Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle

Posted by: dweste

Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 05:07 AM

Whether stuck in traffic or because of breakdown, there will be times you want to generate heat inside your vehicle. The car heater may work if the engine runs and you have gas, but is this the best and safest way to go? Are there alternate technologies with advantages?

Thoughts?

Thanks.
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 06:13 AM

I prefer a really hot blonde ... oops, sorry; what was I thinking? lol In all seriousness though, shared body heat under blankets, heat sheets, a sleeping bag (you did pack something, right?) is a great survival technique. Rover counts too.

Running the engine is OK if you've got gas to spare AND the exhaust pipe is clear. If you're caught in a snowstorm, there's the chance that the exhaust could be going into the vehicle. In terms of the whole good/bad thing, that would be bad.

Otherwise, maybe if you had a little camp stove, camp heater, or flame based lantern, AND you could crack a window, but carbon monoxide is always a major danger.

HJ
Posted by: CANOEDOGS

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 06:25 AM

i just added a propane stove to my car's break down gear.yes i know about fumes,thank you.every winter i tell myself when we get a sub-zero evening i'm going out and sit in the car with using the supply's i have and see how long i last.the plan is to string a rope thru the front of the back windows and hang a old blanket from that to cut down on the space i would need to heat and get into a mummy bag up to my arm pits and put on a old down parka.some heaters to try out would be a candle lamp and single burner propane stove.i can see two types of situations,one a sit and wait for help and second an attempt to free a stuck car which would involve outside work and then back in for warmth and meals.
Posted by: MostlyHarmless

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 08:38 AM

I would think the best solution is to invest in a car heater that doesn't require the engine to run. They exist, but require electrical power from the battery to power the fan. But according to Webasto, they're really designed to heat your cold car for a short period of time, not keep it warm for long periods. Except that the fan will eventually drain the battery I see no reasons why you can't run a Webasto system for hours and hours. Not actually having tried this - except in a military vehicle years ago - I would ask someone with actual practical experience. Not cheap, though.


Pure propane canisters is probably a good solution. They're heavy steel containers, probably a lot less fragile than propane/buthane containers. And the performance in low temperatures is very much better than propane/butane stoves.

The dangers of fumes (co poisoning) is nothing a little ventilation can't solve. Open the window ever so slightly and close the excessive hole with a towel.



About propane/butane canistersThey're really too fragile for long term bumping around in the trunk. You need to solve that problem, which really shouldn't be too hard.


And propane/butane canisters aren't really well suited for cold. They work well if your vehicle inside isn't really that cold, i.e. you need to fire them up to keep it reasonably comfortable. Try firing them up at temperature below freezing and you're in for an unpleasant experience. My pyromanic practice of feeding liquid propane/butane to a stove with pre-heating loop is not really for the faint at heart, but it improves the performance in low temperatures.


Posted by: Tjin

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 10:18 AM

Originally Posted By: MostlyHarmless
I would think the best solution is to invest in a car heater that doesn't require the engine to run. They exist, but require electrical power from the battery to power the fan. But according to Webasto, they're really designed to heat your cold car for a short period of time, not keep it warm for long periods. Except that the fan will eventually drain the battery I see no reasons why you can't run a Webasto system for hours and hours. Not actually having tried this - except in a military vehicle years ago - I would ask someone with actual practical experience. Not cheap, though.



When i was working for the fire department, they had heaters designed to run on diesel and a small electric fan on a secondary battery. They would run all winter long in emergency vehicles that where not parked in a garage.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 10:24 AM

I keep a sleeping bag in the vehicle for these occasions, as well as emergency rations, a small stove and the makings for hot drinks. A bag appropriate for conditions is all that is required.

I am cautious about CO - ventilation is all you need, but how much can be problematical. I had one experience where I thought ventilation was adequate - Surprise! - I was wrong (not vehicle related, by the way). CO can be very insidious.
Posted by: MostlyHarmless

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 10:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Tjin

When i was working for the fire department, they had heaters designed to run on diesel and a small electric fan on a secondary battery. They would run all winter long in emergency vehicles that where not parked in a garage.


Of course - a secondary battery is the obvious solution.

