COMPASSES

It's too quiet in here, time for another controversial question. (Listens to Chaos weeping.) Lol Just kiddin' Chaos. Here it is. What compass do you rely on most? Please specify make, model and why it's your choice. Over the past several yars my skills have become a bit rusty so I've been practicing with a cheap base plate model from Wal-Mart until I find my old Silva.

Suunto army issue, I was trained in its use 16 years ago and it has never let me down. it's easy to operate and maintain and operates in mils vs deg which I have become used to over the years. I thought about upgrading once or twice but if it ain't broke.....

I am a fan of the Suunto Amphibian compass. I also have a compass on my rugged phone that allows me to "cheat" (it is a true compass and not just GPS, though it does have that)

I have thought several times of getting a Casio Triple Sensor watch that has a built in compass as well but not 100% sure how good they are.

Tyber..


(edit for spelling)

I have a Casio Twin Sensor which contains a compass which seems accurate enough, although I have never had to use it in a pinch. Still,it is a nice backup. My main compass is a Suunto MG, which I have carried it for years, but rarely needed to use it. On land, in the mountain west, a compass is a it like a first aid kit. You carry it a lot, but rarely use it. But when you need it, you really need it. It is important to be aware of sources of local variation, which can deflect even the est and most expensive compasses.

I assume we are talking about compass use for route finding, and not for surveying or map making, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Controversy would be declaring "the age of the compass is over - the iwhatever will be better."

I think my compass is a Suunto. I haven't pulled it out of its pouch in the last 10 or more hikes. It's one of about 8 that I own. I'm not real particular about compasses. I just don't want bubbles in the capsule.

I have all cheap compasses. I don't use them all that much. I can usually tell which way is north by the sun.

but sometimes the clouds restrict my ability to see the sun and I am forced to use one of my various $1-5 compasses.

Mostly, if it is 5 or 10 degrees off it does not make much difference to me. I am not doing any precision navigation here. I am trying to follow a trail that is on a map mostly.

I have an inexpensive milsurp lensatic compass that I'm partial to.

I do not use a compass much except for general directions. I usually rely on terrain association, unless I am in featureless terrain, night, heavy fog or dense forest. I have a variety of Suunto, Silva and Brunton. When I am teaching, I generally use the Brunton because I have the instructor kit from that company. But I generally teach more reliance on terrain association and a good map.

Check out Grady's recommendation from a previous thread on compasses:

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=240212&page=3

TruNord compasses seem well-constructed, and sets declination for your location.

No mirror: Suunto M3G with the global needle

Mirrored: Suunto MC2G with the global needle

Moving fast on an orienteering course: Suunto Arrow 6

Many people who say precision landnav skills are not necessary actually don't have those skills or the experience to know if the skills would be of use.

Like Hikin_Jim is with stoves, I am with compasses. I have one or two (or three or four ;-) from most of the major makers and lots of others. Lots of styles as well, needles, cards, baseplates, mirrors or not, lensatic, etc.

Brunton Pocket Transit - most used, but not ideal (too heavy) for the use I assume you are talking about. My most used compass other than that is an old Silva Huntsman. Small, easy to use (as either a baseplate or just a direction finder) and accurate, it works well for most uses. I always carry a more precise compass as a backup, they are too light to worry about not having extras. Most of the button compasses in my various equipment are removed (including the one in my RSK). I usually teach general navigation with the Brunton 9020G. Good and inexpensive (you will probably carry it a lot more than you use it) and has setable declination.

As others have said, it is truly terrain dependant how much you will need it, but when you do you want a good one. Precision is often important when you need to use a compass. On the great plains, on the arctic tundra, you can see a long way most of the time and your accuracy is less important. If you are in fog, a few degrees can make the difference between finding home or walking a lot then surviving :-) until the weather clears.

Good compasses are available from lots of makers, but in the US, don't buy a Silva marked compass. They are now made in China and broken ones are common. If you want a Silva, buy a Brunton or go overseas to buy it (I have bought several from vendors in the UK - gee the internet is great). Suunto is great (I love their wrist compass and the Arrow 6 is super for it's purpose).

