Would you attempt to walk to safety?

As I mentioned in a post Sunday night, this weekend we went on a hiking trip. We eventually ended up about 60 miles from the nearest town. Although we did not have any trouble and as always, were well equipped, however we did run into another couple who were truck camping. We spent about 10 minutes talking with them which during this time, I had a chance to have a critical look around their campsite and made some observations of their kit. Other than the kit listed below, the door to their truck was open and I did not see any other kit in there nor in the truck bed.

After we left, I thought of what would have happened if their truck broke down and they had to walk out based on the below scenario, options and the kit I seen that they had out in the open.

Let's assume for sake of this scenario, you do not have a PLB nor a SPOT nor did you tell anyone where you were going. Also, lets leave the politics of why someone would not carry such safety devices nor not leave trip/route details with families or friends. In a nutshell, this pretty much describes the quintessential Mr. and Mrs. Weekend Car Camper.

So Mr. and Mrs. Weekend Car Camper, your truck is broke down and as a non ETS forum member, you have a modest but not overwhelming car camping type of kit with you and your SO. (remember no PLB or SPOT)

Your route to safety is 60 miles away and there are 2 different options:

1) Fairly open semi-arid mountainous (up to around 4800') terrain that is not all that dissimilar to some areas of Eastern Washington State, Colorado, Idaho etc. The weather is around 85-90F daytime and lows of around 50F at night. The odd, cold spell is not uncommon and rain mixed with sleet can occur in July as we seen on Sunday morning. By lunch though, it had warmed up to 77F. This route to safety is along old logging roads and trails that may or may not be on some maps. Although there is plenty of creeks and rivers, this time of year with high winter runoff, the terrain and environment dictate that the water is heavy with sediment and filtering by various means is time and labor consuming not to mention that even with pre-filtering, your water filter will not last very long.

Option 2:
Hike out over a 6000' mountain pass along an old forestry access road. The terrain starts off much the same as the above but soon turns into cooler and higher elevation coastal mountain forest. With this type of terrain, there is much more abundant, cleaner water and the daytime temps are usually cooler. This route, while shorter is of more demanding terrain in terms of energy and calories burned. Again, unexpected cold weather is a possibility, if not much more then Option 1.

Kit available to take which we seen at the their campsite. Explain what you would to take and leave behind and the reason.

Mini BIC lighter - sitting on a table
Small pack of paper matches - sitting on a table
Old school kerosene hurricane lamp

Mixed food for 4-5 days - just a guess as from what the couple told us on Saturday, they would in the area until Tuesday morning. Lets assume though that when they set on foot, they had 3 days of food.

Various plastic plates and utensils
Large aluminum coffee percolator

Cheap C or D size flashlight. Keep in mind that daylight in this area currently comes very early and complete darkness is not until around 10:00 pm.

Large Coleman type cooler (around 30 quart)

Small Coleman type cooler - big enough to hold 10-12 cans of pop etc.

Collapsible water jug - about 4-5 gallon capacity

Several filled store purchased water bottles. 500 ML sized.

Tent looked to be about 9x7' Looks heavy, but has more then enough room for 2 people and a full fly to protect you both from the elements.

In the open to view, tent: 2 sleeping bags - appeared to be 3 season type but cheap and heavy department store quality

2 foam sleeping pads. Not the best type as they are prone to soak up water if they get exposed. Again, cheap, heavy department store quality.

1 Fleece blanket - Draped over the truck bed side, looked to be about a double size, definitely not queen sized

Various items of clothes such as extra jeans, shirt, sweater etc but no warm jacket visible for the cooler nights.

Both had on running shoes - no signs of any boots.

Small 13 inch hatchet - with no sheath sitting near a small amount of chopped firewood.
I folding knife - could not distinguish brand/model
1 fixed blade knife - On the male's belt, could not distinguish brand/model

Large scale off-road map book - No signs of gps or compass

Backpack or bag - No sign of either. All gear appeared to be transported in a couple of rubbermaid style containers.

I am sure there were a few more typical car camper items that were not immediate to my eyes that may be of some use that you would assume that the typical truck camper may have and would want to take so feel free to add to your hypothetical list.

