Rattle Snakes?

Ok fellow ETSers, I need your help. My son and I are going backpacking for a week in Ontario's Georgian Bay rattle snake territory this summer. Snakes are not part of my experience so I'm looking for your guidance.

Here's what I know so far:
http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/on/georg/natcul/natcul2.aspx

-watch where you are walking and where you put your hands and feet
-give them a wide birth
-wear boots and long pants

Any sage advice to share on how to prevent a bad memory? It's black bear territory too so we'll be taking all the standard precautions for them. Should I just be thinking of snakes in the same way I take care against the big bruins?

Just a couple of quick thoughts, FWIW;

First, from the link it sounds like there are several local snakes that could be mistaken for each other. I'd suggest treating all as if they are a rattler.

Second, I've been told they will slither away from noise/vibration etc. if they have a chance, and will strike if surprised or cornered. This is where a good walking stick might prove valuable. Use it to poke around in any place a snake might be or where you don't have a good view of what is there, especially before you stick your hand in or reach to pick something up. Helps give the snake warning and helps you keep your distance.

Thanks BWS! I'm with you about treating all snakes we see like rattlers. Any differentiation can come when we're home looking at the pictures.

Walking sticks are a great idea too. We usually just grab downed branches but I wonder if a steel tipped pole might be a better defense? We don't want to hurt them and are expecting most of them to slither away from us as long as we give them the chance.

I would agree with BWS and I would suggest bear bells. While they will do the whole Bear thing, they may make you loud enough to keep the snakes away.

I am not sure if you’re up for it but I would personally buy some snake proof chaps, pants or boots.

But much like you I have to admit to not having much experience with snakes. I actually have a total phobia of them. My joke is that I do fur, feather and fins, but not scales and slithers.

LOL@Tyber. Sounds like we're cut from the same cloth. I wouldn't say I'd scared, but definitely have a healthy dose of caution. We're going with a group of Scouts and are going to have a bear and snake education session for everyone before we leave. Our other leaders have been before but I'm a rookie this trip.

Bear bells are permanently attached to our packs to warn bears and coyotes. I'm going to look at snake boots for sure, possibly something more like snake proof pants.

What about sleeping? Anything other than the obvious zip 'em up tight?

I live part of the year in the desert of Southern Arizona. Big time snake country.

Walking stick is a must have item. Probe anywhere you can not see clearly. Snakes can be very hard to see.

Don't pick up anything without first nudging it with your stick. I have seen snakes along side of rocks etc that were invisible until I moved the rock.

Snakes can only strike about 3/4 the length of their body. If you are beyond that distance you are safe to retreat. If closer, keep the stick between you and the snake so you can bat it off to the side if it strikes, but do not get the stick near the snake. The strike will be very fast, but you will probably hit the body and deflect the head. Move away quickly. 5' or so will suffice.


They use heat to image their prey more than eyesight. They will not fix on the stick like a cobra fixes on the flute of the snake charmer.

They really don't want to have anything to do with you. If one blocks your path, WAIT until it moves which could be several hours. Do not try to hurry it along. Go around it if possible, keeping at least 10 feet away if possible. At that distance you are probably not going to be a threat.

If you plan to stop for a few minutes in an area, first "sweep" it for about 20' in all directions. Your toe sticking around the edge of a rock has a similar heat signature to a small rodent.

I don't like them but they are a fact of life here. Our community has frequent encounters with them. They are dangerous, but usually they just want to be left alone. After the first few encounters the fear will subside a bit. Don't get complacent.

Nomad.

