Crossing a small flooded river in winter

Scenario: Your only way home is your vehicle parked safely on high ground across a small river in a mixed oak and conifer forest. None of the trees near the river is more than 50 feet tall and most are much shorter.

The river has unexpectedly flooded to about 50 feet across, more than 15 feet deep in the middle, and is flowing faster than you can walk. Occasional large debris floats downstream, some hanging up on shore rocks.

You are alone.

Strategies that circumstances have forced you to reject: waiting it out, calling for help, hiking upstream, diverting the river, or using explosives [Blast].

You have 50 feet of paracord, and know how to make cordage from a wide variety of materials. You have your EDC and PSK, but no other camping or woodcraft tools.

What are the options you consider? Of those options, what do you try first?

I think I would try and build a raft, or better yet, a good boat, out of downed trees, etc. By the time I got it anywhere near finished, the river would have subsided to the point where I could safely walk across. Either that, or someone would have arrived on scene with resources (like a helicopter) that would offer some other, more feasible alternatives. Scouting up or down stream might offer some surprising options (although I realize you have ruled that out)

Real world situation, you get yourself comfortable and wait for better conditions. Been there, done that, and I have dealt with the consequences of the actions of those who, for whatever reason, felt they had to cross the river right away (one of these, evidently, was a gentleman who was missing the Super Bowl; we'll never know for sure because he drowned immediately).

There are few situations more deadly than dealing with flooded, rapidly running waterways. Patience, grasshopper; wait for better times.

By the way, even if I built my hypothetical raft to cross your hypothetical river, there is still a good chance I would drown my hypothetical @$$ in trying to cross.

STAY PUT!

Pete

No, I would immediately wade in, wrap the paracord around my neck, and drown or asphyxiate from the strength of the current.

No wait. Sit down, and whittle a canoe with my handy pocket knife...

dweste, if you build a scenario with only one option - cross the swollen river without any adequate preps - you don't foster creative solutions, you force folks to panic and die. Most rivers can be walked up to an easier ford, a convenient downed log spanning the flow etc. Or you can wait til the flow goes down, which many rivers do on a daily basis. But if the evil bad guys are hypothetically blocking your movement, you don't have any option do you? Survival is all about options if you ask me...

Stay put, stay dry, start a fire.

Fifty feet is no longer "small." Attempting to cross is suicide -- especially in winter.

Friends and I did a loop hike on Mt. Hood (near Lolo Pass) one warm July day -- starting up the mountain in the morning and coming off mid-afternoon. On the way back down we came to a small stream crossing we'd done a few hours earlier (when it was maybe 6 feet across). Using hiking poles, on the way up we had easily stepped across on a log that had been laid for a bridge.

In the intervening hours before we attempted to cross back over, glacial melt had swelled the stream to a deeper, raging, cold torrent. The log was no longer an option and so we waded in - water up to our hips. My dog (Samoyed) wouldn't go so I carried her. I faced upstream for the slow shuffle, stepping gingerly on the submerged river stones to get across, with a very narrow zone of balance keeping me from being swept backward.

That was just a small fraction of what you're talking about traversing and no way in heck I'd do it in winter -- unless the truck was a few feet away already running, heater on full-blast with towels and a change of clothes inside. I'd be hesitant to try that crossing again on a hot summer day.

Fast-flowing water is an incredibly powerful force.

Very implausible scenario...I cannot think of any valid reason (sane or insane) that would force me to contemplate crossing a river such as you have suggested.

Most river crossings are risky enough even at low water.

Attempting a river crossing(regardless of method used) in winter where the water and ambient temps may be in the freezing range is suicide. One fall into the river and without anyone to quickly rescue you, the ice cold water will immobilize your muscles within seconds..then you are a dead man/woman.

I dunno, the choices are so muddled --

Stay put, make shelter, start fire - be semi dry and warm and wait for the water to recede. Boredom may set in, but what the hey, I carry an MP3 with radio most of the time. Time to study for "Don't forget the Lyrics".

or

Make a raft of some type, using the guts of the paracord, then use the outside of the paracord to pendulum across (I'm thinking this was the answer the OP was looking for) and if everything works out and I don't die of hypothermia or drowning I get home in time for whatever was so freaking important I couldn't miss it. Except I can't think of anything that important that I would risk my life in what is an obviously a suicide attempt to cross cold rushing water in the winter.

Seems to me you learn when contemplating the extremes, maybe even the most unlikely, implausible circumstances. That is when your experience and creativity get the most complete workout.

It is very hard for me to imagine no one has faced this scenario in the real world, but puzzles do not have to be "verifiably realistic" to consider their solution.

I do not mind if folks decline to get on the hook, or, having tried it on for size, decide to wiggle off. I do not mind justifications for declining or wiggling off - each to their own.

As I thought through this scenario, which popped into my mind while watching flood waters at a local park, solutions were not immediately apparent to me. So of course I decided to share it with the ETS brain trust.

My thought / hope was that there were some swift water rescue folks that could share an idea or two that might come in handy someday.

Either you make some sort of raft using SAK, fire and paracord or you just take almost all your clothes and shoes off, throw it across the river to the other side, jump in* and swim like Thorpe to get there.
Staying put won't work because it is not an option in this game .

*Maybe it would be good to take a dip first so you won't be in shock when you plunge into the cold water later.

Many times, the best solution is to not cross the river in the circumstances you envisioned. For anyone who has done river crossings, has the experience and knowledge to seek out alternative locations that are much safer and easier. Case in point with a couple of my photos below which depict a river (in summer) but the same circumstances can apply in winter.