Again, based on all this, explain if you were Mr. and Mrs. Weekend Car Camper what would take from the above from your walk out and how long would you expect it to take.

Lastly, I know the area very well as I have spent years around there and am very confident in my knowledge of the area, the terrain, environments etc. Based on this, I can give a qualified estimate of each route of about 60 miles if my SO and I were to walk out. Any guesses? I would expect that for Mr. and Mrs. weekend car camper this would be much longer.

The question really depends on whether you truly have the ability to actually walk 20+ miles per day and have the experience of walking over the terrain specified with a 20-30lb uncomfortable load. i.e. the rubber maid container can be converted into a basic back pack using the vehicle seat belt strapping.

The ability to navigate would be crucial. This scenario isn't really a question about kit (what you would take and leave behind) but about experience in suffering a little without giving up on the unplanned trek.

The scenario sounds pretty tough for even the folks from the US Army Mountain division. For others it would be a fun outing.

http://toc.hipcast.com/deluge/167d028d-85f3-c98d-73b5-ef1ca08588a0.mp3

The ability to navigate is not as crucial as it would seem. Remember these people drove in (small truck actually) and to me it would be prudent to walk out the way you came in via road in one direction or in the other direction over the pass along a forestry road that would be easier and safer then going cross country.

As for the scenario being tough. In reality, it is not a walk in the park but is doable (albeit slowly) by most people who are generally in fair to average shape.


The road (option #2) along the pass. The road in the other direction of option #1 is about the same condition and much better as it nears the town the road eventually leads to.

How well-travelled is the area? Option 3 is to stay with your vehicle, buckledown at basecamp, signal for help there and at strategically scouted spots, and hope someone comes along just like you did.

BTW - Looks like a gorgeous area!

[/quote]
I'll play...
Route 1, absolutely. If I'm really lost/screwed, I want as many factors in my favor as possible. #1, I should be more familiar with this route. #2, lack of elevation means easier hiking, and better temps should things go awry.

What to take:
Bic lighter, matches and lamp.

All the food we had.

All the water bottles we had, as well as the 5gal collapsible. Ideally, fill that at least half way (40 lbs is a big load of water!), preferably at night after I've stopped moving. Use it to top off the little bottles, as well as re-hydrate at night, and pre-hydrate in teh daytime. I'd leave this bag to one person, and carry the equipment on the second person.

The Tent poles, stakes and fly. If I was really in a bind, light is best. Potentially cut the floor from the tent so I'd have something to keep partially dry.

1 sleeping bag and the blanket. Again a compromise between warmth and weight, but if I was wiht my wife, we could open the sleeping bag, keep it or the fleece on bottom, and spoon for warmth. Plus save carrying 5 lbs.

Both knives - I have one, wife has one. Should be enough deadfall I wouldn't need the hatchet.

Relevant pages from map book.

Well, if my SO and I were out, we'd have used duffels instead of tupperware, but I digress. Typically we'd have at least one day pack and one hiking fanny pack... but if you didn't have those, I'd use the sweatshirts as bags. Tie off the sleeve ends, fill the sweatshirt. Tie the sleeves around my waist and figure a way to cinch the top closed and make some shoulder straps - salvage the seat belts most likely if I didn't have rope. Using the legs of the jeans would work too. My wife could do similar.

With the weight we'd be carrying, about 20lbs for her and maybe 30lbs for me, we'd be able to cover 20 miles a day over relatively graded roads. We're both military, in decent shape, she's done a few marathons and I've hiked the Sierra's as a kid and teenager. It would be a PITA but it would be do-able.

That being said, if something were to come up that stranded us (bad car,etc), chances are much higher that I'd leave when we realized we'd be stuck. Leave her with all the gear, I'd get going with that fleece blanket, some water bottles and a few power bars or something similar. Good chance that with a <10lbs load, I could be back in town in 48 hours or less, which leaves her with a full day of food extra to allow for the "oops" factor. Easy things like jogging on the downhill and walking on the uphill would allow me to make good time. The mild temps would be a blessing.

