Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort

Posted by: ireckon

Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 05:13 PM

The movie "Frozen" is not real, but it did have me trying to problem solve. In the movie, three people got caught on a chair lift about 50 feet up in the middle of the night when the resort shut everything down. The resort was not set to open for another 5 days in the middle of the winter. The people in the movie had NO survival preparation.

What would you bring with you to deal with a situation where you're stuck up there on a ski lift? It would help the discussion if you have gone skiing several times so that you're familiar with how these lifts operate. Let's just assume this predicament could happen for the sake of the thread. I'd rather not discuss reasons why this predicament could never happen, and actually chair lifts have gotten stuck before and have left people stranded for hours.

Here's most of what I carry while snowboarding:

-regular snowboard gear (proper clothing, goggles, helmet, etc.)
-cell phone
-whistle
-small mirror
-small flashlight
-small fire starters
-miniature multi-tool
-credit card and cash
-identification

Try not to laugh at what I'm about to say. I've thought about adding some 550 paracord in order to do an emergency rappel from about 50 feet up. The problem is that I don't know how to do an emergency rappel. I'm confident I could tie appropriate knots. My biggest obstacle would be my personal strength and the rope strength, I think.

Your thoughts and instructions are welcomed.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 05:17 PM

People without functioning brains have a high propensity for dying. Let the ski lift people deal with the bodies next week.

Sue
Posted by: dweste

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 05:24 PM

I will assume that all efforts at signaling for help with cell phones, whatever has failed and there is no sign of help.

I will also assume that survival requires getting down without outside help.

You probably have the best part of 50 feet of clothing and poles to tie together, slither down, and drop to the snow.
Posted by: chaosmagnet

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 05:40 PM

I'd try my flashlight or mirror and my cellphone before trying to get down myself. Remember that your phone may be able to reach 911 even if it says "no service". You may also be able to send text messages even if you don't have voice connectivity.

This is another situation where a PLB would make a problem much easier to solve.

One option would be to ditch my skis, throw my belt over the cable and try to slide down to the next T-bar and climb down that. It would depend on how steep the lift is at that point and whether the T-bars have ladders on them (many of the ones I've seen do). I'd also need to wear a belt, which I do almost every day that I'm not skiiing.

Another option would be to jump off and try to hit at an angle that would allow me to ski down and avoid injury. Throwing the skis clear and trying to land on soft and fluffy snow would be another alternative. Neither sounds like a good idea from 50 feet up.

I'd be extraordinarily reluctant to trust poles or pole straps to hold a human's weight, and equally reluctant to take my clothes off in order to climb down.
Posted by: jzmtl

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 05:56 PM

I knew you are going to talk about that movie lol, the entire premises of the movie is based on literally everyone at the resort failing to do their job, and false facts.

It's literally impossible to happen unless you try hard (i.e. sneak onto the lift after they close). But even if it does, just climb on the lift cable onto the next tower, then use the ladder to get down.

As far as signal goes, whistle, flashlight, and cellphone are my regular ski gear, always on my person.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 06:07 PM

Yeah, it's out there, but let's just assume it's possible to get stranded. By the way, it has happened occasionally where a lift has gotten stuck and people are stranded for hours.

I've thought about the idea of climbing the cable to the closest tower, but I don't think that's as easy as it sounds. It would be freakin' scary as hell because it's way up there and everything metal would be slippery. It wouldn't be like doing pull-ups in a warm gym where I get to drop when I feel like it. I'd have to be flawless at a brand new activity that would be unlike anything I've ever done. Once I reach the tower, the ladder is not right there where the cable is. I'd have to perform a super human climbing maneuver to get over to the ladder, while cold and exhausted, and while everything metal is slippery.

Hmmm...One hundred feet of 550 paracord is about as light as my cell phone. I just don't know how to perform an emergency rappel.
Posted by: Ann

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 06:14 PM

A PLB sounds a lot safer than an emergency repel with 550 paracord, and shouldn't have much of a weight penalty.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 06:16 PM

Also, climbing on steel cable is not like climbing a hemp rope. The occasional frayed wire will penetrate skin. Gloves will help from short ones, but they're not all short. BTDT
Posted by: Denis

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 06:21 PM

Actually, this situation is not quite as far fetched as I'd thought after seeing the movie. A few days back I saw a news story where tourist ended up stuck overnight in one of the gondolas at Whistler.

She accidentally got on the one headed up the mountain (which was about to shut down) instead of the one going down the mountain (which was still running for a few more hours) and I guess no one noticed and shut down the upper section while she was mid-way up the mountain.

The situation was a little better than the one in "Frozen" though; it was only shut down overnight instead of for 5 days and there were likely no man-eating wolves circling below smile. Still, I wouldn't think 13 hours in an unheated gondola with temperatures dipping to -9 C (16 F) would be that much fun.

As far as what to do, I don't think I'd try getting down unless I had a really good reason to think I couldn't signal someone for help or be otherwise be discovered within a reasonable amount of time. For this, EDC items like a flashlight, whistle and cell phone would be the most likely to help. Staying warm would be the tricky part, maybe some spare hand/toe warmers and a Heatsheet would help for this (assuming otherwise appropriate gear is worn).

And then, realistically, by the time I figured rescue was not going to happen I kinda doubt I'd be in great shape physically to make an escape anyway. That said, I guess the key would be getting as close to the ground as possible before dropping (I think I recall hearing that 30 feet is on the borderline of where the possibility of avoiding serious injury becomes somewhat reasonable?). Unless I had at least 30 feet of rope or paracord on me, I don't know if I'd even try this.
Posted by: juhirvon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 06:30 PM

550 paracord would take your weight, but it's too thin to actually hold on to. Unless you have vice grip hands, it'll just slide through your fingers (unless you have enough to tie loops for hands and feet).

One option would be to pack in a large enough and strong enough carbineer or two to actually hold in your hand. Wrap the cord 5 or 6 times through the carbineer (see attached picture). If the paracord is held taut from below the carbineers, they should hold. So if you have two, hold your weight on one and slide the other one down, then repeat.