This first photo shows a river that is glacier fed (cold) not that wide but is flowing fast and dangerous. As you can see by the terrain and environment, there is nothing to aid you in making it across that river safely. You could try swimming it across and as you get swept downstream, you may be fortunate to reach the other side before the river heads further downhill and consequently gets more dangerous.



This second photo was taken ~ 1 mile upstream from the above photo. As you can see, the river flows through many small channels and is easily crossed here....even in high water. Many times people get too fixated on their immediate situation/area and do not stop to think and also look at their map (you do carry a map right?) for much easier and safer locations.

I am an active Swiftwater Technician and instructor, my advice remains unchanged: STAY PUT! Unless you want to become a body recovery, stay out of moving water.

Pete

Moving water is not a “game”, nor should it be treated as such. I have been involved in numerous rescues and body recoveries, where the individual(s) underestimated the power of moving water. Don’t attempt to enter moving water. Without the proper Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) and training, it is a recipe for death. Even with the proper PPE and training, it is highly risky.

Pete

Pete, all, we get that it is highly risky and that you do not want to find yourself in this situation. The question remains, if you do, what are your best strategies?

Is this like that Star Trek episode about the unwinnable battle scenario [Kobayashi Maru?] where the lesson is that sometimes the best you can do is die well?

Or is there a wily strategy or two that gives you prety good odds of survival?

I still think there are some Mensa members and candidates, engineers, math whizzes, and puzzle masters out there yet to chime in.

Ok, now that my esdeemed fellow forumite's have finished slamming your head against a wall, whilst yelling No! No! No! , lets actually look at the question shall we?

Right, first point is that 99% of the time they are entirely correct. However, for the purposes of this exercise I am going to assume that staying where you are is certain death.

So you have got to cross the river. One way or another. That means a raft, or more accuratly a floatation device that will permit you to keep your upper body out of the water. The two killers in this situation are drowning and hypothermia. If that water is cold then the latter is the greater threat, simply because getting chilled will incapacitate you extremely rapidly. At that point its a toss up between drowning and heart failure.
So what you do is:
Construct a bundle raft of the required boyancy.
Collect a lot of fire making materials. You will need these on the other side to rewarm yourself.
Strip to bare skin. Th only thing that you should have on is your boots.
As far as possible make a waterproof bundle of your clothes. I for one always have a plastic bag of some description in my pocket (had too many supermarket bags go south on me at exactly the wrong moment). Lash it to the raft. The more insulation you have under you the better.
Take the raft and your pole walk out quickly but carefully untill you reach a depth that allows you to float your raft. That should be no more than waist deep.
Climb on and push off. A quick prayer might be in order at this point. Something to the effect that "Lord I know I'm an idiot, but my Missus and Kids don't deserve to loose me."
Swim your raft at an angle to the current. There is no way that you will be able to swim directly across. Nore can you fight the current so you have to go with it and angle your way across. Don't worry about trees in the water. They and you are moving at the same speed. Don't try to rush across. Won't work and all you will do is exhaust yourself. Keep going untill you reach the other side. You will probably wind up someway down stream. If you succeed (you probably won't) then as soon as you exit the water, start a fire and rewarm youself.

I am going to repeat: THIS IS A TACTIC OF DESPERATION. THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA UNLESS YOU ARE LOOKING DEATH RIGHT IN THE EYE.

Ah, a well-reasoned response. I can think of a few more possible steps to enhance survival chances, and anticipate some from the brain trust.

I just want to echo PP's sentiments. I have had training and experience in swift water rescue and it is a very dangerous enterprise, even with training. During the time I was active in SAR in Tucson, drowning was just behind falls as the number one cause of fatal injuries in that area. In the worst case, we lost nine to drowning in one incident. This is in desert country!

Teslin's pictures beautifully illustrate the more rational alternative. It is an immutable Law of Nature that streams become smaller as you ascend them (eventually)....

The best wily strategy in this situation...considering you have the ability to contemplate crossing the river with only using the tools you have at your disposal then means you have the tools to stay put and to create shelter and fire. You can survive a lot longer this way and if by chance you do not, at least SAR has a much better chance at finding and recovering your body.

Not sure why you keep thinking and prodding for answers to a no win situation. Perhaps you need to expand upon your original post and explain why it is so important to cross that river...at any cost.

By "game" I meant this whole scenario. It is like a strategic game with very limited options. And staying put is not an option because you would break dweste's rules. I agree with everything you and other people said about staying put and danger of the crossing, but this time this is not about surviving in quite probable real world scenario but about surviving in a scenario where you have to cross the river or you will die. Therefore I called it a game.
For example you can imagine that a lava from nearby volcano is slowly closing in on you and you have to cross the river at this very place to escape.

In other words dweste forces us to think like McGyver - every possible idea counts.

On the other hand it's a good thing that you and others emphasize what should normally (in more probable scenario) be done, so when some less experienced people read it, they will get the warning.

At some point, like this one, the construction of scenarios loses its utility and becomes marginally productive. Mcgyver was a TV show, not a training film, right?

I'll let you know my solution when I have to deal with a raging river and a lava flow at the same time....In the movie, the lava flows into the river, drying it up, and I cross the now dry bed, discovering a diamond mine, winning the girl, the gold watch,and everything.

First thing that comes to my mind reading this is the Chattooga river (I go fishing there alot), which would most definitely be a suicide mission at flood stage. Even the shallow areas that used to be fords for the logging roads would be deadly at that point.