Respectfully,

Jerry

If I need accuracy, either the Suunto MC-2G or M-3G. The mirror compass has a slight edge in pointing accuracy, the baseplate is lighter and simpler.

That said, the compass I've used more often is a little globe compass that pins onto my shirt -- for when you don't need precision to 1 or 2 degrees and N-E-W-S is good enough.

I have a small collection of compasses, but the two models I use most often are both Suunto, the M-3 series and M-5SK.

While I have several versions of the M-3, my favorite compass is the M-5SK. The M-5SK is somewhat hard to find, but is basically a M-3 with a longer base-plate.

I prefer simple, base-plate compasses. They have every tool I need in a compass in a lightweight package that easily disappears in a shirt pocket.

I've got a Suunto, Silva and Brunton, but I have to admit, I rarely use them (because I seldom need to. EDIT: Not because I'm depending on more technical technology. I don't need to because we haven't done any serious off-roading lately where navigation has been a issue.) and am getting quite out of practice. Refreshing and practicing my Land Nav skills needs to move up my priority list, especially before the next time I go out with the Cubs and Scouts when they're doing it.

Very true. Thanks taurus.

Very few of us are going to be doing any land navigating in fog, total darkness, or on featureless terrain.

These days, GPS is far more reliable than the skill set, an expensive compass, and a map in the overwhelming majority of cases.

No doubt someone could come up with a contrived situation where that is not true, but the chance of the contrived situation coming true is very limited.

Hey Tyber, Used the Triple Sensor for several years until it got so banged up that it was off a bit. Put a compass and thermometer on the band as back up and got another year out of it. Thanks for responding.

I use one of two Silva Explorers if I'm actually working with a map. One of them is 30y/o and the other was my father's and must be close to 50y/o. Neither has let me down in any way.

They're not built to take much abuse, but I keep them in a small water-tight orienteering kit, so they're well protected. I've tried to imagine a situation where they would not be sufficiently accurate, but can't. I try to backsite or reference an auxiliary fixed point for course correction whenever possible... never had do a long direction-only traverse with one.

travlite

Yep. Orienteering. I should have specified that. Thanks hiker.

Very informative. Thanks. Jerry.

Sounds like it could be a learning experience for your little one Jac. Thanks for responding.

My good one is a Ranger. And my old mil with tritium has seen much service. Thanks nighthiker.

I'll give you three guesses. First two don't count.

My only concerns with GPS, which is great, are that the system could go down when I may need it, and battery failure. That's when a compass can be a lifesaver. Thanks for responding.

I use a Suunto MC1G Global, The reason is that it has the global needle that will work properly anywhere in the world and because it is a very reliable, well made compass.
http://www.thecompassstore.com/sumcmimeco.html

I have an old (1970's) Silva Ranger that I used for many years but eventually got a bubble inside that kept getting larger until I retired it. I did not buy another Silva because the name Silva in the US now belongs to a different company than Silva Sweden and the compasses Silva USA sells are nothing like the genuine Silva compass. Most of the Silvas sold now in the US are made in Asia and are just not that good. The Brunton compasses sold in the US are made by Silva Sweden and are excellent. So, the choice for me is Suunto or Brunton.

I love compasses. I carry about 3 in my EDC pack not including my iPhone apps. 2 are just small button/ watch strap compasses in my EDC box (2 is 1, 1 is none). My primary is a rotation of a GI Lensetic, Silva Ranger or Suunto M3.

On my Ranger I taped a patch of glow in the dark tape under the bezel that holds a charge for quite a while.

If your interested in different compasses, I always go to The Compass Store Mostly because I have always wanted a Gentleman's Compass but every type is well established there.

TIP: On my map cases I sticky back velcro little button compasses to help.

skill set. Y'day I came across a booklet that might help out. It will allow you to work on Land Nav issues without having to leave the house. I haven't bought it yet but I think it has merit. Navigation Challenge book

Anything technical will fail on you when you least expect it and need it most. I have even had basic compasses get broken in the middle of negotiating obstacles. A planning acronym we used to use is that works with equipment as well is PACE: Primary, Alternate, Contingency and Emergency. Primary is self explanatory, but always carry supplies to keep it working (batteries for the GPS), Alternate is another way of accomplishing the mission in case the first way is not working (map and compass), Contingency is case you can't accomplish the mission the way you initially intended, but may have another way of doing it (Knowledge of major terrain features and navigate from memory, button compass in your survival kit) and Emergency is when SHTF and you are just trying to survive the experience (flare, strobe light, PLB or a good route out to safety, overdue on your plan you left with friends).