The need to keep the line taut is the gaping flaw in this plan, it either requires experience holding it taught with your feet, or maybe attaching plenty of weights to the bottom = dangerous if you fall). And paracord might be too slippery to hold, but this might still slow your descend enough to make it safe.

Obviously, I'm just speculating here. I have no idea if this would actually work, I've seen experienced rock climbers doing it for fun (sliding down at breakneck speeds and then with the flick of an ankle slowing down just in time for a featherweight landing).

Actually. Now that I've wrote all that and took the photo, I'd probably just tie the paracord around me in an improvised harness and attach it to the cable with the carbineer. That way you don't fall if you slip as you crawl, not run, to the nearest tower.

Better throw everything pointy, hard or awkward well away from any place you might fall on before attempting anything.

EDIT: Here.

The carbineer pictured is a tad too small for me, can fit my fingers through but hurts like hell, especially if I would have my whole weight on them.

2ND EDIT:
Although probably obvious, should have mentioned that the rock climbers weren't using paracord and carbineers like that, but professional, purpose-made gear and climbing ropes.

-jh
Posted by: chaosmagnet

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 06:36 PM

An emergency rappel with paracord is asking for serious injury or death. It's too narrow and slippery to work right for rappelling. Paracord is rated for 550 lbs of static load; the dynamic loads of a rappel would be between twice and four times your body weight. It's also too stretchy under load.

A lousy but possibly better option would be to tie a foothold-sized loop every couple of feet and climb down. You'd have to tie big loops to fit your skiboots in them, and you'd have to be 100% confident in your ability to correctly tie yourself off. Dynamic loads would be less, and if you had enough length to double it up it might work for one person, once. That person could then ski down and get help for anyone left behind on the chair.

Paracord is useful for a lot of things but for this scenario I'd much rather carry a PLB.
Posted by: PackRat

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 06:36 PM

Not an unheard of situation.

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local...ishColumbiaHome

Several friends have spent 6+ hours stuck on chairlifts in cold weather waiting for hill staff to rescue them so I have given this some thought.

If you are abandoned after hours then you are on your own and your best bet is probably a PLB as many hills will not have cell service. Your second option may be to attempt self rescue either by lowering yourself if you have a long enough rope or sliding down the cable to the nearest tower which would also require a rope and a lot of nerve.

When resort skiing I usually carry a small pack that rides high so that it does not interfere too much with the back of the chair. In the pack I carry:
- Down coat for upper body warmth
- Emergency bivy that I can put my legs in for a wind break and some warmth
- Large mits that will fit over my ski gloves
- Balaclava for my head
- Foam pad that I can sit on as many chairs have little insulation and a very cold seat.
- Snacks
- 30m of climbing cord, locking carabiners and climbing webbing that I can use if desperate to lower myself to the ground or to a point where a drop my not be so severe.

The plan is to dress warm and wait for the hill staff to rescue you.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: PackRat
30m of climbing cord, locking carabiners and climbing webbing that I can use if desperate to lower myself to the ground or to a point where a drop my not be so severe.


Please explain how you'd do this, or point me to a website, thanks. I have never done anything like that before.

Originally Posted By: juhirvon
Actually. Now that I've wrote all that and took the photo, I'd probably just tie the paracord around me in an improvised harness and attach it to the cable with the carbineer. That way you don't fall if you slip as you crawl, not run, to the nearest tower.


Hmmm...I hadn't thought of this.
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 07:21 PM

Yes, strandings do occur. Either it's a mechanical failure or it's a goof-up by seasonal staff who are mostly there to ski/party.

These days, there is cell service in any ski area I can think of. It's more or less mandatory (whadda ya mean I can't watch gootube and rebalance my stock portfolio in between runs? I've seen better service in Afghanistan ... etc. etc. blah blah).

So I think your odds of being forgotten and being incommunicado for an extended period are pretty darn low.

Unless you're right against a tower, notions of abseiling down using scarves and bootlaces are, frankly, a fast way to turn a 'rescue' into a 'recovery.' Leave that to the movies, where it apparently works.

Otherwise, if you've been there for more than 24 hours and have a PLB, or less and it's intensely cold, it's probably appropriate to hit the switch.

But consider also that when the runs shut down, there are almost always hard-core locals in the lower areas xc-skiing and snowshoeing, well into dawn and dusk. Generally, they fart in the direction of the ski-resort-types; but if you're flicking your little LED light in threes from a gondola, they'll call it in.

My $0.02.



Posted by: Paul810

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 07:27 PM

I agree that a PLB is probably the way to go. It works where cellphones don't and it would lead to the safest possible rescue method (i.e. Someone coming back and turning the lift back on.)


Now, if you are hell-bent on rappelling down, there is micro-rappel equipment available out there. I have no experience with it, but from reviews I've read it seems to work (and the same system is sold from many other vendors).

Maxim Micro Rappel System
Posted by: JBMat

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 08:00 PM

Anyone see Mythbusters?

You are not sliding down the cable, unless you have a giant carabiner that fits over the cable. Even if you have one, there is the stopping issue. And the other seats in the way. Clothing did not work. Paracord will melt through, friction is a bear. So that idea is shot down really quickly.

You really can't rappel with 550 cord. Regardless of the rated weight, your body will generate more than the line can hold - each knot reduces the line's ability to hold weight. Start swinging, you generate more weight. That and you can't hold onto it, yada yada yada.

I mean, really - have the number for the resort on you. Lift stops, call them on your cell phone. Or call 911.

I've been at several places at night. The better ones have some poor schlub go out there and stop people from getting on the lift after a certain time. The times are posted, heed them. He makes note of the lift chair number where/when he started, and when it comes around again he knows no one is on the lift (pretty sneak huh? Guess who got to be the poor schlub a time or two?)

If you get caught on a ski lift, absent mechanical problems, someone screwed up and you probably had a small part in the screw up also.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 08:00 PM

If you are actually concerned about this, you need to learn how to rappel. There is not that much difference between an "emergency rappel" and a relatively normal rappel. While I seriously doubt you will ever need this technique to escape from a ski lift, it is a broadly useful technique for dealing with steep terrain and it could well come in handy in other situations.