I am pretty sure that the limit of 60 minutes operating time on Webasto's web site is to prevent the primary battery from being drained. Without this limit, lots and lots of Webasto customers would find their car battery depleted half through the winter. It doesn't help if the car is warm inside if the engine won't start. Such incidents would be bad for Webasto business. Doesn't apply for our scenario, though.
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 12:07 PM

I use a portable catalytic heater (Coleman) in the bathroom for a space heater (lots of ventilation)... I noticed that Coleman has a couple of models that are vertical, and you could probably heat water for coffee/soup/cocoa on them... they claim 1500 BTU, 14 hours on a 1# propane cylinder with the normal warning for ventilation and carbon monoxide
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 12:55 PM

"Mr. Buddy" heater is an option. Designed for interior use. I bought one for my teardrop trailer but haven't used it. Runs on propane canisters. Should crack a window when using it. Available at Cabela's, Amazon, etc.

This system automatically shuts off if oxygen falls below a safe level, or if the heater tips over. It uses a 1-lb. propane cylinder for three- to six-hours of heating time.


I wonder if the 120-hour candles would generate enough heat to warrant the smoke.

Also I posted in the ongoing "winter car kit" thread about Reflectix. It's a cheap, extremely lightweight, easily portable means of insulating the window openings and keeping whatever heat is generated inside the vehicle. Here's my post from the other thread:

Going through camping gear this weekend I came upon a roll of Reflectix insulation that I'd cut in pieces to fit in the rear and side windows of my Honda Element. That is a popular and cheap method for warmth and privacy on the Element forum among those of us who have slept in our Elements on camping trips. The pieces roll up quite compactly and have been durable. The pieces, cut with scissors (not with precision) fit neatly in the windows, with light pressure.

A 24" by 25' roll took care of my rear and side windows with about half the roll left over (which I've used to envelop my cooler on hot days). For the windshield I use the sunshield that I carry all the time.

Am thinking that for winter road trips, especially with snow in the forecast, it would be wise to throw the Reflectix in the car. It cuts down markedly on drafts. Can't see out of it but I've always left the driver and passenger doors uncovered (and cracked for air) and the Reflectix still makes a notable difference in the rear.

$23

http://www.homedepot.com/Reflectix/h_d1/...catalogId=10053

Posted by: rebwa

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 01:17 PM

Would a Carbon Monoxide Detector like those in RV's and boats be a good idea if using outside heat sources?

What about something like this?

http://www.rvtruckparts.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=44230&SID=90&DID=192&CID=477
Posted by: ponder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 01:23 PM

If you would like to be alive in several days, I would recommend that you stay warm with heavy clothes and an extreme cold sleeping bag. The second day of immobility without exercise, you will get very cold.

A stack of 120 hr candles will provide the comfort of light and warm drink.
Posted by: billvann

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 01:30 PM

He puts the Reflectix only on the windows? It makes sense that the windows would be the place where you'd lose the most heat but I never would of thought of selectively insulating the vehicle. Clever. That plus the rope between windows to cut the space in half would really create a space that can be heated with whatever source you have for twice as long.

And if you have Reflectix or a reflective windshield screen you can lay on top of it to prevent heat loss where your body contacts the car. Even though the seats are insulated, the Reflectix would bounce the heat back to you. Add a space blanket and your body heat alone would last longer.

Add a heat souce such as candle or the propane catalytic heater, or even periodically running your engine (assuming you clear the tail pipe and have enough gas and battery. Be careful to ration your gas and battery. They can be used with foam from a car seat to make a black smoke fire to attract SAR searchers.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 02:04 PM

Originally Posted By: rebwa
Would a Carbon Monoxide Detector like those in RV's and boats be a good idea if using outside heat sources


They would, in theory. But you are adding complexity to the system, which is not a good thing.

I regard the car interior as the same thing as the interior of my winter tent. I don't need to heat the interior of the tent, why bother with that of the car? I simply need to keep that little sliver of air around my tender pink body at a comfortable temperature.

This is a pretty good situation for using MREs,along with their flameless heaters. I have never used one of these heaters, but I imagine they would take the sting off, once they have accomplished their task of preparing your hot meal, along with the indispensable nice cup of tea.
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 02:08 PM

Originally Posted By: rebwa
Would a Carbon Monoxide Detector like those in RV's and boats be a good idea if using outside heat sources?

What about something like this?

http://www.rvtruckparts.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=44230&SID=90&DID=192&CID=477


That would be very wise and is highly recommended in the teardrop trailer community.

