her after the speech and even page thru a family scrapbook. It was an amazing experience. By the way, Aaron is still with us, living a well deserved retirement in Florida.

I suspect historical situations probably give a more realistic idea of what a societal collapse might look like. After studying a few, I started thinking that perhaps how some survivalists imagine disaster to be has more to do with the fears in contemporary cultural undercurrents and with their view of the land/country. For example, very few are concerned with an invading army (or a domestic army that has "turned on" the people) -- common occurrences in the rest of the world that will be a real challenge to you and your self-reliant farm in the middle of nowhere.

Acropolis, I'm glad you got a chance to meet some members of the Bielskis. Those were some tough guys and gals.

Well said. That's why I love ETS and disdain many of "survival" sites that are primarily survivalist. I just don't think their ideas are realistic for the reasons you point out. They have this fantasy of living a secluded existence "off grid" where a couple rifles will magically protect them from the unwashed masses. That's probably not a viable position to hold. Likewise, speaking just for myself, I'm not sure I want to survive an "EOTWAWKI" situation. I like civilization quit a bit. Not sure if a hardscrabble existence living like an animal is worth it to me. Not permanently that is.

I agree-a very rational discussion, quite distinct from the usual survivalist rant. You guys are no fun at all......

I'm curious, what was Bretholz's life like up until age 17? I don't have kids, at least not yet, but I do think about how I would like to raise them.

I don't know a thing about Bretholz, but I'm just wondering what he was like before he was thrown into this long ordeal. A child raised to be a high functioning, productive member of a peacetime society could be the wrong type for a crazy, screwed up world that goes on for years.

He talks about growing up in Vienna
http://www.hoerspuren.at/en/viennese_memories.mp3


http://www.hoerspuren.at/en/viennese_memories.php

You must mean "turned" on the people, otherwise we'd all be happily going about our business...

edited for content...

And it's not ancient history yet.

Caveat: The flyers autheticity has not been confirmed and this may be the result of a fringe group with a Xerox instead of official policy.

http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-fliers-ordering-jews-register-2014-4



While Putin is not anti-semitic, Ukraine's right wing political group Svoboda is and has been gaining power in the Crimea following the invasion.

Edit - probably too much Political Content!

I just finished it. For some reason it took awhile to find it in the local public library.

Like much of history, it can never be repeated exactly but history does teach us that similar things happen repeatedly.

Like many such scenarios, a large measure of luck has to do with it. Also, as Amanda Ripley noted, survival is also a measure of a willingness and ability to take decisive action at critical moments (jumping out of a train heading toward Auschwitz); most other occupants declined to take action which is the most common reaction.

OTOH, Bretholz's survival was dependent on a feature of history not likely to be repeated. He was repeatedly able to obtain falsified documents. Nowadays, most documents can be scanned and the counterfeit documents easily determined. I suspect that document forgery will be a much more difficult task the next time it becomes necessary.

yee, I was also struck by the amount of random "luck" that Bretholz experienced. Although it seems preposterous to use the word "luck" to describe any part of his WW II tribulation.

I also concur with your observation that luck seems to favor those with the will to take action. Almost like an early proof for the new doctrine of "Run...Hide...Fight" now being prescribed as a response by ( potential ) victims in active shooter situations.

As to the ID issue in the future, it seems to me a hacker's challange. Time will tell.

>Respected citizens of Jewish nationality! Given that the leaders of the Jewish community of Ukraine support the Banderite junta in Kiev and are hostile to the Orthodox Donetsk Republic and its citizens, the Main Staff of the Donetsk Republic orders the following:

All citizens of Jewish nationality over the age of 16 who live on the territory of the sovereign Donetsk Republic must before May 3, 2014, appear before the Donetsk Republic commissar for nationality affairs in Room 514 of the government’s offices. The cost of registration is 50 US dollars.