In order to rappel with any reasonable margin of safety, you will need to carry some minimum gear and you should learn several techniques so that you can employ whatever gear might be at hand. Also, learn some of the fundamentals of rock climbing and proper rope usage - sometimes you have to go up as well as down. Somewhere, sometime, some one should develop a course in "survival rock climbing and rope use."

It is interesting that skiers and snowboarders spend inadvertent overnights fairly often, typically as a result of skiing out of bounds. As far as I know, the cited instance of someone overnighting in a gondola is unique. Why not concern yourself with a situation that is statistically far more common?

Add a Heat Sheet and a couple of Esbit tabs to the gear have and you will be far better prepared to deal with what is more likely to happen.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 08:11 PM

Or you could deal with the given scenario of facing 5 days midwinter in midair with no hope of outside recovery.
Posted by: jzmtl

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: ireckon
Yeah, it's out there, but let's just assume it's possible to get stranded. By the way, it has happened occasionally where a lift has gotten stuck and people are stranded for hours.

I've thought about the idea of climbing the cable to the closest tower, but I don't think that's as easy as it sounds. It would be freakin' scary as hell because it's way up there and everything metal would be slippery.


Yeah I've been stuck for half an hour or so, but at least there are tons of other suckers o the lift freezing their ass off too. laugh Oh and I forgot to say, after that, I keep a mylar space blanket in my pocket all the time. So if it happens again, I have something to keep the wind off me.

As far as climbing goes, use both your arm and legs like monkey does it, you won't even have to look down.

Originally Posted By: Russ
Also, climbing on steel cable is not like climbing a hemp rope. The occasional frayed wire will penetrate skin. Gloves will help from short ones, but they're not all short. BTDT


I've never ever seen a fray on lift cable. They are regularly inspected, with some sort of electromagnetic instrument even.
Posted by: MostlyHarmless

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: jzmtl

As far as climbing goes, use both your arm and legs like monkey does it, you won't even have to look down.


Anyone who has tried climbing monkey style on a greasy steel cable that is inclined at a rather steep angle? I've done it for fun with ropes made of nice comfortable natural fibers of comparable diameter. They were also aligned in the horizontal direction. That was great fun and not really difficult (of course, I would not fall very far if I let go of the rope). I would not be inclined to try the same trick on a ski lift cable.

Realistically, I think your options are limited to
1) wait,
2) signal for help,
3) jump. Jumping imposes a great risk for injury. Which do you prefer - waiting for rescue while laying immobilized and in great pain in the snow, or waiting for rescue in the chair lift?


As several has pointed out, paracord isn't rappelling gear. If that is all you have, consider it as a form of jumping: At best, your paracord-rappelling attempt will bring you a few feet closer to the ground before it breaks. The result will be the same: You are immobilized and waiting for rescue beneath the chair lift, but at least you're 2 feet "less hurt" than if you had just jumped straight off.


I love to visit ski resorts. How do I prepare for the given scenario? By hydrating so my brain cells keep functioning. That should keep me from straying onto the wrong chair lift at the end of the day.
Posted by: Glock-A-Roo

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 09:11 PM

This thread is teh ghey. There's enough real threats out there without burning bandwidth on ridiculous hypotheticals. I regret adding to this thread's post count, but someone had to say it.

Jeesh.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 09:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
This thread is teh ghey.


Getting stranded on a ski lift is a homosexual experience to you?
Posted by: jzmtl

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: MostlyHarmless
Originally Posted By: jzmtl

As far as climbing goes, use both your arm and legs like monkey does it, you won't even have to look down.


Anyone who has tried climbing monkey style on a greasy steel cable that is inclined at a rather steep angle?


Lift cables are not greasy, they are bone dry and quite clean being pelted by snow and ice all the time.
Posted by: Eric

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/15/11 10:08 PM

Not terribly likely but I'll play along.

I'm no longer in shape for significant acrobatics / heroics so I'll play it safe and use one of my cell phones (yes I carry two) to call/text/email for help.

If we further annoy the gods of probability so that neither cell phone is working then I'll have to settle in and try signaling for help with my flashlight.

I don't think I'd be stuck for much more than overnight because family/friends would quickly miss me and knowing I was last out skiing get some people looking for me.

For reference - I have "jumped" to solid, level ground from about 10' up when I was (much) younger and wouldn't want to try it at my current weight and age. I have also jumped into 5' of new snow from nearly 20' up when I was younger, no major damage but it was not a soft landing. Add in a slope and unknown terrain features and I'll probably focus on waiting it out while trying to signal for help.

-Eric
Posted by: Aussie

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/16/11 01:13 AM

There are certainly occasions where you can be stuck on a chair lift for a period of time, hopefully you’re not forgotten and left for the week, but a mechanical failure or other emergency my cause you to be stuck for a time.

I'm not sure about packing equipment specifically for a chair lift emergency, but my general skiing equipment includes a "space blanket" type bag and high energy food snacks and when I’m in the snow I always have some extra clothing.

Alerting authorities, shelter and food are probably the priorities.

After reading through the discussion I’ll make a point of adding the ski resort’s emergency phone numbers to my contact list (in addition to general emergency numbers). Then (hopefully) I can phone up and ask what’s happening and how long.

Re paracord rappels. I think (as was mentioned) you may be able to use some cord to get you a bit lower to the ground (before you jump/fall), but if you were high up it would seem foolish.

BUT after speaking to the resort management you could lower your paracord to the ground ask management to tie on some supplies – food, clothing, blankets. (I guess you could also use it to pull up a proper climbing rope, but I really don’t see this ever happening)
Posted by: comms

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/16/11 02:03 AM

There was another 'Frozen' thread on here a few months back. The movie falls right into what Sue basically said, "if you stupid enough to play that game in real life, you get what you ask for."

However, IF stuck alone, it is generally a good rule to have contact with society and if a cell phone doesn't work where you're going then planning to have a PLB makes sense. I own a SPOT2 so it is usually in whatever pack I have with me. I don't ski, but I guess I might have a pack with me or put it in my pocket. I'm not sure.