Thanks for bringing that up.



Posted by: Themalemutekid

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 02:17 PM

I keep warm blankets & a Jetboil with an assortment of "just add water" type drink mixes & meals in my Jeep. I also always have at least 2.5 gallons of water in my SCEPTER GI RUNT for drinking & the Jetboil as well as extra wool caps, gloves, etc. I think I'm well covered if I'm ever stuck in bad weather somewhere.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 02:20 PM

I'm with Ponder on this. My winter kit includes wool, wool, more wool and a good sleeping bag with a fleece liner . . Depending on the size of the vehicle it could take a substantial amount of energy to keep the inside warm enough. So my thoughts are to not create heat inside the vehicle as much as to keep the 98.6 inside my body.

I've got lithium batteries and LED lights for light. I switched to 123A batteries in the car because the LED road flares I have run on them . . so I standardized on 123A batteries for the truck.

If I'm in serious trouble, I'll just activate my PLB.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
. . . I regard the car interior as the same thing as the interior of my winter tent. I don't need to heat the interior of the tent, why bother with that of the car? I simply need to keep that little sliver of air around my tender pink body at a comfortable temperature.

This is a pretty good situation for using MREs,along with their flameless heaters. I have never used one of these heaters, but I imagine they would take the sting off, once they have accomplished their task of preparing your hot meal, along with the indispensable nice cup of tea.
Agree with the tent analogy and the use of MRE's. I have food in the truck kit but MRE's might be better for winter. Thanks.
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: billvann
He puts the Reflectix only on the windows? It makes sense that the windows would be the place where you'd lose the most heat but I never would of thought of selectively insulating the vehicle. Clever. That plus the rope between windows to cut the space in half would really create a space that can be heated with whatever source you have for twice as long.

And if you have Reflectix or a reflective windshield screen you can lay on top of it to prevent heat loss where your body contacts the car. Even though the seats are insulated, the Reflectix would bounce the heat back to you. Add a space blanket and your body heat alone would last longer.

Add a heat souce such as candle or the propane catalytic heater, or even periodically running your engine (assuming you clear the tail pipe and have enough gas and battery. Be careful to ration your gas and battery. They can be used with foam from a car seat to make a black smoke fire to attract SAR searchers.


Yes, I, and many other Honda Element owners, just cover the windows with Reflectix. Just cut each piece (scissors are sufficient) a half inch or so larger than each window and they stay in place after you apply light pressure to them in the corners and along the edges. They roll up quite compactly. I already keep a sunshade in the car at all times but for winter-survival would be good to augment with Reflectix there, as well.

I've woken up in the morning (30s-40s temps) in the back of the Element, pulled the Reflectix off the rear windows and been struck by the instant draft that comes in.

Some Element folks have used Reflectix below their sleeping pads if camping in extremely cold weather. Also have a Reflectix piece for your sunroof if you have one. It can be held in place with Velcro or temporarily with duct tape, I suppose.

My loosely rolled Reflectix pieces measure 7"x18." Rolled it tighter and got it to 6.5" diameter. This excludes pieces for the driver and passenger windows. I leave those uncovered when camping.

This photo below shows one of the Element's suicide doors. As you can see, my cut was pretty sloppy, that piece could be smaller. This is the first time my photos have not displayed in the post. Is that a forum formatting change? Or must I have done something differently in posting the pics?
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
Originally Posted By: rebwa
Would a Carbon Monoxide Detector like those in RV's and boats be a good idea if using outside heat sources


They would, in theory. But you are adding complexity to the system, which is not a good thing.

I regard the car interior as the same thing as the interior of my winter tent. I don't need to heat the interior of the tent, why bother with that of the car? I simply need to keep that little sliver of air around my tender pink body at a comfortable temperature.

This is a pretty good situation for using MREs,along with their flameless heaters. I have never used one of these heaters, but I imagine they would take the sting off, once they have accomplished their task of preparing your hot meal, along with the indispensable nice cup of tea.



If you have your family or friends in the car and don't have sleeping bags in the car for everyone, they may appreciate the entire car being warmed.

These winter car survival discussions always make me think of the James Kim family's ordeal in 2006.



Posted by: rebwa

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Dagny
Originally Posted By: billvann
He puts the Reflectix only on the windows? It makes sense that the windows would be the place where you'd lose the most heat but I never would of thought of selectively insulating the vehicle. Clever. That plus the rope between windows to cut the space in half would really create a space that can be heated with whatever source you have for twice as long.

