Knife Rights Sues New York City

June 9, 2011: Knife Rights has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit to stop New York City from arresting law-abiding citizens carrying common pocket knives.

The lawsuit challenges New York State law on "gravity knives" and switchblades, and New York City District Attorney Cyrus Vance's attempt to mischaracterize the most widely-owned pocket knives in America as contraband. The case seeks a judicial determination that the law is unconstitutionally vague as applied to these ordinary pocket knives.

"District Attorney Vance is trying to advance his political career by exploiting a vague state law to demonize common pocket knives," said Knife Rights Chairman Doug Ritter. "In the process, hundreds of law abiding knife owners are being arrested and Vance has extracted nearly $2 million from retailers to avoid prosecution on bogus charges. This lawsuit intends to put a stop to Vance's abusive and unconscionable civil rights violations."

"One-hand opening pocket knives are legal tools, used and carried every day by millions of law-abiding citizens for work, recreation and self-defense," said Ritter. "Shame on D.A. Vance for demonizing common tools and turning honest citizens into criminals for purely political ends."

If you are a retailer or individual who has been targeted for the sale or possession of so-called illegal knives (one-hand opening and assisted opening knives inappropriately claimed to be gravity knives or switchblades), we urge you to immediately contact Knife Rights at: email nycity@KnifeRights.org or call toll-free: 1-866-889-6268.

Joining Knife Rights as plaintiffs are two private citizens, John Copeland, an internationally acclaimed artist, and Pedro Perez, an artist and fine art dealer, both New York City residents. The defendants are New York County District Attorney Cyrus Vance, Jr., the New York State Attorney General, and the City of New York. Knife Rights is represented by attorney David Jensen. The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York.

Click here to download the Federal Complaint as filed.

Knife Rights is supported in this lawsuit by the Knife Rights Foundation Sharper Future Legal Fund™ whose major donors include at Platinum level: Benchmade Knife Co., Blue Ridge Knives, Buck Knives, Columbia River Knife & Tool, Taylor Brands and United Cutlery; Silver level: KnifeWorks.com and Wenger NA; Titanium level: Smokey Mountain Knife Works; Bronze level: Ethan Becker and KA-BAR Knives. Please support those who support your knife rights.

ABOUT KNIFE RIGHTS AND THE KNIFE RIGHTS FOUNDATION

Knife Rights is America's grassroots knife owners organization and supports legislative initiatives to eliminate irrational restrictions on one of man's oldest and most common tools, decriminalize knife possession and advance the civil rights of America's knife owners.

The Knife Rights Foundation works to educate, inform and protect knife owners, pursuing litigation in support of knife owners' civil rights when necessary.

Both Knife Rights and the Knife Rights Foundation (www.KnifeRights.org) are dedicated to a Sharper Future for all Americans.

We need your help to fight DA Vance. Donate today to support Knife Rights Sharper Future™ Legal Fund.


Join Knife Rights and help us fight for you. Only a few days left for you to win big if you join or renew now.

(Please note that I am traveling to BLADE Show and may not be able to quickly respond to any replies to this post.)

[quote=Doug_Ritter]June 9, 2011: Knife Rights has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit to stop New York City from arresting law-abiding citizens carrying common pocket knives.

Knife Rights is supported in this lawsuit by the Knife Rights Foundation Sharper Future Legal Fund™ whose major donors include at Platinum level: Benchmade Knife Co., Blue Ridge Knives, Buck Knives, Columbia River Knife & Tool, Taylor Brands and United Cutlery; Silver level: KnifeWorks.com and Wenger NA; Titanium level: Smokey Mountain Knife Works; Bronze level: Ethan Becker and KA-BAR Knives. Please support those who support your knife rights.


Thank you and the knifemakers for fighting for our rights. I have just decided to make a purchase of a Ka-Bar Becker BK-7 to show support and, selfishly, to get a well-made trail knife. If any of you are on the fence about getting another knife, here's your excuse.