Now why would I let her stay, and me go? Even though she's done marathons and I haven't, I've got more experience in that sort of environment. She grew up in Wisconsin, me in southern Cali, but I did a LOT more camping as a kid. I feel more comfortable improving.

You don't mention what happens on Tuesday when they become overdue. If they assume they will be reported missing on Wednesday, then they should stay with the vehicle and tightly ration their food and supplies.

You also don't mention how well traveled the road is. Knowing this might sway someone to stay.

Based on the equipment they have, I think I could stay there almost indefinitely if there are fish or game around. But I'm not a Mr. and Mrs. Weekend Car Camper.

Back to the walk out... The low road is safer and warmer - that's the road they should take.

If they decide that staying with the car is hopeless, then the first thing is they need to stick together to walk out. They also need to leave a note about where they went. Third, they need to stick to the logging roads and not take any shortcuts. They should also figure on about 6 to 8 miles a day and ration their available food for a 10 day walk.

The items they should take... going down your list... they will need to build backpacks from sleeping bags. I say ditch the heavy tent but take the rain fly and cut the bottom of the tent out for a ground cloth/tarp. I would keep the hatchet and both knives. Ditch the coolers and dishes but take the water carrier - with only about 1 gallon or less, and bring as many of the small plastic water bottles they can full of water, and bring the percolator. Rip the one page that matters out of the map book and keep the rest of the book for tinder. Take extra clothes/layers to stay warm but ditch the fleece blanket and the foam pads. Of course, they need to take the matches, lighter, and flashlight. Overall, my idea is that they should be under 20 lbs of gear or less per person since they do not have boots.

They can't carry a 5 gallon water jug full of water. They should carry all of the small water bottles full of water - as many of them as they can carry up to about a gallon each, plus about one gallon in the big container.

They should also take some items from the car... a mirror, along with quite a bit of wire which could have multiple uses. A hub cap might become a bowl (I got that one from dual survival). What I would do is walk around the car very very slowly and meticulously go over it inch by inch and ask: What is this item good for, what are it's qualities, if I break it apart what are it's individual qualities... that exercise might yield surprises, like using the seatbelts for backpack straps. They might also find some good tinder items in the glove box. The tire iron might be handy for digging. One person could carry the hatchet and one carry the tire iron. They should also take some of the gasoline from the car and keep it in a water bottle. If they slow down and take their time going inch by inch over the car, it might yield a lot of goodies.

Another item from the car... Vinyl seatcovers could be cut out or vinyl backed carpet could be cut out to wrap the sleeping bag/backpacks to keep them dry.

They will need to create a first aid kit to take with them with one of the primary goals of preventing and treating blisters. Fresh socks and baby powder would be helpful. So would duct tape. Electrical tape from any wiring in the car could also become a blister bandage.

Once they've gathered supplies, they would split it all up into halves and put each half in a sleeping bag and then roll it up. Then roll all of that up in vinyl carpet for dryness, then tie on seatbelts... that makes up the two backpacks. Might need to make one of them lighter than the other for the lady.

A 10 day hike in those conditions... they would need to filter found water through a t-shirt and boil it. They would need to ration their 3 days of food over 10 days. They would need to leave signs of their progress as they move. They would need to stick to the logging roads. If they come across fish or game, they should stop and rest for at least a day and take in protein, then proceed. Otherwise, they should press on at least 6 miles per day.

That's about all I can think of for now. I think my main point to add to this discussion is that I think it would take them 10 days to walk out and they would need to realize this early on or they would become demoralized. Second to that would be my point that they should not carry more than 20 lbs. per person on their backs.

This is an interesting thread, as it makes you think about how to improvise when an emergency for which you are not fully prepared arises. My DW and I make several 'truck camping' trips per year into the Chippewa National Forest. Even though the landscape there is much different than the one described in this scenario, a similar event in my neck of the woods is something we plan and equip for, so we would never be in this sitation under-equipped.

Realistically, I also would not cannibalize my truck in the weather described, as I plan on surviving and the little bit of benefit I would get from ripping out the seat cushions/covers and wiring vs. the $3000 repair bill when we got home would make it a non-starter for me. I would take a mirror and seatbelts though.