And if you have Reflectix or a reflective windshield screen you can lay on top of it to prevent heat loss where your body contacts the car. Even though the seats are insulated, the Reflectix would bounce the heat back to you. Add a space blanket and your body heat alone would last longer.

Add a heat souce such as candle or the propane catalytic heater, or even periodically running your engine (assuming you clear the tail pipe and have enough gas and battery. Be careful to ration your gas and battery. They can be used with foam from a car seat to make a black smoke fire to attract SAR searchers.


Yes, I, and many other Honda Element owners, just cover the windows with Reflectix. Just cut each piece (scissors are sufficient) a half inch or so larger than each window and they stay in place after you apply light pressure to them in the corners and along the edges. They roll up quite compactly. I already keep a sunshade in the car at all times but for winter-survival would be good to augent with Reflectix there, too.

I've woken up in the morning (30s-40s temps) in the back of the Element, pulled the Reflectix off the rear windows and been struck by the instant draft that comes in.

Some Element folks have used Reflectix below their sleeping pads if camping in extremely cold weather. Also have a Reflectix piece for your sunroof if you have one. It can be held in place with Velcro or temporarily with duct tape, I suppose.

My loosely rolled Reflectix pieces measure 7"x18." Rolled it tighter and got it to 6.5" diameter. This excludes pieces for the driver and passenger windows. I leave those uncovered when camping.

This photo below shows one of the Element's suicide doors. As you can see, my cut was pretty sloppy, that piece could be smaller. This is the first time my photos have not displayed in the post. Is that a forum formatting change? Or must I have done something differently in posting the pics?


Thanks for the pics, I think I'm going to get some and make coverings for the glass on my SUV. I also carry a couple of these which might be good under sleeping pads and bags.

http://www.rei.com/product/407106#pr-header-407106

I had to chuckle with the "remove before driving" instructions on the sunshade in the pic!
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 02:59 PM

Originally Posted By: rebwa


I had to chuckle with the "remove before driving" instructions on the sunshade in the pic!



LOL! I hadn't noticed that before. Guess I must've been removing it before driving.

Call me Einstein.
Posted by: rebwa

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
Originally Posted By: rebwa
Would a Carbon Monoxide Detector like those in RV's and boats be a good idea if using outside heat sources


They would, in theory. But you are adding complexity to the system, which is not a good thing.

.


A battery operated Carbon Monoxide Detector wouldn't do anything to the vehicle's wiring system.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 03:27 PM

A 1.9 litre Klean Kanteen of boiling water, will contain approximately 798KJ of heat energy. You can boil the water outside the vehicle with a propane stove or fire. Assuming the Klean Canteen is partially insulated i.e. a neoprene insulated cover etc, and the water bottle releases the heat over 30 minutes before getting cold, this will average approx a 400W space heater for 30 minutes. This will of course provide plenty of liquids for hydration also throughout the night. A lb Coleman Propane bottle/stove and high efficiency kettle would bring to boil around 30-40 litres of water. If adequate ventilation is provided then a Propane or Butane/propane mix Lantern might keep a vehicle warm throughout the night. Vehicles are notorious for being poorly insulated as with any metal box sitting in the snow.

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemanco...1010&brand=

Along with a sleeping bag such as a British Army 58 Pattern, I also will take along some British Army Bivi Trousers and Jacket as it can be quite chilly answering the call of nature in the middle of the night especially with the temperatures getting down to -15C to -20C recently.

BTW would anyone consider sleeping outside the vehicle using a self inflating mat and Goretex bivi bag. Getting some sleep is always a lot easier lying stretched out rather than in a reclined vehicle seat even after attempting to keep the vehicle interior warm.

Posted by: clearwater

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 03:54 PM

Anyone tried this?

It is combustion, wouldn't CO be a concern with it?

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-a-survival-heater-for-your-car/
Posted by: Paul810

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor


BTW would anyone consider sleeping outside the vehicle using a self inflating mat and Goretex bivi bag. Getting some sleep is always a lot easier lying stretched out rather than in a reclined vehicle seat even after attempting to keep the vehicle interior warm.



