Invisible help in Survival Situations?

Hello, Preppers.
I would like your opinion on something I have been curious about for a while. When you are in the wilderness, or even lost and in a true life-or-death situation, do you consider faith a good thing, or a bad thing? I am not willing to disclose my beliefs, because I feel that I would be a minority. I do not see faith as beneficial in a physical sense (praying for fire will not make one appear), but if it helps you to get through your struggle, I see it as beneficial. I am not singling out any one belief. So, I guess what I am asking is: Does your faith help you through situations? Or do you believe that two hands working accomplishes more than two hands clasped in prayer? If this is too controversial of a topic, Moderators, feel free to delete it. As long as there is no bashing, I don't feel that it shouldn't be discussed.

Interesting topic. I suspect you will get a wide range of answers on this topic. I think I would have to say that religious faith has had a minor or no role in emergency situations in which I have been involved or have witnessed. There is basically a whole lot of randomness out there - sometimes things break for you, sometimes against you.

I would describe myself as a non church attending individual who tries, imperfectly to be sure, to adhere to basic Judeo-Christian principles, the ethical matrix in which I was reared. Tolerance and respect for other traditions are important.

In a lot of survival stories with good outcomes the person or persons involved had something to their spirits up and to help them stay in a positive mindset.

So I would say that anything that helps keep your moral up is a good thing provided you also do the practical things as you mention.

The subject line led me to think we're supposed to be talking about stuff like the Third Man syndrome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Man_factor

Well, I, myself, am not a religious person, however I respect all faiths. I will not argue against someone that finds comfort in believing in any god(s). I am a "do'er" so I personally (do not take offense) see prayer as unhelpful, but it is comparable to fire, in the fact that it may boost one's morale and their will to survive. I find my will to survive in my family. So, whether you believe in the Judaeo-Christian God, Vishnu, Bhudda, Allah, or Thor, if it keeps your spirits high, I advocate it. However, if you are in a survivable situation (referring to someone that has no survival experience) and you only pray, I believe that may help more than hurt. This is my opinion, and I would like to hear your opinion as well, Please don't feel offended if I said something you may disagree with.

I think the question can also be asked "faith for what?" Personally, when I pray, meditate, or whatever, what it allows me to do is to slow down for a few moments. In those moments my mind can rearrange and reprioritize. It also allows for a bit of a catharsis. All of which can help clear the initial "shock" out.

So, I would say that to use the term generically, faith is a good thing.

Hi, MoBOB. I moved to MO in August, so I went from IlRandy, to MoRandy. I don't pray or meditate, but I do take the time to relax and set myself straight. I have alot going on at the moment, with school and trying to find a job, and I often need to just take the time to relax and sort things out.

I keep searching for a "like" option on your guys' posts.... I spend too much time on facebook.

I'll take learning skills and being prepared over faith in some higher power to deliver me. I do think positive thinking and a fierce will to survive is crucial, but these things come from within, not without (IMOHO).

Spiritually I would characterize myself as not particularly superstitious.

Phaedrus, I am quite like yourself. I am atheist, and I have always thought that faith is potentially harmful in certain occasions, but as I stated before, I have nothing against it. I have always thought two hands working accomplishes more than two hands clasped in prayer. I am not one who usually brings up religion, but I know alot of people benefit from it.

I have no real problem with religion provided it doesn't get in the way of spirituality...if that makes sense. Normally I don't discuss religion unless someone else brings it up. It often upsets people. If someone specifically asks me then I'll explain why I have a rational, naturalistic worldview.

Overall I think you're right- two hands working gets more done than two hands clasped in prayer. Even religious people allude to that in sayings like "the Lord helps those who help themselves." Faith could be a comfort during a survival ordeal, but then so could your knowledge of survival. In either case, fortune favors the prepared.

A lot of "authorities" have stated that the will to survive is the most important determinant of a survival situation - more significant than gear or even skills and there are lots of examples to support that opinion. I think particularly of one survivor in the Arizona desert who lost 25% of his body weight to dehydration (10% is usually fatal) and still pulled through.

I wonder if that's the guy I heard Myke Hawks talking about on Discovery yesterday. (An analysis of an episode of "I Shouldn't Be Alive") Apparently he did absolutely everything wrong, shouldn't have survived, but did. Why? Because he was in the middle of a divorce and didn't want her to get all his stuff.

One can believe in the supernatural or one can believe that something inside one's self gives people special strength in times of need. I am not sure it makes much difference where it comes from.

Read "Deep Survival". The author addresses this issue directly, and has actually found that people with religious faith do tend to have a higher chance of survival. He believes that it is a motivating factor to not give up trying. People who take charge and care for others also tend to not give up.

Different incident, dating from 1905. Here are the gory details:

