Car as Shelter

We're about to experience overnight low temps in the teens and daily highs in the 20s. My car is 8 years old and though it has relatively low miles (60k), I'm increasingly mindful of increasing odds of breakdown. If the heater were not functioning, even an hour or two inside the Beltway waiting for a tow truck could become uncomfortable in such cold.

So I put more cold weather gear in the car (an SUV). The car inventory now includes:

fleece hats/neck gaiters/fleece sleeping bag liner (2)
down booties + down mittens
Smartwool socks
chemical warmers (I buy boxes of them from Costco)
Gore-tex hiking boots + Gore-tex gaiters + rain pants


For longer periods and periodic outdoor activities, I have in there:

long underwear
JetBoil
Cup 'o Soup packets, tea bags, cocoa, snacks (+ water, of course)

And emergency gear, incuding fire-making (lighters, matches, firesteel, beeswax candles, fatwood).

I have a 48-gallon Rubbermaid Action-Packer for storing this stuff in the car so the list goes on....

Are you ready to spend a few hours, or more, in the car on a bitter cold day?

We've had other threads on the subject of car survival but it is a discussion worth repeating and usually instructive.

The answer to your question 'Are you ready to spend a few hours, or more, in the car on a bitter cold day?' is 'yes'.
I put a double duvet in the boot last week. Costs less than £20 and all the things you've listed together won't make as big a difference.
qjs

If you have to walk out, a pair of used Sorel boots (packs) are great

What's the duvet made of? Down-filled?


.

Besides all the great gear you always carry, do your Element a favor and perform maintenance before it's due. My "more than 8 year old" Ford started overheating and when checked out the radiator was 90% blocked -- the cost was a new radiator core.

Most all of the things that can go wrong have been replaced with new from the rear axle to the A/C. The serial number is old but the body is solid and everything that makes it move has been replaced. I'm so far ahead on $$ with this truck I try to replace stuff before it breaks. In most cases the cost of a tow or down-time car rental would exceed the cost of early replacement.

To answer your question though, yes, when I leave SOCAL or go anywhere of increased elevation like the mountain passes in southern Oregon (way outside SOCAL), I have a winter kit duffel bag that goes along for the ride which contains:
Winter parka
Smartwool long u/w
Wool & Fleece sweaters
Nylon outer pants
Couple pair of Smartwool socks and sock liners
Boots.
A couple different beanies, wool & fleece
Wool & fleece blankets
MSR MicroRocket
Canned food & water are carried separately.

That's a partial list and I usually dress for the climate I'm in so the list of what's in the duffel closely matches what I'll be wearing as I drive.

I'll be fine, mostly because I'm fairly sure the truck will not break down. There's always the chance of a random accident though and the saying S**t happens still applies.

I tend to also think along the lines of gearing up to get help (AAA service, cell phone, cell phone power cord, watching cell phone battery levels, PLB, ...) and to be noticeable (large orange trash bags can be hung out a window and/or cut lengthwise and run over the roof from door to door for better aerial views.

My father used to buy brightly colored cars for visibility issues.

BTW, I carry a sleeping bag rather than lots of clothing, though I try to dress for the weather - under the assumption I'll need to spend some time outdoors - rather than just running from car to door.

I'm a long time DC area resident (since ummmh, 1966), and have been more or less trapped by DC winter weather four times. Once for 12 or so hours, once overnight (I walked into a motel and asked for a room---and got it!)

The key thing I see missing is a down (or some modern fiber filled) sleeping bag. I see you have the liners, but don't know how warm they will keep you on a really bad night. You may need to stay in your car a long time. Your preps seem fine for a few hours, but you need to sleep also. And I worry that you might be too cold with what you have. A warm sleeping bag and protection from wind/cold/rain/snow in the car can make things much more comfortable. (note: I do not trust "warmers" to work when you need them.)