That looks like a good resource to pick up. I worked my way through Wilderness Navigation by Bob & Mike Burns last year and one of the things I really appreciated about it was the practice problems it supplied. They really helped to ensure I was understanding the concepts correctly.

With regards to the original topic, I have a Suunto MC-2DL NH. It seems like a solid and reliable compass and, as others have mentioned, the map scales on the base plate make map work a bit easier. I also find the mirror makes it easier to use than one without, plus the mirror has a few other non-navigation uses.

The chance of GPS going down is very low. Close to nil. The chance of it going down at the exact second one might need it is even lower.

Failure of some kind of the GPS unit, including battery failure, is of course possible. I suspect anyone relying on anything with batteries will have spares. But it could be dropped, or sat on and broken like a lot of things.

But it is also not real hard to break a compass, or to lose it. It is also not unheard of for local oddities such as deposits of magnetic materials to throw a compass off by a substantial amount.

I once had a similar discussion with a guy who absolutely was convinced that only a mil-spec compass with tritium backlight was worthy. I kept trying to get him to tell me why I could not use my flashlight to look at the compass at night, or why I would want to. Eventually he said it was because when one is on patrol at night one does not want the enemy to see the flashlight. I also got a line about how one could still use a compass that had a tritium backlight, even if one had no flashlight. I did get some kind of a response about walking in the desert at night so one could walk when it is cooler, which made more sense than the patrol idea to me. I never got much of an answer when I asked how he was planning to walk in the dark without a flashlight. NV maybe. Sometimes it is not real productive to try and get people past their preconceived notions.

I am not going out on patrol any time soon. When I go out in the woods it is recreational in nature. I would never go anywhere any distance from civilization without a map and a compass. These days I would not go without a GPS either. I think of them as a backup to each other, even though I am not the world's most adroit user of GPS. That is something I should probably practice more.

Quite true. I don't travel OCONUS but Suunto's global needle has 2 features that endear it to me:

1) It settles very fast, and stays stable enough that you can refer to it while moving and maintain reasonable accuracy.

2) The compass is more forgiving of not being held perfectly level. You are less likely to get the needle brushing against the capsule's inside surface when you are tired, rushed, and it is getting dark.

BTW in my earlier response on this thread I should not have taken such an elitist tone. I was mistaking what is dear to me as being dear to everyone else; wrong move. I do maintain, however, that if you get truly skilled at doing demanding landnav the everyday stuff becomes not just easier but second-nature, and your awareness of the experience is enhanced.



Agreed. When unfolded completely the MC2G's mirror housing lines up perfectly with the baseplate, giving you a substantial straightedge when working with the map. Unfolded to 90-120deg or so and set on a log or rock, it allows hands-free use of the mirror when I'm dealing with my contacts or extracting a foreign body out of my eye (which has happened). And of course it can be used to signal, which is appreciated here at ETS more than most places.



Well said. When I was planning a relief trip to Haiti (didn't wind up going though), a doc who is retired .mil helped me develop an exfil plan based on PACE. The "E" element was pretty desperate...

Murphy's law says, and has repeatedly proven to me, that if it anything goes wrong it will go wrong at the worst possible time.

You're less likely to break a compass or GPS then you are to lose it. I've lost a number of compasses over the years and have picked up GPS's that other have lost. This is just general trail walking and not from catastropic loss (i.e. ditching the pack after ending up in the river) that would require a PSK.

As for a reliable compass; any brand name needle compass should do. I haven't tried the big military lensatic compasses, but the keychain disk compasses have questionabe reliability.

Both a compass and GPS are subject to loss and failure. In any case you should make an effort to be constantly aware of your position.

I fear many people simply wander around and then pull out the GPS when it is time to go home.

It is such an easy skill to lose if you don't keep it up. I am kind of fortunate in that I have to teach it every year as part of IBTS Training.(individual battle tasks standards) I have no other choice but get into the books so I don't look like an idiot teaching it to the new guys. Especially the young Officers. Damn these folks are thick. You have to dumb it down to a 5th grade level for them.