This was instantly recognised as a scam no one believed.
qjs

Ukraine does have a considerable history of antisemitism, and stuff like this is taken very seriously. For reference: Between 1882 and 1951, there have been 3,437 African Americans lynched in the United States, and between 1917 and 1941 40,000 to 70,000 Jews were killed in pogroms in the Ukraine. Probably explains why my great grandparents made tracks for the other side of the continent shortly after 1900.

My sources:
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1979/2/79.02.04.x.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Ukraine

Well,..., It's off to the library again! Sounds VERY interesting.

Defiance is an excellent book and Ray Mears aproaches what they went through from a survival view in one of his shows. Fascinating.

http://youtu.be/b1cM9wJo1Lc

qjs

There is an excellent 1986 documentary called "Partisans of Vilna" (Vilna is Vilnius, Lithuania, today). It is 130 minutes long, and documents the escapes from the ghetto, obtaining weapons, attempts to set up a defense of the ghetto, the formation of Jewish partisan bands by the escapees, and such things as the politics/fear by locals of "armed Jews" and the pressure by the Soviets to comply with their instructions.

Vilna (Vilnius) was one of the largest centers of Jewish culture in Europe before WW2. There are few if any Jews left there today.

The movie is very hard to find. I assume it may be on-line somewhere, (I saw a note on IMDB that it is available on Itunes). If you can find it, I highly recommend it.

You can get it for $33 from http://www.partisansofvilna.org/buy.html on DVD. Way more expensive on Amazon. Not available on eBay, iTunes, or for download anywhere I could find.

you've hit on a common theme ... BUT hold on.
There seems to be some kind of assumption that a few million people in the USA can just load up their trucks, SUV's and Jeeps and head out to Idaho. Or places like that.

Is that really true?
Last time I checked - there are ALREADY people living in the forests and woods of Idaho. And although it might look like there's a lot of open space up there - there are also plenty of people who are more than willing to DEFEND it.

I'm suggesting that the idea that we can randomly INVADE all the national forests, parklands, and "desolate areas" is a bit more farfetched than we would like to believe. Want your own space ... you might be fighting a lot of other people to get it.

Does this make sense?

Pete

You bet it does, at least to me.

Actually, having JUST finished Defiance about the Bielski Partisans, history does have a guide. I believe Belorussia has been contested territory for two World Wars in the 20th century alone. I am not familiar with the details but there were likely several older wars as Russia and Poland had a penchant for invading each other every few years during the 18th and 19th centuries.

In partisan brigades involved in combat (against each other, Polish Government-in-exile in London, USSR, Germans) fatalities ranged between 30-50%

In the Bielski otriad, in which there was as little combat as would be tolerated by the Soviets, there was an estimated 5% fatality rate and this was in a rural area (not desolate: farmland) in which two MAJOR armies and three governments contested the real estate.

It would appear that the Bielski defense plan would be to have sentries fire upon incoming enemy from a position several kilometers from the main camp. The sound of the weapons would allow the otriad to fade into the forest in guerrilla fashion rather than direct combat. The sentries lives would be sacrificed to give time for the otriad to escape. For a determined push, Bielski led his people deep into the swamp where Germans would likely go and hid on an island. How this would play out with modern imaging and satellites, I'm not sure.

The issue is how to FEED the up to 1200 people of the Bielski otriad. They did it by raiding neighboring peasants and retributions to those that betrayed Jews to the Germans. The apparent main purpose of firearms in the Bielski otriad was not for combating Germans but for raiding neighboring peasants for food. I suggest that this is NOT the "hearts and minds" treatment that Mao suggested earlier in this thread. I am not sure how Bielski pulled this one off. Perhaps the peasants had MULTIPLE forces, German and Soviet, to contend with that Bielski was able to feed his people without being betrayed to the Germans. Certainly what happened is not the typical imagined TEOTWAWKI scenario.

It would appear that larger groups such as the Bielski partisans fared better than smaller family sized groups. How many is required for a sufficiently large group, Tec's book does not explore.