I have limited (OK, none) experience in arid mountain camping, but here goes anyway:

Since the assumtion here is that staying put is not the best option, here is what we would do The road pictured is well-maintained and fairly well travelled as evidenced by the half dozen fresh tire tracks in the photo. We drove in on that road and we have a map, we would backtrack that road to civilization, camping at night along the side of the road and hoping to hook a ride along the way. The trip on foot would take us 5 days with good weather and a little luck.

Fire/signaling:

the lighter, matches, left side car mirror, hatchet, knives

Hydration:

T shirt section, 1/2 liter bottles, the 5 gal collapsible, and the coffee pot

Shelter:

Would carry tent depending on how heavy it was (I am a big brute in pretty good shape). If it was truly too heavy for me to carry a long way, would first opt to ditch the steel poles and stakes and carry the fabric. If that option is still not viable, I would dissect the tent and take the largest flat piece I could make, the rain fly, the ropes, and maybe the floor and fashion the screens into headnets. Would carry one sleeping bag (probably the lightest) and the blanket.

Clothing:

Would ditch extra jeans in favor of the heaviest shirts (one each)and socks. Would fashion hats from a pants leg if we didn't have them. Would cut cotton shirts onto bandanas for each of us.

Food:

Would evaluate the food. Carry the lightest most nutrient dense, and eat whatever was in the cooler, or whatever else we couldn't carry before we left.

You say you saw the truck door open? As in - discharging the battery thru the dome light??? They might be out there hiking even now! :-) (I am personally quite paranoid about that issue when solo jeep camping. And even more careful when I have company.)

Not sure why the scenario requires them to move.

It might be helpful to walk back out a ways (any intersections within sensible walking distance?) and put up some SOS banners or markings to encourage any ATV or dirt bike riders to come to the campsite to help. My Colo experience is that someone will likely be along on a weekend day. It's hard to get far enough away if travelling by road unless you're the last one in the forest before winter sets in.

Absolutely agree. Why would they have to hoof it back to town? If they are not equipped for hiking, and not experienced, they would do better to stay put. If they should happen to be proficient hikers, sixty miles would not be all that challenging, especially along a road network.

Waiting and signalling is not very exciting, and it doesn't make good TV, but it is more likely to get them out of the situation.

there seems to be a recurring thread in our scenarios..that of a long distance to travel, limited or marginal quality equipment, and those of us with limited wilderness skills..I really appreciate the responders of this forum that indicate their particular skill level....perhaps we need to look at a new genre (though we've talked about it before)that of a "get home bike"...we are talking about car campers so assuming passable roads.. a double, hitch mount bike carrier...two yard sale hybrid mountain bikes...add a heavy duty rack and extra water bottle carrier...rim kit, patch kit, and bike air pump ...a $400 investment for peace of mind seems pretty cheap, plus it would give you some transportation at your camp site...

I'm a car camper. With small children, it's the camping that we can do.

1) I always leave a trip plan with a trustworthy person, even when going to staffed campgrounds. When I return from a trip I close the trip plan out with my trustworthy person.

2) We always have cellphones with us.

3) We don't own a PLB or SEND, something we're hoping to fix when the InReach comes out.

4) If we can stay put and expect rescue, that's generally what we'd want to do.

5) If all of the above fail, we'd hoof it, sticking to the road that seemed most likely to have traffic on it.

My skill level- low

my take-

1 stay by/in car- If you can move it/push it so it is in sight of a road, do so. Mark the car to signal help
2 attempt to text for help (everybody's got cell phones)
3)fill large cooler with water from cleanest source- let sit overnight to let sediment drop- filter water off top few inches, or boil it. (use coffee peculator
4) work on signal fire. (worst case- use tires to make UGLY BLACK SMOKE
5) sit tight!- not short on water- go back to old 3 minutes air, 3 hours shelter, 3 days water, 3 weeks food....

If you are not found in 3+ weeks in this setup, you will be hurting- maybe hike out at week 2?

Nah, sit tight.

Obviously they can be found, as you found them. Start a big enough fire in an open cleared area and someone will be along to see what it is.

I spend a lot of time in various national forests etc. There is more observation by the various staff then one would suppose. Not overt, just good work on their part. If a vehicle stays in one place long enough, it will be noticed. Either by roving patrol or airborne.