(Insert long winded rant about new officers here)

Teaching it to others always forces a person to be extra careful and I find it an excellent way to remain up to speed. You will find it all comes back very quick and you will be teaching those cubs and scout 1,2 and 3 point resections and intervisibility in no time flat.

My perference is the Silva Ranger with the Brunton 8010G as a back up.

Both can be adjusted for declination.

I agree with an earlier comment that navigation is a perishable skill that does require practice.

Blake

www.outdoorquest.blogspot.com

Wonder how the soon to be solar flare will affect GPS?

Won't affect my compass - GI issue - at all.

The ranger is a good compass.

I have a Cammenga tritium lensatic compass just like the U.S. militaries.It is heavy as all "heck".But I like that because it is "bomb proof" and can take some pretty good licks.It is a dry cell compass which means no air bubbles.The tritium vials are self luminous and can be used at night.It is the kind of thing that could be passed down a generation or two.I think Thseng likes them also.....

BOATMAN
John

He's working on it, Snake. He's still at a rudimentary level of general direction finding and tracking, but he's starting to get the hang of it. We've done a little orienteering and I expect to do a lot more. I need to brush up soon! I'm keeping a close eye on this thread to kick start that. Thanks for starting it!

I prefer the see-through plastic baseplate orienteering kind of compass ... with liquid filled capsule and adjustable declination.

Brunton (which includes the real Silva) and Suunto make nice ones.

I have the Cammenga lensatic and find it super solid, but clunky.

I don't have much use for small button compasses. They tell direction, but not much help with map use.

I used the Cammenga compass with tritium in the military. (issued). I was not overly impressed with it. Back then I could read the bezel by the tritium, that was the feature I liked best. The trit dies after 10 years or so, something to consider. In the military, 30 or so years ago the tritium feature was nice to have. Nowadays with NVG's all over the world, the trit can compromise you in a hurry. from quite a distance in fact.

For civilian use I much prefer the clear baseplate/protractor type compasses. My Suunto is the metric version which means it has UTM scales for 1:25,000 and 1:50,000 maps, I have a separate one for 1:24,000 USGS maps. I try to buy maps from mytopo.com and they let me choose 1:50,000 which I prefer. Military training still kicks in here and there :-) If I have to navigate at night I need a light anyway, old eyes, glasses and no one to hide from!

I still see some folks prefer Silva Ranger compasses, the present USA ones are made in Asia and are not really Silva brand at all, just in the USA. I don't recall what year Silva USA dropped the genuine product and went to the Asian made products. In all other countries of the world a Silva is a Swedish Silva. You can find more detailed info around the Internet, if interested.

FWIW I also noted today that Brunton no longer sells the Silva (marked Brunton) compasses. There are still some available from various vendors but Brunton no longer has them on their site and most popular online outdoor vendors have run out of the Silva marked Bruntons.

Brunton still offers several USA made compasses

http://store.bruntonoutdoor.com/navigation/

I carry a Brunton Type 7 in my pack for use with a map, and an old Taylor brass pocketwatch type compass on a lanyard for simple direction finding.

Most of us are at least somewhat familiar with the Brunton/Silva saga. But beware, in America not all Bruntons are rebranded Silvas that are made in Sweden. I've checked the packaging on some mid to high end Brunton compasses and they said "made in China".

If you're ordering online and want to be sure you're getting a real Silva, you almost have to order from Europe.

Or you could skip all that hassle and get a Suunto.

Definitely seems like the easiest way to go!

Yep! Suunto is the way now. Best compass out there of the orienteering type. The globals are a good investment for travels outside North America.

My most often used compass is my watch, a standard mechanical military issue Marathon GSAR, only works in the daytime and being in Australia, I usually have the Sun handy (hey you didn't specify only magnetic compasses) it is accurate to within 5 degrees. When it is cloudy I use my Brunton Pocket Transit, the best little big compass that I know. Yes, I agree that it is a little heavy, so it stays in the car and is used for general purposes while travelling. My favorite is a Silva Sightmaster compass, I had to leave mine in the states when I returned to OZ as the balance was all wrong for the southern hemisphere.