In all instances, it was NOT the ability of my car or me to deal with the snow and ice on the road. It was the total stoppage of all traffic on the road (I495 ((aka the Beltway)), Rt. 7 in Virginia, I270 in Maryland and 16th Street in DC) that stopped me.

So, my philosophy is be prepared to sleep in your car, totally passive (no external heat), and be comfortable and safe ---doors locked, and stay warm in good quality sleeping bag.

Winter parka and sleeping bag. (maybe 2 sleeping bags)
Insulated pad or layer to keep from losing heat thru compressed sleeping bag material while lying down.

I chose to let myself get snowed in at 11,000' while on a Sept 4WD trip. Basically slept out the storm in my Jeep.

When well equipped there's nothing to fear but fear itself.
(But that sure expanded my personal boundaries!)

Getting the interior de-iced so I could drive out required direct sunshine and time. No way was interior heat going to thaw everything that needed to be thawed.

I've got a complete set of dry clothes, additional wool socks, spare boots, spare outerwear (including hat and gloves), and an AMK bivvy. I have a sleeping bag I can throw in the trunk, but I've got so much stuff in there right now the sleeping bag would take up too much room.

What...again?

In short, more or less. There's only so much space I can afford. Besides the few things already mentioned I got one hell of a trauma kit, and plastic drum liners, tape and para cord just in case I have to cover a broken window first. Don't assume you won't be stranded after an accident where you may have to patch a window or two before trying to keep the heat in your vehicle. While offroading, I managed to put a stray limb thru a side window TWICE if you can believe it.( I know, I'm an idiot)
Fortunately I didn't have to spend those nights in my truck, because it would have really sucked with the wind howling in through a window with no way to patch it up.

and a snow shovel, jumper cables, flashy light, etc.

The most important single item would be a sleeping bag, by far. Then some food and an FAK, plus other items to suit the situation.

Even here is the benign climate of SoCal (it is going to hit 81 degrees today), our car always has a sleeping bag in the trunk, plus water, at a very minimum.

At 60,000, your wheels are just getting broken in.....

The scenario that often comes to mind is the debacle of January 2011, when the GW Parkway was paralyzed for several hours during a relatively modest snowstorm. I believe that event became known as "Carmageddon."

Yes, it matters little how snow-worthy your vehicle is when you are caught in gridlock.

I've been considering throwing a sleeping bag in the car. This thread is proving persuasive.

Agreed, however some things time out regardless of mileage, chemical reactions and all that. Vehicles today can go a long ways, but they still need maintenance and a low mileage vehicle should have some things checked closely or simply replaced based on time rather than miles.

Dagny's Element is probably in great shape, but the tire sidewalls may be cracking due to age regardless of tread thickness. Her radiator may have build-up not noticeable until stuck in slow traffic in August -- then the temp starts to climb. That's what happened to me with the temp gauge flirting with the red mark up by the "H". Lots of little things that are normally of no concern until they put you on the side of the road waiting for AAA.

Yep, I had a 10-year old Miata with 44,000 miles on it and one night at work I went to drive home and a gasket in the clutch slave cylinder had failed so no-go on the clutch.

Time alone is tough on a vehicle.

FWIW, the (original) battery on my 2004 Jeep Liberty died last week. (No, I didn't pull a baby brain move. It was about 10 years old so probably overdue to be changed.)

It wasn't a survival situation by any stretch of the imagination. I was in a retail parking lot so had easy access to shelter, but I decided to wait it out, as sort of an experiment. I was shopping for maybe 10 mins before I tried to head home, so the Jeep had time to cool down before I got back in it. After that I wasn't stuck for more than maybe 45 mins before my hubby came and rescued me, but it was a very windy sub-zero day and it got cold in there fast. I was really glad that I dressed for the weather (insulated boots, Merino wool socks, LS thermal top, fleece jacket, thinsulate hat And gloves), and also for the extra down jacket and mitts I keep in there. (To be fair, I do have my own personal internal heater right now, so wasn't wearing thermal long johns as I would be any other winter.)