In August of 1905, a wandering prospector named Pablo Valencia departed Wellton and headed south into the desert in pursuit of a lost gold mine. He was about forty years old, 155 pounds, rode a good horse, and carried along with him two two-gallon and two one-gallon canteens, for a total of six gallons of water, along with plenty of bread and sugar and cheese and coffee and tobacco and a sort of wheat meal called pinole. The first day he rode thirty-four miles and reached the spot near the southern tip of the Gila Mountains where the trail from Wellton intersected with the Camino del Diablo. Just to the west, a steep slope led up to a place known as Tinajas Altas, or High Tanks, where eroded stone basins usually contain pools of rainwater runoff. Tinajas Altas is the only semireliable water source along the Camino, and Valencia refilled his canteens there. As it happened, a self-taught geologist named WJ McGee had set up a camp nearby, working on a summer long project to monitor the heat and humidity of the surrounding desert. The two men dined together on jerked mountain-sheep meat before Valencia saddled up again and rode east.
Eight days later, just as dawn broke, McGee heard an inhuman sound, like the roaring of a lion, near his camp, and followed it to its source. He later described what he found in a paper called "Desert Thirst as Disease," which ran in a 1906 issue of the Interstate Medical Journal.
Valencia, who just the week before had been "of remarkably fine and vigorous physique — indeed, one of the best built Mexicans known to me," was now "stark naked; his formerly full-muscled legs and arms were shrunken and scrawny; his ribs ridged out like those of a starveling horse; his habitually plethoric abdomen was drawn in almost against his vertebral column; his lips had disappeared as if amputated, leaving low edges of blackened tissue; his teeth and gums projected like those of a skinned animal, but the flesh was black and dry as a hank of jerky; his nose was withered and shrunken to half its length; the nostril-lining showing black; his eyes were set in a winkless stare, with surrounding skin so contracted as to expose the conjunctiva, itself black as the gums; his face was dark as a negro ... his lower legs and feet, with forearms and hands, were torn and scratched by contact with thorns and sharp rocks, yet even the freshest cuts were as so many scratches in dry leather, without trace of blood or serum; his joints and bones stood out like those of a wasted sickling, though the skin clung to them in a way suggesting shrunken rawhide used in repairing a broken wheel. From inspection and handling, I estimated his weight at 115 to 120 pounds ... The mucus membrane lining mouth and throat was shriveled, cracked, and blackened, and his tongue shrunken to a mere bunch of black integument."
In the long history of people running out of water on the Camino del Diablo, there are two things that make the case of Pablo Valencia unusual.
First is the fact that WJ McGee, such a meticulous observer, was there to chronicle it.
Second is the fact that Valencia survived and eventually recovered.

I have visited the Tinajas Altas and the climb up to the water is a fairly gentle incline up which one can stroll with hands in one's pockets - when one is well hydrated on a nice day, that is.....

Hmmm...."Camino del Diablo"....my Spanish is rusty but does that mean Devil's Road?

While I've had a few interesting trips to desert regions, I think I will continue to devote most of my efforts to more northern climes. Hypothermia seems like a better way to go.

Regarding the OP, in a survival situation anything that helps one to keep trying, and to not give up will help keep you alive. There have been countless stories of people who have done everything wrong, had little or no proper gear, yet still managed to pull through. Conversely, there are lots of cases of people who had plenty of gear and other resources yet who perished.

The difference is often just some combination of determination, positive attitude, etc, which end up being what we call "the will to survive". This can come from any number of things. This can come from religious faith, self confidence, not wanting to leave one's kids without a parent, sheer cussedness, or any number of things. Whatever works for you is a good thing.

Being lucky helps too!

Never underestimate the power of luck, and don't quit because you just might get lucky!

Si..verdad! You comprende Spanish very well for an Alaskan...The Devil's Road was named early, but really earned its title during the California gold Rush of 1849, when the way was marked by fresh graves and abandoned goods. Conditions vary drastically with the seasons. Stay away during the hotter months and visit during the winter, when the climate is truly delightful. On one of our trips, we had to deal with rainfall, finding out that the roadway was also the streambed over long stretches. These days, be wary of unexploded ordnance since it is a target range for military jets.

I think that spiritual faith can be an important factor - but the question could be ... is your faith strong enough to be relevant - even when you are in dire circumstances. Practically, if your faith can cause you to become mentally stronger, and perhaps also calmer, it might improve your survival chances a lot. This was just discussed on another thread ... that when people are lost it's a really good idea for them to STOP, calm down, and re-think what's going on. Faith can be a very helpful factor in that process - but human behavior is what "it is" and it's diffcult for people to think spiritually when they feel directly threatened.

In addition, you may feel that faith is relevant in summoning "Help from the Outside" or "Help from Above". That's very much a personal point of view.

Pete2

I am also of a minority faith in ETS

My devotion means a very deep relation with the higher power

It is interesting that in a survival situation or bad times anyway, it doesn't seem that the "official" details of a certain faith that are important, but rather one's approach to that faith.

I have seen people who are 10 times more holy-book thumping than me, 100 times more praying than me, but in case of a localized micro-SHTF siuation, they freak out and forget it all.

Faith has helped me many times but not in very different way that some described above. I do believe in my own training and wisdom to handle the situation, but faith fills that gap as a human does what is humanly possible ( and then leave the outcome to God). Soe can call it compromise or whatever, but I have felt relaxation and satisfaction many times when things worked out or didn't. I am satisfied that I did what I could, and at the same time, I know that I don't know everything in the universe, so what may appear today as a bad thing, may turn out tommorrow as the best thing that ever happened.

I know one person who has completely abdicated responsibility for practically everything in her life. The higher power she believes in, she says, will take care of everything. Frankly I can't stand to be around her and I try mightily to avoid interacting with her.

Others I know have a deep and abiding personal faith but also accept responsibility for their actions and for solving life's challenges. It seems to me that they gain inner strength from their faith, helping them emotionally through difficult times. These sorts of people tend to be of the sort that I enjoy spending time with, even though I do not share their faith.

Trying my best NOT to stereotype, but I find many people of this view of (whatever) faith. These people generally adhere to texts and rituals without trying to utilize such rituals to strengthen their inner selves.

I have told one of them in my community that it is them who cause others ( stereotypically younger generation ) to drift AWAY from faith ( regardless of which faith it is ).

Back to survival.
Faith AFAIK does not strip us from our responsibilities or capabilities. It just says that our decisions and deeds should follow some guidelines.

An interesting point here seems to do with some religious restrictions. For example, some faiths impose food/diet restrictions on thier followers. It is inetresting to think of such restrictions as positive or negative for survival.