My backup in my PSK is the NATO survival escape and evasion button compass, not that accurate, it consistently points about 20 degrees of north, I think it was shipped too close to a magnet I have yet to tear it apart and remagnetize it. It is slightly better than looking for lichen on trees.

Lol non I did'nt, did I? Thanks Mac.

I mentioned that I ran across this in another post, but I thought I mention it here too since its appropriate. Apparently Brunton has recently moved is manufacturing from China back to Riverton, Wyoming.

http://county10.com/2012/03/14/a-360-tur...ton-from-china/

I'd be curious to try out their new mirrored compasses (I like their high-end ones) but the prices seem kind of high.

Very interesting, thank you Ken. I hope this move results in an improvement for Brunton quality.

From the article:

Quote:

General Reiner praised the Brunton compass, noting that Brunton has been supplying the military with it’s compasses for decades. “When you go to war, you are only as good as the equipment you have, and the compass used by the U.S. Military is a Brunton Compass,” he said, to cheers from the audience.

Umm, say again, over? Did Brunton take over the contract for the lensatic compass from Cammenga?

Maybe some Brunton compasses were made in China but a recent Brunton 8010G has "MADE IN U.S.A." in raised lettering near the lanyard.

A few notes on compass brands:

Brunton Inc. has completely revamped their compass line since they lost their association with Silva of Sweden. Some of their best compasses that were imported from Silva of Sweden, like the Brunton 54LU, are long gone. Before dropping the Brunton 15TDCL Expedition and 16DLU models, the last production was reportedly coming from China. Brunton also dropped the Eclipse line of compasses built in China (8096, 8097, 8099, etc.).

The old Brunton line of 'optic-green' baseplate compasses (8010, 8020, 8040, 9020, etc.) has been dropped.

Brunton now has a new compass series called O.S.S., all of which have the circle-on-circle magnetized disk feature of the old Eclipse line. It is important to note that ALL Brunton compasses with the O.S.S. designation will be assembled in Wyoming from components sourced from only USA manufacturers.

Silva USA/Silva Canada: Johnson Outdoors has owned the sole right to market Silva brand name compasses in North America (this includes Canada) since 1998. The original Swedish-made Silvas are no longer sold in the U.S. or Canada, except through gray-market channels.

At first, Johnson Outdoors sourced many of its Silva-branded compass models from Suunto. However, this practice largely ceased several years ago (some discontinued models may still be around, like the Silva 424 wrist sighting compass which Suunto made based on their M-9 wrist compass). Suunto-made Silva compass packages usually state 'Made in Finland' or have a Finnish flag on the package. Otherwise, since at least 2008, anyone buying a new, non-grey market, 'Silva' branded compass in the US or in Canada has been buying a product built to Johnson Outdoors specifications from a factory in Indonesia.

Silva of Sweden AB: For a time, one could get a Swedish-made Silva in North America by purchasing a 'Nexus' brand compass from Brunton, who was importing some of the Silva of Sweden compass line under these brand names. However, this source ended after Brunton was sold off by Fiskars, Silva of Sweden's parent company at the time. Brunton and Silva of Sweden parted ways and ceased importing each other's products.

Silva of Sweden, the original Swedish manufacturer of the Type 15 Ranger, Silva 4, Silva 54, etc. no longer distributes ANY of their compasses to North America since their connection to Brunton disappeared. Silva of Sweden still makes many of their recreational and military compasses at their facility in Haninge, Sweden, though some models are now reportedly made at a Silva-owned production plant in mainland China that opened in 2005.

Suunto Oy continues to produce its Finnish-made line of needle compasses, along with the Recta brand. Suunto bought Recta AG of Switzerland in 1996 and it was from Recta that Suunto acquired its now-famous 'global needle' design that can operate in all magnetic zones. Suunto's adoption of the Recta Turbo-20 global needle system for some models (MC-2G and MC-3G, DP-65) has one other benefit. The global needle settles noticeably faster than the standard needle compass, with less wobble.