Expanding on Russ's post above, my Jeep now has a brand new sub-zero battery as well as a brand new alternator.

In addition to a standard GHB and spare clothes (including rain gear and a pair of boots) I always carry two wool blankets, space blanket tarp, small ax, shovel, saw, small pot with alcohol stove . . .

In the winter I'll throw in a sleeping bag, parka, heavy hat, etc just for season.

If I'm going to the mountains or longer distance a few other things get added like the snow shovel and snow shoes. Just depends on the environment I'm going to be in that day. Just around town I've still got the previous gear all the time.

I'm sure this is gonna raise the hackles for quite a few here but I see a lot of "I'm helpless come save me" type thinking going on here.

TeacherRO is the only one so far who touched on the right direction... snow shovel, jumper cables, flashy light, etc

Doesn't anyone prep for self-rescue anymore?

How about tire chains, a satellite phone, a tow rope, tools, shovel, tree saw, shoe spikes. Think self-rescue - Don't just sit on the side of the road and pray the government will save you before your little candle burns out and you freeze to death.

Just to clarify: hubby rescuing me meant him bringing a new battery and alternator and changing them himself. (Thankfully it didn't turn out to be computer problem.) One of my best preps is the benefit of having an amature mechanic and retail parts store manager as a partner. . Saved us a bunch of $$$ on a tow and mechanic. (I can change a tire, jump a battery, change a fuse, wiper, etc. on my own, BTW.)

To Nugget's point, I don't get the sense that anyone here is planning to rely solely on the powers that be to rescue us. It is wise to carry the means for self rescue - shovel, chains, fuses, cables, tools, etc... just like it's wise to check the weather forecast and plan your trip accordingly. it's also wise to prep to be stuck for a while, even, perhaps, maybe, while those steps are being taken.

Had I been driving, 9 months pregnant, on a blustry winter day, to visit my friend In the boonies... my report, including the supplies I regularly keep in my Jeep, would be entirely different - and it would have been caused a not very wise move to begin with.

Speaking of tools. Quite a leap in your thinking, NH, and inappropriate snark.

There is no "I'm helpless come save me type thinking" in this thread. There is plenty of "I'd like to prepare for being stranded with the car for some period of time" thinking in this thread.

My car is stocked with jumper cables, shovel, Gransfors Bruks Scandinavian Forest Axe, etcetera, and I'm among the few in the mid-Atlantic who carry tire chains during the winter. I even carry duct tape.

Perhaps if you would think more you could imagine a scenario that cannot be remedied with jumper cables, tire chains, shovel, tree saw, shoe spikes, tow rope, a sat phone or even a well-equipped tool box.

Unless you are Mr. Goodwrench and have an automotive diagnostic computer and auto parts store in the trunk of your car, situations may arise in which you may not be able to "self-rescue." In the event of being stuck in a major traffic jam on a major highway during a winter storm, staying with the vehicle may be the wisest and only feasible course of action -- whether or not you have a super-duper tow rope and wench on your high-clearence 4x4.

So instead of presuming that every situation lends itself to "self-rescue," are you capable of constructively adding to a discussion about staying safely and comfortably with the vehicle for several hours, or longer?

Good point, Dagny, about having to wait it out sometimes. When a whiteout rolls through these parts, for example, I don't care who you are, what you drive or what self rescue supplies you carry, you,re going to have to wait it out or risk a serious accident.

In my corner of the world, it is 7:25 am now this minute.
I should be on my way to work ( in fact I should be AT work already). However, I got out and was faced with dense fog. OK. Started the car and drove for one block, realized how bad it was, took a right turn, then another right turn, and ... reached the house ....

So, I am now sitting at the computer till the fog clears.

No work is important enough for me to have an accident !!

And if the boss is at work - which I doubt - and needs me, he knows my phone number.