This is the reason it took a while for Doug to respond to the "Fairy Tale" thread. Preparing to sue the city of New York requires a whole lot of time and effort. Please keep that in mind the next time you feel like Doug "needs to do something". He's already doing far more than y'all know.

-Blast

As a former NYC resident, who now lives just outside of the city and travels there for business and pleasure on a regular basis, I say:

Doug, thank you.

I renewed my membership a few weeks ago, and I'm glad I did.

I'm posting news of the lawsuit on local boards I participate in, in the hopes of getting more members and support for knife rights.

I visit family in NYC at least annually; this affects me personally. I'm joining Knife Rights today. Thank you Doug!

People are running and supporting.
Get your name on a list that is handed over to authorities.

Anyway, knife control is a good thing.
One does not need a pocket knife that can be opend with ONE hand.

Reading the first post makes me wonder how I was able to live so long without. I must have done something wrong, using a two-hand-opening pocket knife.

Only carry one handed openers and when I see things like what happened at NYC I just cringe. There are many times where you are holding something with one hand and need to be able to operate a knife with the other.

As for the companies that support this,, you have my undying loyalty!!!


Thank you very much for doing the right thing..

It will be very interesting to see the outcome of this legal challenge and to see if the extortion of local businesses selling perfecly legal knifes to private individuals is indeed recognised as extortion by a higher authority than Mr Vance Jr. There isn't much legal headroom above this fellow and principles of democratic values may need to be invoked as happened recently here in Scotland, when the Labour Party was soundly defeated whose, political agenda's included imprisoning anyone with a knife in a public place for a minimum of 5 years no questions asked. Good luck with the Federal Complaint, but they way things are proceeding in the US, you'll probably need it.

Seriously? You truly think that there's never been/never will be any person in a situation where they'll be limited to one hand when opening a knife?

Wow. Just...wow.

Actually, after going back and reading your other posts it seems you really have no need for any of the information on this forum. Tell me sir, are you just here to troll?

*unsnap*

-Blast

Not to mention people with one arm that is incapaciated or simply not there. My right arm was immobilzed for over 3 months and my one-handed opener came in handy several times, including on the canoe trip I was on in my current profile picture.

Are you serious? There have been many times I've only had one hand to operate my knife I needed. Also, you must intend for a handicapped person with only one hand to suck up more bad luck. Knife laws like NYC's only restrict law abiding citizens.

I say he's trolling. He gets a thrill each time you guys respond.

Partly. I went through his previous posts and this kind of fits his pattern. He lives out in rural Alaska or Canada and has very little sympathy, and no empathy, for those of us who live and work in the asphalt rabbit warrens of the city.

Life is very different here. Most of us don’t have to worry about getting our homes washed off their foundations, but have to shred our junk mail to keep the meth addicts from trying to steal out identities.

Keep up the good work!

I am mostly disappointed by those manufacturers who are NOT involved. Some pretty high-profile makers. Whose one-handed-opening stuff I own. Especially one biggie. Yeah, you know *exactly* who I'm not thinking of... I'm pretty sure this aspect has been discussed before, but in my case I think it will affect any future knife purchases I make. Clearly they don't seem to really believe (when/where it counts) major aspects of their own marketing/promotion.

OHO isn't essential, but it is damn handy - I've needed it a couple of times and use it all the time.

more importantly this isn't about the law, - it is about how it is applied. If there are laws passed, as citizens we are duty bound to comply with them, and if we want to change them lobby our representatives. it may be frustrating but that is how the system works.

What I believe DR is challenging is the authorities misrepresnting those laws to suit their own agenda - and I applaud his efforts on this.

This sounds like sarcasm to me.

Jeanette Isabelle

In Florida, a concealed carry permit applies to edged weapons.

Sadly, I can kind of relate to this.

Fortunately, most laws have exemptions to one-handed openers with FD/EMS/LE and military. Fortunately I've been involved in one or another since '96, and I've never had a cop once glance at a knife I've had.

That being said, kudos to DR and Knife Rights. Even NYC makes me nervous with their rampant anti-weapon paranoia.

I wonder if DC's recent strike-down on firearm bans is going to help thier case?