This is where having an SUV comes in handy. If I fold the back seats flat I've got a bit over 6' of flat area to lay on. With an air mattress and a sleeping bag it's a perfect place to catch a few winks. grin
Posted by: rebwa

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 04:23 PM

While not directly heating the vehicle, the hand, toe and body warmers work pretty darn well and last for quite a while. I always carry a good assortment of them in the winter vehicle kit.
Posted by: Andy

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 04:37 PM

Although I keep blankets, Heatsheets and a sleeping bag in my car, I think I might rely on my car's heated seats. My current car has 3 levels of heat for the front seats. The highest one is pretty toasty. I don't know what current draw is but I suspect on the lowest setting I could get more than a few hours of continuous warmth, probably much more with intermitten use and the occasional running of the car engine to boost the battery. I will have to check to see if they work with the engine off, but the battery on. Combined with blankets and warm clothes I think I'd be set.

My best plan is to stay home. I'm now old enough and secure enough to refuse to drive in bad weather. My days of driving through blizzards for work are over.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 04:55 PM

Originally Posted By: rebwa
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Originally Posted By: rebwa
Would a Carbon Monoxide Detector like those in RV's and boats be a good idea if using outside heat sources


They would, in theory. But you are adding complexity to the system, which is not a good thing.

.


A battery operated Carbon Monoxide Detector wouldn't do anything to the vehicle's wiring system.


You are absolutely correct, but now your life might depend upon whether the battery and its connections are all functioning properly - that is adding complexity. My personal feeling is that I would rather keep it simple and tuck myself into a nice warm bag, just like I do routinely when camping in winter conditions. Simply regard the vehicle interior as a glorified tent (no flapping in the wind or collapsing under a snow load, for example). Nights when I have bivouacked in my vehicle during wintry conditions have been rather pleasant. I have never had any difficulty is sleeping soundly and arising well rested.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 05:12 PM

Just yesterday, I put in my car a soy candle that is about 48 hours of clean burn. It would be 100 times better than nothing. Plus, I think a candle would be about the biggest flame I'd want in a small enclosed space.
Posted by: MostlyHarmless

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 05:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

BTW would anyone consider sleeping outside the vehicle using a self inflating mat and Goretex bivi bag.


If I have the proper gear and clothing with me - absolutely. Provided, of course, that I don't foresee any possibility of having to move the vehicle at short notice.

But I must add that a bivy bag isn't exactly my idea of proper gear for sleeping comfortably in a blizzard....
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 05:19 PM

For this thread, I have been thinking about getting stuck in a freezing environment during the winter. In such a case, I would not attempt to sleep outside, unless I could make a proper fire without wasting too much energy.
Posted by: TimDex

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 05:23 PM

I live near Canada (northern NY) so this is something I have to plan for --

My plan includes two milspec poncho liners, small backpack of warm clothing, water, datrex survival bars, various PSK signaling devices, tea candles, and a trangia alcohol stove to heat warm drinks. I should probably add a couple of sleeping bags, but haven't yet.

My understanding is that an alcohol stove does not produce carbon monoxide (which would include the survival heater referenced above). However, I think you would still need ventilation.

Interested in responses: does burning alcohol produce CO?

Above all, I would avoid making things really complicated and relying solely on some mechanical/electrical device that would probably fail just when you need it.

Tim
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 05:35 PM

Originally Posted By: rebwa
While not directly heating the vehicle, the hand, toe and body warmers work pretty darn well and last for quite a while. I always carry a good assortment of them in the winter vehicle kit.


Those are remarkable. I recently opened a couple up whose sell-by date was 2008. They were plenty warm and lasted for hours.
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 05:40 PM


Makes it harder for rescuers to find your car or other motorists or snowplows to keep from running into it.

REI is selling "HELP" blaze orange vinyl signs half-off. Good thing to put over the snow-covered car cave.






Posted by: rebwa

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Dagny
Makes it harder for rescuers to find your car or other motorists or snowplows to keep from running into it.

REI is selling "HELP" blaze orange vinyl signs half-off. Good thing to put over the snow-covered car cave.








Yes, and I always carry at least couple of flashers with plenty of extra batts to keep them going. And the vinyl signal marker is a must as even a brightly covered bandanna will be white from snow and ice sticking to the cotton cloth.
Posted by: rebwa

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 06:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Dagny
[I wonder if the 120-hour candles would generate enough heat to warrant the smoke.





