What's Wrong with FEMA's List

Ken has written up a thought provoking article on what's wrong with FEMA's preparedness kit list. Take a look and let the discussion begin:

http://www.onlyknives.com/fema-survival-kit-gone-wrong

I'll go along with the criticism, since the writer seems to admit that list making is Hard, or Tricky Business as he sees it. FEMA faces a host of competing challenges, so anything they produce is a compromise. I do wonder about the 6 lists angle, and would agree, its better to work from an all hazards perspective and maintain a common inventory of emergency supplies in one's kit.

I've had this discussion with sellers of basic emergency kits - why include a flashlight with an incadescent bulb? Why include a battery-operated incadescent bulb flashlight at all? Odds are if you don't use it, the batteries will drain, the bulb may break from simple jiggling in the kit, and the light won't work when you really need it. The answer so far has been cost - incadescent bulbs and battery driven lights are cheap. And if they provide 1 hour of light 50% of the time they're pulled from the kit after a year or more, that's one more hour than a non-prepared person would have. You or I find that minimal and unacceptable, we probably have solar recharged Crees in our kits (or Crees with a good supply of recharegable batteries) - but the battery operated incadescent is a baseline for preparedness. One that I think should be changed, but if you have to factor in a $9-15 flashlight into a $49.95 kit bill of materials, that changes the economics of who will buy the kits and ultimately begin to prepare themselves.

I think the Make a List issue is akin to the same issues that befall outdoor preparedness people, constructing lists of Ten Essentials. Times change, what's essential for one generation is deemed less essential for another - and when a whiz bang technology (usually battery powered) comes along, a contingent emerges to put it on the list. That debate of course is limited by the premise - Ten Essentials. Why Ten? Why not 12, or 14, or 22 as I've seen on at least one Essentials List. How many can even name the 10 Essentials? Is your list the same as taught to today's Boy Scouts, or the Mountaineers? How many can actually name the Ten Commandments for that matter - apart from those who had their catechisms drilled into their backsides as youngsters. My point is we are no more generally aware of what the Essentials are than we are the Commandments for or against Sin, unless someone took an especial interest in our learning them (or their version of them). But I digress -

Have a plan, make a kit - simple instructions. If you have even 20% of the population follow those instructions, you see a tremendous benefit in the event of a disaster, which saves lives and billions of dollars. If you can push up that percentage higher still, more lives and more billions saved - even in the face of the most dire disasters, as we see in Japan. Either way, the actual number of Americans who currently prepare beyond the have a plan, make a kit stage is vanishingly small. You can't show me a more prepared nation than Japan, and still they suffer. Were the US to experience the same disaster, I fear we would suffer more still for our general lack of preparation. But maybe the largest source of casualties and loss will come not from the failure to be prepared (by having a kit, or really comprehensive kits that can sustain your family for a week or more), but from basic decisions on where we live, whether our houses are earth-quake retrofitted, whether we keep heavy or fragile things over our bed steds, whether we are prepared to shut off the gas at the risk of fire, etc. Having at least a malformed FEMA kit - or one of them - might make the difference of life or death in the first hour after a disaster, when turning off one's gas can save your home and your neighbor's too.

The article makes some well reasoned criticisms of the very generic, extremely basic FEMA lists which above all must not arouse (political) controversy. An important point, which cannot be overemphasized, is that your survival supplies and preparations ideally should be tailor made to your circumstances and your capabilities.

It is interesting, in view of recent large scale disasters, how little emphasis there is on community and neighborhood preparation. Perhaps it is the American ethos of rugged individualism. We are all Gary Cooper striding down an empty Main Street, solving problems with decisive individual action. In reality, it may well be your neighbors that will help dig you out from the wreckage.

While the FEMA lists have definite, and well identified deficiencies, they are far better than nothing, which is what most of our fair citizenry possesses. If we could only get q fair fraction of the populace up to the FEMA level, we could set higher, and more useful, standards.

He's got a point about FEMA having too many lists, all in different formats. However, the lists do specify "at least a three-day supply of non-perishable food". Some folks will always go with the minimum; OTOH, my truck kit alone will go four days as it sits right now in the garage.