Florida CCW doesn't apply to Crowds. So if your in a crowd or a sporting event or a gathering the CCW doesn't apply.. I will double check this and edit my posting.

790.06 12

(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Tyber,

As you can see from 7point82's post the CCW is not removed by a "crowd", they are valid anywhere but those specific exceptions. And as always a private property owner can limit them. Interestingly, most places that post, only post a no firearms sign, not a no weapons sign. But then they probably don't know what the law says either.

Izzy,

As you said, the same problem does exist here as in New York, a vague law and officers overstepping their authority. There is no definition of an "ordinary pocket knife" in Florida law. There is also no authority to have a "no knife zone" with limited exception, and on private property.

Doug,

Thanks for your efforts, It is time to get off my duff and join, thank you also for making it possible.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Good job Doug, hope the lawsuit processes expediently and you get it turned around.

I work in NYC and travel the 5 boroughs to all my facilities I carry a small 3" Spyderco folder plus a 1.25" swiss utilty on my keys wherever I go.

I been stopped at several government buildings where the securty guards identified these as "deadly weapons" (yes even the 1" swiss utility . At least I was able to check 'em and enter the buildings to take care of business.

Jerry poses and interesting point. What is "an ordinary pocket knife?"

Years ago (and perhaps to some extent today) it brought to mind a knife something like a case stockman or similar type/sized knife.

Nowadays, a one hand opener often comes to mind.

Is ordinary dependant on geography? Could it be dependant on ones job? I am chained to an office chair every day, so I carry an SAK. My friend (and DS's Cubmaster) works outdoors with heavy equipment and such and carries a large one hand opener. Many people who work around electronics carry Multi-tools.

Point is, ordinary is very much a relative thing. But relative to what else?

There's a reason they made such laws not so precise to begin with, to give cops some wiggle room to let go average joe who's just going about his day, and nab the gangbanger wannabes.

Of course always leave it to the politicians and lawyers to screws it up.

[new post below]

I guess if you can't differentiate between someone who "looks like", and someone who "is", you have bigger problem to deal with.

...and that statement is even more problematic then the law. Everybody is OK with Draconian laws as long as they don't apply to them, but that comes back to haunt.

As Exhibit "A", I give you "may issue" gun permits in California. These laws were originally passed by lawmakers who wanted to give sheriffs some wiggle room to allow permits for average Joe but deny permits for gangbanger wannabes. Today, it turns out the "may issue" law basically means nobody gets a gun permit in California, not even wealthy white people in Orange County. Now, they're crying foul.

Anyway, how many gangbangers do you think are opting not to carry because of this law?

That's a ridiculous argument. First it's not draconian, it didn't say no one can do it. Even you admit it's created with good intention. If used as intended it would be effective. Then you conveniently cut off the 2nd part of my post, which clearly state these law are open to abuse, and have been abused beyond their original intention.

That's not the point now is it. Like I said, if used as intended, a 100% clear law would either require cops to arrest guy with a knife to eat lunch and open letters with, or let go known gangbangers who'll probably use it on someone else. Whereas a little vagueness would allow the former to be let go and latter to be arrested.

Of course that's what would happen ideally, and we don't live in an ideal world.

the original intent has no bearing on the level of corruption currently cascading through the loophole it creates.

guys, could you maybe use the Edit button instead of making a new post for every point? this isn't a blog comments section, and it's making it hard to respond.

I think the term you're looking for is "unconstitutionally vague." Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_for_vagueness.

Actually, I should start this post by offering Doug an apology.

The Criminal code of Canada outlines what is deemed to be a prohibited weapon (Section 84. (1)(a)) and then more or less falls off the map. It includes switchblades, gravity or balisong, ballistic knives and any other device that is not firearm and prescribed to be a prohibited weapon????

I had originally thought the advantage to having an obscure knife law was owing to Canada being such a regionalized country. What is applicable in a large urban centre is completely unenforceable in a rural setting.