I saw this thread this morning, and I was going to pass on it because it looked like the discussion was faith vs. survival skills. It looked like a straw man argument, as it is easy to have both. When I got home from work, I revisited the thread and was glad to see some excellent and respectful comments.

It seems to me that there is an innate desire in humans to seek a higher power. This spiritual need transcends time, culture, race, and geography. Is it a spiritual energy, a 'soul' that searches?

Religion is mankind's flawed attempt to recognize (and yes, even capitalize) on this innate desire. Marx ridiculed it as the 'opiate of the people'. As some have stated here, there are people who misunderstand, manipulate, or use religion to get power and wealth to the point where is does indeed impede spirituality.

Why do I belabor this point? Because I believe that it is this innate spirituality that helps pull a person through difficult times. It doesn't matter if it's a severe medical challenge, loss of a spouse, or a true survival situation. With all due respect, I believe that some reject God because acceptance would require behavior modification. I also believe that some atheists seek a higher power, and may have been disappointed along the way by organized religion. To quote the old BST rock classic, "I'll swear there ain't no heaven, but I'll pray there ain't no hell"

It seems to me that WWII placed many into harms way and a survival situation. While I don't have any combat experience, I know of someone who does. President Dwight D. Eisenhower in remarks broadcast from the White House as part of a February 7, 1954 speech quoted "There are no atheists in foxholes".

For respectful discussion, why would a self-avowed atheist start a thread like this if not searching and hoping to be persuaded?

Being Catholic, part of my faith is to always choose life over death. With that in mind, I will fight to survive rather than resign myself to death. I don't expect prayer to bring God flying in to rescue me in a time of dire need. But he expects me to keep trying to fight to stay alive and that, for me, is a strong help in itself. I do not wish to fail my Lord.

-Blast

This pretty much sums up my view. no idea who the originator is but it's not mine.

I have faith in something outside of myself, but that higher power isn't going to do diddly if I just sit on my duff and wait to be saved. I have a responsibility to my family to actively take part in preventing and conquering the challenges I face. I have faith that whatever that outside force is will give me the edge as long as I do my best and don't give up.

anyway, here's the story:

Tere's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

They send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time"

To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide"

About an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof.. "Quick" they say, get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better.

"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

He drowns of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with god for drowing him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"

Apropos of nothing that quote drives me up the wall! There are indeed many atheists in foxholes! In fact there's an organization of military atheists that shares my annoyance at that untrue but oft-repeated notion.

Some people embrace the notion of some deity or high power because they view the fact there may not be one to be unbearable. But argument from consequences is one of the most basic logical fallacies, well known to any novice debater or student of logic. Respectfully, faith born solely out of fear has to be the weakest kind of faith possible.

I really am fascinated with religion; I'm on record as having said many times over the years that we learn more about ourselves as a species from the study of our mythology than we do from psychology. So for the record, my enthusiasm for studying religion and engaging in conversations derives from intellectual curiosity, not a desire to "convinced" to come around to belief in things not supported by reason or evidence.

All that said, I have no problems with religious people, so long as they respect my rights not to believe. I think that's the most important thing, that we all have enough respect for each other to let people live their own lives as they choose.

Sorry for the long quote but that's one of my favorite all time jokes!

For respectful discussion, why would a self-avowed atheist start a thread like this if not searching and hoping to be persuaded?

I am tired writing this, and have had to put up with alot before writing this, so feel free to suspend me if I say anything offensive. I do not find help in any faith, as anything you can do with your faith, I can do without it. I find my motivation not through a deity, but through my own inner convictions. I too have a problem with "There are no Atheists in foxholes". There are many atheists in foxholes, except they value life, in the sense they do not believe they have another one. Technically, any atheist here is in a "foxhole" because they don't know the dangers that lie ahead of them, thus they prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.

Phaedrus: I am glad you are atheist. I respect all faiths and beliefs, but I know such few atheists. I don't want to make this thread about atheism, but it's nice to meet you.
It's nice to know all of you, actually. You are all great people.

This thread has taken a really weird turn. Let me remind the participants that this forum isn't for proselytizing, or for asking to be proselytized to. Some atheists are just as bad and as close-minded as their arch-nemesis, the Christian fundamentalists, about this sort of stuff. Don't be them.

Maybe we can make this thread more productive: what specific spiritual techniques would you recommend to achieve calmness, clarity, strength, etc., in a survival situation?

One thing that I can recommend is to meditate upon the figure who represents the very essence of the quality that you want. It doesn't matter who it is, but that figure just has to stand for that quality in your mind. So atheists can meditate upon Richard Dawkins if they want to attain, say, some clarity of scientific reasoning in figuring out where they are on the topographical map. In my experience this sort of stuff is not magic, but when performance matters, you want to be 100%, and not the 50% you are often reduced to in an emergency.

If you meditate regularly, you can focus your mind more efficiently, and as a consequence you can achieve greater performance. Meditation does require practice, so I'm not sure that you should start when you're up the creek without a match or water.

Now, I have never been up the creek without a match or water, so I can't say that meditation helps. I talk better, think better, fight better, and shoot better after focusing mentally, for sure. Maybe some real survival experiences are called for here. There are some archeologists amongst us, right? Hikermor? Do indigenous people have spiritual practices that give them an edge in survival situations? Can we, in our modern cultural environment, make use of these practices?

As for divine help, if anyone knows how to call in, urh, an "air strike," whatever religion you believe in, please let us know. That seems like a useful skill.

In other words, I'd encourage you to think of spiritual resources as "technology" or "equipment." After all, this is "Equipped to Survive." If you can make use of something, why not.

May the Force be with you.

I am Blessed by God and Jesus and I'm extremely grateful.

I think that the "STOP/Cuppa" strategy is similar to meditation! Really, stopping to brew a cup of hot tea when your realize you're lost is calculated to calm you down and prevent you from running thru the woods in a blind panic.