As to repelling with 550 cord, it can be done. I have done it from 3 stories up. I made a swiss seat out of 550 cord, I used a carabiner and using rock climbing gloves I repelled down using 550 cord. You have to have good control of the rope through the carabiner so it doesn't get away from you and your decent rate is slow, and the swiss seat will leave some pretty bad and unique bruising.

I think all things considered if I was skiing and stranded I'd more likely have the SPOT2 on me than enough 550 cord to repel.
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/16/11 02:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Aussie
BUT after speaking to the resort management you could lower your paracord to the ground ask management to tie on some supplies – food, clothing, blankets. (I guess you could also use it to pull up a proper climbing rope, but I really don’t see this ever happening)


All ski mountain lifts in my AO have specially trained lift rescue people on the mountain at all times (mandated.) Their job is to get people off the lifts as quickly and safely as possible. These people are very good at at. I have had the opportunity more then once to see these teams practice back when a friend worked on a local ski hill and was trained in this type of rescue.

If you are to the point that you are speaking with the resort manager, chances are you will be safely rescued in due time and not have to find your way down a climbing rope on your own...
Posted by: Pete

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/16/11 05:42 PM

Some interesting ideas here. Lets look at the options.

If you've got 3 people stranded on a chairlift, you only need to get one person lowered down safely (right)? It only takes one person to go for help. It might be possible to use belts, and skis to lower one person down by 20-30 feet. Then maybe they could drop the remaining 20 feet, land safely in the snow, and walk out for help. It all depends on what the terrain is like underneath the chair lift. I doubt that you could lower a person the whole 50 feet - not enough gear. The main problem with this procedure is that once you start lowering the person, it's going to be nearly impossible for them to climb back up. So you have to get it right the first time.

I like the idea of climbing off the top of the lift, going along the cables, and going down one of the support towers. Or maybe I should say - it's intriguing. But it's also quite dangerous. If the weather is bad, and esp. if conditions are very cold and icy, the chance of taking a bad fall could be quite high. If you were going to attempt something like this, it would be smart to attach some kind of belt around your waist, so you could connect the belt to the cables as you do the horizontal section of the traverse. That way the belt can support some of your weight. But I have to tell you that this whole procedure could be enormously strenuous, esp. if the person climbing cannot find a rest position a few times during the escape.

Back to your original question. Yes, you can bundle up low-diameter paracord and keep it on you. But rapelling on this stuff is much harder than you think. Even if you have a single strand 9mm rope (the standard lightweight rope for technical climbing), you will find that there is marginal braking ability with normal rappel devices. It can be done, but you need to be careful selecting the right rappel device before you do it.

Small diameter paracord would be a major problem. It MIGHT be possible for one person to tie into one end of the cord, and then wrap it around the metal on the chairlift many times to add friction, and then have the other 2 people lower the person down. That might work. But before you rely on paracord, i suggest that you actually try it out (SAFELY!) at home. You'll see what I'm saying.

other Pete
Posted by: njs

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/16/11 06:55 PM

Back when I was on a volunteer ski patrol I carried a webbing harness, carabiner, rappel device and about 80 feet of 7 mm accessory cord. The entire set up weighed about 2 pounds and fit into a waist pack. At that resort, 80' was enough to get down from most chairs using double strands and all the chairs on a single strand. The 7mm diameter cord is strong enough and tough enough for that type of use and will work controllably with several types of rapel devices. I carried additional slings to be able to lower other people as well. If word came over the radio, or by a patroller under the lift, that a chair was going to be inoperative for and extend time, we patrollers could self evacuate and then assist others with gear from the ground.

As far as climbing on the cable goes, good luck. The weight and bulk of heavy clothing and the awkwardness of ski/snowboard boots would make this very challenging to say the least. Another consideration is what would happen if the chair started moving? Would you survive an encounter with the wheels of a lift tower cable support? If you are rappelling when the lift starts moving it is not as nearly as bad.

I still carry a similar rapel setup in my inbounds ski pack nowdays, just in case.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/16/11 09:41 PM

njs ... what rappel device did they recommend for the 7 mm cord? Can you give us a brand name, or better still a link on the Web?

Otherwise, I tend to be in agreement with an opinion expressed above that you are taking a serious risk by trying to rap using paracord. The chances of getting into a free-fall accident are high. Not to mention the nasty burns you would get on your hands. People who do fast rappels either use special rappel devices (e.g. caving gear), or fat ropes (military).

other Pete
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/16/11 10:19 PM

njs...Yes, I too am interested in this rappel device, and not just for the original scenario.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/17/11 06:40 PM

By the way ... I do like the idea of just using a PLB, or a SPOT satellite signalling device. That is by far the most practical solution.

But the suggestion by Chaosmagnet is also really good - shoulda' thought of that one myself. Just take your paracord and tie a bunch of loops in it. Then use these footloops for support as you climb down. Having spent some time ascending and descending ropes, I think you'll find that even if you have foot loops the process is still quite strenuous. And it might be darn scary if you are doing it with paracord. For this reason, tie an extra waist loop around your body (with a separate piece of paracord), and use a carabiner to also clip your waist to the loops as you go down. This prevents a falling accident, and it allows you to hang your weight from your waist every now and then - giving you some rest. That will help a lot.

You need a lot more paracord if you do this. If you've ever tied a bunch of loops into a rope - it takes up a LOT of rope length!

other Pete
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/17/11 07:42 PM

Respectfully to all, I have to say that IMHO the 'solution' above is too darn close to suicide to be a practical plan. You might just get lucky and get away with it; but based on my work with fall protection in industry, the math is totally against you. The forces involved are ten times what you think they are, and I would hate to have this site implicated in a recovery. You can do what you want of course, but that's my $0.02. Good luck.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/17/11 07:51 PM

This is a good thread to help me think things through...