That said, I mostly agree with what he's saying, real tents vs tube tents, sanitation, camping gear and appropriate tools. That said, Ken should really avoid making knife recommendations. He recommends the Gerber AR 3.0 and Bear Grylls Survival Knife? I think there are many better options even in the Gerber line -- LMF II ASEK Survival Knife

The FEMA lists are good for getting folks thinking, but the lists themselves fall short.

Too many people are living with their heads in the sand with no sense of personal responsibility.

"If I'm not a camper and I expect nothing bad to happen. If anything ever really does happen, the govn't has to take care of me. Why would I buy extra stuff, especially the best of the best, to sit and collect dust?"

The FEMA lists aren't for us. I did start there though. The FEMA lists, like Red Cross, Get Prepared Canada, and most store-bought survival kits, provide a good basic starting point for preparedness. They aren't the be all and end all, but are better than nothing. Even though we ETSers have fun making it that way, preparedness doesn't have to be rocket science. If FEMA makes it too complicated, or if they are viewed as too expensive, the general population won't buy-in. If FEMA could somehow simplfy, and consolidate their lists, more people might buy-into the basics.

To my mind, the other crucial thing that's missing is the next step - an acknowledgment that even though their goal is to get to people within three days, they won't always be able to do that and every citizen needs to be prepared for that. Too many people seem to expect FEMA, the RED CROSS, somebody or anybody to do everything for everyone during an emergency. I'm not sure the FEMA site, Get Prepared Canada or the Red Cross, go far enough to dispell that thinking.

EDIT: Here's our Canadian equivalent: http://www.getprepared.gc.ca/index-eng.aspx

I think one of the major things that prevents them from listing certain things is to cover their own butts. They also seem to be relying on majorly outdated things with lack of care to update.

I would hazard to guess the vast majority of people have nothing to help them in a crisis. They wait on the government to provide for them, not unlike everday life. They will find countless excuses for not doing "the right thing" and then blame everyone else when something happens to them. Forget the brands the guy mentioned. Think of the concept in total. If some people red the article, go see the list, make a kit, so much the better.

But, I would be willing to bet a shiny nickle that unlike the people on this forum, the vast unwashed have about nothing assembled for an emergency.

"I would hazard to guess the vast majority of people have nothing to help them in a crisis."

Our government has been working toward producing a non-thinking, non-responsible, help-me-help-me population for many years.

Well, now they've got it, they've apparently changed what passes for their minds. The bozos haven't figured out yet that you just can't have it both ways, and you're not going to change them overnight.

Sue

Nobody should know anything above punching keys into Microsoft Office, putting things on shelves or banging out numbers on cash registers <3

Many people believe FEMA's lists are not really ready for prime time:

http://www.fas.org/reallyready/analysis.html

has a lengthy analysis of the many faults. Shrug - everybody has their opinion, and I think it's helpful to have a number of different views on the topic of survival. With some thought, we can pick the items that are appropriate in our personal situations and not end up with a generic kit with snake bite kits and down sleeping bags when we don't live in areas with poisonous snakes and winter weather.

From my point of view, everyone who recommends a survival kit is going to get it wrong for me, since I don't have the problems and needs that the recommender has and visualizes everyone else to have.

My response to that question is usually "where to start". While he covers the high points of what is wrong and how to fix them, I'm afraid that the only people listening are the people who look at those lists and shudder.

However, in the interet of giving a balanced view, the 72 hour recommendation while obsolete and optimistic isn't a horrible one. From 72 hours to 120 or more, so long as you have appropriate clothing and have been able to salvage it, and a shelter, the only difference really starts to be how much water and food to stash.

At least you have a list or six, over here there is nothing to speak off as a one stop shop for preparedness information. I believe that the Federal Emergency Management Agency is part of the Dept of Homeland Security, each with individual budgets of $5.8 billion (2008) and $55.1 billion (2010) respectively. We have a single individual called Clive based at a local police station who organises the Tayside Strategic Co-ordinating Group.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/ready-scotland/Area/Tayside

Yes but putting numbers on something so complicated makes people complacent and lacking in the end. I never go by numbers like Hours or essential count since I understand how to do away with single use Throw away items and prepare for the indefinite length of time. Storing food and water is a major difficult thing so I personally store what I can afford and store without going insane with stuffing cans of food into every single nook and cranny of my house doing away with room to live. Ive watched a video of a women who prides herself on long term storage and stuffs food under her kids beds in their closets in and under all the furniture....After awhile I wonder how much of her kids lives will be taken up cuz mommy wants to stuff a can of beats into your teddy and toy trucks..