I carry a couple of the survival candles tucked in under where the backseats are permanently folded down. Can't remember what brand they are. They would generate some heat for sure. Just make sure to always crack a window and make sure to determine which way the wind is blowing so you don't have snow or wind blowing into the vehicle.
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: TimDex
Interested in responses: does burning alcohol produce CO?


Any combustion can create CO given the right (or wrong) circumstances -- a low oxygen environment. Hydrogen is the only one that shouldn't, at least in theory; though IIRC very hot objects in contact with air are known to give off small amounts of CO directly.

Many CO detectors won't work properly below a certain temperature. Read the specs before relying on one.

Ventilation is always needed, not only to keep the oxygen level up but to vent out some of the moisture. Moisture kills insulation, and the amount you breathe out is surprising.

I've always carried a stash of candles in the car with appropriate containers. If they are tea lights, I carry a bit of extra wick or twine to make them burn a bit hotter on demand. I'm leery of an open pot of flammable liquid in such tight quarters: one jostle as I'm dozing and I can turn my emergency shelter into a smoke-filled mess. Yikes.
Posted by: Tyber

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 06:28 PM

I carry sleeping bags, and coleman cadalidic heater. I also have way too many stoves!
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 08:08 PM

In a blizzard, the snow will often cover the vehicle for you. It's not a bad idea to add more. I think you would need to have a foot at least to gain substantial insulation value, and three feet would be better. Also, don't discount the gains of building up a windbreak and loosely wrapping the vehicle in whatever tarp material you may have.

Signalling is important though. A high-speed plow can total a vehicle. I always carry a few of those orange flags from building supply stores that are used for long loads (hey, they're blaze orange, multipurpose, and free). I also have one or more bicycle flasher lights, the red LED jobs, in each car. That preserves the battery, and you can mount the flashers on a stick or a tripod on the roof. There's nothing worse than coming back to retrieve a vehicle and finding the battery is dead and destroyed due to freezing.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 08:23 PM

I guess it is time for an "off the beaten path" story. Throw another log on the fire....

I was driving solo in the White Mountains of Arizona, on my way to a rendezvous with two friends to embark on a fairly long ski tour (four days). As I got into the mountains it began to snow and night fell. I was creeping along in reduced visibility when progress stopped as I lurched into an impassible mound of snow. It was about 10 at night.

No problem. I was equipped for sleeping out in this weather anyway (my friends were bringing a tent, so I did not have that, but I was packing everything else, including stove, fuel, and food and water), so I simply got out my sleeping bag and slept.

In the morning, as rosy-fingered dawn was creeping through the trees, I awoke, had breakfast, and listened. Sure enough, I could hear a snowplow approaching. I was quite surprised (think the expression on the face of Wil E, Coyote) when I saw the snowplow roar by on the highway, which was on an embankment about fifteen feet above me.

In the storm, I had followed an abandoned road segment down into a deep drift. Had I gone a little further, I would have found that the bridge across the small stream was missing.

I was almost in town, so I packed up, put on my skis, and started touring a little bit early.

Had I actually been on the active roadway, some sort of signal would have been a good idea, although the car was never covered.

I am glad we are having these heated discussions.....
Posted by: philip

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 08:27 PM

I was in the Air Force in North Dakota for 4 years. We were trained to carry a survival bag for each person in the car. Enough blankets and clothes to survive overnight in way below zero temperatures. The recommendations back then (early 70s) were to watch your fuel and run the engine with the heater on if possible. If it was snowing or there was blowing snow, have someone get out and check the exhaust to make sure it wasn't blocked. Crack a window on the leeward side of the car for ventilation.

We were also told to carry candles to light in the car (with a cracked window) if we couldn't run the engine. I never had to use any of this, so I don't know how well candles worked as a source of heat.

The issue I have with being stranded in the winter is that you won't know how long it will be till you're rescued, so providing heat in the cabin of your vehicle is not a good solution - you'll run out of gas, propane, candles if you aren't rescued promptly. My idea is that I should have sufficient gear in the car to keep us all warm enough to survive our coldest temps without further heating. I'd say body heat is the best, most renewable, and longest lasting source.

We also carried food with us.