Thanks so much Nomad! Excellent point about not relying on what we can see. Walking with heavy feet and using a walking stick to check for snakes is great advice.

i live and work in rattler country. some as long as 5 feet (they grow them even bigger in places like texas). 25 years of seeing them often and i've never run into a problem. (fyi - we don't wear special gear of any sort)

suggestions:

watch where you step.

step up onto logs, then step over in big steps (don't just step directly over the log as they may be under it and within striking distance of a leg if frightened).

don't reach under ledges/logs/rocks/decks/etc without first checking the area.

don't climb steep hills hand-over-hand, as its easy to find yourself eye-to-eye with one.

don't expect all rattlers to rattle. they often don't or can't.

leave them alone, just walk around them.

but if you do have to kill one, don't handle it after wards. very dead ones, or even fully cut-off heads, can & do bite.

our family had a cottage up that way,Bruce Peninsula,and i was up there since i was a toddler in the 40's.never saw or heard of any sort of rattler doing any harm.i hiked around up there until the late 60',same thing.

All the documentation and stories we've heard leave me thinking that it's going to be AOK. We're travelling with experienced people, with strict rules and guidelines. I guess I just need to be a diligent Scouter and put Mama Bear in the back of my mind.

most everyone has covered the basics... down here we have Gopher Tortoise that dig underground burrows, and the Diamondbacks like to dwell there too.. don't know if you have anything like that up there, but keep the kids from exploring holes just in case...we have a very aggressive snake in the Cottonmouth Moccasin that is a much greater threat... they have a downright nasty temper...

Great advice Wiley. Thanks!

Great advice! Thanks Les!

Nomad & Wiley really nailed it. I am in the desert of trail, on trail quite often. I mostly see rattlesnakes soaking up sun on car trails in direct heat or on rocks.

The only other advice I'd give aside from reading each of their points 3 times so it soaks in, is stay on the path or trail, don't cut it just to shave a few extra feet of walking.

And I suppose regarding a hiking staff or poles, they don't need to be special. Its the thumping that will get them moving. A straight branch you picked up on the ground, a set of $10 Walmart hiking sticks, or a $120 set of Leki's will all sound the same to a snake.

And I suppose a FINAL note. Don't let the fear of snakes interrupt what should be a fun time. I have been with people who have fixated on the mere idea that snakes could be in the area once out of a car and it ruins the whole trip.

Careful, Jac. I saw Rango, and rattle snakes can shoot bullets from their tail like a machine gun! But don't be taken in by the desert tortoise. It's tons worse than the rattle snake!

hahaha!! You know, that snake was the first thing my son thought of when I told him we're going on this trip.

I've run into many snakes - all of the North American poisonous ones - in my life. When I was living in Texas. On only one occasion did I ever think a snake was aggressive. That was a water moccasin (a.k.a. "cottonmouth"). He did not "attack" or anything like that, but he stood his ground and wouldn't move out of the way. I've run into many water moccasins and it was only this particular one who appeared belligerent. Most will hightail it towards the water. Don't confuse them running for the water with an attack if you happen to be standing between them and the water. They'll just fly right past you. Every other snake I've run into, including many many rattlers, were more than happy to run away when given the opening to do so.

Walk down the middle of the trail. Not to the sides.

Thanks comms! I totally agree with what you say, especially the last point. I'm a firm believer that knowledge is power and that it something scares you the best thing to do is to learn about it!

Thanks haertig!

I am told rattlesnakes are especially good eating.

laugh as you will, we never let things go to waste so do partake.

its clean fairly-tasteless white meat so tastes like how you cooked it. ie: if fried, its simply tastes like the type of oil and/or breadcrumbs used.

there isn't a whole lots of meat on even a 40-incher, but still worth doing. almost all usable meat is on the back-strap. meat on the ribs is so thin as not to be worth hassling with, even on big one.

for survival, it's a easy catch, fast to clean and wonderful fuel.

A lot of good information in this thread.

Rattlers can strike about 2/3rds of their body length unless they're coiled up. When they're coiled up they can strike three times their body length. It's hard to figure how long they are when they're coiled up, so give them a super-wide berth.

Don't put any part of your body into any place you can't see. Check your shoes and clothes carefully. Make sure there isn't the slightest path for them to enter a warmer place at night, like your tent or your sleeping bag.

I strongly recommend an avoidance strategy with any snake not positively identified as harmless.