I'm curious what helped those who survive truly harrowing ordeals. Do you folks remember the woman who was stranded in the family van for over two months? IIRC she had a bag of trail mix and access to a stream. We all know that most rescues are affected within the first 72 hours...what would go thru our minds at hour 100? 200? Two weeks? Two months? A religious person might be preparing to meet their maker at that point, and an atheist reflecting on their life and preparing themselves to die in their own personal way. Both might leave some note or record to be found after their death. Would religion or lack thereof affect the chances of survival? I honestly don't know. Knowing myself I'd have succumbed to the distinctly male need to "do something" well before the beginning of the 2nd month!

How much steam does this thread have left? I sense we're already veering off into an area that makes people uncomfortable. I myself have received one PM from someone I've offended. I apologized via PM and repeat that apology here. Some people find the subject inherently offensive, and I guess that's why religion and politics are generally banished from the dinner table around Thanksgiving!

I'll bow out of this thread now, and just want to say that I have the utmost respect for all of you folks. You're all brothers and sisters in survival, and what we have in common is more important to me that the bits we disagree with.

There is 100% no doubt in my mind that my belief in a higher power helps in a survival situation. I've been weak and close to what felt like death. I had only enough energy to resign myself to a belief that God would get me through it. I literally had no energy for anything else. Now, for me to be healthy and suddenly act as if God doesn't exist would be traitorous. I'm not particularly religious either, but I certainly believe in God. In other words, I feel like my relationship with God is direct and unhindered by church and/or any religious customs.

By the way, atheism seems like a religion to me. Atheists tend to be just as fanatical, or more fanatical, in their belief in no God than, for example, Christians believe in God. Indeed, atheism has a set of rules and customs just like other religions. If you swear there is no heaven and pray there is no hell, then you are conceding to the fact that there is a possibility that heaven or hell does exist. A bit of a paradox I know, but that paradox seems to separate us from non-human animals.

Don't mind me too much. I humbly admit I could be wrong about atheism. My knowledge of atheism comes primarily from what I observe from admitted atheists.

Whatever your beliefs are, I certainly hope you are able to tap into a reserve energy source if you are ever in a situation where you feel like death is upon you.

I am a big fan of the idea that "god helps those who help themselves", regardless of who or what your god might be. That was once the biggest part of most mainstream faiths, although often unstated or understated.

Somehow that help has turned into dependency for many people.

My thought is that perhaps the best help one can get is to be better prepared for life's troubles. Better to go out in the wilderness with appropriate training, experience, and gear rather than relying solely on faith. There are plenty of examples where relying mostly on faith has led to serious messes, while relying on prior preparation has led to survival, or even to a situation where there was not much of an issue at all.

This underlying theme of faith leading to dependency/laziness is largely irrelevant on this forum. Folks here have a mindset of being self-sufficient.

Here is the importance of faith for me: it's a realization that no matter how prepared or smart I am, my maximum best effort falls immeasurably short of God's capabilities.

Out of all people, atheist probably need the most help in a survival situation. It takes more guts to be an atheist because, what happens if you're wrong?

The reverse is certainly true as well. What if the source of the help you are relying on does not actually exist?

That is why I think relying on training, education, experience, and gear is much safer than trusting in something that may or may not even exist. In fact, it is certainly safer than relying solely on such a source even if it does exist.

If your personal belief system includes the idea that some supernatural power will help you along the way as you need it, I am fine with you believing in that. I choose a much surer path. That path, by the way, does not preclude a supernatural being's involvement. It just does not rely first and foremost on divine intervention, given how uneven that has proven to be over the years.

Well, I don't know about others, but it's obvious to me we're having a fundamental misunderstanding in this thread. It's obvious to me atheists are not understanding my mindset on faith. Likewise, I appreciate the fact that I don't understand an atheist's mindset. Well, we sort of understand each other at a high level, but as we go deeper there is a point at which the understanding ceases.

As an example of this fundamental misunderstanding, the more I prepare and the more skills I obtain, I feel my need for God in my life increasing. Let me guess, for an atheist, the opposite is true.

At least we have been civil enough not to yell at each other. Great thread.

Actually, I think Bear Grylls' covered this topic pretty well in his book "Living Wild" and I would basically echo his thoughts on this matter (you can check it out online here - p.249). The wisest thing he does, in my opinion, is to not try and come up with generic practises or methods or even speak to how faith & spirituality is helpful in a generic sense, but rather simply writes about what his faith means to him and how it helps him.

This is a realistic approach. I cannot say what will help someone with a different worldview or belief system as me, but I can relate how my worldview and spirituality helps me.

Back to what does write about, in part, he says:

My Christian faith makes me stronger and it makes me smile.It is the secret power in my life. People ask me whether faith is a crutch. Well, what does a crutch do? It helps us stand. So in some ways I guess, yes it is a crutch, but it is more than that to me. It's like a crutch that runs straight through my core. More like a backbone.

I echo this.

To the question, what specific techniques would I recommend? Coming from a Christian perspective, the most important is having a faith that is real and apart of your day-to-day life, something that is a complete worldview and way of life.

Think of it like physical training; if I want a strong body when I face a survival situation, I'm not going to wait & do push ups when I'm out in the thick of an emergency. In the same way, if I expect to have a strong faith to help me through tough times, I need to exercise it daily. For me, this means (in part at least) knowing my beliefs (not just what they are, but why), regularly being immersed in the life of the church, and serving others. So when the tough times come (and they do come!) I have a solid worldview that allows me to calmly deal with the situation.

So, like a fit person facing an unexpected long hike to get back to safety, the person who has a strong faith before an emergency arises already has the spiritual tools required to handle the situation.