Carrying 550 paracord would be a good idea for other reasons. This past winter, I've had two friends get caught in sinkholes in fresh powder. One friend hyperventilated because it was dark inside and she had that feeling of doom on her. The situation could have turned out badly. She's an experienced skier, but like many skiers didn't have survival preparation.

Some 550 paracord and a good buddy would have helped the situation and may have saved her life if the sinkhole was deeper. She could have attached a heavy object to the paracord and thrown one end outside of the sinkhole. The buddy on the outside could have used the paracord to help pull her out.

Here's another personal example. A few years ago, I was riding with some buddies in fresh powder off piste. I got caught on the edge of a sinkhole. It was pulling me in. I really did not know where the hole was going. It took about an hour for me to slowly crawl my way out of that situation. Again, paracord and a good buddy would have helped me out. I would just need my buddy to attach the paracord to a tree. I could do the rest.

I'm convinced that I'll be carrying paracord when I go snowboarding. In yet another example, I could use the paracord to help a buddy get out of sinkhole. Getting stuck in fresh powder happens often. At least once a year, the getting stuck is beyond frustrating and is a scary situation.
Posted by: jzmtl

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/17/11 08:14 PM

Has anyone tried to stick a ski boot into a free hanging paracord loop in very likely windy condition? I'm sorry but that's not happening.

If anyone insists, it's probably much better to just carry some actual climbing rope.

Woah I just checked price on actual climbing rope, god damn they are expensive! Paying $150+ for something that may be useful once in a blue moon is too much for me.
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/17/11 09:10 PM

There are rappelling set ups the ski patrol carries to lower themselves and their avalanche dogs out of the lifts so they can help with any lift evacuation. Get some training before you attempt
anything.

The one I used was a 6mm climbing cord, a locking carabiner and a piece of webbing to make a swiss seat. This was 25 years ago so
protocols may have changed.

Practice first on a short safe overhang till you find the correct
munter hitch or carabiner wrap that produces enough friction.

Don't leave the rope dangling from the chair after an evac or you
make cause more problems for other stranded persons when they get
the chair moving again.

A cord this thin will easily cut over an edge, so be sure to use a
smooth attachment point to double the rope over.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/17/11 10:42 PM

Further good comments from readers. I understand the concern about using paracord that only has a strength of 500 pounds. It might be a lot better - for general survival purposes - to have something thicker in your rucksack ... like 6mm or 7 mm line. I would not personally try to lower off on paracord, unless it was a dire emergency and my life was in serious jeopardy if I stayed in place.

I definitely agree with the comment that the line cannot run over any sharp edges - you would need to pad the support points. That's a good practice to use for any rope work, and it would be vital for thin diameter line.

Paracord might be quite useful if you want to support people on a descent that is not vertical. And it would be excellent as a means for tying in team members who are walking under conditions of very low visibility - just so they don't get separated. People can become disoriented, or lose their mental concentration.

other Pete
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/17/11 11:52 PM

I am with Doug on this one. Really think about this. What are the odds of someone getting stuck on a ski hill chairlift and needing to be self rescued to the point you are willing to risk your relatively safe life on the lift and decide to rappel down?

Rappelling down rope from a lift (and definitely not paracord) should never be done by anyone without proper training beforehand and this why ski resorts employ and train people for this specific purpose.

Besides myself, Hikemor and perhaps a few others on this forum who have some moutaineering experience, there are also a few professsional SAR and workplace experienced people such as Doug who have first hand knowledge with rope and harness systems. I would think that all would collectively and strongly discourage anyone from even contemplating such a potential injury ridden or life ending venture.

Posted by: raptor

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/17/11 11:58 PM

This is the first time I have read about sinkholes in the snow. Interesting. I will have to read up on them.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: raptor
This is the first time I have read about sinkholes in the snow. Interesting. I will have to read up on them.


I'd say sinkholes are more common in the snow. It's kind of like the video below but on the mountain during a fresh powder day. If you don't go off piste, you don't really have any worries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2owkth9TSTA
Posted by: Mark_M

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 01:11 AM

I'm not a climber, but I was wondering:

Could you friction knots to make paracord descenders that could control your speed? E.g., like one of the knots here: http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Prusik.htm?

Or, assuming you have enough paracord, quadruple it up and twist to make a larger bundle, then do a leg wrap or dulfersitz for a controlled descent. Specifically, I'm thinking about the "Surviving Disaster" Towering Inferno episode (see Part 6).

Ultimately, if you are planning for a situation of this sort, then better to prepare adequately than rely on something that is not suitable for the task. It seems to me that you can get a starter kit with 100' rope, bag, figure-8 and carabiner for around $150, and spend another $30-50 on a harness. There are also emergency building escape kits, primarily designed for firefighters, running between $150 and $200 (plus harness).

With lift tickets running over $60/day, if this is a potential risk for you, the $200 seems a reasonable precaution. Many skiers spend more than that just on their boots.

Finally, you there was a lengthy discussion about using paracord to repell out of buildings in this thread:
http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=187229&page=1
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 01:24 AM

Take a look at how much work it is to safely rescue people off a low chairlift. Who/what would you trust more? Your little bag of rope and harness in your inexperienced hands or a pro who is equipped to keep you alive..



Another example with single rope.


Posted by: ireckon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 01:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_M
Or, assuming you have enough paracord, quadruple it up and twist to make a larger bundle, then do a leg wrap or dulfersitz for a controlled descent. Specifically, I'm thinking about the "Surviving Disaster" Towering Inferno episode (see Part 6).


Do you have a time code? Those videos are 42 minutes long.
Posted by: njs

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 01:59 AM

To thos who asked, I didn't use anything special for 7mm rope, just a belay/rappel plate that looks like a metal circle with two oval slots, and a large diameter tubing auto locking carabiner. I used the same set up to rappel thousands of feet of fixed line on mountaineering trips. Belay plates are out of fashion now, replaced with ATC and Reverso type devices.

Later, I used an original Black Diamond ATC with single strand 7mm cord a fat carabiner. That is the key item, a carabiner with thick tubing.