Put some form of Y On the end of your walking stick so if need be you do have something you can pin it down with.

Seconder on the walking stick. They serve as an extention of your walking circle. You don't even have to use it to poke around, just the process of waving it and it hitting the ground is enough to make snakes wary. It gives you a bit of a comfort zone.

2ndly, keep your camera handy. I missed taking a photo of a 4-5' rattler and simply got the smaller 3' rattler in the lense because the bigger snake was faster than I.

Georgian Bay is nice area. I kayaked around Killarney area some years ago. The sandstone & granite rock reminded me a lot of sand dunes, esp. at dusk.

I always use a hiking staff during snake season, which is most of the time in the desert where I live. The advantage of the hiking staff is it will vibrate the ground ahead of you when you plant it and it can be used as a stick to move a snake out of your path, if necessary.

Most people that are bitten by rattlesnakes are fooling around with them. Bad idea. Another thing to think about, they can get into low branches of trees and get higher up. They rarely do that except when irratated at something, like someone messing with them.

Best advice, is look ahead where you're walking and under and around rocks, logs and brush. Avoid any snakes you may see, do not mess with them.

Have a safe and fun trip!

Provided you follow the precautions ably outlined here, rattlesnakes are an insignificant hazard. In more than twenty-five years of SAR in southern Arizona, guess how many snake bite cases we handled? Zero, none, nada, zip. We did deal with one victim who was startled by a sudden encounter with a snake and fell...

I attended a presentation on snake bites by a Tucson physician who identified two varieties of victims - 1)small children playing around the house. These were bad because of the small size of the victims and the frequency of bites around the face and head. 2) males 17 to 25 years old who were deliberately hunting and handling snakes, often coupled with alcohol consumption as well.

I agree that a hiking staff or stick, as well as caution, in brush or rocky areas will work well. Pay attention to seasons and temperatures. On hot sunny days, snakes will seek shade. On cold days they will seek sunny areas. If you become familiar with conditions, you will be able to predict their presence and activity level rather well.

Occasionally, circumstances have required me to kill the snake, but in general I am reluctant to do so. All snakes do a great service by keeping rodent populations in check - you could profitably debate the proposition that snakes have preserved about as many lives as they have ended simply by limiting rodent populations and the fatal diseases (like hanta virus) the rodents vector to humans.

All in all, rattlesnakes are a fairly insignificant, albeit spectacular, hazard.

Still, it took me a couple of years after moving to the Channel Islands, where there are no rattlesnakes, to relax and crash through brush with wild abandon.

A trick we teach kids out here in the desert is to watch for cow patties. It might be from a cow, or it might be a coiled up rattler. Be safe jac.

Les is right about the cottonmouth. They'll come come right after you like an ambulance chasing lawyer. No offense to any lawyers who frequent these pages . One night in the mid 1980's I had a group of students out in the desert to teach them Stalking techniques and I was walking point. When I came to the three strand fence where we would cross and change into uniforms I heard that scary rattle. I froze, said some bad words and swung my gear bag down low in front of me and backed off. We moved down a ways to cross. The snake didn't strike my bag, BUT I suddenly realized how small it was and the scant protection it offered me.

Corn snakes are pretty. Horned toads are good to keep bugs down in the house. As are pet preying mantises.

They are Bob. Especially with garlic salt and pepper. Most snake are good eating. But not as good as a batch of frog legs.

Nast buggers, eh Izzy? The .357 on the belt of my hiking fanny pack is just a four inch Taurus but the first two rounds are CCI snake shot from spring till first snow.

If one must kill a snake, either a shovel or a handy rock works much better than a 357. Cheaper, too. Snakes are common on many archaeological sites in the southwest, especially those with rocks and masonry walls, and a shovel is what I have had handy. Always did the job chop chop.