Even so, some sort of flotation is the only way. If possible, throw something attached to a rope to the other side and see if you can snag something. If so, and you hang on to that rope, the current will swing you to the other side rather quickly without you having to do any paddling.

"Thinking like McGyver" is just a metaphore. It has nothing to do with the TV show or movies and comparing it to real world situations.

Yeah, that's pretty good idea, at first I thought about that too but eventually rejected the idea. But it could work depending on the terrain and luck.

Hmm, having read thru the responses so far I am going with stay put or work my way upstream. Option 2 would be not get into this mess in the first place by being better prepared, including aware of weather and stream conditions.

I really can't imagine a set of circumstances / improbable events that would lead me to such a poor set of available choices.

In the spirit of "playing along" just to keep my McGyver credentials here are some all out acts of desperation that fit this overly contrived scenario. (note - many of these are about a realistic as the TV show was).

-Use my EDC/PSK to start a good fire at the base of several of the nearby large trees, causing them to fall and provide me a handy improv bridge to the other side.

-Similar to above but use fire as a signal. A 50' Pine makes a great signal fire. This might actually also force the issue about crossing the stream in a rapid fashion

- Staying in place is not an option but no other time constraint was listed so use my EDC/PSK and provided paracord to start building a pier / bridge to the other side. Drag good sized timber (limbs, trunks etc.) to the water and start pounding some posts in (there should be rocks or bigger chunks of wood around, right?) as far into the water as I can reach while staying dry. . Advance slowly to the other side by constructing a narrow walkway of branches supported by the posts. Might take a while and water will probably drop back down before I finish but at least I'm not just staying put.

Hmm - well I tried but the only reasonable answers seem to be stay put or don't get into this scenario.

- Eric

The average rescue throwline is around 7/16ths (11mm) and has a mean breaking strength of approximately 4450 lbs. Having been tethered in swiftwater before, I have my doubts that 550 cord (per scenario) will stand up to the stress.

Pete

Well put - wasn't this exactly the mistake that Chris McCandless (Into The Wild) made? He could have hiked upstream a short way and found a reasonable crossing, instead he retreated to his bus and his subsequent demise.

Interesting news item and video at http://outside-blog.away.com/blog/2010/08/hiker-dies-trekking-to-into-the-wild-bus.html - this year a tourist to the famous bus drowned at the same spot McCandless tried to cross...

Found a link about the safer crossing: http://www.gradesaver.com/into-the-wild/study-guide/section8/

Which is why the scenario rules that option out.

I recall that from the movie and depending on many variables, sometimes it is better to head upstream or head downstream where the lay of the land may level out and provide a safer location to cross, thusly enhancing your odds of living another day.

For example, in the photos I posted, the river eventually slows, narrows and shallows significantly (knee deep in winter) a few miles downstream on relatively easy hiking terrain at which time, a winter crossing of the river is a very viable option...Albeit there is always still some risk involved.

[quote=Teslinhiker][... sometimes it is better to head upstream or head downstream where the lay of the land may level out and provide a safer location to cross, thusly enhancing your odds of living another day. [quote=Teslinhiker]

One of the "outs" in the scenario was to only rule out going upstream.

Unless there is a reason for getting across that is worth your life, find another site or wait.

There are techniques for swimming rapids, but they are for survival situations when you can't avoid going into the water. Basically swim diagonally across the stream with the current. If you are not alone, the 550 cord might help; they can hold it while you swim and pull you back if you don't make it, then you pull them across. Again, in life or death situations.

Probably not, but since we're in MacGyver land here its worth a shot (he said something about making your own cordage too). Myself, I usually carry 7/64" amsteel instead of paracord (might not be as convenient as paracord, but its stronger

Stay put or find another way across

I've done a lot of fast water crossings, tethering, and floatings... Most of it in less than 4' of water and even at that depth it's enough to pull you away with ease, at 15' deep and 50' across you need a boat or a tight line going across and good upper body strength.

In as little as 2' fast moving water and a tether to another person becomes useless, once your footing (or grip) is lost you will pull the tethered person with you as you float down stream.

Being tethered to anything solid in fast moving water by yourself is extremely dangerous. You slip, and now you can't get your footing but your connected and now all the water is going around you as your body is held against rapid water movement... think of drowning in seconds. IMHO tethering requires 2 people minimum, ideally a higher elevation to tether too, thick rope, a knife with each person involved.

Tiny cord (550) is TERRIBLE for a tether. You are reliant upon it being hooked up / tied to you and you can not `pull it` to reposition safely. Thicker is not only better for strength but for gripping too.

A few years ago I was in some rapids in a concrete mixing container (large black tub about size of pickup bed) just to see how it handled the rapids, fast moving water, and just fun About half way through it was thrown about so much, and had taken on so much water it sank (I had a buoy tied to it on a long rope for retrieval). I had a life vest on and floated out of the fast water hanging on to the buoy.

15' deep.
50' across.
Fast water.

W/out a proper fast moving water craft or experience crossing water even a kayak, canoe, etc can be deadly.

An interesting problem.

In normal situations your best shot is to put off crossing and continue on until you come across a bridge, viable ford or a boat. In the highly unlikely situation where survival on this bank is essentially zero and for some reason there is no time to explore to find a more favorable crossing site (zombies and/or velociraptors?) there are ways to slant the odds more in your favor and improving upon the low odds 'jump in and swim like hell' strategy.

