So, a real knife could have saved a few lives

Posted by: jzmtl

So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/07/12 04:18 PM

Background story, Ex white supremacist leader and army veteran shot up a Sikh temple, 6 dead.

Quote:
His community under attack, Sikh Temple of Wisconsin president Satwant Singh Kaleka fought back with all his strength and a simple butter knife, trying to stab a murderous gunman before taking two fatal gunshots to the leg.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/08/07/sikh-temple-shootings-victims-heroes.html

Not sure how useful it would have been, but a real knife would work a lot better than a butter knife.
Posted by: Paul810

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/07/12 04:34 PM

Being a Sikh, I'm surprised he didn't use a kirpan.
Posted by: clearwater

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/07/12 04:43 PM

Probably considered a concealed weapon and illegal.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/training/xus/crcl/headcoverings/kirpan.htm
Posted by: jzmtl

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/07/12 04:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Paul810
Being a Sikh, I'm surprised he didn't use a kirpan.


There was some controversy regard Kirpan in Canada a while ago, what I gathered is apparently many of them are either not sharpened, or permanently fixed into the sheath.
Posted by: Glock-A-Roo

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/07/12 06:30 PM

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will be ruled by those who don't.
Posted by: Mark_R

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/07/12 07:16 PM

From what I gather, a lot of the Kirpans in the US are either too small to be a weapon, or have been de-weaponized (fixed in sheath and dulled) to comply with local laws. I don't know what he was carrying or if he was carrying. My very limited understanding of the religion is that only intiated (10%-15% of the Sikhs) are required to carry the 5 articles of faith.

I did pull the Oak Creek municipal code and there is a prohibition on carry concealed fixed blades over 3", but no mention of open carry.

http://www.oakcreekwi.org/documents/municipal-code/Chapter%2011%20Offenses%20and%20Nuisances.pdf
Posted by: Burncycle

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/07/12 08:13 PM

Props for him for fighting back.

People still look at me funny for carrying a pocket knife, lighter, and flashlight sometimes.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/07/12 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: jzmtl
Background story, Ex white supremacist leader and army veteran shot up a Sikh temple, 6 dead.

Quote:
His community under attack, Sikh Temple of Wisconsin president Satwant Singh Kaleka fought back with all his strength and a simple butter knife, trying to stab a murderous gunman before taking two fatal gunshots to the leg.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/08/07/sikh-temple-shootings-victims-heroes.html

Not sure how useful it would have been, but a real knife would work a lot better than a butter knife.


That's a good observation. The FBI is treating this case as act of domestic terrorism under the U.S. Patriot Act. I call it guerrilla warfare. A soldier going into war and trying to stab an enemy with a butter knife is like that solider is committing suicide.
Posted by: quick_joey_small

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/09/12 08:08 AM

The Sikh bracelet makes a devastating knuckle duster that is always with you; a flip of the hand can make it rest round the top of the hand to strike with.
and "but officer I'm just wearing a bangle; you mean people actually use these as weapons?"

from Wikipedia:
Iron Fist Fighting, also known as Loh Mushti in Northern India (Punjab) is the traditional Sikh form of boxing. Instead of using gloves, the Sikhs would use their steel or iron bracelets, known as karas, which came in many sizes and forms including battle designs with sharp edges or spikes. Iron fist fighting can result in death.

qjs
Posted by: Lono

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/09/12 01:07 PM

Originally Posted By: ireckon


That's a good observation. The FBI is treating this case as act of domestic terrorism under the U.S. Patriot Act. I call it guerrilla warfare. A soldier going into war and trying to stab an enemy with a butter knife is like that solider is committing suicide.


From the same article on this tragic incident at the Sikh temple:

"Staring down the gunman Sunday morning, Kaleka managed to find the butter knife and tried to stab Page before being shot twice near the hip or upper leg, his son Amardeep Singh Kaleka said Monday.

His son said FBI agents hugged him Sunday, shook his hand and said, "Your dad's a hero."

"Whatever time he spent in that struggle gave the women time to get cover" in the kitchen, said Kaleka, whose mother was among more than a dozen women and children who took cover as Page forced his way into the temple. She dialed 911 while hiding."

Suicide doesn't come to mind for me. Hero. Protector. Selfless. Courageous. I'm not trying to misinterpret what you say ireckon, but the military analogy just comes across a little cold. The man acted heroically, most likely knowing he would suffer from it and face death as well.

I am not surprised he had nothing more than a butter knife to protect others. Its not my first instinct to expect folks to carry weapons for self-protection into a place of worship. In part that's probably why this cowardly attacker chose to effect his own suicide at this temple, its when men of peace gathered together are at their most vulnerable. Even after an event like this, men of peace do not necessarily have to arm up when worshiping. They can remain men of peace.

I honor this man for his courageous acts. And my condolences to everyone who suffers from this attack.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/09/12 03:42 PM

Well, I also honor this man for his heroic actions, and thank you for quoting me because I wasn't talking about this man specifically. As my quote says, I was talking about "a soldier going into war".

