Starting FIRST fire?

Been thinking about fire, and it's importance in some of my scenarios. As you may know I'm not always convinced that fire is practical in some circumstances' but I did think about how I'd get a fire started in the worst of conditions - wet, cold etc.

What struck me was how many kits seem to equip us to light dozens of fires, but perhaps not one in crappy circumstances - what I mean is that I don't expect to have to live off the land for weeks, but I can imagine spending a night stranded in a storm, when I would need a lot to help get damp materials going. And of course if you can't survive the first night, the rest becomes moot anyway

So what is your 'never-fail' firestarter - Zippo and an esbit tab? Blastmatch and wet-fire? Roadflare? What do you turn to if you really have to get a fire going under pressure?

Potassium permanganate & glycerine will not fail you. Have tinder and stand back! It would be nice to have an Esbit/Hex/fatwood fuel to put on that bad boy...

What has always worked for me are plain old kitchen matches, in situation where it was really necessary. That was because a lot of these situations occurred years ago, when matches was all I had. I now carry redundant items - usually a Bic lighter or equivalent, matches, and some kind of metal match/sparker, along with tinder, Esbit, and a small bottle of hand sanitizer, which lights quite readily(65% alcohol). I also tend to sprinkle mini-Bics throughout my packs and bags. Nowadays if I am planning for an overnight, I almost always carry some sort of a stove, usually a MSR Pocket Rocket and canister, along with a small cook kit, which usually has its own lighter.

The ability to start a fire has been absolutely critical for me on about ten occasions. I have been able to make or find shelter when necessary, but having guaranteed fire makers on my person has guaranteed a survivable night.

There are, however, times, at least here in the Southwest, when under no circumstances should one even think about starting a fire, not even a stove. Those, conveniently, are conditions when it is so hot and dry that a fire isn't vital. When conditions are that extreme, it is also a good idea to defer your trip until it rains.

It goes without saying that you need to perfect the skill of making fire before it gets critical. I am definitely rusty, compared to the past, partly because I usually have something in the way of fire starter or stove which makes it easy.

http://www.jacklondons.net/buildafire.html

Mini Bic kept warm and a ferro rod, with a multi tool to make tinder and strike a spark

Lifeboat matches or a windproof lighter and some dry flammable tinder are fairly reliable in bad conditions.

A flame from a match or lighter is more effective than a spark, especialy in cold wet conditions.

Means of producing a spark such as a ferro rod and striker have the merit that hundreds, maybe thousands of fires may be started without re-supply. That could be a lifesaver in a long term emergency, but is of less importance if caught outdoors for a night or two of bad weather.

Ferro rod, vaseline soaked cotton balls in a tin can stove for a base and wind protection.

for EDC, I'm with Jackie on this one...a vaseline cottonball will fit in about 4" of large diameter plastic straw, and makes a pretty small package... coupled with a small diameter ferro rod and section of hacksaw blade... fits in the multi tool pouch along with the Leatherman Squirt and Streamlight TacPro 1L....on the other hand, I think I would stash a couple Bic lighters and pack of road flares if I lived up in really cold country...

I am inclined to agree that the only fire that matters to me is the one I might need right now in an emergency. I think a butane lighter and cotton balls soaked in PJ will work fine. In my case I keep the cotton balls soaked in PJ inside a small zip lock bag. My plan is to light the whole thing. Plastic bag and all. I have a fire steel type tool as a backup in case the butane lighter does not work. But the lighter is the first choice.

Never had to actually use it for emergencies though. I am kind of amazed that anyone would have had 10 emergency situations where they needed a fire in their life.

It's an important point that the first fire is really important so one had best carry what will really, really work.

I find it difficult to practice. My winter hiking area prohibits fires so the idea of hiking out a ways and taking a break by kindling a practice fire is not possible.
In that case the most important fire is the one that happens when I turn the key to start the car to go home.

I've not yet had reason to start an emergency fire (and hope I never do!)