I agree with the comments made. With that said, anyone with some of the items on anyone of the lists would be better off than not at all. There also could be the possibility that it just might get someone to start thinking , "What if?", dig into the subject a little deeper and discover that the lists are a good starting point. But not the end-all, beat-all solution to a problem.

Just my $0.02 worth.

JT Hats of Only Knives makes hay over the FEMA recommendations but the FEMA list pretty well covers the bases. The FEMA lists are also clearly intended as an entry point to preparedness, not the final word.

Many of the issues raised are mere quibbles. He eschews bottled water because it may not be enough and insists that filtration and/or chemical treatment are required. Does he not know that chemicals and filters are not everlasting; that they also have limitations. The greater amount provided is a difference of degree, not kind. Which pretty well characterizes his objection.

I also wonder how much of this is youthful enthusiasm for 'buying the best'; which is invariably estimated on a combination of cost, and unique capability in improbable conditions.

He seems naive to the hyperbole of advertising. Breathlessly intoning that "The Ka-Bar Tac Tool urban survival knife was designed for SWAT teams breaking into barricaded rooms, but works just as well for getting out of one". Which is fine enough but just because something is designed with SWAT teams in mind it doesn't mean SWAT teams will actually use the product. SWAT teams I have evidence on use a good number of bartering rams and haligan tools, sometimes a crowbar and/or sledge hammer. If any SWAT team commonly uses the Ka-Bar Tac Tool as their main entry tool I have missed it.

Might it work? Yes. Is it better than nothing? Yes. But a $16 pry bar would be better still.

His advocacy of the AMPCO Fireman's Axe is an oddity. With some familiarity with local fireman's equipment I can say that no local engine company commonly uses such axes. They have axes in good number but none of the spark-proof variety. Theirs are the much more common steel headed variety. The only fire units which might routinely carry such a singular tool locally would be the hazardous materials response unit. The reason they are not more common has to do with their cost. Whereas a steel-headed one goes for about $100 the spark-proof variety goes for somewhere between twice or three times that. Durability and edge holding is also an issue.

One wonders what exactly lay in JT Hats stockpile of preparedness supplies. Is it all gold plated and overpriced with its suitability determined by advertising copy. Or is he just perusing online catalogs for items that catch his eye and fancy to fill a notional reserve to serve during a hypothetical situation?

Don't lose sight of the fact that the original commenter is in the business of selling survival items. He has an axe to grind, so to speak. Naturally, he recommends pricey stuff - all too human, I'm afraid.

Good for him for telling it like it is with regard to the FEMA list(s) and reality. The 3 day food and water supply recommendations are a joke even for just fairly common winter storms. While all his specific recommendations might not be what I’d buy--I applaud him--- for hopefully getting people to think a little. And if people aren’t going to either take the time to research or actually use a tool or item frequently his recommendations are at least better than FEMA's. In my opinion, anything to get people to prepare more than most do.

One thing for sure,The psychology is in order as he managed to get our attention,As broke as this side of the world is presently,We are darned lucky to even have a FEMA!I would bet,All of us here & anyone friendly to us,are Leaps&Bounds ahead of ANY, FEMA generated list,We can all Thank Doug Ritter for that!

The kit at Ready.gov seems to be the one FEMA advertises most to the general populace. I've seen a multitude of tv ads and heard radio ads directing people to that website.

With that in mind, I don't think that particular list is too bad. It's obvious it's made to be a starting point with general recommendations (vs. you have to buy these exact items). It even says such things as, "at least three days food and water."

I can see where it's just about impossible to make a list that serves everyone in the United States equally well. Differences in financial situations, family situations, and the types of expected emergencies pretty much dictate what one will have available to them. (which might explain why they have multiple lists for more specific situations)

It's also worth keeping in mind that FEMA's recommendations obviously aren't for 'the end of the world as we know it" type events. It pretty much assumes that events will be localized with first responders able to make it into the area and help get people to relative safety (i.e. sit tight and wait until help arrives).