Recta AG: As mentioned, Recta AG is now a subsidiary of Suunto. Today, most Recta baseplate compasses are slightly disguised versions of Suunto models assembled on the same production line in Finland. Recta baseplate compasses are hard to find in the USA, as Suunto never established a distributor network there, though you can get them in Canada. For a time, Recta matchbox compasses were still being made in Switzerland at Recta's compass production facility in Biel (my recent Suunto DP-65 was simply a relabeled Recta DP-65 with 'Recta' and 'Switzerland' on the bottom of the housing). However, Recta's website states that all Recta compasses are now being manufactured at the Suunto Oy factory in Finland.

Kasper & Richter GmbH of Germany acquired the Eschenbach compass line from Eschenbach Optik GmbH in 2004, including the expensive Meridian and Meridian Pro direct-sighting and prismatic models originally made by Wilkie of Fürth, Germany (Eschenbach acquired Wilkie in 1976). K&R have have introduced some new baseplate models and smaller compasses. Not all K&R compasses are made in Germany; some of the less expensive models are imported from China or Taiwan.

HTH

Thanks for info.

Pete

Normally I just roll my eyes on the YET again, 1 millionth statement on here, regarding where Brunton or Silva make their stuff or who owns who. But I am glad TimLarson mentioned that Brunton has changed up their line with the new OSS stuff.

I was at REI last week and all they had from Brunton was the new OSS models. Their base plate models go from 10B, 20B, 30B, 40B, and mirrored are 50B, 60B, 70B.

The 40B looked a lot like their old 8096 adventure racing model that I have, most of the base plate is the same, the bezel and pointer are different. The eclipse circles are actually smaller I think inside the compass.

I really liked my Brunton 8096 but it has a large bubble in it and no matter how many times I am told it doesn't affect it, I fixate and only take it out when I feel like playing around to verify another compasses heading. In a few months if the word on the OSS models is that they don't eventually develop the bubble, I will get a 40B to replace the 8096.

Interestingly enough REI no longer sells the Ranger model and Silva's stock was noticeably smaller. I checked while writing this if Silva still makes the Ranger and they do, but it wasn't in the REI store or their online site.

"I really liked my Brunton 8096 but it has a large bubble in it and no matter how many times I am told it doesn't affect it, I fixate and only take it out when I feel like playing around to verify another compasses heading."

Same thing happened to me after a year. Unlike the 8096, the O.S.S. 40B is to be USA-made, but still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

"I checked while writing this if Silva still makes the Ranger and they do, but it wasn't in the REI store or their online site."

Yes, Johnson Outdoors/Silva USA still makes their (North American) version of the Silva Ranger, the Ranger 515, now built in Indonesia. They appear to be addressing the criticisms of some customers by adopting a 2012 version with a bezel (dial) reminiscent of the older Silva Ranger. JO also ditched the heavily-criticized two-piece split mirror for a single panel with an etched sighting line.

This is has been a fine thread.

I really appreciate the input and discussion.

I carry the Silva Ranger with the old Brunton 8010G as a back up.

So I'd say my personal practical approach would be:

1. I alway carry a map set, not just one map.

2. I generally carry two compasses.

3. I carry and rely on my GPS a lot. I use a Garmin 60 with maps loaded for the area I will be in. I carry extra batteries and when opperating from a base camp, and when I leave the GPS on all day I put in fresh batteries as the day closes out.

4. I concur with Montenaro's thoughts about Terrain Association. These are my back country hand rails and provide visual clues along my path.

5 I orient my map regularly along my path.

6. I consult with my partners; I learn from them too.

7. I am comfortable with my map and compass skills.

8. Common sense is a wonderful thing.

Blake

www.outdoorquest.blogspot.com

No, he was referring to the U.S. M2 artillery transit aka the Brunton Pocket Transit. It's always been made in the USA to my knowledge.

Some Brunton compass models, like the Eclipse line, were made in China. They had problems (print and markings wearing off early, permanent air bubbles, etc.) The new O.S.S. line of compasses are all made in the USA.

I sent my circa 1984 Silva Ranger to Brunton and they replaced it for me. See what they will do with yours...

WOW! This thread is sytill alive? I feel so old now. :,(

Absolutely Widget. I've seen many tritium devices through my optics at night. Even the so called commando watch bands leak light.

Yes SD, your child has grown