Denis, I think you really hit the nail on the head!

"Maybe we can make this thread more productive: what specific spiritual techniques would you recommend to achieve calmness, clarity, strength, etc., in a survival situation?"

Definitely meditation.
Which means focused control of breathing, as a way of calming nervous responses in the body and so calming the mind. This type of meditation can be practiced by anyone. It is often viewed as a "spiritual" pursuit, but in its most basic form it is not affiliated with any one religion or philosophy.

HOWEVER - in order to use this technique effectively you would need to practice it regularly. For example - take a good tai chi class, and do it at least a couple of times a week. If you can make your meditative skills strong, you have a much better chance of calming yourself in a high-adrenaline situation.

Oddly enough, my own experience is that very few Christians practice serious meditation. I am talking about the kind of "Eastern meditation" that involves clearing the mind and focusing on breathing. The same may apply to many Muslims as well. These large religions do teach people to pray, but there is no instruction about linking the mind with the physical body. In fact, followers of both religions may actually discourage "eastern meditation" because they see it as a threat against their own beliefs. Practically speaking, this may be an explanation as to why someone on this thread observed that there "didn't seem to be any difference between people with different faiths" when they are in emergency situations. If meditation is not trained ... it is not available as a skill when needed.

cheers,
Pete2

"The reverse is certainly true as well. What if the source of the help you are relying on does not actually exist?"

In one basic sense ... what any type of "faith" is doing is working to remove doubt. One of the basic strengths of an organized faith is that it stops peoples' thought patterns from "going all over the map". Fear does tend to mak people think "wild and crazy thoughts" - which are highly disruptive to a positive thought pattern that can produce effective answers. These wild and crazy thoughts are not WRONG. They are the result of our subconscious mind bubbling up its own inputs into our conscious mind. Fear really unlocks the barriers between the conscious and the subconscious. For this same reason - these wild and crazy thoughts can be very hard to control.

Therefore ... you need your own "mental system" that gets your thoughts onto an organized track. It's a bit like putting a steam locomotive onto a set of rails ... now it has a place to go. If you can get your mind onto a system ... you can get to a place in your head where you are thinking constructively again.

I have tried to phrase these last two responses so they are helpful for ALL people on the forum. Anybody can get into a crisis - we all need methods to get out. :-)

Pete2

OK, it makes some sense that this could be quite dependent on the person and the worldview he chooses. Not all religions are about faith. So if you happen to be in one for which faith is important (i.e., Christianity), then that's what you might draw on for strength. You have been attuned to certain things, and those things get activated in a survival situation. (I'm trying to come up with a rational, non-theological explanation.)

But then Christians (some Christians anyway) do believe in praying and communicating with the divine on some very practical matters. So there are specific practices you can do to draw strength and even guidance.

So no one wants to talk about the Third Man?

Oh, but there are such spiritual practices in the Christian tradition, it's just that most people don't know about them or don't do them. Similarly, while we associate "Eastern spirituality" with meditation, being all tranquil and Zen-like, in actuality much of Buddhism is about more "boring" stuff like developing an intellectual understanding of the doctrines, fund-raising for charities and operation costs, etc.

Anyway, I only know one Christian technique, and I would not recommend it in a survival situation because you tend to get lost of the track of time. You're in a different state of consciousness and every thing just flies by fast. That brings up an issue: time. Some medieval warriors had "abbreviated" spiritual practices as well as long versions. The abbreviated ones were for surprise engagements where you didn't have a whole hour to focus and all that good stuff.

So what's the SOP here? If you're lost in the wilderness, open your survival kit, make tea, meditate for five minutes while the tea is steeping?

I suspect like some others on the forum we are nervous to enter in what could become a violation of the forum rules and which has the potential to become divisive in nature, so I will tread as lightly as possible.

I believe I am spiritual being and that religion can be the source of greatness and progress or debasement and despair depending upon how the actions of the followers of a particular faith reflect and live the precepts and teachings of their faith in dealing with others and in their daily lives.

Growing up I had little use for religion and felt more inclined to adhere to an agnostic belief system. Partially because I had strong attraction to science, I felt that it would be more appropriate to keep an open mind on the existence of a supreme being, neither believing nor disbelieving. Then one day, while sitting in a chemistry class I had a revelation. The professor was explaining entropy as the natural order of things is to become disordered or seek their lowest degree of disorder. He used the example that if you tossed a pile of bricks into the air the bricks would fall into a pile and not a wall. That if you were to hit a wall of bricks with a strong enough wind, causing the bricks to be swept up in the wind, it would fall into a pile of disorganized bricks and not into the structure of another wall. At that moment, thinking of the organization of the human body, the thousands of biochemical reactions occurring every moment in the body to maintain organization and function convinced me that there had to be a supreme entity organizing the universe.

Since that moment I have never doubted the existence of a supreme being and have drawn upon that belief many times in life.

Just my 2 cents-

Pete

Last year, in a doctor’s office waiting room, I was talking with a veteran. He said, when the first bullet went over his head, he realized he was not in control (or something to that effect).

I do not believe it is of fear but revelation. That is my two cents. Your millage may vary.

Jeanette Isabelle

Absolutely. Prayer, for example, is big (I'll touch on meditation below). However, I have to go back to my previous point that prayer is a big part of the Christian life, whether you lost in the woods or not. It isn't really a special ceremony or rite, it is simply an ongoing, daily conversation with God (you often hear people refer to Christianity as a relationship, not a religion - this is an example why). So, of course, prayer is going to happen in emergency scenarios, but it isn't really something that would need to be listed on an SOP card either. So, yes, I do draw strength and peace from prayer when life hits its rough spots, but it is also really a part of who I am, not something I pull out only when I'm in trouble.