Hiking staff is essential. Some times when hiking in FL, and I wasn't worried about snakes, I'd wave mine about in front of me depending on the landscape. Nothing is freakier then getting a face full of spider web wondering where that spider is. Although a banana spider is not dangerous like the brown recluse or black widow, its amazing how big those webs can be. <Chills>

Great idea. Thanks Snake!

Thanks Chaos. Great advice!

Thanks Chaos. I'm definitely bringing a camera. I haven't been in that area since I w a kid and then we did it mostly on the water. I'm really looking forward to this trip!

Thanks Widget!

I like that Snake. Great idea.'Thanks!

not helping you two!

In every rattlesnake encounter I have ever experienced, the snake went off in one direction, and I went in the other. The only exceptions were situations where the snake was cornered, and had no options; even then, they never "attacked."

Phew! That's better.

I have seen rattlesnakes become incredibly aggressive. I've only seen it in the desert on very hot days; the local wisdom is that when they get too hot they go crazy. I have seen a rattlesnake viciously pursuing and attacking an innocent pickup truck. Whether that's the reason I don't know, but I've never heard of something like that happening in more temperate regions.

You're too big to eat, so if you don't startle them they'll almost always choose to leave.

Right. In grade school we called it "cold blooded" but that's why they need to seek shade when it's hot and the sun is high. Too much heat bakes the noodle.

In Floriduh (home of the largest rattlers in the world) I was struck by an aggressive rattler. He was just about to shed his skin, and his eyes were cloudy. Never made a sound. I have since learned this is when they are most vulnerable and therefore aggressive.

Dunno if a pic will post, but my wife photographed my punctured jeans with the venom stain. Snake weighed 22 pounds. Oh. And he got the jeans, not me!

Thanks for sharing that, Unca_Walt. I'm glad he didn't get you!

Ditto!

all of the other posts have excellent information.

especially when it comes to inquisitive children, this nails it.

you are in their home, they don't want you - you're too big, leave them alone, and go around them if at all possible.

a poster above said to watch for 'cow pies'. could be a coiled snake. typically seen this way.

and i have also seen them stretched straight out from the roadside like a stick.

keep your eyes open. and have the kids leave them alone.

That was my post about cow pies. Yes they stretch out also, but I have never seen on stretched straight. One night I was walking along the dirt road which runs past the ranch and saw a dark line on across it. I had an uncomfortable fifteen minutes until discovered that it was the electrical cord from an appliance.

Oh c'mon Hiker. If it's close enough to be a danger you won't be able to hunt for rocks. Thats when a load of #6 shot comes in handy. And Not many people carry shovels when they hike. If I can avoid them or let the live I do so.

Shudders. I hate spiders. Been bitten many times. I do however let a few daddy long legs share my abode.

LOL.That wasn't my post jac.

Sorry Jac. Think of it as preparedness info. Blames Izzy and points. Bad Izzy!

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Wow! That's a pretty high strike for a rattler. Must have been a big one!

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A few quick snake stories. When I was twelve one of my brothers teenaged friends showed up at our place drunk and with a prairie rattler in a gallon jar and proudly sat it on the dining table. It was already agitated and he began slapping the sides of the jar thring to get it to strike. It wouldn't so the brain surgeon unscrewed the top and stuck his hand inside to slap the glass. I told him he was going to get bit and he said he wouldn't. and didn't. It never once struck him, just rattled and hissed. Eventually he left to take his treasure to someone elses home.

One day we were driving down a freshly graded irrigation ditch, not far behind the big dozer and saw more than a dozen snakes. My oldest son jumped out and caught one. It was a bull snake a bit over five feet long, missing the tip of its tail and an eye. We were sure it had been a pet at one time. It was very human friendly and would sleep in my lap or in the kangaroo pouch of my baja hoodies as I did tasks around the house. We had him for years.

A girl I had been dating and I went for a walk in the River Park. She spootted a snake and went into a tizzy and and I pinned him with a stick and picked him up, trying to educate her that he was harmless and helpful. She would have none of it staying a minimum of 20 feet away. I let him go and watched him slither away.