First thought would be to make a boat, actually more of a float. The classic field expedient float is an option that allows exploitation of a lot of materials common to a lot of locations. The basics of building the float come down to using any water resistant sheet goods wrapped around materials that float or that can maintain an air space.

In one version you use branches, vines, sticks, to form a 'doughnut', more of a large wreath. Your gear gets stuffed into the center. Then the assembly is wrapped in sheet goods you have at hand. Ponchos and tarps are good but a tent, ground cloth, rain-wear can also be used. If you have two tarps/ponchos use the best one for the bottom and lash over the top. Use the second over the top to help keep air in and splashed water out.

If you have sufficient volume with pack/s or floats you have or create the doughnut frame of light brush can be eliminated. You are going to have to be creative. Stuff sacks can be filled with grass, leaves or sticks to create a float. Same with the legs of a rain-suit. Canteens, water bags and other containers can be emptied Make sure you still have some water if the river water in undrinkable.

The idea is not to produce an actual boat but to manufacture a float that will be buoyant enough to keep most of your body out of the water for the duration of the crossing and stable enough that you can concentrate of paddling and avoiding any large debris coming at you instead of balancing.

The second technique that comes to mind is to 'dress for success' A cold-water rated dry suit with gloves, booties, mask, and fins would be ideal. A thick wet suit a second choice. And I'm quite sure everyone reading this carries one, and a spare, in their hip pocket at all times.

Two different thoughts come up. First is the 'go naked and fast' method. If you can get across fast this is an option. The idea is that whatever you wear is going to get heavy, wet, lose the ability to act as insulation if worn. If you go nude the clothing might be kept dry and you can bundle up once across.

The other way would be to try to create a field expedient dry or wet suit. Wool and fleece drain well and once drained they retain a fair amount of insulation value. A rain-suit might be tightened up to keep most of the water out temporarily and insulation underneath might stay dry. The down side here is air trapped in your pants might keep your head under water and any water that gets in will weigh you down which could make getting out of the water slower and more difficult. Time in the river has to be minimized.

Okay, you have your float and you are dressed for the dance. How are you going to get you and the float across the river? Two things that come to mind are paddling and using the differences in water flow around a bend and pendulum effect to propel you across. A paddle might be improvised with a flat piece of wood or a piece of sturdy cloth lashed to a forked piece of wood.

The pendulum effect uses a long piece of line tied upstream to the side you are on and the natural tendency of the raft, held against the flow to move toward the faster moving water, to get you across on a bend. This method is used by some commercial ferrymen in remote areas. They use the pendulum effect to go one way and winch back the line to go the other. I'd make sure there was a fast way of disconnecting the line if the pendulum gets you most of the way there and you need to paddle the last bit or if you are being overtaken by a large object caught in the flow.

I would also think about having some light gloves and shoes to prevent damage on rocks and debris when landing and fending off. Something that leaves my regular boots dry and something that won't fill with water and drag me down. Swim booties, and light but tough synthetic work gloves would be ideal but other gloves and tennis or camp shoes would work.

Assuming you make it across it would be a shame to expire having overcome such a major obstacle so some thought should be made to warming up once you are across. Keeping warm clothing and a sleeping bag dry would be a good first start. One of the advantages of going bare is you start drip-drying as soon as you get out of the water and you can essentially dive right into a sleeping bag.

Having a stove ready to go, materials for a fire handy, a tent ready might also help. A self-erecting tent might be ideal as it would keep the wind off as you break out the sleeping bag.

Hint: Like most advance techniques prior practice greatly improves performance, speed of construction and execution, and outcomes.

"It is very hard for me to imagine no one has faced this scenario in the real world..."

They did. They died.

It happens all the time, and is so tiresome that the media often doesn't even cover it.

Sue

Wearing boots in rapids is dangerous as they get trapped between
rocks and drown one right away.

Using a rope is another good way to die quickly, save the well
trained with lots of other gear.

Anything over knee deep and you should find another way across.

Maybe you could trick those velociraptors into trying to swim
across?

How about using your Vehicle(Hopefully-Large 4-WD) to Push/Drag Huge Boulders,Trees,Debris,etc. into the river.If The River is 15' deep x 50' across,Theoretically,It should be quite Shallow for the 1st 10' or so,I would concentrate my efforts to Fill it with Debris,To Lessen the depth/Allow Floating debris to Accumulate enough for a possible fording.Hopefully My Large 4-WD will have enough supplies for the Duration!The Bets Off,should I meet up with a Velociraptor or Close Cousin!

Of course you must use the current to get you across - you just cannot fight it and win.

Various ferrying scenarios keep you / float/ raft, pointed toward the bank you want to reach by way of a paddle / sweep pole, and the current will force you / float / raft to the other shore. Angle control and stability difficulties are easy to imagine.

How about this:

At the waters edge, by lashing, build a semi-rigid "pole" of roughly harvested trees longer than the river is wide. Use as few trees as you can to minimize the number of lashings. "Hinge" the pole solidly at the downstream end with whatever you have or make. Make yourself as buoyant as possible to insulate your core as much as you can. Push off on the upstream end of the pole and the current will rapidly "close the door" by pushing the upstream end of the pole across the river - where you better get off pretty quickly before the river destroys the "door."

This reminds me of an actual situation in Zion Nat'l Park earlier this year where two individuals fabricated a makeshift raft to use on a flooded stream in the park backcountry. End result?

They died....

Do you know why / how?

they built a raft and went for the ride of their life: story

I believe you just gave the producers of Man v. Wild an idea....Bear could make such a pole and vault over to the other side!!!