I know for me (and many other here), that just wouldn't fit with our typical modus operandi. Instead, we would likely be out helping our neighbors, extended family, whoever; and being the first responders. Therefore, it's obvious that truly preparedness minded folks like us would need to be better equipped than the average individual.

Essentially, someone who is used to the preparedness concept is going to look at the list differently than someone who has never once thought about being prepared for an emergency. For a preparedness minded individual, it might not meet our bare minimum. For an average person, it's going to be better than nothing.

When you are trying to appeal to the latter, you're going to try and stick to what they already have available as much as possible. That way, it doesn't become a huge financial and time commitment to put a kit together. Better they throw some items in a box now because they're available, than to keep putting it off until something finally happens.

For us, it's strange to think that...some people either simply don't care or don't want to think about it. However, these are the people FEMA is really trying to reach. They don't want to make it so complicated and expensive that it will drive these people away.

It really is a logistical nightmare trying to put a list together for an entire country, especially if you want the average person to actually consider following it. While I don't think the Ready.gov list is perfect, it definitely offers a good place to start for most people.

Gentlemen,
One point that the membership might like to consider:
When your formulating these list's is it not better to consider what might be commonly obtained rather than best choice. As in you may not have access to MRE's or L.E.D lights or butane lighters.

I totally agree Leigh. I'm not the only ETSer who bangs my head against walls trying to get my loved ones to buy into basic preparedness. My best friend disassembled the kit I made her last year after a little tornado ripped through her town and scared her into her storm cellar. My mom was put out to have to find a place to store the kits I built her for her house and car. My cousin is blissfully ignorant that she lives in a tsunsmi zone, and couldn't be bothered to check the news a few weeks ago, even after several of us alerted her.

Now imagine being responsible for an entire country. No easy feat. KISS is crucial.

I have a small family and no kids, my 94 year old Mother lives with me and she’s pretty good about carrying a flashlight. Her cell phone does stay in her purse but can’t yet get it in a pocket. And no luck at all with whistles. However, she’s great with helping with dating, rotating and making great list for food. And even helps with water rotation.

The only kits I’ve made for friends was a little pocket kit for canines this last Christmas. And I think at least some of those are being carried. They all went to people who would be considered pretty serious dog folks who actually do lots of activities with their dogs. Some of those would probably carry a dog kit before a kit for themselves.

When I review lists from any source including political sources, the first thing I concentrate on is - "What is blatantly missing for MY situation?".

The key word is MISSING. FEMA is a very political organization reporting to a very political government. I am surprised that they haven’t evolved to something like FOOD, WATER, CLOTHING AND A BIBLE!

In actuality, when FEMA shows up, there is a strong display of a whole class of survival items that FEMA NEVER mentions – SECURITY. They don’t recommend you stock security items, but they personally would never enter into a disaster area without them

Interestingly enough, not one list or person commenting on these lists mentions the absence of firearms. You must classify yourself as – SHEEP, WOLVES or SHEEPDOGS when you choose a personal list.

A good read – “On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
http://www.mwkworks.com/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

Ponder, I'd suggest that recommending someone who doesn't already have and know how to use a gun safely, get one for emergencies, would be dangerous and do more harm than good.

Guns are more than gear. They require special training and a specific mindset. I'm not against them, but some of us aren't that far over in the preparedness spectrum that firearms are viewed as a neccessity. Just like the bible example, having guns, whether for hunting or protection, is a person choice, but unlike a bible, using a gun should never be a last minute decision.

EDIT: These lists are made for people who are just getting started in preparedness. They need to be told to store extra water and batteries, and many are hesitant to do even that. Imagine their reaction if the list said "get a gun and learn how to use it." Now imagine the nightmare if some idiot actually did get one and tried to shoot for the first time ever while under the stress of a disaster.

Concur. I have "a few" firearms in my list. None in my truck kit, but this is CA (not Canada). That said, I would not recommend folks who aren't familiar with firearms to go out and buy one just in case. It will still be in the case years from now and that 50 rounds box of target ammo will still be complete.

I do not think lists, in their inherent nature, are enough - even if they are what would be called complete. Without context with which to understand why each thing is on a list, you are left without a way to confidently substitute, to upgrade, to improvise when something on the list runs out or becomes non-functional, or to chose which things should be first to get, or first to do without if resouces do not allow everything.