I have to say the gear the AF issued to its members was excellent. I was out in very high winds at way below zero at nights and while it wasn't pleasant no one was cold in our winter outfits, not even toes and fingers. Now I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and it hasn't been below freezing since we moved here in '94.
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 08:45 PM

Originally Posted By: NightHiker
Pile snow/allow it to drift up around the bottom of the vehicle (keep the exhaust pipe clear if you're gonna run it). This will help reduce the heat lost to conduction.
I think you mean convection? The snow will stop the wind from carrying away from heat (i.e. convection).

Piled snow will actually cause more heat to be lost by conduction (assuming the snow is actually touching the vehicle and that the interior of the vehicle is warmer than 32F/0C).

HJ
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 09:30 PM

Originally Posted By: NightHiker
if the air temp is say 15F than I'd much rather my disabled vehicle be snuggled into a 32F snowbank.
Absolutely! I'd say you're better off even if it's warmer than that. Wind sweeping underneath a vehicle can quickly rob a lot of heat.

Of course, using a snow shovel and working up a sweat would be a bad mistake to my view. But if you can get snow protection without otherwise compromising your situation, then snow wind breaks or insulation is the way to go.

HJ
Posted by: MostlyHarmless

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/08/10 09:49 PM

As long as there is snow blowing on the car and/or piled up against it, 32 F / 0 C will be a magical upper threshold for the metal outside of the car. It can get colder, but it can't get warmer - melting snow is a tremendously effective cooling agent.


So - I certainly wouldn't bother with piling up snow around the car if the temperature was not too far below 0C / 32 F.


If it was, say, 0F / -17C, packing the car into a big snow pile could raise the metal outside temperature up to the melting point. Which in this case is a huge improvement. And it would get your car out of the wind. But you can't really pack the whole car - you'd want to leave at least a door or window free. Still, keeping 80% of the outer metal surface at 32F/0C will substantially reduce the heat loss.


The drawback is that it would involve moving large amounts of snow. And it would create problems when you want to move the car again. You will have a crust of ice hard snow around your car. Removing that isn't fun.


Sleeping bags rated for the outside temperature seems like much less hassle. Just sleep through the whole ordeal. And food and (hot) water - you need calories and (preferably hot) liquid or you'll freeze.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/09/10 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: ponder
If you would like to be alive in several days, I would recommend that you stay warm with heavy clothes and an extreme cold sleeping bag. The second day of immobility without exercise, you will get very cold.

A stack of 120 hr candles will provide the comfort of light and warm drink.


IMO long-burning multi-wick candles are a good option. When selecting them it helps to understand that the listed time is only valid with a single, and quite well trimmer, wick. I figure about half the listed time and then divide again for more wicks. For example a 120 hour candle can be reliably estimated at 60 hours for a single wick burning and 30 hours with two going. Yes, you will almost certainly get more run time that this very conservative estimate tells you but that extra is your reserve and safety margin.

I don't know about a 'stack' but two or three would be a reasonable investment. Reasonably priced at less than $9 at Best Glide (no affiliation):

http://www.bestglide.com/Nuwick_120_Info.html

These long burning tinned candles are quite handy. They store pretty well. As long as you keep the right-side-up, so the wax doesn't slump in summer heat, they seem to remain usable for many years. It is also a good idea to take the spare wicks and other accessories out of the tin and tape them to the bottom of the tin inside a plastic bag. Exposed to extreme summer heat I've seen the spare wicks with their tin discs start to sink into the wax. IMHO it is better to leave only the wax in the tin so the accessories are always at hand.

There are a few items that make using these candles easier:
A folding sheet-metal stove that is intended for use with Sterno. Sure beats having to hold a pot.

One or more 12" ceramic tiles or pieces of plywood wrapped in aluminum foil give you a heat resistant place to set up the stove, or place a hot pot. A hot pot can seriously damage upholstery and the plastic of many vehicles.

A piece of plywood. 16" by 24" seems to work well but adjust for your needs. This has to be padded with wood blocks or other material to fit the seats in your vehicle so it rests in a level and stable manner on the topography of the seat contours. It helps if you maintain some rocker in the design, and/or spare blocking, so you can level the surface if the vehicle itself is not level. A non-slip surface and fiddles, raised lips, around the edges help keep things from sliding off. This is your general work surface. A place to set up cooking. A surface to work or play cards on.

These tinned candles give you heat (without having to run the engine) light, a method of melting snow for water, the ability to brew up hot drinks, and do some light cooking.