What TV show did you get this ill conceived idea from?

You have created a false situation where the only alternatives are bad ones. If you truly cannot go around the swollen river, the only safe alternative is to wait it out. Find a safe spot on higher ground where you can build a camp and wait.

Patience is your best asset in such a situation, although in the real world you will have other options.

Crossing a swollen river like you described by yourself is extremely dangerous, especially in the winter.

While I am sure this is a re-invention of the wheel, I plead guilty to believing I just thought it up.

It is an exercise in creative thinking. You know, like you might have to do in a survival situation if you run out of the more conservative alternatives.

If you think awful, "impossible" things cannot happen, or that what you have thought of up to now is all you'll ever need, then good for you and there is no need to play the game.

First step: Break out the map and look for bridges or other crossings. If you recall, Chris McCandless got stopped by the Teklanika River 1/4 mile from a tram across the river. Hike to crossing and walk back down other side.

Second step: If that doesn't work, hike upstream and look for less lethal places to cross. Next, go downstream and repeat.

Third step: Accept that you're not going to cross the river today and either make camp for the night, or head toward toward a road that doesn't require crossing the river. EDIT: Now would be a really good time to break out the cell phone

Save the "heroic" solutions for TV personalities. You don't get paid enough to get yourself killed off camera.

Good ideas, though not a scenario solution.

I'm sorry dweste. I just don't get the point of this. I guess I could try to imagine a scenario where my kid was stuck on the other side of that river, maybe sick or hurt, and my natural instinct for survival would come second to saving his life, but, even then, the laws of nature still rule. A dead mom can't help him.

If we're ignoring immutable laws of nature in this scenario, then why can't I use one of Harry Potter's spells to create something out of thin air to get me across? Or maybe we could disrupt gravity for a little while so I could float across?

I'm sorry. Crossing would be foolhardy so I'm not playing.

Think I'll use my mini belt hatchet to knock a bear unconscious and then use him, or her, as a raft which I'll guide with a hiking pole until the water gets too deep and then I'll use a titanium spork to paddle the rest of the way.

Or there's always the zip-line that I keep carabinered to my backpack.

If the river is 50 feet across i.e about 15 metres then diving to the centre of the river in your speedos (15 feet is deep enough) should be doable from a raised embankment or platform and should get you about 30-40 feet across before resurfacing. (if you can do a pool length 25m underwater) Your gear will be rolled up in your waterproof jacket tied to your one of your feet with the paracord. You should be able to get to the other side within about 30 seconds. You can then pull your bundle across once you have made it to the other side. Dry off and get clothed again (dry clothes wrapped in the waterproof bundle) and build an emergency fire to ward off potential hypothermia.

It won't be a very pleasant swim and could be potentially dangerous and life threating resulting in grim reaper deciding its your turn, but should be doable. As always practice will help.

Broughty Ferry Dook

Edit: Make sure that you bring your knife (around you neck) with you in case you have to cut the paracord if it gets snagged and is unrecoverable.

Sorry, this may apply in winter in some places, but in the northern half of North America it's foolhardy at best. Immersion in ice water shuts down the human body with frightening speed.

it seems the fellows that died in zion were would-be contestants:

Zion National Park (UT)
Two Rafters Drown In Virgin River

On Sunday, April 25th, rangers received a report of an overdue party from a float trip down though the Virgin River Narrows. Investigation revealed that two 23-year-old men from Las Vegas had hiked into the Narrows with the intent of constructing a log raft and floating approximately 50 miles through the Narrows to Hurricane, Utah. The men were not equipped with wetsuits or PFDs, did not have whitewater rafting experience, and had limited camping experience, little food and no overnight gear. They told their father that they intended to record their entire trip on video camera as an entry into the “Man vs. Wild” competition. The SAR operation concluded on April 26th when both bodies and a small amount of personal gear were recovered from the river.

ps: At the time, the north fork of the Virgin River was running about 250 cubic feet per second with water temperatures of 40 degrees.

The Broughty Ferry dook is in the River Tay in Scotland and the video was shot in January this year during a very cold winter spell, the water in the harbour was about 2 degrees Celsius.

If you have a Tarp, Basha or heavy duty Poncho to hand then you should be able to construct a coracle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coracle

Proof-of-concept test successful today.

A small payload wrapped with, but not sealed inside, a zip-lock bag was tied to the upstream end of two 10 foot long branched. The branches were overlapped 3 feet and lashed in three places along the overlap.

The downstream end of the lashed branches was tethered to a small bush. When the upstream end and payload were pushed into the current of a 12 foot ditch filled with fast flowing water, the current relatively rapidly swung the floating "pole" across to the other side, as the downstream end stayed in place and "hinged" on its tether to allow the door-closing effect.

It appears to me this is a relatively low energy, low risk strategy compared to swimming or rafting.

The lashing was probably disproportionately heavy compared to paracord and small trees. If I can find the right place to try this full-size in warm water I expect the strength of paracord lashings to become a problem.

you don't even need rope, all you need is to float downstream and stretch out an arm towards the bank you wish to reach

this of course need a suitable length of river, no twists/turns, and of course you want the banks to be low and not undercut, so you can stand up and get out easy

If I understand you correctly, this would expose you to river water for a much longer time - an outcome not desireable in a winter scenario.

By tethering the downstream end of the pole / door in the right place, hopefully you ride the "closing door" pole to the place of your choice on the other side of the river - near your vehicle in my scenario - relatively quickly. And if you successfully rig a small float/ raft to ride across you may not expose your core to the water much if at all. Then into your waiting vehicle with its winter kit of change of clothes, food, heater, etcetera.