With what is currently available either on the market or in the kitchen, I don't think LIGHTING a fire is the hard part. The hard part is keeping a fire GOING when it is pouring rain and 35 degF. Everything in the forest is soaked. There are no convenient conifers offering sheltered twigs and pitchwood. How do you do crack that nut?

ILBob,

Don't be amazed, it just means that Hikermor has spent a lot of time in the woods.

I a completely with Hikermor, the many (I haven't counted) times I have NEEDED a fire (for myself or others) a kitchen match was sufficient. For tinder I have used (and still carry) a 3" square of old t-shirt cotton soaked in wax. It has worked many times (summer and winter) in the Rockies as well as a few times in Coastal and interior Alaska. In western Canada I lit one at 35 below that way (a dog sled driver with hypothermia). Glock-A-Roo is right though, keeping it going is the tough part. It takes practice, but it does work. A saw and axe (or just the axe and more work) are often needed to make burnable wood in those conditions, but it is usually available, even in the worst of conditions (except of course on the tundra and the other treeless regions of the world.

Like Hikermor I have upgraded my carry gear, but I still rely on matches as the start of it all.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I agree on the keeping fire going part. I like cotton/vaseline
plus some large chunks of pine pitch to give me more time for
the kindling to catch.

The kitchen matches I have purchased recently, are nearly strike
no-where. Its seems like they have changed the formulation
and even sandpaper or the perfect rock won't work. Do I have
just bad batches?

These are good points. Fire STARTING is one thing but fire KEEPING is quite another. Most of us carry probably more than one fire starter, but I'd guess fewer of us routinely carry very much in the way of tinder, and especially not kindling or anything to reliably feed and keep a fire going. I don't.

I also like cotton balls in petroleum jelly for compact and lightweight carry. I've used corrugated cardboard strips rolled up inside a small empty cat food or tuna can and soaked in paraffin for campfires, and I have found a road flare to certainly be a reliable source of fire in wet and windy conditions. However, flares are a bit much for routine carry afield. Hmmm, I wonder what could be made of a cut-up road flare's constituent parts for a lighter weight, more compact tinder source?

Supposedly, the heat from a small candle will help dry out tinder before lighting it, but I've never actually tried it in field conditions of cold, wind and wet myself. Generally, I've found a splash or two of Boy Scout Holy Water from my stove (Coleman fuel/white gas) sufficient to get things going well enough and long enough so that any damp fuel stacked next to the fire had time to dry out enough to light and burn.

"Fire Starters in FREEZING CONDITIONS"

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http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=210085#Post210085

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Hi,
Although I have haunted these pages for some time this is my first post. Please bear with me if I do it wrong. I carry a disposable lighter, a magnesium fire starter and matches in my pocket when in the outdoors. I also carry some tinder cubes of my own design which burn extremely hot and high for several minutes. A trick I use is to dis-assemble a chap stick tube, discard the cup and snip off the stem just above the retention knob. This can easily be waterproofed, but use waterproofed large kitchen matches. It holds several matches around the perimeter with the heads alternated up and down. A trick or regular birthday candle in the center, and in some cases a compressed cotton ball under the lid. I hope this helps.

That is one of my favorite stories.

Nice!

But I thought you were going to say you use the chapstick wax as fuel. Burt's Beeswax makes fantastic fuel inside a cotton ball. In fact, it's probably better than petroleum jelly because Burt's Beeswax doesn't run as easily. However, it is more money per volume and is not as versatile as PJ.

thanks for the compliment.

i keep this in the pocket of my PFD.if i go over board from my canoe and have to swim for shore without the canoe and packs i would use this canned heat and a Bic to start a fire.

the cord is attached to the back with a bit of JB Weld and would be used to pull open the can if i had cold hands.the cord on the pull ring is attached with Super Glue so it won't move when i yank the cord to pull the lid off


once lit it's just a matter of putting whatever is around that will burn over the flaming can.

Excellent reminder Glock. Fuel for the fire can be a big challenge and one you'd best be proactive about.

My preference is to use dry wood but I keep a tea light candle in most of my kits and esbit tabs in my GHB and BOBs, and am just starting to experiment with sterno.