Going back to my physical training metephor, the cardio-vascular endurance I've developed will help me if I need to take a longer than planned hike, but I don't need to really do anything special for it to come into play in an emergency. Likewise, I expect my spirituality (including prayer life) to help if I'm lost in the wilderness, but I don't really need to do any special rite for it to come into play; it is simply a part of who I am.

Hopefully that makes some sense?


There definately is meditation in Christianity, and it is widely practised, but traditional Christian meditation is different than what many nowadays associate the term with. For the sake of simplicity, I'll quote Wikipedia:

Christian meditation is a form of prayer in which a structured attempt is made to get in touch with and deliberately reflect upon the revelations of God. The word meditation comes from the Latin word meditari, which has a range of meanings including to reflect on, to study and to practice. Christian meditation is the process of deliberately focusing on specific thoughts (such as a bible passage) and reflecting on their meaning in the context of the love of God ... Teachings in both the Eastern and Western Christian churches have emphasized the use of Christian meditation as an element in increasing one's knowledge of Christ.

So, while many associate the term meditation with an emptying of the mind, traditional Christian meditation is the opposite. One way to implement this in a survival scenario would be to meditate upon certain promises or attributes of God. As an aide to this, one could keep certain Bible verses in your kit or on your person that you can reflect on in an emergency (this is a technique Bear Grylls mentioned in his book). I could see this being used during the STOP phase of an emergency, or any other time when there is a bit of down-time.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 does address this. I’m quoting The Message, a translation in simple English:

Now, let me ask you something profound yet troubling. If you became believers because you trusted the proclamation that Christ is alive, risen from the dead, how can you let people say that there is no such thing as a resurrection? If there’s no resurrection, there’s no living Christ. And face it—if there’s no resurrection for Christ, everything we’ve told you is smoke and mirrors, and everything you’ve staked your life on is smoke and mirrors. Not only that, but we would be guilty of telling a string of barefaced lies about God, all these affidavits we passed on to you verifying that God raised up Christ—sheer fabrications, if there’s no resurrection.

If corpses can’t be raised, then Christ wasn’t, because he was indeed dead. And if Christ weren’t raised, then all you’re doing is wandering about in the dark, as lost as ever. It’s even worse for those who died hoping in Christ and resurrection, because they’re already in their graves. If all we get out of Christ is a little inspiration for a few short years, we’re a pretty sorry lot.

If we believe Jesus is alive but is not, we’re wasting our time, money and energy when we could be dealing with our mortality in a more productive manner.

Jeanette Isabelle

I did not mean for this thread to take a turn towards proselytizing, but I would ask that each of you be respectful towards each other's views. I realize that religion and politics are very taboo subjects, but I must state that this is a legitimate question, in which I want personal opinions. I would like help understanding the usefulness of faith, or religious beliefs in a survival situation. If I feel the conversation turns towards proselytizing or insults, I will request it immediately deleted. I am glad it has remained civil, so carry on.

The "Third Man" could be explained using many things. I believe that it is most likely a hallucination. I realize that some may get offended, but that is what it sounds like to me. I will look further into it, but that is my basic explanation.

Please, no "Pascal's Wager". I merely want discussion over whether Religious belief is a helpful tool in a survival situation, not whether God, Vishnu, Allah, or Thor exists or not. Thank you.

There is a contradiction in the two statements you make below:





You dismiss what some people might regard as a real spiritual experience (possibly a rare instance of communion with God) as hallucination, but then you say that's not what you want to talk about. Make up your mind!

Anyway, I think it's more productive to talk about "how useful is it?" rather than "is it real?" as long as there isn't some sort of ulterior motive to push one religious agenda or another. From that perspective, it seems that the Third Man would be immensely useful -- at least the survival accounts I've read have convinced me of it, so much so that I'd love to have the Third Man hang out with me all the time. Even if he is a hallucination.

By the way, I am starting a fight club with my friend Tyler Durden.

I didn't dismiss it. I applied a real, natural explanation, to what may e regarded as a supernatural experience. You see it all over the globe, people or tribes that take hallucinogens to bring them spiritual guidance. I did not mean to offend. However, say I was put into a situation in which I did see a "Third Man".. I would be reluctant to follow the advice of someone who is not there, or trained in S&R.

My position is that faith, specifically a Christian worldview, can help in a survival situation (I am not really in a position to speak about other faiths so I will only speak to my own).

My worldview, in part, says the world is broken and I should expect hardship and pain, but that this life is not all there is; that ultimately this brokenness has been overcome and everything will be reconciled in the end. Therefore, I am free to live without fear or worry. This allows me to focus on dealing only with the things that are under my control and frees me from worrying about those things that are not.

There are certain disciplines, like prayer, and the relational aspects of the faith that would come into play during an emergency, but ultimately it is the convictions I hold (i.e., my worldview) that provides me with peace and strength when hard times come.

Shhhhh! Rule 1 & 2

" would be reluctant to follow the advice of someone who is not there, or trained in S&R."

If you're about to be toast - you'll probably take guidance from a Girl Scout if it will get you out of hot water :-)

I guess my final comment is this ... I've had my own share of very close calls. Some in the mountains, some under the oceans. In those moments when I was pretty close to being in "the wrong place at the wrong time" I remember doing some heavy duty praying. I remember being scared, praying hard, and trying to survive - all at the same time. It's not pleasant. The primal forces of fear and "survival instinct" tend to take over. It's hard to control them. You find yourself breathing very hard, and things are happening in slow motion. Or so it seems.

Does prayer help in that situation? I can't give any simple rational explanation for what it does. But it was important to me - so I did it, and I'm glad I did. We're finite human beings. you can't see all the anwers from this side of life.

good luck,
Pete2

I think the guy is trolling like mad and is deeply passive-aggressive. I can't believe how patient you folks have been. Well done.