BTW, the older book by Tec appears to be a better researched book than Duffy with a far superior bibliography with research using extensive primary sources (interviews, many of which were conducted by Tec herself).

What this has to do with a similar scenario in the USA is anyone's guess but as always, the winners and survivors will tell the tale. I suggest that LUCK has a lot to do with it but luck tends to favor the prepared.

yee: The Bielski Otriad did in fact, if not in pure theory, act like Mao's guerrillas, fish floating in the sea of peasants. One major maxim of the guerrilla is to become the government or at least the nighttime government of its area of operations. Think of the VC in then South Vietnam. Government levies " taxes". In this case , taxes in kind, food. They also traded with the peasants. Some farmers and professionals, non-Jews for the most part, supported them out of hatred for the Germans or nationalistic sentiment or based upon personal pre- war friendships or for ideological reasons. The peasants probably sequentially paid taxes to the day government, the Germans, as well. Remember the discussions between Tuvia and the Soviet commanders dividing up territory from which thy each could make exactions from the residents., to avoid resentment and overtaxation As governments, the Otriad , the Soviet partisans and the Germans, punished treason or treachery by the population. Hence the aggressive raids and the kill and burn missions described in both books.

As to which was the better book, I argue for a tie. Professor Tec's book was a marvelous academic history, underwritten by grant funding the Professor was able to string together. As a much earlier work and due to her expansive knowledge of the common languages, she got to interview more living participants. But, she did not get it all correct, e.g. She totally dismissed the maturing role of Aaron Bielski. She also did not go into great detail on the interrelationship with the Soviet Partisans and Command. That may not have been important since her goal was to record the sheer miracle of the Otriad's accomplishments. Also, for some unexplained reason, she did not discover the handwritten history, written in Yiddish, by Tuvia, in 1955 and deposited with the YIVO Institute in NYC. Access to that document was a prime reason that Duffy could write, so much later, but in great detail and in such a personal voice. I like to think of both books as compliments to each other.

Lastly, one of the most ironic facts of the whole history was the life arc of Tuvia. He rose from a shady farmer, smuggler, tough guy, womanizing social climber to a near messianic savior of his people, back down to disillusioned cab driver, making small living....And lo the mighty are laid low. In my conversation with Aaron's daughter, she recounted her family's many Sunday dinners at the " Uncles' " (Tuvia and Zus) homes, when she was a little girl. She is now 60ish. She said that often complete strangers would come in, dressed in their best clothing, introduce their families to the Uncles, then literally kiss the Uncles' hands in thanx for saving them and making their families possible and then they would leave the Bielskis to their dinner. How many of us can even dream to be worthy of such respect and adulation, despite our personal failures?

Defiance is on BBC 2 tonight at 9pm.

qjs

Thanks for the tip!

The link to the Ray Mears program on their story from a survival point of view is just 10 posts up.
You'll see no one seemed interested when I posted it originally; though that was the aspect I thought the story was on this web site for.

qjs

The link to the Ray Mears program on their story from a survival point of view is just 10 posts up.
You'll see no one seemed interested when I posted it originally; though that was the aspect I thought the story was on this web site for.

qjs

I beg to differ. At least I was interested.

As result of this thread, I saw Ray Mears' program, the movie as well as read two books on the subject.

Glad you enjoyed it yee. Just when I posted the link originally it got nil comment. Maybe I was late to the table; I hadn't realised everything is on youtube. And eeryone else had already seen it.

qjs

for long-term survival you have got to have the support of the community where you live. that's one reason why people espousing very radical and extreme views are unlikely to succeed over very long time period - they risk alienating their local communities (let alone the folks living in the capital of the country).

Pete

Pete,

Thanks for this insight! For me, it poses an answer to a question that has been bothering me since I found out about the Bielski's. This lead to a wider reading about the rise of Nazism and the Warsaw Ghetto.