One of my faves, Byrd. Thanks!

Welcome Snake Doctor!

Awesome idea, Canoedogs!

You definitely won't,as long as you don't make a career in the National park Service or volunteer for SAR. Don't climb any mountains either.

Just a bit about matches. The normal garden variety matches available in the 60's and 70s were much better than what is available now. Today a mini-Bic is my normal igniter, with REI Stormproofs, or equivalent, as a backup. I solved the problem of keeping the fire going in pouring rain and other epic storms by simply carrying a gasoline stove, which was the first item I bought when I signed up at REI. Now I carry a canister stove fairly often. We have eaten warm meals in 80 mph winds on Denali, using a well sheltered stove (yes, we cooked in the vestibule).

You can keep a fire going in adverse conditions by building it big, much bigger than it needs to be, shielding the flames with big logs and bark, etc. and working very hard. A very handy implement is a short length of 1/4" rubber tubing. You can fan coals and incipient flames wonderfully and speed the blaze along extraordinarily well with this gadget. A stove, any stove, is soooooo much better than an open fire in any but ideal conditions. Pay attention to Hiking Jim - he speaks with straight tongue.

Frisket mentioned potassium permanganate and glycerine. The combination works very well, but I wonder what happens if the two substances get together accidentally. I just don't want to find out how well my pack burns....

Another great technology for fire starting is a carbide lamp, but those are just about extinct these days. Too bad - both heat and light, and fairly lightweight.

Here's a fun video about fire...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=bj289XVoQTA&NR=1

Haven't seen this series before. Looks like there are 12 episodes. Nice. Thanks, Byrd!

The PP doesn't know if it's an accident or not! When the two meet, there's gonna be some fire. GoingGear.com sells some capsules of PP, they really appear to be just plain old gelatine capsules! I wouldn't use them for any reason! I keep the PP in one BSB (baby soda bottle) and the glycerine in another one, and I keep them isolated with some stuff in between them. Probably the BSBs seal plenty tight enough that it's not an issue, just playing it safe.

One other method I'm contemplating is the PP in one sealed aluminum fob and the glycerine in another with both stacked into one tube. Just have to make certain there's no leakage, but realistically both would have to leak to cause issues.

I'm purchasing a large commercial style chamber vacuum sealer within the next week or so (a Vacmaster VP-215C). This will seal retort pouches. I expect it will give me a few more options for packing PP & glycerine.

Canoedogs - that is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind - very nice. When the SHTF, I need a quick fire and the ability to dry out whatever fuel may be within easy reach - I don't want to have to go foraging for dry wood as hypothermia sets in.

I've started keeping a pack of hand-held boating flares in my snowmobiles. They work well both for signaling and for fire-starting.



I know from experience they're much easier to use than matches or a lighter when you've lost a lot of fine motor control from hypothermia. (As a related experience, I also learned that it's entirely possible for it to rain when the outside temperature is well below freezing) .

Thinking about the OP's well taken point, I have been thinking about trying Coghlins Fire Paste.

Seems to me it could be useful in drying out wet kindling, emergency torch, maybe some thawing tasks, or priming stoves.

Have any of you tried this stuff? Does it take a spark?

I like the way you think.. I carry a ferro rod and cotton balls, but to Heck with that when hypothermia is setting in!!

I have done some car camping in the past. It inevitably rains while I am camping. I never had much trouble getting a fire started or keeping it going in the rain. I usually put up a tarp over a picnic table so there was a dry place to sit and eat, and it was not real hard to start a fire under one edge of it - usually the end away from where the wind is coming from. You might think it would damage the tarp but if it is 8 feet or so above the ground and the fire is not real large it works pretty well. Especially with a light breeze. Not that the wind cooperates all the time. It seems like sometimes the wind shifts almost continuously in both direction and intensity. I do not know how to keep a fire going in a serious downpour though without some kind of overhead cover.