To some extent, most of us probably do. But replacing a battery, or replacing an alternator, isn't exactly the type of thing most people pack for. Sure, jumper cables, but sometimes you really do need to tow it somewhere, either for parts, or a mechanic. Notice that Dangy lives in D.C., she's not off-roading in the boonies somewhere.

Now, if she had a long rural commute, or was out in the Mojave, you'd have a point. She'd also probably be traveling with another friend in another vehicle (at least, if she was off-roading). How often do you drive with a wingman in your daily commute?

Nugget Hoarder wrote:
>I see a lot of "I'm helpless come save me" type thinking going on here.
TeacherRO is the only one so far who touched on the right direction... snow shovel, jumper cables, flashy light, etc
Doesn't anyone prep for self-rescue anymore?

The opposite is true. People are providing lists of stuff to use outside the car, or if stuck in it all night. But the question was.
'Are you ready to spend a few hours, or more, in the car on a bitter cold day?'
Keeping warm is all you need. Only insulation is going to be of use. A cheap winter duvet (synthetic since you asked Dagny )will make all the difference. You have no wind, or rain, in a car and plenty of 'groud' insulation in the seats. I wouldn't be on ETS if I thought the rescue organisations could reach everyone in 10 minutes. But I'm prepared to NOT break the golden rule of a stranded vehicle. 'Don't leave the vehicle unless you KNOW you won't be found'.
qjs

I'm at least as well prepared for self-rescue as I am for waiting it out. I have a snow shovel, a dirt shovel, jumper cables, tow strap, jumpstarter (with compressor), Rescue Tape, a variety of tools, Gorilla Tape, an amateur radio HT, and so on. My understanding, though, was that this thread was about being prepared for sheltering in place.

Maybe a bit of elaboration will help folks better understand the scenario that I have experienced, and that IMO you are considering.

You have a 4 lane limited access parkway/highway. It is filled with bumper to bumber traffic. Little or no shoulder to pull off the road. Exits are a good distance apart. Cold winter day. It snows, and the road ices up. Traffic stops and doesn't move for hours, maybe many hours or overnight.

Sanding/gritting vehicles can't do anything because the road is filled with stopped vehicles. They can't get where they need to be because they need to use the same road. The only way to clear things is to try to free up the exits, and get the cars off the highway via the newly opened exits. This can be made much harder if: 1) people abandon the vehicle, leaving it blocking the cars behind it or 2) running out of gas because they stayed with the engine running to stay warm, again blocking the cars behind them. These cars need to be removed by tow trucks.

So, if you are in the center of the mass of cars, you are there for the duration, without a way to know how long. If you lock and abandon your vehicle, no telling how long it will take to get it back and in what shape. Also, your actions slowed down the rescue efforts of other folks.

So, you thought you were on your normal commute home from your office or a business meeting, and now you face a cold night in the car. What should you have with you?

Excellent summation, BWS. No one anticipated the nightmare that day became for thousands of people stranded up to twelve hours on major roads -- inside the Beltway.

I was blessed to be cozy at home during what was an otherwise unmemorable snow. Friends were calling from Virginia and Maryland where they were stuck on highways they could not escape and watching their fuel gauge go lower and lower.

The George Washington Parkway on the Virginia side of the Potomac River was the worst. There's a recap at this link:

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Traffic-and-Transit-Update-12-Hour-Commute-114710519.html


Spurred by this thread, last night I ordered a new 20-degree sleeping bag that will go directly into the car and will stay there until summer. (I have other sleeping bags but they are in storage with my teardrop trailer 80 miles from DC.) Along with the two fleece sleeping bag liners and the winter clothing gear and chemical warmers in the car, I and one or two other passengers would be in pretty good shape for the worst we are likely to face around here.

Having escaped DC to avoid the Inaugural mess, today I have to drive back -- about 70 miles. Daytime temps are in the 20s and I will hope that it is an uneventful drive with no cause to brood over having neglected to keep a sleeping bag in the car.