'When the upstream end and payload were pushed into the current of a 12 foot ditch filled with fast flowing water, the current relatively rapidly swung the floating "pole" across to the other side, as the downstream end stayed in place and "hinged" on its tether to allow the door-closing effect.'

So how did you cut a 50' tree down with the contents of your PSK???

I did something like that when I was about 12, but I was the payload and I didn't use a tree. I tied a clothesline rope to some roots that were on the edge of river, the other end around my waist, and tried to get across the San Gabriel River (CA) in the water like Tarzan would swing from a tree. The riverbed was maybe about 5-6' deep in the center.

The force of the water swung me to the center of the river just fine, but there I stayed. It felt like the water coming down the river along the opposite side was trying to force me back to the original side, both sides pushing against each other, holding me in the middle -- I wasn't going anywhere but I remember the rope getting tighter. I called to my sister to pull the rope. I MEANT her to pull on it while it was still tied. No, she untied it and it was pulled out of her hands. So I went with the current down the river. The water was faster in the middle than it had looked from shore. Too fast to stand up or anything like it. I tried to float, but one foot got hooked on a branch or something and I spun around so I was going down headfirst instead of feet first. Then I slammed into a boulder and some big branches and came as close to being knocked out as ever in my life. Then a man grabbed my arm and dragged me up on the rock, gasping, choking, crying and trying to vomit. The nice Mexican man just patted my shoulder and said something in Spanish. He said it kindly, but he could have been saying I was an incredible idiot and he hoped his kids would never be that stupid.

Anyway, there is a difference between floating and being the anchor...

But I must say that you kept me entertained for almost four boring hours on I-5 last night! Thanks!

I thought of every survival scenario that could be on my side of your river, and compared each one to the dangers of crossing the river.

1. Avalanche. Die under the debris, or drown in the river under the debris? A: Try to get downhill ASAP and wait for the debris flow to settle. Maybe there was enough debris to fill the river and plug it, and I could walk across.

2. Blizzard. If I’m dry, it would seem that that would be an advantage over getting wet in a blizzard. A: Break off as many conifer branches as a I could and pile them over me.

3. Earthquake. There might be trees and moving debris coming down the river. Getting in the river could be like a really bad game of pinball. A: Wait and see if anything happens that could improve the situation.

4. Fire. Here, the river might be my friend. A: Sit/lie in the shallow edge of the river, away from the trees and hope the fire burns out/dies out really soon. If it jumps the river and sets my vehicle on fire with all my gear in it, I’m probably screwed anyway.

5. Thunder/lightning Storm. Visualizing being struck by lightning in the river doesn’t sound good. A: See #2 above, try to insulate against a lightning strike, too.

6. Flash flood. The water is getting higher, faster, and has more chunks of debris in it. A: WHAT options?

7. Hail. Getting brained in a torrent seems stupid. A: See #2 again, pile them up at the base of the biggest oak tree.

8. Heat wave. Over exerting is just begging for trouble. A: I’ve got shade and water, what more do I need? The other side is just as hot!

9. High winds. With my luck, I'd be blown downstream into those willow 'strainers' that catch and drown bodies. A: Look around for some large rocks or a soil mound and lie on the leeward side.

10. Freezing temps/ Ice Storm. Dying of hypothermia sounds bad. A: See #2 again, wait for the river to freeze, then walk across.

11. Volcano eruption. Lahars and lava roll down the rivers… and I want to be in the path of a 15-ft high mass of boiling mud, trees, boulders, vehicles and dead cows? A: Stay away from the trees. Maybe I should get religion...

12. Wild-animal rampage. A: Hide in the trees and maybe they will all run into the river and drown.

13. One of those really big power line towers falls and the wires are sparking and electrifying the river! A: Hmmm... do I have my cell phone? Can I call the power company and ask them to turn off the juice so I can use the tower as a bridge?

14. Ted Bundy’s psychotic twin brother is coming over the hill with a butcher knife in hand. A: HA! FINALLY! Someone to vent my frustrations on, and it could all be chalked up ‘self defense’! Leave him in the sun after killing him, let him start to ferment, and use him as a flotation device to cross the river!

Dweste, the problem with this scenario is that your river is the worst of the problems!

Sue

Boy, I guess the residents of ETS aren't in a play-along mood these days!

While I don't have a good answer to the problem, I think this one has the most promise:



Not that I think felling a tree with fire is a good approach, but it seems possible to find a tree tall enough and close enough to the river to provide a bridge.

Optimally located in a spot where the fallen tree would span, but not be *in* the river, lest the river take the tree while you are crossing.

The trick then becomes falling a 100' tree semi accurately and semi safely with what you have, which still is a fair quandry.

I suppose it would be *possible* with my RSK, but it would probably take a couple of weeks. :-)

-john

'When the upstream end and payload were pushed into the current of a 12 foot ditch filled with fast flowing water, the current relatively rapidly swung the floating "pole" across to the other side, as the downstream end stayed in place and "hinged" on its tether to allow the door-closing effect.' [Yes, it did.]

So how did you cut a 50' tree down with the contents of your PSK??? [Perhaps it was not as prominent as intended, but the pole is to be several tree trunks lashed together for length. I EDC in the woods a combo-knife that includes a substantial bi-directional saw blade. My PSK does include a small wire saw that might help things along also. It is more than sufficient to cut down and trim small diameter, but tall trees, plus the scenario mentioned riverside debris that might include suitable pole material. The scenario said you had 50 feet of paracord plus the skill to make cordage, which would permit lashings.]