This case has been posted here for us to learn something about survival, not merely for us to admire this man's heroism. If someone knows they are going into a war and they must fight, then that person is essential a soldier at that point. If that soldier knowingly goes into war equipped with a butter knife to face attackers, when there are other gear options available, then that soldier is basically committing suicide. It's fair to assume this man didn't know he would have to fight in a war that day. However, if he did know beforehand, then...
Posted by: ireckon

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/09/12 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Lono
...I am not surprised he had nothing more than a butter knife to protect others. Its not my first instinct to expect folks to carry weapons for self-protection into a place of worship...


Well, I admit I used to think like that. However, after some thought and age, I now realize that mindset doesn't make sense at all. If there is any place a self-defense weapon should be carried, ironically, it's in a place where a whole bunch of people are known to be without weapons. For every mass shooting and for every killer that preys on unequipped victims, this concept is readily apparent.
Posted by: Mark_R

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/09/12 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: ireckon

Well, I admit I used to think like that. However, after some thought and age, I now realize that mindset doesn't make sense at all. If there is any place a self-defense weapon should be carried, ironically, it's in a place where a whole bunch of people are known to be without weapons. For every mass shooting and for every killer that preys on unequipped victims, this concept is readily apparent.


The nutballs out for a body count seem to concentrate more on heavily crowded venues. Whether the crowd has been disarmed on not doesn't seem to factor in. Just looking at the most recent incidents (Oak Creek Sikh temple, Aurora theater, Oakland Oikos university, and the Seal beach hair salon), most don't appear to be in traditional knife free zones.

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/

EDIT: I'm not advocating that carrying a knife is useless. A knife's day to day usefullness merits carrying one. I'm just arguing against the "unequipped victims" = likely target premise.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/09/12 09:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_R
EDIT: I'm not advocating that carrying a knife is useless. A knife's day to day usefullness merits carrying one. I'm just arguing against the "unequipped victims" = likely target premise.


You can draw your own conclusions, but the vast majority of mass shootings in America's recent history (last 50 years) have been in "gun-free zones" or "weapon-free zones". The stats aren't even close to being the other way around.
Posted by: Byrd_Huntr

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/10/12 02:24 AM

Originally Posted By: ireckon
Originally Posted By: Mark_R
EDIT: I'm not advocating that carrying a knife is useless. A knife's day to day usefullness merits carrying one. I'm just arguing against the "unequipped victims" = likely target premise.


You can draw your own conclusions, but the vast majority of mass shootings in America's recent history (last 50 years) have been in "gun-free zones" or "weapon-free zones". The stats aren't even close to being the other way around.


I believe the empirical evidence is overwhelming that these cowards prefer to attack unarmed people where they gather; schools, churches, sporting events, restaurants, and shopping centers.

The presence of one or two trained concealed carry citizens would have reduced the carnage in most cases. This has been shown to be true many times with nothing but speculation to argue against it.

Removal of the 'guns banned here' signs probably would have totally prevented the incident in that specific venue.

I'm not a fan of the added sound or graphics on this video, but the content is good.
The suspects were both wounded and were arrested shortly after the incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZod2qyyN4
Posted by: spuds

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/10/12 02:43 PM

Agree with Above post,me thinks a ruger 22 pistol may have stopped the guy.
Posted by: NAro

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/10/12 11:45 PM

For the record, I'm in favor of CCW for properly trained/prepared citizens, and I'm opposed to "no carry" zones for same. I won't argue against the position that a lawfully armed citizen might have made a big difference in several of the recent tragedies. I also, professionally, try to stay current on our scientific understanding (or lack thereof) of violence risk factors and perpetrators. That being said:

"the vast majority of mass shootings in America's recent history (last 50 years) have been in "gun-free zones" or "weapon-free zones". The stats aren't even close to being the other way around."
I'd appreciate being directed to any credible studies which address that conclusion. Not necessarily doubting the comment...just would like to have the actual data.

"I believe the empirical evidence is overwhelming that these cowards prefer to attack unarmed people where they gather..."
Is there any data regarding what "these cowards" think, or prefer? The FBI, DOJ, and Secret Service Behavioral Sciences units have the most data... and I can't find anything which says this about the perpetrators' thinking processes or motivations.

"Removal of the 'guns banned here' signs probably would have totally prevented the incident in that specific venue. "
Is that so? If the killers have such aberrent thinking as they appear to have, could taking down signs have "totally prevented" the incidents? I know a lot about psychosis and delusional ideation (NO..not from my personal experience with the voices in my head, folks...) and it isn't that simple.