If you're looking for a black and white one size fits all answer, there just isn't one. Faith is immensely personal.

Of course it can be helpful. Anything that gives someone hope, and helps them keep going and not give up, is helpful in a survival situation.

Then again, if someone puts their faith solely in a miracle when there is something they can do something to help themselves survive, IMO, that's not helpful.

IMO, your answer comes down to will. If your will is to survive, your faith will be helpful, whether it's faith in a higher power, faith in who you are with, faith in who you count on to rescue you, faith in your equipment, faith in science, or faith in yourself.

I'm not letting you off that easily. You said you're not here to discuss whether God exists, just how much religion helps in survival situations. But you have no trouble discussing issues of faith when it suits you. That's either foolishness or hypocrisy.

I'm not offended. I mentioned the "Third Man" as bait to see what you'd say. You showed who you are.

I do know someone who had a close call, and he experienced something physical which seemed to defy the explanation of physics. He didn't pray for help or anything -- he didn't have time. It just happened, and it saved his life. Now, notice that I'm not asserting that it defied explanation. All he could report was what he felt, saw, observed, etc. So it was a subjective experience, and maybe there was an angle that from his limited vantage point he couldn't see.. However, I knew him to be honest, and I knew him to be a cautious thinker, not prone to exaggeration or fantasy.

Did I mention anything disregarding whether God exists? I believe not. a "Third Man" has nothing to do with religion. You may argue that is does, fine. I simply stated that a scientific explanation of it would be a hallucination. If you still want to believe that I made an ad hominem on faith, feel free.

I have no trouble asking logical questions about a person's faith. If someone says that they believe Poseidon saved them from the Titanic, I would not doubt that they elieve Poseidon exists, I would simply ask why they feel he helped them.

You are viewing everything I say through a bias that I am trying to attack religious beliefs. If I truly wanted to attack your religious beliefs, I would, trust me. I would rather not get kicked out of ETS, nor would I want to be stigmatized here.

So, please stop making unsubstanciated claims, I would appreciate it.

You take a phenomenon that some explorers have given religious meaning to it, and you reduce their experience to a different framework and call it hallucination. How is that different from giving a "rational" explanation to belief in God; e.g., religious beliefs derived from primitive man's fear of natural forces he could not understand? If there is a difference, it is only in scale, not in essence. No one is dumb enough not to see that. The language of your posts contains such indirect denigrations of other people's religious beliefs, and that really isn't OK. It's one thing to discuss honestly how one's beliefs may or may not aid in survival, it's another to cast slings and arrows under a pretense. I am unable to have respect for that.

I don't have a problem with positing that the "Third Man" phenomenon might be hallucination. I just think you need to abide by your own rules, and not bend them when convenient. If you just abide by them, we wouldn't have this problem. I do agree with some other posters that you are trolling, and many posters here have been quite patient. Some people have been so kind as to share a very intimate part of their lives with the forum just to answer your question, so you must exercise greater sensitivity out of respect for them. Making even an implied attack is no appreciated.

As for my religious beliefs, you don't even know what they are -- nor are they relevant to this thread. As far as I can tell, I'm probably the only one in this thread without religious beliefs. How can you attack nothing?

Let's return to a more productive discussion. But I don't know whether anyone has anything more to add, because Denis seems to have written the definitive post on faith might work in a survival situation.

Everytime I read a comment of the original poster, I have less understanding of the goal here. Put another way, it's becoming clear the original question is rhetorical. He cannot be both (1) truly atheist and (2) looking for an answer to his question. One of those must be false.

A person who is 100% atheist would have little use for an answer to the original question. Likewise, I truly believe in God. So, I have little use for a deep discussion on how atheism will help me in a survival situation. All I have use for is knowing the atheist approach for survival for the sake of getting to know a friend, and that conversation is rather short. I don't need a long discussion of points and counterpoints because, again, I believe in God. So, at the end of the day, the atheist approach is primarily just a piece of trivia in my head. I expect a true atheist to view a faith-based approach in the same manner.

I have to say that I worry about this thread sometimes.

With great respect, Byng, I love ya, but I have to defend sybert and his Third Man comment. I'd do this via PM but I think you're mature enough to help remind everyone to thread softly.

Here's what sybert said:



IMO, this isn't being disrespectful or dimissive. He answered your question honestly and simply, and didn't start an argument by elaborating on the whys of his answer. It's not fair to bait someone and then accuse them of being disrespectful just because they happen to hold a different view than yours.

You asked - twice. If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question. As the OP, and holding what appears to be a minority view, it could have been be viewed as disrespectful for him to ignore your question completely. Yea, he could have been more sensative/diplomatic and added a "but...." but the difficulty of diplomacy when we discuss religion is one of reassns we generally don't discuss such matters here at ETS.

IMO, this thread needs to remain focused on sharing anecdotal evidence of times that faith did or could save our lives. Let's not bait each other. If we let ourselves devolve into debating the validity of our faith, no Third Man is going to save us from the mods.

We've had a little feather ruffelage, but it's really hard not to let some of our passion bubble to the surface when we discuss such intimate personal things. Kudos to everyone!

We are in danger of going off the rails so, how about some specific examples of how faith can help in a survival situation?


LDS - one year of preps would be a huge help in a natural or financial disaster.

Christianity - "God helps he who helps himself" and "Love thy neighbour", "Fight for life" seem like three tenants of faith that could be emmensely helpful in a survival situation.

Native North Americans - "Mother Earth will provide if we take care of her" seems like another way of saying that we should be sustainably resourceful. How could that not help in a survival situation?