A guy camped next to us one time had a piece of angled sheet metal that he set up over top of the fire pit when it rained. Looked kind of like a pitched roof over the fire. He was more or less a resident of the place though, and could afford to be a little more elaborate than us more casual campers.

Another guy that came thru one time in a bus (a very pricey bus) had some kind of flat topped "u" shaped piece of sheet metal he used for the same purpose, but I think he used it to cook on as well. Kind of like a wood cook stove.

I have stacked up large pieces of wood, especially flattish bit with bark in teepee style over a going fire. The large pieces shield the fire and burn away gradually as they dry out. The fire needs a lot of tending in heavy rain, but it can be done. It is much easier to carry a lightweight stove.

I've used similar stuff (an alcohol gel) for getting smooth ignition in normal temps and for preheating my Coleman Peak1 stove when in really cold temps.

I've always considered the paste to be a supplement to my emergency fire starting tools. (though I admit it's not in my daypack)

Besides carrying a Bic lighter and a fire steel on my key fob, I also have devised a little "fire tube" to keep some of the essentials in.

I have taken 2 Papermate Flexgrip pens (cap style) and removed the writing end and replaced it with the the other top end from the second pen. It no longer serves as a pen but I have found that I can put cotton balls, a ferro rod pried from a magnesium bar and some pre-shaved magnesium flakes all inside.

Open the cotton ball end, remove cotton ball (you might have to pick at it a bit to get it out), pour some magnesium from the other end onto the cotton ball, strike with ferro rod, (you are carrying a knife aren't you? ) and hopefully POOF!

You can even use the pen cap to help carry it in your pocket.


No affiliation with PaperMate. blah blah blah.

I have been carrying a County Comm "Split Pea" lighter on my key ring for the last three or four months. I haven't had to use it for real, but it is light, compact, and durable so far.

No connection with County Comm, just a satisfied customer.

I have magnesium in lots of different flavors and sizes. I hate to sound like a noob, but I just don't quite understand why it's relatively popular. For awhile, I was acting as if I liked magnesium because many others were so enthusiastic about it, the military carries it, etc. Unfortunately, Mg burns so fast that it's really hard to get a flame started from it. There is probably some specialized situation in which magnesium shines (?). Anyway, I still can be found carrying a small stick of magnesium, just in case I learn of its value during a real emergency.

EDIT: Come to think about it, would magnesium help to ignite a damp cotton ball? Hmmm, it's time to experiment.

It's definitely time to experiment before the emergency.

I tried my magnesium block while on a family campout in a campground. I basically couldn't effectively use the mag shavings as they were so light as to blow away in the slightest air movement. Or I didn't figure out how to shave them right.
I still carry a mag block with ferro rod but at my skill level, the block is just a rod holder.

My butane lighter is my primary starter, strike anywhere matches with tinder cubes are my secondary and the mag block and ferro rod are a distant 3rd.

A 2x2" piece of duct tape will capture the Mag shavings(duct tape burns Good) or you can tear off a longer piece & roll it upon itself,making a tube, having adhesion all around,& stuff the tube with dry tinder,ie.:feathered fatwood works Real Well,but any thin tinder will do in a pinch.If it doesen't flame up,upon lighting it,look for a coal,& blow it into a flame.It took me 3 times to get it down pat,Now I get a flame or coal 1st try,Always! Have fun!

The magnesium is supposed to be used in conjunction with normal tinder (like a birds nest). You scrape a little off into the tinder, you hit it with the spark, and it helps the tinder catch.

If you use it that way, it works great. If you try to use just the magnesium as tinder....you'll be there all day.

I'm no nOOb but I can't do squat with Mg no matter how I use it. It's the element that makes me feel stupid.

Watching the"Masters of Survival", it was interesting to hear each of Les, Dave, Cody, Bear and the Hawkes give accolades to the bic. "Just carry a ding dang lighter!" sayeth Mike.

I EDC a bic but they don't like the cold so I don't depend on it.

I have never had any use for magnesium blocks. IMO they are heavy, and not worth their weight in my pack. Pack a Bic Lighter & a Ferro rod, you'll be much better off.
Cotton balls, lint, jute, are all much lighter than a Magnesium block...