Be safe everyone. Looks like two-thirds of the U.S. is in the deep freeze. Apparently it can be attributed to the "polar vortex:"

http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/stats-arctic-air-brings-low-te/4651671

Good idea going with a 20°F bag. I have a summer weight bag in my truck with the idea of layering with blankets. But I've been rethinking past East Coast and PNW winters, and then visualizing the mountain passes of NOCAL and Southern Oregon. A down bag may be more appropriate -- not cheap but they do look comfy. For indoor/in-car use, down should not be a problem.

One should be ready to sit it out if necessary. Gethomeitus can be fatal. In the winter I never leave town without a very warm Wiggy's sleeping bag.

I very much doubt it for £20.
Almost certainly polyester or other false material.
For use indoors on a bed I would consider down to be preferable, but for emergency use in a car polyester is probably better.
A down filled duvet is not only expensive but vulnerable to damp or becoming torn.
Polyester duvets are sold everywhere at low prices and are a good prep for a car, but too to bulky to carry on foot.

Thickness of the insulating layer determines its ability to ward off cold, in general. The difference between down and synthetics is that for a given insulating value, the synthetic fill will be appreciably heavier.

This matters in a bag used for backpacking, but not for something you will keep in the car. Since I like to backpack and get outdoors a lot, a good (albeit expensive! down bag is worth the bucks. I might as well store it in the car. If I didn't backpack, I would save big and get a synthetic.

"Apparently it can be attributed to the "polar vortex"
How odd. I assumed it was Global Warming!

Just a thought on keeping your best camping gear in the car-

If you come upon an accident and a victim going into shock, you might use your supplies to help. If you do, getting your expensive down bag back might be problematic.

I'd be willing to donate pretty much any of my bags or blankets at an accident scene.

Excellent point, Unimogbert. Among my considerations in stocking my vehicle (backpack, bike bags, etc.) with safety and survival gear has been that this is not just for my benefit. It is also for the benefit of passengers and strangers who we may encounter.

For instance, I believe it is more likely that my fire extinguisher and tools such as seat belt cutter are more likely to be used at an accident scene in which I'm a bystander and not to save myself.

I'd like to be able to help others in a crisis.

To your point on the sleeping bag, my primary concern with expensive gear in the car is the potential for it to be stolen. That's why most of what I have in the car is older camping gear, older clothes and boots, etc.

I've been such a gearhead over the past decade that I have plenty of "older" gear which is very nice. But as soon as it arrives, I am putting the new 20-degree LL Bean sleeping bag I've purchased in the car because it will come packed in plastic and will be as compressed as it can be. I also got it on sale.

LL Bean is currently having a 15% off sale on everything -- the sale ends today. Shipping is free.

The way I see it is that a vehicle of most any sort is pretty good rain and wind protection. Not much in the way of insulation though.

I have some extra clothes including a warm coat, hat, and gloves, and a wool blanket. I also have some chemical hand warmers. I figure with what I am wearing that is adequate.

I have been considering some kind of heating means but none of them seem real safe to me.

I got a few cans of sterno and a large multi-wick candle for that. It's about as safe as I can find. The sterno even comes with it's own little pot stand.

A down bag will lose over 60% of its' insulating property in 6 months if kept compressed.
qjs

Where are you getting this info from?

I would imagine a good shaking would return the loft.

I've heard the same advice about keeping your sleeping bags compressed. I wonder if that's more for synthetic bags? The shake it out methods seems like it should work for a down bag.

On the expense note, it might be worth a trip to your local thrift store to have a peek for a down bag. I haven't had any luck with one yet but I haven't lost hope, and have found some great wool and down garments in the process.

sleeping bags, candles, matches, holder, food, chemical heaters...hat, gloves.

I don't know about the "60% in 6 months" statistic, but it is pretty universally said not to store down products compressed and that doing so would negatively impact their effectiveness.