However, having read through the various posts and the Knife Rights website, it leaves far too much open to interpretation and only encourages confusion when there should be clarity. In NYC, it seems the district attorney is exploiting the vagaries of the state law to push through his own agenda. Although unfortunate, it is not a complete surprise.

In Ontario, there is a supposed rule of thumb stating you are entitled to carry a knife on your person as long as the blade does not exceed 3" in length. This is complete fiction.

I have owned and carried Spyderco Delica 4 and more recently a Ritter RSK MK1 and in discussion with some LEO(s) that I know - they have stated the following:

Technically, any knife I carry on person could be deemed a weapon. Regardless of how it is being used or the circumstance I find myself to be in. The only advice they could offer is to ensure that it is always visible (i.e. on my belt) otherwise it would be deemed concealed. Everything else is subject to interpretation.

One of the frustrating aspects is the myriad of questions some people have. Why do you need it? What are you going to use it for?

Well, I use it every day to open boxes, remove staples, sharpen pencils, open access panels painted over about 5 times, strip insulation, shave shingles, cut carpeting, etc., etc.

So again Doug, my apologies and I wish the foundation had a branch office available north of the 49th parallel.

Canadian law seems really grey and, frankly, a bit confusing. I'd love to find a set of definitive guidelines regarding what's okay and what's not, but I doubt such a beast exists.

Outside of those items specifically prohibited, my understanding is that anything becomes a weapon based on intention (and of course use). So if the police ask what your knife is for and you say self defence, its a weapon regardless of its physical attributes. It is legal to carry tools, not weapons.

Concealment is a bit confusing; concealment would only seem to be a crime if it was found that your knife was a weapon. Therefore, as a general rule, most recommendations I've seen are to not conceal your knife just in case (e.g. have the pocket-clip showing).

That said, my hometown has passed a bylaw that says a knife cannot be visible in a public place which seems to be a bit of a catch 22. That said, I'd lean more towards ensuring I was completely above board criminally rather than worrying too much about Bylaw.

as far as i'm concerned, unless you're in prison the legal classification of "weapon" shouldn't exist at all. assault and murder are illegal anyway, why should using an inanimate object in the process affect how bad it is, or prevent others from freely using said items for mundane tasks? there's been at least one broken bottle used in every Hollywood barfight(and a few real-life ones), but as far as i'm aware no one's tried to ban glass bottles yet.

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2009/8/24/1000357/glass-bottles-banned-from-psu

http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/29095/glass-bottles-banned-in-safety-move

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Bars-face-glass-ban-in.2739133.jp

Don't forget that where Great Britain used to be, you can't legally carry a Leatherman multitool with a locking blade without "good reason".

I like the way Arizona, Vermont, and Alaska take care of carry issues.

Just to illustrate the Canadian law regarding weapons of the non-prohibited sort, I noticed this article on the CBC today. The man was originally charged with assault with a weapon for hitting a fleeing robber with the blunt side of a hatchet.

I'm guessing anything could be considered a weapon if the Crown decides the individual was intending to use it as such at the time.

Just read the start of this thread.
Good for you Doug !!!

Pete #2

With a few exceptions (brass knuckles, explosive devices, spring-loaded stilettos, etc) thats how the law is in my state; A knife is not automatically a weapon. A knife (or frozen turkey leg) is legally a weapon if you use it as a weapon. There might be some municipal ordinances that I'm unaware of though.

I think it's great that Knife Rights is standing up for common sense.

We need to outlaw criminals and not the everyday items that they might use. Common sense dictates that the criminals will completely ignore knife laws just like they ignore other laws. Thats why we call them criminals.

that's good; i like that. if you use it as a weapon then it's a weapon, but only in that case; not across the board. in a perfect world you could walk down the street with a bit of lead pipe in one hand, a Gil Hibben monstrosity in the other, and a cricket bat strapped to your back, but unless you do someone harm with it(or threaten such) it's just a really bad fashion accessory.

Chaos, you jarred my failing memory about an article I read in tactical knives (no affiliations, standard disclaimer) about Doctors in the UK trying to ban long pointed kitchen knives. I couldn't find the tactical knives article that mentioned it, but I did find this article.