The new BD Guide device, my current choice, is rated to work with 7.7 mm - 11mm rope but will handle 7mm using a Petz Attache carabiner.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 03:58 AM

I would like to make a few points:

1) Rappelling is dangerous. In Yosemite Valley, rappelling kills as many climbers as does lead climbing. There must be fifty ways to die while rappelling (at least). There are many critical elements in a rappel system and failure or malfunction of any one can end things badly. I have dealt with the aftermath of rappelling accidents and, believe me, it is not a good way to die.

While it doesn't require physical strength or even particularly great coordination, rappelling does demand great attention to detail and concentration - occasionally even creative problem solving. You must know what you are doing. It is not something you should learn from a book; achieving true competence takes time and experience in varied situations.

2) Paracord has been around a long time and climbers tried using for various applications right after WWII. I remember reading in an edition of Accidents in North American Mountaineering years ago, after the discussion of an incident where paracord failure killed a climber that basically paracord had no legitimate application in climbing.

That holds true today. Find me a responsible climber or group who will advocate using paracord for rappelling or any other life support function. Two of the best written sources, Montaineering: The Freedom of the Hills and the caver's bible, On Rope do not mention use of paracord for any climbing functio.

Cavers are beginning to use thinner ropes for vertical travel in some very specialized situations - very deep caves where the total weight of the rope can be very critical. Here we are talking 6mm or 7mm rope, used with great care.

3) This whole discussion arose over a fictional occurrence - a movie script, for heaven's sakes. When I am out in wintry conditions, I try and keep minimum bivouac gear with me- HeatSheet, fire making materials, and something to eat and drink. These will be useful in any number of situations where I might be stranded and have to spend the night out, including the very unlikely possibility of being stranded on a lift overnight. I really can't see the need to carry a significant amount of specialized gear to gaurd against a problem that is not likely to ever occur.

I guess the question might be: How many people have died trying to rappel versus how many have died from being stranded overnight on a chairlift? I suspect the answer is several hundred rappellers and no chairlift victims.
Posted by: njs

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 12:51 PM

"I guess the question might be: How many people have died trying to rappel versus how many have died from being stranded overnight on a chairlift? I suspect the answer is several hundred rappellers and no chairlift victims."

I suspect that the real answer is no one, or almost no one has ever died trying to rappel out of a chair lift. Here is my reasoning.

Firstly, for the most part chair lifts are very reliable. In the event that they do stop working for more than the few minutes typical of loading/unloading issues, stranded riders are informed by ski patrol and mountain employees about the repair/rescue status so those contemplating self evacuation probably wouldn't bother to try.

Secondly, the few individuals who do actually carry self-evacuation gear probably now how to use it, such as ski patrol and mountain employees and know when it is acceptable to use. Lastly, I just haven't seen any comments on such a things in the news or online at any ski/snowboard forums.

What I have seen first hand and learned of in the news are injuries to people caused by jumping off of temporarily stropped lifts onto what they think is soft snow from what they thought, wasn't too high.

The whole, stranded on a chair lift (not enclosed tram/gondola) scenario is utterly silly to me, since at most resorts where I've patrolled or skied the standard practice is that when a chair is "closed", access is limited while the chairs continue to run and each chair is inspected. In some cases this means flipping seats up to limit snow collection and in other cases, just insuring that there are no passengers or damage to chairs.

Also, patrollers, groomers and other mountain workers are out on the slopes long after and well before the resort is closed and would likely notice someone stranded on a chairlift. Please note, this does mean they'll see you if you are stuck in a tree well, lost in a more remote part of the resort or out in the side country.

As a note, clearwater also mentioned his ski patrol organization carried self evacuation gear.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 02:05 PM

To a big extent this hypothetical discussion is a bit silly. But for me it's raised one obvious practical outcome ...

I've got 200 feet of static line sitting in my garage. So I'm going to coil it and move it to my truck where it's accessible, along with a harness, some carabiners, some slings, and a rappel device. If you are going to get a job done - you need to use the RIGHT tools. Descending on fine diameter ropes is not a great idea. Now ... am I ever going to actually need to do this in a disaster? I really seriously doubt it. But it also makes no sense for the gear to be sitting in my garage collecting dust. I need to keep my SPOT satellite device with me too - I usually leave that at home (except when I am going on remote trips).

Pete #2
Posted by: comms

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 02:15 PM

Right. I think the thread has moved from What If's from the highly fictionalized movie Frozen, into a debate on the use of 550 cord as a rappelling device from a ski lift.

As many of us have said before, in a real world situation, 550 is a horrible way to self rescue and there are better ways to be prepared. Take the money you'd likely spend on hospital bills and buy a PLB. I'm a fan of ACR units. I own a SPOT2, DeLorme & SPOT have a combined unit out now to type out personalized text messages.
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 02:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Pete
To a big extent this hypothetical discussion is a bit silly. But for me it's raised one obvious practical outcome ...

I've got 200 feet of static line sitting in my garage. So I'm going to coil it and move it to my truck where it's accessible, along with a harness, some carabiners, some slings, and a rappel device. If you are going to get a job done - you need to use the RIGHT tools. Pete #2


You also need the RIGHT training...Rappelling mistakes are more often then not, unforgiving and here is a perfect and very timely example of the consquences when rapelling goes wrong.

No matter what, David Cicotello knew he had to survive. Cicotello, 57, was stranded on a ledge in No Man's Canyon, in the rugged wilderness some 180 miles southeast of Salt Lake City. His climbing partner — 70-year-old brother Louis — laid motionless on the ground 100 feet below, having fallen while rappelling.

By the second day, the brothers were in the North Fork of No Man's Canyon. They rappelled 40 feet to the ledge in a crevice. There was 100 feet to go to the canyon bottom. The plan: Eat lunch after rappelling down, then walk an old horse trail back to the rim.
Louis set an anchor and fed rope through a rappel ring. And then went over the ledge. Moments later, the rope whipped through the ring and disappeared. David called out to his brother; there was no reply.



Posted by: comms

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 02:30 PM

I went to Air Assault school in the Army which is all about rappelling, then used that in a few other Army courses. I've rappelled from cliffs, buildings and helicopters using the traditional technique, Hollywood and Aussie methods. I rock climbed for several years before and after as lead and belay but haven't been in a harness for over ten years.