Here are some of the storage recommendations I found for sleeping bags:

MEC: Do not store a down sleeping bag or jacket in a stuff sack. The fibres or down plumules will compress.
REI: Do not store your bag compressed in its stuff sack as this will eventually damage the fill.
Seirra Designs: Never store your sleeping bag in a small stuff stack since, over time, this will reduce your sleeping bag's loft.

I store my bags in large cotton storage bags (something often supplied with down bags).

I don't know 100% about synthetic, but I've done the same with my nice synthetic over-bag too. Interestingly, it appears both the REI and Sierra Designs storage recommendations are intended to apply both to down & synthetic (at least they don't attempt to differentiate between the two).

My sleeping bag is not down and since it will be stored in the car I can't make loft the priority. I'll store it the car in the bag it comes in.

Surely any degradation of its insulating value is unlikely to be the dividing line between comfort and misery or life and death.

I'll chance that hunch.

I've heard that too, thanks for reminding me ... that's why I went with the summer weight bag, there's essentially no loft to worry about compressing. Layering with blankets adds insulation and airspace between layers. The down bag I'm considering still looks comfy, but probably not for compressed storage in the truck.

Wiggy's bags can be purchased vacuum packed and stored that way for years without loss of loft; just give them a shake and over 90% loft is restored within seconds. I'd imagine most synthetic bags can be stored in a compression sack for years so long as they're kept dry. I'm not a fan of down due to the fact that it's worthless when wet, but if you have a down bag and have the room to keep in packed loosely it should stay dry in a car.

Stephen wrote:
would imagine a good shaking would return the loft. Sadly not true; see below.

It was an article in the UK magazine Trail who had test carried out at the university of Sheffield. Can't find the article on line but did find this in the mag: So you would be stuffed if you unpack a bag and expect it to keep you warm the same day:

Dagny wrote
> "Surely any degradation of its insulating value is unlikely
> to be the dividing line between comfort and misery or life and
> death"
True in your case as you are using synthetic. Having the insulation of a down bag halved could be very serious.
This is one of those tragic cases where us gearheads can't justify spending more money; a cheap duvet will be better than the best down bag. Like when my wife collected the free sporks from the supemarket salad counter and pointed out I could throw them away or carry enough for a new one at every meal. So was a BETTER option than a titanium spork. The [censored]!!
qjs

"The squashing only effects the down in the short term. If left unsquashed down will spring back. However, it may take a while to spring back if it has been squashed for a long time. We did a test ages ago and squashed bags down for 6 months, then opened them for a day and they had not fully recovered and their TOG (temp rating) was way down. After waiting for a few days they settled back to normal. So squashing down bags for a couple of days is fine, but if you squash them for months at a time, then they will take a lot longer to recover. We have not got a time for how long they take to recover, as that will depend on the quality of down I suspect. So you'll be fine a weekend. But when storing a bag at home do not squash it. GT

Good to know, but I am going to strike a balance between being prepared, being practical and common sense I suppose.

My sleeping bag may not work as well because it was compressed for a long time, but it sure beats nothing at all. I am not about to leave it spread out everwhere in my vehicle because of a bit of loft. There are other things I need space for in my truck.

Compressed, it fits nice and neat under the back seat. Not compressed it takes up half the space in the back seat.(for real) So I have the basics covered and thats about all I can hope for.

Stephen, I'm going to try and sway you. You don't have to leave it totally uncompressed, you just don't throw it into a stuff sack. So, leaving it in a duffle bag, or something similar, is good enough to keep the loft. Plus it'll allow it to be relatively well contained and keep it clean.

Believe me, we ALL have things we need in our vehicle. Passengers, car seats, FAK's, flashlights, maps, lunch bag, etc.

My new LL Bean 20-degree bag arrived this evening. The bag has a nice carry handle.

Fills a big gap in my winter car preps. Thanks for the discussion, everyone.