I agree also. Security / firearms are things I would not put on a list like FEMA's. It is hard enough getting people to prepare without touching on such an unfortunately "sensitive" topic.

I also think advocating having a security solution in a preparedness list to those that lead their daily lives without such consideration is somewhere between a waste of time and negligence. The last thing I want in my neighborhood is someone who is scared or hurt and trying to figure out how to use this thing in his kit that he maybe played with for a week or two before stashing it away. I can just hear the accidental discharge now.

On the other hand, those who have security solutions as part of their daily life / routine probably don't need to be told to include that in the planning.

FEMA has a tough job here - get people started without overwhelming them. Better if everyone has a little bit and starts thinking about what they need then scare them off with an "impossible" list.

- Eric

Skills, knowledge and ability are more significant that mere possession of items on a list. Firearms are just one area where this applies particularly well.

Well put. Being prepared is not just about collecting toys, excuse me, I meant tools.

I'll also note the chances of you (the proverbial you that is, not throwing stones) hurting me or some other bystander by mishandling your flint and striker or compass is a quite bit lower than the chance of hurting someone while mishandling a firearm.

- Eric

Yep, negligent discharges happen even on a relatively safe firing range by novice and experienced shooters alike. Take away the gun handling experience and then add some fear and hunger -- recipe for disaster.

My mind goes back to ~2007 when I first searched on preparedness and hit on Doug Ritter's site, and his approach to lists was as thorough as it was informative. I built my first organized supplies (car, home, office etc) based on his lists. Worth a read now if you haven't in a while. But Doug's lists have explanations for many of the items - an element of education - which is not typical on many other lists. I think that FEMA authors fear the average reader's eyes may glaze over by page 2, or may only succeed in collecting the first page's contents, and never get to other of life's necessities (water, first aid etc). And maybe so, we're in the age of FaceBook and twitter where the thought process is sub-haiku, just 144 characters.

Also I think Doug's treatment of firearms in kits is logical and reasonable and pretty much settles the issue for me.

Not to derail the thread, but...Speaking of which, it always struck me as somewhat odd that, in Doug's write-up of firearms, he doesn't mention that he carries a Glock model 22 concealed from time to time (or at least used to). With that in mind, I figured there would at least be a little blurb on the merits of lawful concealed carry by responsible individuals.

He mentions defense against larger animals, but sometimes it's the smaller animals of both the four-legged and two-legged variety that can be even more threatening to our survival. Not to mention, they're the ones more likely to be encountered.

(Speaking of which, my one experience where an animal encounter truly made me fear for my life was when I was accosted by a pack of feral dogs while I was just minding my own business loading up snowmobiles on the side of a road. It never ceases to amaze me how a situation can go from fun and enjoyment to sheer terror in a split second.)

Doug resides in Arizona.Arizona has Allowances for many things that Most other states do not,&There is Nothing Odd about that,That said,I think it's the Individual's duty to research as to whether it is lawful or unlawful to carry firearms,Exposed or Concealed,& Then,Make their own conclusions thereof!

Actually, most states do allow concealed carry in either unrestricted or shall issue form:



Which is why I always thought it somewhat odd that Doug doesn't seem to mention anything about concealed carry anywhere (being that he does carry himself.) After all, it is a survival related issue. As I said previously, it's not always the largest animals one has to worry about.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is: Saying a firearm is of little use in the lower 48, and then carrying one yourself....just seems a little contradictory.

However, as with the FEMA list, I can understand if the issue was purposefully omitted to make it more appealing to a wider audience.

Paul810,You are Contradicting yourself,Check your Post/Graph again,I see only Arizona,Alaska & Vermont as Unrestricted-(Lime Green as opposed to Forest Green)Shall issue is a Whole world different than Unrestricted!It's Your own choice,Whether you feel a threat enough to carry or not,How & Where,I don't find any contradiction for Doug not advocating why he has a firearm in his kit.My guess is the info isn't there,Probably to avoid any confusion on his or any others behalf,Really it is up to you to figure it out on your own,if it bother's you so much!

Looks like I need to pay close attention to this thread...

-Blast, pre-soaking a cat.

I Agree with Lono. Doug Rocks! He and ETS helped me out tremendously when I got started - and they still do. Thank you all!