Even with all that background, there is no way I would trust myself today to tie in, tie off correctly. I need a 'safety' to inspect what I do before going over the side. It's made me think of getting re-certified in rope work at a climbing gym just for my piece of mind.

I totally agree with Teslinhiker. With ropes, the RIGHT training is more important than just having the gear.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 03:47 PM

When you put that rope in your truck, pay close attention to its storage. Petroleum products and sunlight are just some of the agents that will degrade your rope over time. Dust,dirt, and the acids from concrete slabs are very unkind, as well. Most climbers and cavers store their ropes in a sturdy bag. Ones made specifically for that purpose are available.

It would be far better to keep the rope in a dark closet in your home and put it in your truck only when you use it, which should be reasonably often so that you will be proficient when you need it.

Rope manufacturers claim that climbing ropes stored under ideal conditions will still lose strength to an unsafe degree(obvious bias possible!). They may be right, so go ahead and use it.
Posted by: Alex

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 05:27 PM

The paracord rappelling was discussed on the forum many times. I was always arguing positively for that. Yes it's very dangerous but doable if you know what you are doing.

However since then I switched from paracord to a much better rope - the 3/16 Amsteel Blue. It's 10 times stronger and much more durable, also it's lighter than paracord (see the specs). I'm using it to hang my hammock in the woods all the time and it works very well. I have a 100ft piece in my camping/travel survival kit. Add a huge but lightweight aluminum carabinner, which you can find at some stores in form of a padded carrying handle (I've got mine at Kragen) and you can rappell much more safely. Add a 3/16 belay rack for easier descending control.
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 05:40 PM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
When you put that rope in your truck, pay close attention to its storage. Petroleum products and sunlight are just some of the agents that will degrade your rope over time. Dust,dirt, and the acids from concrete slabs are very unkind, as well. Most climbers and cavers store their ropes in a sturdy bag. Ones made specifically for that purpose are available.

It would be far better to keep the rope in a dark closet in your home and put it in your truck only when you use it, which should be reasonably often so that you will be proficient when you need it.

Rope manufacturers claim that climbing ropes stored under ideal conditions will still lose strength to an unsafe degree(obvious bias possible!). They may be right, so go ahead and use it.


Of note also, rope makers used to say retire a rope after 3 years
if no obvious damage, now at least one says 7 years. So you can
use carefully stored ropes longer if you haven't worn them out
from use-at least in some cases. Best check your rope's maker
for definitive info.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 05:52 PM

Teslinhiker ... I have the right training. Although it's probably a bit rusty and I should brush up my skills. Standard practice is to use 3 independent & solid anchors for attach points used for climbing and rapelling. That's the way I was always taught. It certainly doesn't hurt to have a second pair of eyes check your set-up ... people can screw up when they are stressed out or tired.

In my younger days there were a few times when I did rappels off anchors that did not meet the above standards. Generally it happened under marginal conditions, when we thought there was a pressing need to push on (typically bad weather approaching). It was scary. I would never go back to those extreme moments :-)

Pete #2
Posted by: Mark_M

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: ireckon
Originally Posted By: Mark_M
Or, assuming you have enough paracord, quadruple it up and twist to make a larger bundle, then do a leg wrap or dulfersitz for a controlled descent. Specifically, I'm thinking about the "Surviving Disaster" Towering Inferno episode (see Part 6).


Do you have a time code? Those videos are 42 minutes long.


Part 6 starts around 36 minutes.
Posted by: paramedicpete

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 06:02 PM

Quote:
Add a huge but lightweight aluminum carabinner, which you can find at some stores in form of a padded carrying handle (I've got mine at Kragen) and you can rappell much more safely.


This type of carabiner is not designed for load bearing weights approaching an average adult human, is not designed for rappelling and presents a major life safety hazard if you attempt to use it as such. Please, if you must insist upon having equipment for life safety conditions; invest in decent carabiner designed for climbing or rescue. A decent carabiner can be had for $8-15, please don’t skimp.

Pete
Posted by: Alex

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 06:23 PM

Pete. You are probably right. However the one I've got have the same or better thickness compared to those a saw at REI, and also a screw-on gate. But it much bigger than anything I saw in the climbing section, so you can really grab on it with one hand and use another to control the cord. Do you think the aluminum quality can be not as good?
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Alex
The paracord rappelling was discussed on the forum many times. I was always arguing positively for that. Yes it's very dangerous but doable if you know what you are doing.


Edited post to reflect the words "paracord rapelling".


I disagree on any types of paracord rapelling. The risks involved are not within my scope of acceptable limits.
Posted by: Alex

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 06:31 PM

Disagreed. Paracord rappelling is always very dangerous, regardless of any training.
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 06:33 PM

There are many aluminum alloy climbing carabiners available. Just stay away from the blacktop consumer versions and invest in quality and properly designed carabiners for climbing.


Posted by: ireckon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 06:35 PM

I should start a new thread because I've moved on to other things besides surviving a chairlift.

Originally Posted By: Mark_M
Originally Posted By: ireckon
Originally Posted By: Mark_M
Or, assuming you have enough paracord, quadruple it up and twist to make a larger bundle, then do a leg wrap or dulfersitz for a controlled descent. Specifically, I'm thinking about the "Surviving Disaster" Towering Inferno episode (see Part 6).


Do you have a time code? Those videos are 42 minutes long.


Part 6 starts around 36 minutes.


Interesting...I've never seen a Dulfersitz performed without a steep incline for the feet. I've never seen it done on a vertical building. What about the other methods of decent in the video, has anybody tried those for anything?
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Alex
The paracord rappelling was discussed on the forum many times. I was always arguing positively for that. Yes it's very dangerous but doable if you know what you are doing.