My plan, even though I have good equipment and skills, is to stay with the vehicle. Do things to make it observable and wait it out.

Usually after the first 8 or 10 days, a ranger, warden or whatever just "happens" to wander by.

Nomad

The trouble with that is that you'll probably won't be able to... While you won't starve to death for several weeks, nobody said anything about being fit for a 60 mile hike at the various stages of starvation.

The Swedish military survival manual (which is at least 20 years old, I'd love to see this verified or falsified) makes a bold statement that a healthy young male needs 500 kcal of carbohydrates each day to be able to operate at a functional level. Less than that and all the negative effects of food deprivation will leave most people in a poor state to fight the survival battle of their lives (no resistance to cold, poor cognitive skills, fatigue and so on).

This figure is (probably) based on some of those "hell week" excercises that they put some cathegories of military personell through: Give them 500 kcal and they'll still able to think and work, give them less and they essentially aren't.

As I understand it, no carbohydrates what so ever means your muscles are canibalized to be converted to something your brain can eat. Some carbs (500 kcal?) and you'll be very hungry, but you will burn your own fat reserves and can essentially keep going untill they run out. (According to the Swedish manual, a healthy young male has about 2-4 weeks before that happens).

Then again, there are those that claim that such nuisances as unable to keep warm, unable to think, unable to do hard physical work are mere transitional - that you can get into fat burning (ketogenesis), you will be decent functional, albeit at a lower tempo. I doubt those making that claim has ever tried it... Neither have I, for that matter. I doubt "cleansing" rituals as fasting (i.e. not eating for religious reasons) or extreme low carb diets in controlled circumstances has all that much relevance for a true survival scenario. BTW, Cody Lundin seriously suggests that everyone should try fasting every once in a while to see how it affects you personally - there may be large individual differences.

Walk out, in this situation. You’re not lost. Leave an obvious note on the front seat of the car as to which way you’re going. Take the road that is likely to have the most traffic. If you run across someone who can help, they’re most likely to be on the road. If you wait with the car, someone MAY come, or may not. Don’t wait until you’re weak to leave; leave while you’re still in good shape. If someone comes to your camp on foot (and w/o a PLB), someone will still have to leave to get help. Why should it be someone else?

Leave behind everything that is heavy or bulky. Excess weight or bulk can throw off your balance. Leave the totes, the tent, the coolers, the collapsible water container, one of the sleeping bags and both foam pads.

TAKE:
Fire: BIC lighter, small pack of paper matches, some of the kerosene from the lantern if you’ve got a container. Take extra map pages for tinder. Divide them in half (at least) and put in plastic bags. If one gets lost or wet, you’ve still got the other.

Food: Whatever you’ve got, if you can carry it all; otherwise, balance the lightest with the most calories.

Dishes/utensils: depending on what kind of food you’re taking; at least take a few utensils. Take the percolator, leave the loose innards behind. Boiling water will kill most organic pathogens, and you’re not likely to have too many industrial pollutants in most mountainous areas unless it’s from old mining operations.

Flashlight, for comfort if nothing else.

Water: take the purchased water bottles. Find some cord or wire, make slip-loops to hold the necks, fasten them around your waist to carry. Take a few extra t-shirts to filter out the chunks from collected water. Drink a reasonable amount of water before you leave, if you've got extra. If you've got a gallon container, take it only as far as the contents last.

Shelter: Tent rain fly & fleece blanket, one sleeping bag if you can handle the extra bulk. Take extra sweaters, sweatshirts/pants, etc, if not (roll them up in the sleeping bag). If you have some larger garbage bags, I would take them for use as raincoats, packs or ground cloths.

Cutting: Hatchet, make a belt loop with cord or wire; take both knives, one each. If you've got a Leatherman (etc), take it.

Tear out relevant map pages.

Make packs out of sweatshirts. Tie the bottom closed, use arms for fastening, probably diagonally.

Running shoes are better than flipflops!