[b][/b]Thanks Bacpacjac. I've long admired and have respected your postings.

Here's a quote from John Muir's Travels in Alaska about building a fire in the rain. (Mods, this is in the public domain.)

One night when a heavy rainstorm was blowing I unwittingly caused a lot of wondering excitement among the whites as well as the superstitious Indians. Being anxious to see how the Alaska trees behave in storms and hear the songs they sing, I stole quietly away through the gray drenching blast to the hill back of the town, without being observed. Night was falling when I set out and it was pitch dark when I reached the top. The glad, rejoicing storm in glorious voice was singing through the woods, noble compensation for mere body discomfort. But I wanted a fire, a big one, to see as well as hear how the storm and trees were behaving. After long, patient groping I found a little dry punk in a hollow trunk and carefully stored it beside my matchbox and an inch or two of candle in an inside pocket that the rain had not yet reached; then, wiping some dead twigs and whittling them into thin shavings, stored them with the punk. I then made a little conical bark hut about a foot high, and, carefully leaning over it and sheltering it as much as possible from the driving rain, I wiped and stored a lot of dead twigs, lighted the candle, and set it in the hut, carefully added pinches of punk and shavings, and at length got a little blaze, by the light of which I gradually added larger shavings, then twigs all set on end astride the inner flame, making the little hut higher and wider. Soon I had light enough to enable me to select the best dead branches and large sections of bark, which were set on end, gradually increasing the height and corresponding light of the hut hre. A considerable area was thus well lighted, from which I gathered abundance of wood, and kept adding to the fire until it had a strong, hot heart and sent up a pillar of flame thirty or forty feet high, illuminating a wide circle in spite of the rain, and casting a red glare into the flying clouds. Of all the thousands of camp-fires I have elsewhere built none was just like this one, rejoicing in triumphant strength and beauty in the heart of the rain-laden gale. It was wonderful,--the illumined rain and clouds mingled together and the trees glowing against the jet background, the colors of the mossy, lichened trunks with sparkling streams pouring down the furrows of the bark, and the gray-bearded old patriarchs bowing low and chanting in passionate worship!

My fire was in all its glory about midnight, and, having made a bark shed to shelter me from the rain and partially dry my clothing, I had nothing to do but look and listen and join the trees in their hymns and prayers.

Neither the great white heart of the fire nor the quivering enthusiastic flames shooting aloft like auroral lances could be seen from the village on account of the trees in front of it and its being back a tattle way over the brow of the hill; but the light in the clouds made a great show, a portentous sign in the stormy heavens unlike anything ever before seen or heard of in Wrangell. Some wakeful Indians, happening to see it about midnight, in great alarm aroused the Collector of Customs and begged him to go to the missionaries and get them to pray away the frightful omen, and inquired anxiously whether white men had ever seen anything like that sky-fire, which instead of being quenched by the rain was burning brighter and brighter. The Collector said he had heard of such strange fires, and this one he thought might perhaps be what the white man called a "volcano, or an ignis fatuus." When Mr. Young was called from his bed to pray, he, too, confoundedly astonished and at a loss for any sort of explanation, confessed that he had never seen anything like it in the sky or anywhere else in such cold wet weather, but that it was probably some sort of spontaneous combustion "that the white man called St. Elmo's fire, or Will-of-the-wisp." These explanations, though not convincingly clear, perhaps served to veil their own astonishment and in some measure to diminish the superstitious fears of the natives; but from what I heard, the few whites who happened to see the strange light wondered about as wildly as the Indians.

I have enjoyed thousands of camp-fires in all sorts of weather and places, warm-hearted, short-flamed, friendly little beauties glowing in the dark on open spots in high Sierra gardens, daisies and lilies circled about them, gazing like enchanted children; and large fires in silver fir forests, with spires of flame towering like the trees about them, and sending up multitudes of starry sparks to enrich the sky; and still greater fires on the mountains in winter, changing camp climate to summer, and making the frosty snow look like beds of white flowers, and oftentimes mingling their swarms of swift-flying sparks with falling snow-crystals when the clouds were in bloom. But this Wrangell camp-fire, my first in Alaska, I shall always remember for its triumphant storm-defying grandeur, and the wondrous beauty of the psalm-singing, lichen-painted trees which it brought to light.