However since then I switched from paracord to a much better rope - the 3/16 Amsteel Blue. It's 10 times stronger and much more durable, also it's lighter than paracord (see the specs). I'm using it to hang my hammock in the woods all the time and it works very well. I have a 100ft piece in my camping/travel survival kit. Add a huge but lightweight aluminum carabinner, which you can find at some stores in form of a padded carrying handle (I've got mine at Kragen) and you can rappell much more safely. Add a 3/16 belay rack for easier descending control.


I heartily second parapete's comments about the ersatz carabiner and I would be very dubious about your choice of rope. Dyneema is very strong, but it is hard to knot and loses more strength in the knot than other fibers. It also degrades at temperatures as low as 150 degrees F ([u]On Rope[u], Smith and Padgett, pg. 26, 1996.) This is relevant because using a rappel rack like the one you reference can get very hot. I have sprayed water on my rig in midrappel and observed the water boiling away as it hit the rack. Dyneema and spectra make great climbing slings, but lousy climbing ropes.

There are better sources for climbing equipment than auto parts stores. They are called climbing stores.
Posted by: Alex

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 06:48 PM

Hmm. Thank you for the temperature limit heads up. But perhaps it's OK for a single use? Sure, the dedicated climbing gear is better, but IMO, it's overengineered to adhere to way too many safety regulations. So it's heavier, bulkier, and pricier than necessary to justify carrying it for a single emergency.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: ireckon


Interesting...I've never seen a Dulftersitz performed without a steep incline for the feet. I've never seen it done on a vertical building. What about the other methods of decent before the Dulfersitz, has anybody tried those for anything?


The Dsitz is the original alpine rappeling technique and was the only technique taught when I began climbing. As the video shows, you need only the rope (and a secure anchor) to use it. Back when it was in vogue, climbers regularly sewed leather patches on their pants and parkas to reduce the inevitable rope burns. There is a great classic photo from the 1950's showing a dsitz rappeler in mid rappel from The Maiden, a rock formation near Boulder which features a 120', overhanging free rappel. It works just fine if you are well padded.

Even today, the Dsitz is occasionally useful, especially when time is short and you don't want to bother with putting on a harness, etc. In my opinion, you are not well trained if you are not capable of using the dulfersitz.

A technique similar to the Dsitz is the French arm wrap rappel - stand with your back to the rope, twist the rope around both arms, and go. This is useful on fairly low angle slabs. The leg wrap technique comes from arborists and tree climbers, I believe. I don't think it would be very useful on rock - you want to have your legs free and mobile.
Posted by: TeacherRO

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 07:03 PM

First, do no harm. Rather than carry cordage not designed for that use, invest in safer and more reliable solutions; a bivy bag, cellphone charger, PLB, etc.

Me? Even if I skied 200 days a year I still wouldn't pack rope for that purpose. The cost to benefit is far too low. The odds are just plain unlikely.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 07:21 PM

Well, what is your life worth?

With respect to temperatures, the temps I achieved were with a single use. Failure of the rope due to heat would be accelerated when under load and the results could be very ugly.

Another point. Decent, purpose made climbing rope is versatile. You can do more than rappel on it. Sometimes you have to go up, or traverse sideways, or help a less practiced or proficient partner over a rough spot. A good rope can work well in all these situations, given that it is properly employed. This is yet another situation where knowledge is more important than the gear.
Posted by: njs

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/18/11 08:41 PM

Rappelling is inherently risky, given that you are committed to trusting yourself to an anchor, rope, rappel device and harness. To use anything less than equipment specially designed for the purpose is a bad idea.

Using para-cord for a rappel line is basically near suicidal since merely bouncing the weight of a typical adult male can generate forces way beyond the breaking strength of the cord. Not to mention the poor cut and abrasion resistance of the small diameter Nylon cord and the difficulty using such thin cord with any typical rappel device or technique.

All that being said, rappelling is not an inherently suicidal activity, climbers, cavers and others are not dropping to the ground to serious injury and death routinely, just occasionally.

In the instances that climbers do hit the ground during rapping it seems like anchor failure and going off the end of the rope are the two most common problems. Anchor failure is difficult to generalize about but going off the end of the rope is true user error and most easily prevented by tying knots in the rope ends.

Rappelling is not some mystical or arcane art form to be practiced a select few, nor is it such a specialize technical activity that only very highly trained elite people can do it successfully. It is a simple activity that needs some basic instruction and practice to understand. There are climbing schools, guides and clubs all over the country that can provide basic instruction.

Back, closer to the topic of self evacuation rappeling, it is possible to obtain, very light, compact functional gear. A good example is the Micro Rappel system from New England Rope Company.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/19/11 03:56 PM

njs ... great contribution. Looks like someone developed this idea and made it work. Brilliant! I've got to check this out. It'll probably turn out to be cost-prohibitive :-(
But New England Ropes is a very good company, so their product should be good. I emailed them to get a retail price - I'm mostly just curious (not sure I would really purchase it right now). I'll post if I get a reply.

Pete #2
Posted by: Brangdon

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/20/11 01:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Susan
People without functioning brains have a high propensity for dying. Let the ski lift people deal with the bodies next week.
Could you be more specific? Are you saying that everyone who gets on a ski lift without a PLB deserves to die?

Because that's pretty much everyone who goes skiing. They will be dressed for the conditions, but conditions will worsen at night. If you were on the ground you could find shelter, or make a snow-cave and maybe a fire, but on a lift you have no resources other than what you have on you. Getting stuck there probably won't happen, but if it does happen it'll probably be due to the lift operators not doing their job, which is outside of your control. It's not like you've gone skiing off piste.

Getting stuck there for five days is going to be a serious survival challenge. Even if you have water, there's a limit to what you can carry and still enjoy your skiing.
Posted by: comms

Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort - 03/20/11 11:31 PM

@Brangdon. I think Susan's comment, and she is welcome to respond one way or the other, was directed at the movie Frozen which the the OP was addressing and not people IRL (In Real Life).

If not familiar w/ how the 3 characters get stuck on a chairlift, they basically guilt each other into one last run down the mountain before a storm arrives, bribe a chairlift operator to let them go up and then are mistaken as coming down by another operator. Having watched the movie, one of the stuck characters and a ski lift operator are portrayed as not having functioning brains.