I would pick up gopher snakes, after being sure that it was not a rattlesnake that was simply missing its rattles, and I was continually amazed at how quickly they would gentle down and relax. They were better than cats at keeping the wretched rodents in check.

We had to catch mice for Cartouche. (The Bullsnake) Never seen a gopher snake. Snake can be good pets.

Have Fun hiking,Period!No Worries,just common sense!& No,they will not partake sleeping with you in a sleeping bag,that's Pure Bulloney!A coiled rattler will Not strike 3 lengths of their body,All snakes can swim,most choose not to,due to temperature drop!Have Fun,take pictures,Cheers!

I agree about live and let live with respect to snakes, but one time I violated that principle, and more than a few National Park Service regulations, when I was working on a project at Chiricahua National Monument, living in a trailer at an abandoned dude ranch within the monument with my wife and one year old daughter. A very healthy, fat and sleek diamondback showed up one afternoon, and I was merciless. First I wielded my relatively new S&W, featuring my hand loaded snake shot (#8, I believe). Unloaded at close range, my loads did nothing. Out came the shovel, and Mr. Snake got a lesson in long division. A long handled, round point, suitably sharpened, is the ideal tool for this, and many other tasks.

If you absolutely, positively must kill the snake, you will be motivated enough to find plenty of rocks - trust me on this. But the best course is to go your way and let the snake go his.

Best marinated and grilled.

From reading this thread I'm grateful for (Eastern) Washington's mellow rattlers - I have stepped over more rattlers than anything. I think that comes from being exothermic, I tend to hike in cooler hours and snakes aren't out and about yet, but even on a hot afternoon I don't find rattlers to be scary.

Except around kids and animals. If a dog isn't raised to be cautious around rattlers, they risk getting bit on an encounter. I've heard too many sad stories about favorite companions either dead or suffering along a trail because the dog wasn't on a leash, approached a rattler too aggressively, and was bit.

I've never encountered a cottonmouth and don't want to - my trips to Florida are quick and don't typically allows for snake and reptile encounters. shudder

@ Bacpacjac:

Snakes are a topic I'm very familiar with. I grew up, and currently live in rattler country. Have handled a few by hand (don't recommend.) And still hunt them occasionally (they taste great grilled.)

You pretty much covered the highlights yourself.

Situational Awareness
Boots
Walking Stick

Rattlesnakes are fairly docile, so long as they're not antagonized. They can strike 2/3's their body length, not x3, (I have indeed tested this.) Still... wide berth.

The one thing I would mention that hasn't been said, rattlers have VERY good camoflauge. If you're not looking for them, you WILL NOT see them, so .. situational awareness.

They're not a big threat. Just keep your eyes open, is all.

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seven feet, ten inches.

Here is one of THREE rifle slings that I made from him. That is Fuzzy, giving my crossbow a sniff-spection:

OK, I've had a few encounters with rattlers in SoCal.

First, if you hear the rattle, it doesn't sound like a baby rattle or anything. The closest sound I can equate it to are those automatic pop=up sprinklers that you see in places like golf courses. When they first pop up you hear the "ppsssssttt... pop, pop" as they start shooting water. Anyway, it sounded really similar. Enough so that I stopped and thought "Why is there a sprinkler here?!?" in the middle of a mountain range.

Second, they sometimes hang in groups. Before you retreat, check around you to make sure you don't step on his buddy.

If you're moving real fast, sometimes you'll cruise right over one. I saw one once, my dog went sprinting past me and kept going. I waited 5 minutes for the snake to get off the trail (and a couple of rock-carried suggestions) and couldn't call back my dog because I was afraid she'd get bit the second time around.

Cold mornings - they like to get near heat, ie, around your sleeping bag or tent. The nice thing is they're pretty sluggish in the morning. I stepped literally inches away from one, bent over trying to find some keys, and realized my face was about 2 feed from a rattler one morning. It didn't budge, but I sure did.

Have fun!