Never really had a problem with MG. I pre-shave some into a piece of foil and keep it in the bottom of my match case. Also I use it to start fires in nice weather, saving my matches and lighter for more demanding conditions. For wet conditions the old paper shot shell with a candle inside will dry out kindling FAST! And dry wood can normally be found by splitting wet wood.

Byrd..i swear by that fire paste,every spring a buy a new tube and take it with me on the canoe trips.i like it because you can use a dab or a big blob depending on how much starting you need.with a heap of birch bark a bit on a edge helps things along fast.with the dry, but wet from the rain,black spruce twigs and branches a nice big squeeze of this stuff will get a fire going.it works great to pre-heat stoves.it's fast to use,no scraping or fooling with gizmos just the touch of a match will do it.i don't take a sparkier for everyday use so i don't know about that.i was using the Army heat tabs but a hold in the foil and they went to dust.other tabs were burning uselessly after the fire was going and wasted.i like candle stubs if it looks like it's going to be a really hard start but the fire paste gets 90% of the use.
by the way i'm in for the BW in early June this year.i hope i don't have the storms i had last year and can have a fire rather than huddle in the shelter in every bit of clothes i have.

i just got down to the end of the posts and see that we are on magnesium blocks.has anyone ever tried to light a full block?
i had a guy tell me that his unit would "light the candle" to signal aircraft.

Does anyone know, can you start this fire paste stuff with a firesteel? If so, it sounds like a great pair to carry along on canoe trips or in wet weather. I always carry a BIC lighter for the "easy" fires (no wind, not terribly cold, etc.) But I like the idea of something that will be easy to use in the worst of conditions. Micro size and ultra lightweight are not concerns of mine. I'm really only a dayhiker these days and I don't mind a few extra ounces if that gives me a significant survival edge. I am not one of those "you can split a match into four useable pieces" kind of guy. You're more likely to find me carrying multiple match safes choke full of tons of matches. And a BIC. And a firesteel. And a small fresnal lens. I want that "survival edge" and having all these things might just supply that edge. These are not heavy items. I hadn't thought about the fire paste though. That sounds like it might be a good addition.

I went to the local Fleet Farm yesterday, and they were out of Fire Paste. It's 6:00AM here and pretty cold this morning at 10F and I'm loading up on coffee and then heading into the woods with my daypack in an hour. I wanted to try the paste to prime my alcohol stove and to light some wet tinder (if I can even find any wet tinder).

The state weather forecasters are starting to rumble about drought this spring. They say the soil is the dryest in 30 years. If that keeps up, we will not be able to light campfires or even use stoves in the northwoods. Theres a lot of timber blow downs all over the state, and the huge Pagami Creek fire last fall has everyone spooked.

Very true, but 5 min in the armpit and they fire up just fine.

Micro size and ultra lightweight (within limits) do appeal to me as a climber and backpacker, but I agree with you about redundancy for making fire. The ability to make a fire, which implies at least some shelter, is critical to survival in the wilds under most conditions. If there are no serious medical issues, lighting a fire makes a huge difference - you will be OK.

The one thing I can see with the fire paste is that it comes in a pretty hefty tube and isn't easily divided down. Otherwise it would be an excellent assurance of fire.

Right again, Bryd! I can be so impatient!

What about one of those micro torches the dope fiends use? They're small and according to the catalog descriptions, very effective. Would'nt mind one of the lighter sized gizmos in my medical kit.

Could you store a smaller amount of fire paste in a section of plastic straw that is heat-crimped on each end, like some people do with petroleum jelly cotton?

Hand sanitizer? Lights pretty easily from a ferro rod, available in many different sizes, cheap, multipurpose. Not as immune to wind, though.