Specifically, during the early 30's, there was increased exodus of Jews from Germany. However, Judenrats were formed which largely espoused cooperation with the Nazi's. Even when leaders were executed and new Judenrat leaders were appointed, there was a feeling that things could only get better when the evidence was (in retrospect) clearly in the other direction. Those who attempted escape from the ghettos were suppressed by both the Nazis and the Judenrat leaders.

It would appear that humans are wedded to the status quo and maintaining the approval of peers. It is only in retrospect that the Bielski's were shown to be right and the majority wrong.
In today's terminology, the Bielski's were clearly "terrorists" that need to be caught.

This, however, gives very little guidance for the NEXT time that it happens except for the dictum "survivors survive" and the need for community based preparation.

My town doesn't do too badly. During Hurricane Sandy/Irene and recent power outages, the school (on generator) was opened as a community center complete with entertainment for the kids, internet for the parents, school cafeteria for food/water and showers in the school gym, MRE's available. Short of complete civil disorder like Katrina, we are prepared. The system has been tested three times in recent years and each response was better than the last; there is nothing like the real thing to test preparations.

I suspect that my town is NOT prepared for Fukushima (important since we are between TWO nuclear reactors). Given prevailing winds, I THINK I am downwind of one of them most of the year. I am definitely within the NRC 50 mile evacuation radius of both.
I have told my wife to go North using secondary roads that I don't expect to be too congested but a rendezvous location has yet to be determined. If I am at work, I would have to stay tight since NYC is can not be evacuated.

Hopefully, we will never get tested on complete civil collapse.

The experiences of the Bielskis is informative. But the movie "Defiance" is, ummh, not so. I think I have recommended before (probably in this thread) the documentary video "Partisians of Vilna." "Vilna" now called Vilnius, the capital of the now independent Lithuania, was a major center of Jewish culture and a large part of the city was Jewish before WW2. The Germans captured the city, and created a ghetto. Some chose to run to the forest to survive; some stayed in the Ghetto. People living in a "civilized" city suddenly are faced with stark survival choices.

The documentary traces what happened to both groups, those who stayed and those who ran and fought; the problems they faced and conflicts they had.

IMO, it is about as close an analogy to how we live today as I can find (the Bielskies were a very rural based group), and the choices we might have to make, and problems we might face if all goes wrong.

Hard to find, but I highly recommend it.

Both groups faced stark survival choices. The answer to the question of who was right is only apparent in retrospect as almost all who decided to stay, died. At the time, the recommendations from LOCAL Jewish leaders as well as the CENTRAL government was to stay.

It would appear that only the massively irresponsible ran. They risked their own lives as well as the lives of their families and their community. Some who ran survived.

Only SOME of those who ran and survived wrote about it. I am uncertain as to the actual numbers who tried to run but died in the forest.



In terms of rural/city, even the city folks were not living in major metropolis' like NYC, Paris, LA. Most "cities" were more akin to towns and much more accessible to the rural areas by other-than-motorized transportation.

I have tried to find this documentary without success.

The DVD is available on Amazon (no affiliation)

http://www.amazon.com/Partisans-Vilna-Ro...isians+of+vilna

And a tip of the hat to chaosmagnet who put me on track to find it earlier in this thread.

When I began this thread, I never thought it would generate this much interest. Especially not such well thought out commentary. My admiration to all.

My thanx to all who posted about "Partisans of Vilna" . I just ordered it myself.

I just re-read the thread and a question came to mind. How many of us, especially those with cultural/ ethnic/ religious connections to the Holocaust, consciously or unconsciously , find ourselves making "run away" preps? I'm not talking about disaster preps or a BOB. I'm thinking about keeping cash/ gold /jewels/passport handy. Having a "family assemble" code, e.g. "Alas Babylon". Knowing the route to Canada/Mexico/wherever, not because we ever think we'll have to run, but "just-in-case"? Never quite feeling secure or accepted in the larger society?

These are the feelings and actions that some of the survivor parents & grandparents of my childhood friends felt and acted upon. I'm wondering if it carried through to the next or next two generations? Anyone care to share or comment?