Many (hopefully all) of the opinions expressed in this thread come from (hopefully) sane, reasonable members here. So they sound like just good sense to me. The problem is we non-crazy minds are trying to understand the thoughts and motives of some pretty crazy killers: we have little hard data to help us do that, at this point. The assessment or prediction of threatening behavior and who will become violent toward others is imprecise and subject to significant error. At this point in the scientific understanding of these issues we are guessing, and there is currently no unchallenged data regarding the factors which increase vs decrease risk. I'd like to take some comfort in the assumptions that allowing CCW and elimination of no-gun signs would dissuade deranged killers, but I can't. Perhaps armed citizens could quickly kill the killers once they got started on their spree - but would we prevent them from getting started?
Posted by: ireckon

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/11/12 12:43 AM

Originally Posted By: NAro
"the vast majority of mass shootings in America's recent history (last 50 years) have been in "gun-free zones" or "weapon-free zones". The stats aren't even close to being the other way around."
I'd appreciate being directed to any credible studies which address that conclusion. Not necessarily doubting the comment...just would like to have the actual data.


When I made my post you quoted I was going to list all of the mass shootings (three or more people) in the last several decades in America. However, they are quite numerous, and I was not motivated enough to organize the data and provide the list. I can offer you my word that the vast majority of the shootings were in gun free zones. Specifically, most were schools. There were also places like the Amish school shooting in 2006, where guns may not have been technically banned (I don't know), but where the gunman did not face armed opposition due to the particular community's culture of being weaponless.

I am still unmotivated to organize the data and provide the list here. If somebody else wants to take the ball and run with it, then I'm sure some people will appreciate the effort.

Important point, we may not need to know the actual mindsets of the madmen. We can make educated guesses from the stats. It's common practice to analyze historical data to predict the future. For example, if you were to guess the more likely place a mad gunman would strike of the following two locations, where would you guess: (1) a crowded high school auditorium in Colorado or (2) a crowded police station in Colorado? What would be your reasoning for making your guess?
Posted by: Byrd_Huntr

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/11/12 02:16 AM

Originally Posted By: NAro
Many (hopefully all) of the opinions expressed in this thread come from (hopefully) sane, reasonable members here. So they sound like just good sense to me. The problem is we non-crazy minds are trying to understand the thoughts and motives of some pretty crazy killers: we have little hard data to help us do that, at this point. The assessment or prediction of threatening behavior and who will become violent toward others is imprecise and subject to significant error. At this point in the scientific understanding of these issues we are guessing, and there is currently no unchallenged data regarding the factors which increase vs decrease risk. I'd like to take some comfort in the assumptions that allowing CCW and elimination of no-gun signs would dissuade deranged killers, but I can't. Perhaps armed citizens could quickly kill the killers once they got started on their spree - but would we prevent them from getting started?


No one here is trying to predict the exact actions of a madman, nor do I see any claims that there is a way to consistantly prevent their actions. There are just a few common sense traits that are present in human beings, one of them a tendency to go towards the path of least resistance. If you are selecting a target for high body counts you are insane, but not necessarily stupid....lowest on your list will be a gun range, a police picnic, a military live ammo drill. A bit higher might be a bank or a shopping mall (there might be an armed guard or CCP individuals there). Next level might be a school or a theater...but which one? If there was a choice between one that advertises that it allows CCP guns, and one that posts a sign that it bans guns, that target is softer...an easy choice.

No one could prevent the start of carnage, but a couple of CCP in the crowd and well placed shots would end the madmans murderous rampage before he could kill everyone. It may also give publicity-seeking copycats pause.

The Internet is brimming with studies, articles, and anecdotes, as is every back issue of American Rifleman, backing up much of what has been said in this thread. Bringing it all to ETS requires more time than I have right now.

John Lott is a gun expert, I am not. You might begin your research with this article and others by him...

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html/
Posted by: hikermor

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/11/12 02:24 PM

This is a highly emotional subject, and objective studies are pretty rare (my try for understatement of the year). Can anyone cite some that do not have an axe to grind?

I have heard (and read) diverse opinions about John Lott. Frankly, I'm uncertain....
Posted by: ireckon

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/11/12 03:46 PM

The beauty about the Internet is that all the info is readily available to do your own research and to reach your own conclusions.
Posted by: Byrd_Huntr

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/16/12 11:54 AM

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news...?cid=hero_media
Posted by: spuds

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/16/12 05:19 PM

Oops,seems my opinion on granny vrs security guard was inappropriate.Deleted. I will be more careful to not post anything that has a political media slant in any shape or form in the future.

No more weapons/defense/media response opinion posts here from me.Got it.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/16/12 06:08 PM

Originally Posted By: spuds
Love how its viral that a SECURITY GUARD did it,when Gramma takes a couple shots at the gangbangers it seems to get buried.

Agenda IMO.


The security guard countered the shooter with his bare hands. That is a more acceptable means of self-defense, and will therefore be pushed through the major news feeds. A civilian effectively using a gun for self-defense is not to be promoted. It's better to be a martyr than to shoot and kill a madman. Guns are evil.
Posted by: chaosmagnet

Re: So, a real knife could have saved a few lives - 08/16/12 06:28 PM

Stay away from advocacy henceforward, or the thread will be locked. If you're not sure whether something you're thinking of posting constitutes advocacy, PM me.


chaosmagnet