I did something like that when I was about 12, but I was the payload and I didn't use a tree. ... Anyway, there is a difference between floating and being the anchor... [Your adventure is significantly different than the solution suggested. The current leverages the pole against the pivot so current pushed it goes all the way across. You want to stay on the upstream side of the pole, I think.]

But I must say that you kept me entertained for almost four boring hours on I-5 last night! Thanks! [Welcome!]

I thought of every survival scenario that could be on my side of your river, and compared each one to the dangers of crossing the river.

.. Dweste, the problem with this scenario is that your river is the worst of the problems!

[What kind of wimpy scenario would it be if there was a clear, easy solution? And yes, the scenario solution must significantly reduce the threats of the river, even turn the river to your advantage. As much as possible tilt the odds in your favor of getting across relatively quickly to reduce exposure to river risks. I just made crossing the river a condition of the scenario because that is what I was interested in.]

[I appreciate your post as always, Sue. Maybe this one will spark another?]

Sounds like something my little sister would have done, thereby inheriting my Barbie collection.

[Oops! Dagny, you shared that Barbie thing that with your outside keyboarding!]

"The current leverages the pole against the pivot so current pushed it goes all the way across. You want to stay on the upstream side of the pole, I think."

I still think there's something wrong with your suggestion (nothing personal!)... I am not a good swimmer, and have a past history of nearly killing myself in water (not necessarily by drowning ), so maybe I am wary of scenarios like this, to the point of paranoia.

Here's what would probably happen to me:

First, I wait until you cut down and bundle your trees, waiting behind a rock to see what you've got in your PSK. When you're ready to try the Grand Experiment, I rush out and bash you in the head (unconscious, not dead) with a rock, and then hijack your tree. I also steal your PSK and your saw. And I found a plastic bag in your pocket.

I heard you talking to yourself about the upriver side being the best way to get across, and I figure you're probably right.

So I take off all my clothes and stuff them into your plastic bag and tie it closed with one of your shoelaces.

I walk into the river (BRRRRR!) beside the tree trunk on the upstream side, instantly losing all sensation in my feet except for pain. I wade out, gripping the branches and then the power of the rushing water hits me and knocks my feet out from under me (I can't feel them, but I've lost what was propping me up). I am suddenly on my back, still gripping a tree limb, and the force of the water is dragging the loose object (me) UNDER the tree. My death grip on my tree branch continues, even past the time the branch breaks. A dead branch on the under side catches me in the nostril and rips off my nose (can't feel it much, it's numb, too), and I get caught among other branches, held under the water. Remember the 3-minute rule?

The next day, my sister reports me missing and they find my truck and Dweste rummaging through it.

They find my cold, blue, dead, fish-nibbled, naked body downstream.

Then they go back upstream, handcuff Dweste and Mirandize him, accusing him of my murder, asking why he chopped off my nose.

How's that? I tried to cross your river and I'm STILL dead!

Now, had I stayed behind my rock and let YOU try to cross the river, I would have had a ringside seat to your poor decision, and believe me, I would NOT have done the same.

When the rescue people came, attracted by my signal fire, I would be happily living in my nest of conifer branches, cooking fish and freshly-dead animals that were washed downstream.

And since all traces of YOU would have vanished, all I would have gotten was a pat on my back on how smart I was not trying to cross the river.

Sue

sue, you really crack me up.

You would have seen me on my float / raft at the very upstream tip of the pole. I would push out the pole. The current would propel the pole away from me and I would float along behind the pole, using my legs to brace the float / raft upstream of the pole if necessary. I would ride this way as the upstream end of the pole swung across the river, where I would clamber out.

I would then free my end of the pole if the current had not already done so. The pole would then swing back to you, the tethered end now the upstream end. If you wanted you could make your own raft / float, then tether the downstream end, push the upstream end into the current, and duplicate my trip.

Of course, except for the few small scale tests I did, all of which appeared to be successful in proving the concept, there has been no full-scale, real world test of this method of river crossing. Probably there are some details to work out. I suspect you may want to make your raft / float integral with the upstream end of the pole, for example. A friend is intrigued and we will give it a try in stages during the warm months of 2011 in a relatively controlled and benign setting.

Glad you are staying current with the subject. This would also apply to the downed power lines thread.

Yup. Funeral details. Is this still ETS Forums, the place where we dissect accidents like this while loved ones are planting the guy that just had to cross the river? We're supposed to be the smarter ones, no?

Very well said, Bacpacjac. When we were out on on a hike a couple of days ago along a river, I stopped beside the river more then once and thought about this thread and how attempting to cross this particular river in most places would be a life ending event...

Doubt before proof is sound science; I share it.

The rest of this fortune-telling would be convincing if you made your living winning games of chance.

Beyond that, I think the best place for negativity is in batteries.

We await your summer testing with bated breath, O Great One!

And make sure someone has a video camera on a tripot secured in the optimum spot.

Two video cameras would be even better.

Sue

Sue

We have a flood-stage river in the middle of winter, and no purpose-made equipment. I'm in Idaho, so I'm going to assume conditions similar to those we have here. I'll figure air temps in the 30's, water temps also in the 30's. Swimming in swiftwater is much more challenging than most people realize. You don't simply swim across. Currents will move you downstream very quickly, and the current is much swifter in the middle of the river than along the banks. The current tends to push you toward the middle of the river, away from either side. Punching into an eddy when you're swimming is tough, even with proper equipment and flotation. It's even harder in cold water - it saps your strength very quickly, even with a wetsuit. The water is also cold enough that you would die from hypothermia very quickly even if you did successfully swim across. Swimming is out of the picture completely.