I don't have any actual connections to the Holacaust but I've had that feeling all my life. I always have a bag ready to go and escape routes, just in case.

My feelings strengthed after the train derailment in Laurel, Ms on 14Feb1968. That occurred several blocks from my home. That was the first time I had to leave home in a big hurry (an explosion every minute) and it was my first experience with martial law being laid down (for a couple of days).

My grandmother escaped from what became East Germany by the skin of her teeth; everyone else in her family was murdered in the Holocaust. My grandfather on that side had a similar experience escaping Russia (although obviously it wasn't the Nazis murdering his family).

I didn't know to call it a "Bug Out Bag" until much later in life but I've had one since I was about ten years old. Including things like cash and passport.

However to bws48's original questions, I've never felt all that insecure or unaccepted in larger society due to my heritage.

The other component of it for me relates to my screen name. Ever since I can remember, odd and awful things happen around me. Not (usually) because of me, but around me nevertheless. So I learned how to handle crises out of self-defense. Preparing for them now is second nature.

The other component of it for me relates to my screen name. Ever since I can remember, odd and awful things happen around me. Not (usually) because of me, but around me nevertheless. So I learned how to handle crises out of self-defense. Preparing for them now is second nature.

My shipmates used to refer to the area around me as the "Bo Zone". The " Bo Zone " is a circle more than 50ft from me and less than a 1/2 mile from me. In the Bo Zone, cars collide and go flying through the air and land on pedestrians, a person has blown himself up in a small truck (both in NOLA), fire fights break out, and all kinds of other things go wrong. No wonder I had an interesting and unusual USCG career for a Quartermaster!

I wonder if the airedales I have flown many missions with were aware of the Bo Zone. Of course, aircraft are small so the air crew and aircraft were all within the 50ft radius.

I used to be called a bullet magnet in the Army. Wherever I went, things happened, but like you, I just happened to be present.

I have been in an unusually high number of natural disasters.

IT personnel used to tell me I had some sort of electrical field around me that harmed computers and caused them to do strange things. They would tell me that I did not do anything wrong, there was just a weakness in the system somewhere and I always seemed to find it. One even offered to do all of my computer work for me. He said it would be less work for him than fixing them for me all the time.

Maybe it is all in my head, but it has caused me to prepare for the unexpected and worst case scenarios.

For different reasons, my DW and I are on the same page.
She lost much of her family in the holocaust; her Mom "went to the forest" (partisans) and survived. That and growing up in the USSR (with unpredictable supplies of anything and everything) produced a strong tendency to "stock up" and not throw anything out that "we might need."

For me, I've been in enough situations where everything was OK, then it seriously wasn't, and I got through it mostly by dumb luck that one day I really woke up and started to get ready. And that includes bugging out, which I had to do in Washington DC in 1968 due to the riots that caused my university to totally shut down-- could not stay in Dorm and the cafeteria closed. We always consider having to leave a possibility.

My entry to prepping was SAR in Arizona for more than twenty years. Basically you needed to keep a back pack equipped for two days or so and adjusted for the prevailing conditions on the surrounding desert or the adjacent mountains 7000 feet higher. That and I periodically undertook field work in fairly isolated conditions where food and medical support were not handy. Prepping was and is just prudent behavior.

chaosmagnet > odd and awful things happen around me

wildman800 > odd and awful things happen around me

montanero > I used to be called a bullet magnet in the Army. Wherever I went, things happened, but like you, I just happened to be present.
I have been in an unusually high number of natural disasters.

bws48 > I've been in enough situations where everything was OK, then it seriously wasn't, and I got through it mostly by dumb luck

hmmmm... think i'm spotting a pattern in this forums members. I'm a Jonah too.
tip for those of you who didn't burn the wrong witch in a past life: if we have a forum party where you can be with all of us in one place. Don't turn up!
qjs

I'll turn up. Just stay within 50 ft of me.

I am the King of the weird, strange, and unusual! If it can happen on a watch, it will happen on my watch!