Sixty miles downhill is somewhat less effort than uphill, I would guess maybe four days. If it takes six to do it without exhausting yourselves (hypothermia danger) or injury, that’s okay, too. Don’t run and don’t jog. This is not the time to sprain your ankle. Pushing always seems to cause trouble, and trouble is one thing you don’t need.

Don’t go for ‘shortcuts’. They still haven’t found Al Chretien.

Sue

The question of how well traveled the area is that it really depends on where you are. There are literally hundreds of miles of old forestry and mining roads in this vast area that can see little or no traffic depending on the time of year.

The only reason we seen these people was due to us being well above them and catching a glimpse of sun reflecting off a truck window. Due to the semi-remoteness of the area, there is always a chance that there could be something wrong hence our decision to check. When we told the couple this, they were thankful that even though they were fine, that we took the time to check on them.

Lots of very good answers and ideas that I would not of thought of had I ever, in the very unlikely event found myself in this situation.

If I had to choose what route to take, it would be over the pass. 6000' feet is not all that much higher then option #1 and in my experience of the area, the overall benefits of the pass in terms of cooler day temps, natural resources available and the fact that the distance is shorter, probably would negate any advantages of option #1 in terms of energy and calories burned.

I estimate a minimum hike of 2 very long days either way given my knowledge of the area, the expected terrain and also based on my physical hiking conditioning which is the high side of very good but not quite excellent.

For people in fair to good shape, I would estimate at least double this time frame. 60 miles on foresty roads is not all that far and like anything, the distance is more of a mental obstacle rather then a physical obstacle...aside from getting a leg/foot injury or debilitating blisters etc.

Overcoming or not overcoming the mental obstacle usually seals their fate. You would probably be surprised at the percentage of the population who wouldn't even attempt the trek even if it was only a 60 mile multi day hike, they would give up there and then and sit it out hoping for rescue even if it meant slowly starving to death. The reality is that the soft and flabby modern Homo Urbanus have basically forgotten how to walk anything more than a mile or two.

The best thing about this scenario is:

1. Reminds me to leave a note as to here I'm going and when I'm returning.
2. Truck? Easy to pack a bit extra - extra food, water, clothes to allow for weather changes, tools, etc.
3. In 98% of cases, I'd wait it out by the broken truck.

Everything but staying put and signalling for help adds risks , and opportunities for decision-making in degraded mental and physical states for which you are not equipped; that will not end well. Being bored and perhaps embarressed while providing an unchallenging rescue.

Route#2 is mentioned to be shorter, but by how much? How well do I know the roads, and how well are the roads marked? Route 1 appears doable, but water is a major concern, with that heat (walking the road at night seems risky), you are going to burn through alot of it very quickly. I would guess (conservatively)progress of 12-18miles per day depending on how easily I took it and how much foraging I would have to do for water.

If it is just a vehicle breakdown then it's a simple no-go decision or at least not go very far, in my mind. The road may have infrequent travellers but as you pointed out, YOU met them on the trip so the chances of them meeting up with another vehicle are quite possible. They have food, shelter and means to keep themselves comfortable for at least a few days. Not a great reason to pick and go if you are not equipped or don't have the ability/knowledge to walk out safely. The environmental conditions are not severe and if they keep themselves dry, hypothermia is not likely. Wait it out, at least for a day, then re-evaluate your situation.

You mentioned they had typical car camping equipment -- without a pack or the knowledge to fashion a reasonable pack, the basic ability to take their supplies with them is pretty limited. Which means they are much more likely to try to walk out with very little supplies and with the hope that they meet up with someone along the way.

2ndly, if it is more than a vehicle breakdown (a medical emergency as well or perhaps a nearby forest fire, etc) then that might prompt the campers to hike it out sooner rather than hunker down. But since you didn't supply that info in your scenario, Option A is still the best bet.

That's my opinion -- however, you never can tell with some people who might over stress and not think rationally about their situation. There will be some overconfident skill lacking people who will attempt to hike out.

We get the same thing here in Saskatchewan. The vehicle breaks down but lets say its in the middle of winter with a blizzard on the way and the farm house you can see is only 1.5 miles away. Smart money says stay and wait out the storm but idiots will pack up and try to hike that short distance unprepared. People have and will die in a significant percentage of those who choose Option B.