.

Based on my own experience, I have a very hard time believing 60% in 6 months, for either down or synthetic. These days I use only sythetic bags. I have several that have been stored for years, in stuff bags, and they still perform adequately. I have a several year old winter weight synthetic bag, which has been stored stuffed. I still use it for snow camping, and it still seems to work well enough. I'm not saying they don't loose any loft from compression, but my in my experience the loss is nowhere close to 60%, and takes way longer than 6 months.

Also, there is a wide variety of synthetic insulation, and one would suspect that some of the newer materials would handle compression better than some of the earlier versions.


Yes, it is very unlikely to be the difference between life and death. In most conditions, assuming you have reasonably adequate clothing, you should be able to survive a night inside a car (dry and protected from the wind) even without a sleeping bag. I'm not saying you will be comfortable or happy, or sleep much, but you will survive the night.

[quote=AKSARBased on my own experience, I have a very hard time believing 60% in 6 months, for either down or synthetic.
********
Yes, it is very unlikely to be the difference between life and death. In most conditions, assuming you have reasonably adequate clothing, you should be able to survive a night inside a car (dry and protected from the wind) even without a sleeping bag. I'm not saying you will be comfortable or happy, or sleep much, but you will survive the night. [/quote]

AKSAR,

The quote you responded to specified DOWN. One of the advantages of a synthetic bag is that they tend to loose less - some of them almost none at all (see Wiggy's bags) partly because they can't be compressed so much. Believe it or not, that is data from testing. Not all the testing has shown the same amount of loss, but all I have seen indicate more than 50%. That COULD be enough to make it life threatning.

A typical set of thickness vs temp is given below.

Effective Temp Army Western Mountaineering
+40F 1.5" 1.5" (3" total)
+20F 2.0" 2.5"(5" total)
0F 2.5" 3.5" (7" total)
-20F 3.0" 4.25" (8.5" total)
-40F 3.5" 5" (10" total)
-50F 4.0"

If you were to have a bag that was designed for -20 weather (using the Western Mountaineering number) and reduced it by 60% you would only have 1.7 inches of insulation. From similar charts that would be enough to keep you warm while doing light work - not possible in a bag inside a car. That could be critical. It would be especially bad if the weather were colder than you anticipated.

Although it is unlikely to be the difference, in most conditions, the idea of equipping to survive is not for the likely circumstance under most conditions. All about the unlikely and the worst conditions.

Even though I love a good down bag, most of the time I use a synthetic one. Particularly where weight and pack size are less important.

Respectfully,

Jerry

p.s. I apologise for the table, I haven't found how to get it to post properly. jf

Jerry,
I think our difference of opinion results from two points. First is the question of what clothing one is wearing. I said "reasonably adequate clothing". By that I meant adequate for the outside conditions. If you are wearing or have with you clothing suitible to be outside of the car in the current weather (whatever it might be), then inside the car you should be able to survive. Cars don't insulate well, and cool down quickly. But assuming no damage, most cars give excellent protection from wind and wet. Seat cushions give reasonable insulation to sit on.

The other point is that there is a big difference between surviving and being comfortable. Spending a night in a cold car without a sleeping bag will not be fun. You won't sleep much, if at all. You will not be a happy camper in the morning, but you will be alive. I have, on several occaisions, spent a night out without a bag, in improvised shelters, but wearing good clothing. Protection from the wind and wet is key. My experience is that I might fall asleep for a few moments, but then wake up shivering. I shiver for awhile, then maybe fall asleep again for a minutes. Repeat until morning. Not a pleasant night, but definately survivable.

If you are not wearing adequate clothing, then the situation changes, of course. In cold weather I see lots of people hop into cars very lightly dressed. They seem to assume that since they are going from a warm house to a warm car to a warm shopping mall there is no need to dress for the cold. If for any reason they got stuck on the road they would be in serious trouble.