However, given the proposed scenario, it seems reasonable that you originally waded through the river to reach THIS side. So the normal depth of the river would be 1-2 feet, and not much more than 10-15 ft across - or what the heck were you doing walking across this river the first time? This means there should be trees growing out to the previous banks of the river from either side. I see one possible option to cross this river without getting wet. I carry a small saw in my PSK. I'd start downing trees along the current banks, which would rapidly get tangled up in other growth. If I cut down enough trees, I may be lucky enough to get a few tangled across the river in such a way that it's stable enough to walk/crawl across.

The downsides to this option that I see: risk of falling in - hypothermia, entrapment, death. Risk that a large piece of debris comes through, and shatters the 'bridge' and potentially me - wasted time, serious injury, death. Time consuming, I'll be clear-cutting the bank for hours, potentially days. Whatever is forcing me to cross this river is unlikely to take THAT long.

Even though this option seems to have a chance at getting me across the river alive, can't think of any possible situation in which this would be an effective option for crossing the river, and in which waiting until the river subsides is not an option.

For those suggesting using an upstream angle to ferry yourself across: dream on. Michael Phelps in 50+ degree water, maybe. Average person, no. In serious water, you're either swimming hard for the nearest shore, or trying to survive obstacles. If you try to maintain an upstream ferry angle, all you accomplish is to slow your cross-river speed. Your few miles an hour of upstream velocity are negated by far by the speed of the water carrying you downstream. The loss of cross-river speed from trying to maintain a ferry angle means the force of the current pushing you back toward the center of the river will overwhelm you. You'll be swimming as hard as you can upstream, and all you're accomplishing is wearing yourself out. Ferrying works much better for boats than it does for swimmers.

After alot of thought of All the posts,I thought about a Trebauchet,Make one of those & Shoot yourself across! 5 Before 12, HAPPY NEW YEAR!

For reasons only partially understood, I decided to briefly cruise the net for booms and swiftwater rescue. I found the use of inflated, nearly rigid fire-hose-type devices being hyped.

There were not a lot of written details but pictures and diagrams clearly showed lengths of inflated fire hose being fed straight out to victims in still water, and being fed upstream to drift down to victims in moving water, among others. One diagram even shows tethering the hose upstream to a tree and using what they call the pendulum effect and guide ropes on a mechanical truck boom over the water to let the current take the hose to a victim.

I did not find any river-crossing mentions, nor the idea of having a rescuer ride the end of the inflated fire hose as the current pendulumed it out.

Sounds a bit like a high-tech "pole" to me.

You all need to take a Swiftwtare Rescue Class before discussing things you really do not understand or take snippets from things you read on the web and try to theorize how you would implement them in armchair scenarios. Even if attending such classes are not feasible, try contacting your local Swiftwater Rescue Team and see if you could watch them train. They might even be willing to try a few of your ideas under controlled conditions.

Our team brainstorms all of the time and we do try various new ideas and techniques for rescue situations all of the time, but we have the basic background in water hydraulics, rescue training, equipment and sufficient safety factors to mitigate most of the risk. Before all training activities, we do a risk/benefit analysis and if we feel we will lean something from taking minimal risk, we will try it out. Our experiences have been that most of tested methodologies still are the best, but are willing to examine new ideas.

Pete

Good advice, Pete.

I did white water kayaking in New England years ago, had swiftwater rescue training, and was on safety crews working Olympic qualifying kayak races. I have seen whitewater canoes and kayaks wrapped around rocks and trapped submerged in various hydro features. The power of swiftly flowing water is relentless, overwhelming, and unbelievable until you experience it.

I have decades of solo and group trekking where the fording of small but swift melt-water streams and rivers are forded singly and using group shuffle methods. Occasionally we would construct rope bridges.

I have intentionally and unintentionally swum-floated through shallow and deep rapids, it generally scared the everloving out of me until the river depositied me in to a friendly eddy or pool. I have been rolled downstream in less than 2 feet of water trying hard to get up or out.

By choice you would not cross a flooding river of any size except by bridge. A multi-person crew using tension diagonal lines [TDLs] and mountaineering-grade lines and hardware very carefully tackles such situations for training and rescue.

My scenario, however, is an alone-in-the-woods with no-choice-but-to-cross poser intended to harvest bright new thoughts.

Hey Pete, do you feel that ferrying is effective for swimming in situations like this?

I must admit to no SWR training - I plan on rectifying that this summer. However, the statement you quoted was taken from experience. I haven't found an upstream ferry angle effective in getting me out of danger while swimming in class III-IV whitewater. Even in my kayak and assisting a swimmer to an eddy, I found the added drag of a swimmer rendered ferrying less effective than paddling straight toward shore. Would you disagree?

Yes



I would disagree

While not from the specific curriculum we utilize, it is close enough-

From Water Rescue Techniques




We normally train on the Potomac River. When the water levels are low and for classes we normally use the Whitewater Course at the Dickerson Power plant. Everyone is required to travel down the flume to the outwash area, where we conduct most of the training (to try and stay out of the way of the kayakers). This web site has most of the flume, with around minute 3:25 to 3:31 showing where we conduct most of the training. Everyone is required to perform self-rescue/aggressive swimming across the outwash area using ferrying techniques.

Dickerson Whitewater Course


Pete