I've heard many Rattlesnakes,& many of them sound just like a Baby's rattle toy,or marachas,I've heard some that sounded like a Rainstick,I've heard & watched some, that hissed with No rattle at all!I never thought of sprinklers,Only a doctor would think of such,being they like Golf so much,lol!

Have had a few encounters with rattlers.
1 or 2 close calls.
All this stuff happened several years ago in CA.

The close calls were pretty much MY OWN fault.
I should have been paying more attention to where I put my feet.
Generally rattlers will let you know if you're close to their space. So their rattle and reaction is actually a big advantage.

I would not be troubled if i were you.
Chances are that you probably wont see a rattler, unless you are lucky - OR you are walking through the underbrush. My best piece of advice is to move SLOWLY, use a walking stick (probing ahead with the stick), and look carefully. But if you stick to trails, I wouldn't think you need to worry.

I do agree with the comments that a real rattler does not sound like what Hollywood depicts. To me, the sound was more like an insect that suddenly started flying from ground level. That being said - the sound still got the job done. I sprang back and went "Whew!!!". Hahaha !

Sometimes encounters with rattlers can be really cool. I saw a cute baby one crossing a trail in Kings Canyon (CA) one time. And I found a whopping big one on a back road in the Santa Monica mountains one time too. But truth is - these snakes would have only been a problem if I did something really stupid. Like harassing them or trying to pick them up.

Have fun on your hike. :-)

Pete2

When I think of "rattlesnake sound", I think of those little plastic boxes of TicTac breath mints, half full, shaken as short and fast as you can.

Another "synonym" for that rattlesnake sound that I conjure up is one of those old party favor noisemaker toys. I don't know what they're called, but it's like a pencil-stick you hold upright in your hand and you swing the top around with centrifugal force, sort of like a hula-hoop motion, but with your hand. It makes a buzzing-type sound.

Funny how many of us associate the rattlesnake's sound with some other more common everyday sound. And the sounds we choose to describe with are all so different. Probably each snake has its own semi-distinctive variation of the sound, and we're all remembering the one that made the biggest impression on us!

i think it is safe to say that if you are paying attention to your surroundings, when you hear one, you will immediately know what it is and you will never forget the sound.

I agree that a buzz tail makes a very distinctive sound, but there are some insects, mostly cicadas, that sound enough similar to make you pause.

we have a plant (arrowleaf balsamroot) up here that when it dries hard in late summer it rattles just like a rattler. a gust of wind causes it to sound off, as does walking thru them. makes it hard to go for a hike without having a heart attack.

I believe I said if it were a danger, Hikermor. If you can back out of the danger zone to find rocks then by all means have at it. I'd rather wait the snake out or discourage it somehow. #8 is a little light for snakes. I'd suggest #6 in a CCI shot capsule and drive it fast. As for you killing that snake, I would have done the same if I had a child around. My son bought a hefty bull snake from a pet shop once. Not only was it an escape artist, but it bit. A lot. I was tempted to kill it but instead I drove it out in the desert and turned it loose.

One day the poultry were having a fit. It wasn't thier "I found GOLD!" noise like when they found the worm beds or when we hand fed them bread from the day old bakery outlet, so out i went, curious to what had stirred them up. I knew it wasn't Dr. Suess AKA Hitler, a cochin who would get on the deck and strut back and forth, squawking until he had the rest in a frenzy then would hop down and strut through them like a dictstor. A rattler had made it's way into our yard and was just as scared and confused as they were it seemed. I grabbed a shovel with the intention of picking it up and putting it in a bucket so it could be released. Suddenly I noticed I was a lot closer than I wished to be to him. Tom, our huge Broad Breasted Bronze Turked was pushing his chest against the back of my legs and he peered around one and screamed encouragement to him. The snake didn't co-operated so I had to take it's little head off. But we ate the snake nd I made a hatband from its skin and the rattles went to my youngest son, so it's passing wasn't a total loss. Though regrettable.