"Dress for Success" is my motto.

i guess being in my situ in fla evac from a hurricane and being stuck in traffic so having at least h20 is essential bug repel flashlight extra food etc...

It seems that our friends across the pond are also experiencing "stuck in the car overnight" due to the recent snow.

Good article and photos.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...my-weekend.html

The comments made could have been made during our "Carmegadon" folks, especially the problems of abandoned cars.

I like the way the people stuck on the road for hours made the best of the situation by having snowball fights and making snowmen...might as well have fun instead of being miserable!

A few further thoughts on the "Car as Shelter" theme. Most of this will be obvious to folks on this forum, but it is probably worth stating anyway. Looking at someone else's suggested list of what to carry in your vehicle is a starting point, but everyone needs to evaluate their own situation, and decide what is appropriate for them. Some things to consider:

What sort of kit are we planning?
Is this a general kit that will stay in your vehicle all the time? Or are you planning a kit for a particular trip such as a vacation? Or is it a getaway kit for a particular scenario like Florida in hurricane season?

What sort of environment will we be in?
Obviously Alaska or Canada in winter involves some different considerations than Tucson in the summer. What is the likely worst case? What is the worst case you can possibly immagine? Is it an area I'm familiar with, or someplace where I'm not sure what to expect?

What sort of roads are we likely to be on?
Interstate highways? Dirt roads in the mountains or desert? Populated areas with lots of potential help around? Or a long way between help with little traffic?

What are the most likely problems?
Are you concerned about a "carmegeddon" scenario on the DC Beltway? Or a breakdown out in the desert? Both could be a bad situation, but require different preps.

Aside from what's in the kit, how will I be dressed and what else will I be carrying?
If you are heading out on a hike you are probably dressed for the outdoors. If commuting between home and office, you may want to consider some weather appropriate outdoor clothing in your kit.

What sort of vehicle are you driving? How much extra space do you have?
If you are driving a Ford Expedition you have room to take most anything you want. If you drive a Smart car, you need to plan very carefully.

What is your level of skill and confidence? Your level of health and fitness?
No point in carrying stuff you don't know how to use, or are physically unable to use.

What is your tolerance for discomfort? Your tolerance for risk?
Are you comfortable with minimal preparations for only the most likely problems? Or do you feel the need to be ready for even the most highly unlikely scenarios?

We have been over thinking this...Fortunately I am a fan of "Prairie Home Companion" and they discussed a much simper solution in a presentation called "Living in the North."

You need only a rifle and a knife. When stranded, you shoot a passing bear, disembowel him, and huddle inside the warm carcass until help arrives. Takes up less space and no nitpicking about down vs, synthetics, etc. Also, no issues with carbon monoxide and all that bothersome stuff

I wonder if a buffalo would serve as well s a bear.....

Presumably the danger is carbon monoxide in an enclosed space, rather than the flames.

Real men don't even need the rifle. We just use the knife.

Went and got 2 army sleeping bags,2 wool blankets,head gear,2 small packaged tents,gloves the other day at Mil Surplus Store.

Need that cold weather gear,this should go a long way to making vehicle more cold weather survivable.

Going to cover gear in these 7ml bags,10 for 20 bucks at Lowes or Amazon

"We just use the knife"
We Texans just use our TEETH!

Texans have teeth?

Always wondered why Texans packed the extra floss. First, to close up the "shelter" and then (I assume) to remove the bear bits.

(Geez, JP, lazy pitch across the plate? People can't resist; they're gonna take a swing.)

"they're gonna take a swing"
Swing away! In addition to BIG teeth, we Texans have really thick skin. Imagine a vampire crossed with an armadillo.

Something like this?:

"Something like this?"
Hey, where did you find that picture of Fluffy?

Just googled around for armadillo and that picture turned up.

Fluffy is my dogadillo, (cross between an armadillo and a really big dog). I bought him off Hagrid, Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Friendly, but a real bear to feed and bathe.