Athiesm - could also be described as faith in the science of 98.6

That's just four ideas. I'm sure there are more.

I have always remembered a comment by an Arizona sheriff from long ago - "most of the survivors he had encountered possessed strong egos." This came home to me on a particularly dicey night out when I thought my companions might have triggered a search. I was determined to look good and to be capable of offering any arriving search party a working cook stove and a steaming cup of coffee. It was important to appear to be capable and in control of the situation (which is probably one of my motivations for prepping today).

I think it comes down to personality being an important factor in a survival situation, and religious orientation, or lack thereof, may be a component of a survivor's personality.

I am not a Mormon, nor am I likely to become one, but I have always thought their practice of stocking a year's worth of food to be an excellent notion, especially in the pioneer conditions in which that idea evolved.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Campfire Forum, to allow a little more leeway in our discussions?

Pete

I didn't say he was disrespectful or dismissive. I said his behavior was hypocritical. Let me use an analogy. In effect, sybert made the two statements:

1. Hey, guys, we're here to discuss how to cook, not the merits of national cuisines.

2. I don't have to follow my own rule, and I say French food sucks.

Also, what question did I ask twice? "Hey, guys, do you think the 'Third Man' is a hallucination?" No, I did not ask that specific question, but I left it open-ended. Again, to use an analogy, I asked: "What about boeuf bourguignon?" When one could answer possibly with something like "adding bacon in the beginning enhances the flavor," he answered, "Boeuf bourguignon is great!"

The content of the question is immaterial to my objection. What I object to is hypocrisy.

I agree with BPJ on this point



In my faith, we fast for one month ( dawn to dusk) from any food or drink , and the pilgrimage ( at least originally ) takes one back to the simplest form of living ( two sheets for clothing and living in tents). Nowdays companies invented more and more portable comfort items .. .but anyways....

In this regard, many faiths do direct their followers to the wiser side of living, and somewhat trains them for badder times. Me think.

I am hesitant to reveal my religious affiliation, not because I am ashamed, but the feel it is not the purpose of this forum or this thread. So I will try and explain from my perception how religion (in general), spiritual belief and prayer can be beneficial in a survival situation, without specific references to any particular religion.

To me, God is an unknowable essence. We are finite beings trying to understand the infinite, the painting trying to know the painter. It is not possible and yet I do believe it is our spiritual goal to try and know and love this unknowable essence. I believe we as individuals and as societies, adopt various religious teachings to help us understand this relationship and to foster social interaction. When positively interpreted, these religious teachings have lead to advancements in both personal and societal growth. The very survival of a particular people or culture very often is dependent upon these teachings.

I believe God has given us free will, but at the same time a blueprint for life. If we adhere to the blueprint, our lives will conform to what is best for us. If we choose another blueprint, life may not be so easy to navigate. But it is our freewill to follow the blueprint or not. Those of us, who are parents, may see this relationship in our interactions with our children. We want them to be self-reliant, productive members of society. Based upon our life experiences we can provide them guidance that will allow them to learn and progress. They have the free will to accept the guidance or reject it and experience the results of their actions.

I believe the blueprint from God teaches us to be prepared, self-reliant individuals, but at the same time compassionate and giving. I believe that God wants us to live full productive lives, giving us the will to push on despite adversity and the despair that can come from survival situations. As to prayer, I consider myself lucky that my religious tradition has many revealed prayers. I view these prayers as God’s way of answering my requests and giving me a blueprint as to what is really important in life, even before I am placed in a situation where I need divine assistance. I try and remember to pray every day for wisdom and the ability to do the right thing at the right time, a form of preplanning. When something does happen and I decide to pray for assistance, part of that prayer is to not only ask for help and guidance, but acceptance as well.

Pete

Thank you, BPJ, I appreciate you defending me. I will disregard what Bingley said in order to focus this thread on what the original question was. I have received many thought provoking answers, and I consider myself informed now. This thread may be deleted if the moderators feel the need to do so.

Also, I am not trolling, however, as answers veered further away from my intended question (Poorly stated, I admit) I grew more impatient. The belief that I was trolling or attacking an individual's faith also made me grow more upset. I'm sorry if my attitude changed, I hadn't meant it to.

I would argue my stance of this issue, but I feel it would be more hurtful than productive. And for those in question, I am a strong atheist. I (as it was brought to my attention) am a 6 on the Dawkins scale.

Now, getting the conversation back on track, I believe that Native American's had the greatest understanding (in America) of spirituality. Do I believe that helped them? Yes. I may not believe in it, but it doesn't mean I don't believe it can be a positive, driving force. I hope this in concise enough, when I am not bombarded with homework, I will answer questions I have not gotten around to.

"Native American" covers a lot of ground, both literally and metaphorically, spanning numerous cultures occupying a wide array of environments and at varying degrees of cultural complexity. Do you refer to the complex and well-developed cultures of middle America, like the Aztecs, who had a well known thing for human sacrifice? - Quite necessary for the propagation and well being of the universe, according to what we understand of their cosmology.

I am sure you can cherry pick the writings of any group and enter them in a "most spiritual" contest. Christians have said a lot of very spiritual things, and then there is the Inquisition....

As a non-believer (I don't like to use the word "atheist" because people confuse lack of belief in god with belief that there is no god), I consider religious faith a bad thing because it is not based on reality. Whatever good comes from religion can, and should, be got without it.

Unfortunately, the good that religions of all types have done over many millennia tends to be counterbalanced by the evil it has also done in that same time frame.

Of course some of that evil has not been so much by the religion itself as people who have hijacked religion for their own purposes.

I am not sure which way the balance sheet goes these days.

I think we've strayed far enough. It's been relatively civil and I thank you all for that, but to go farther invites disaster.
**LOCKED**

-Blast