When I think of FEMA's lists and info, I think of my mom. She's an average 65 year old. Not stupid but pretty clueless about this stuff despite being a nurse, a nursing home adminstrator and a former camper. She needs things to be simple and straight-foward. Even with a solid list, shopping for supplies is a challenge. When she went camping with us a few years ago, she was overwhelmed by the selection of tents and sleeping bags and she only went to one store.

Explaining the purpose of the items on the list, and what to look for, would be a big help when it comes time to actually gather the supplies. We ETSers could spending months debating which item X is better, but that's only going to confuse and waylay the newbie prepper.

It's a fine balance, kind of like when your kid first shows an interest in your favorite hobby. It's hard to hold back and not try to turn them into an expert on the first day. Feeding them information as they are ready to absorb it takes patience.

No worries Sheriff,I heard the cat from here!

I see nothing inherently "wrong" with FEMA's list. It is a list that is far better than nothing. If everyone had this kind of kit available when needed it would make a big difference.

FEMA is in the tough position of trying to navigate a minefield here. They can't really tell people they need to consider that they might well be on their own for weeks without outside help as that would trigger all kinds of unpleasant questions about how that could possibly happen, despite it happening on a pretty regular basis.

They cannot tell people to have guns or effective knives because that is moderately political in nature, and not always legal, despite being often useful in disasters. plus, if you take your guns/knives to a shelter set up by FEMA, they will make sure they are confiscated. They are not going to tell you you should have something they won't allow you to keep.

I don't think three days of water is enough, but I don't know how much is. Is 5 days enough? Ten?

Matches or a lighter have started many a fire. Probably the vast majority of fires that have ever been started deliberately. I see nothing wrong with it. Is it the perfect fire starting solution? No. Nothing really is, but it is far better than nothing.

How much food do you need? Most people can live a long time without all that much food. It's a lower priority than other things IMO. Few of us are going to die or be much more than inconvenienced if we don't eat for a day or two.

As for shelter, a tube tent is cheap. It provides some minimal level of protection from the elements. It takes up little or no room.

Part of the challenge of this kind of list is making the kit small enough and cheap enough that the average person who never needed one is actually willing to create one.

Given current events, a recession caused by the top 1% that has financially gutted the lower 75% and caused many people to lose jobs, benefits, insurance the people most vulnerable in any disaster are also the least financially and emotionally capable of assembling any reserve supplies. These are people struggling to keep a roof over their head, feed the kids and keep enough gas in the car to get to work. Which assumes they have a job.

The FEMA list is much more practical. Its emphasis is on keeping things simple, as inexpensive as possible, and getting the most bang for any effort put into it. It does a pretty good job of it. You can quibble over individual items and amounts included, I'm not enthusiastic about some of the trade-offs and compromises, but they cover the bases and give you something to work with to cover most needs.

If every household had such a kit you would smooth a lot of the rough edges on any disaster. It also has to be pointed out that a three day kit may, if you are careful and husband resources, get you through six days. The main limitation is water supply. Water, which can be problematic after a disaster, is fortunately the easiest resource to pick up before a disaster. A rinsed bleach bottle full of tap water is easily arrange and is close to being free. A six-pack of bottles water is inexpensive.

After an event water from toilet tanks, water heaters are resources. Water repositioned by filling garbage bags and laid flat in the tub are handy. All of those are cheap and available with minimal investments in cash and effort.

There are UK Government sites like Dealing with Emergencies and UK Resilience.

We have more than that. There's a lot of practical information on the above sites. Feel free to criticise it, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

I checked out both website links and still was unable to find an adequate list. Although I can see in this link;

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommu...ncies/DG_176651

that they are still using the 'preparing for emergencies' logo.



I thought I would try the previous attempt by the UK government for a www.ready.gov type one stop shop to look for a preparedness list but the website isn't available

www.preparingforemergencies.gov.uk

so I decided to UK google the words 'preparing for emergencies'
and found this link

www.preparingforemergencies.co.uk

There are plenty of preparedness lists if you look hard enough but they are usually just part of the local UK Council authority websites tacked on as an after thought.

In the UK there are also no advertisement campaigns to publicise any preparedness websites in the UK to make the folks aware of the issue.

We don't even have any childrens TV shows like we did in the 1970s such as the infamous 'Orlov' anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EvJS6c0k4o