While you're at it a painter's canvas drop cloth is useful for keeping the food, wax splatters, and other crud associated with survival in a vehicle, off the upholstery.
Posted by: LED

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/09/10 02:36 AM

I've got a beeswax survival candle from Pheylonian products. If I'm stuck in a confined space I'd rather have a clean burning candle (with windows cracked of course). I've got an Altoids alcohol stove too but the candle is specifically for warming up the car. Also have a +40 sleeping bag w/fleece liner, extra clothing, tarp, food, etc.
Posted by: ILBob

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/10/10 03:12 PM

Sterno.
Posted by: TimDex

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/10/10 05:09 PM

Art -- Thanks for tips on long burning candles. Those sound good. Tim
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/10/10 05:37 PM

Just remember that any open flame is a potential source of carbon monoxide, so be sure to ventilate. Now I will get off my soapbox.....
Posted by: acropolis5

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/11/10 05:37 AM

I'm suprised no one mentioned chemical heat packs (12hr.) and blanket sacks. In our cars we keep the plastic and foam rescue blankets, chemical heat packs and the Nu-Wick 120hr. tinned candles.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/11/10 08:28 PM

Re: Sterno.

Sterno, jellied alcohol, can be used and can be a major benefit. But there are weaknesses that have to be worked around. Effective storage depends on the containers remaining sealed. Any leak will allow the alcohol to evaporate. The old style paint-can seals were pretty good for being resealable. The newer pull top cans with a cheap plastic lid to reseal are only effective for a few days at most. Once opened the can has to be used or it will degrade.

The jellied alcohol only remains jelled when cool. Once you light it a major portion of the fuel, sometimes all of it, turns liquid and can spill. If spilled the alcohol can continue to burn. If you spill liquid candle wax the fire doesn't usually spread because the wax won't burn without a wick. Alcohol fires can be almost invisible.

Trying to melt snow or heat drinks in a vehicle is going to be messy. If you use Sterno you need to be extra careful not to spill it and to make sure it is really out when you think it is. I'm sure it can be done but you might want to invest some effort into manufacturing a stable work surface and a stove or stand to make heating a pot easier. With Sterno you don't want to be trying to balance things.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/11/10 10:50 PM

I purchased a pack of smaller Sterno cans for emergency use. Over about a five year period about half of them, six or so, lost their contents through evaporation. These were pristine, unopened cans.

I just go with alcohol now. many of the disadvantages you list for Sterno apply to liquid alcohol, such as the nearly invisible flame. At least the alcohol doesn't seem to evaporate and it is usable in a variety of situations.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/12/10 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
I purchased a pack of smaller Sterno cans for emergency use. Over about a five year period about half of them, six or so, lost their contents through evaporation. These were pristine, unopened cans.


Interesting. I've never seen unopened Sterno cans of any sort loose their contents. The old, mid 70s, paint can style closure was pretty good. I've seen cans resealed after partial use last well over a decade.

I'm also unsure how jellied alcohol would be less likely to evaporate than liquid alcohol.
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/12/10 06:02 AM

Just to be Safe,I would think the MRE heaters would be The Safest means of Heating up Food/Beverages,In the confines of your Vehicle(Car/Pick-up) without resorting to the use of The Battery,ie.Inverter,Cig.Lighter,etc. Most Surplus stores sell them Individually for a few bucks each!
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/12/10 06:46 PM

Quote:
Just to be Safe,I would think the MRE heaters would be The Safest means of Heating up Food/Beverages,In the confines of your Vehicle(Car/Pick-up) without resorting to the use of The Battery,ie.Inverter,Cig.Lighter,etc. Most Surplus stores sell them Individually for a few bucks each!


Doesn't the MRE FRHs use a Magnesium reaction liberating Hydrogen gas. Even carrying MRE FRHs for transport under FAA guidelines is regarded as a transport hazard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flameless_ration_heater

Perhaps the Hotcan or Hotpack self heating meal solution would be even safer as both products use a different exothermic chemical reaction with no explosive hydrogen being released.

http://www.hotcan.com/

http://www.hotpackmeals.co.uk/
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/13/10 03:54 AM

FAA Guidelines?Since when did they have anything to do with an Automobile?I have used the MRE Heaters,Outside of my vehicle,& I've Never even thought about Lighting up the contents,Upon opening, for Retreival of food source!Are WE thinking Static Electricity for possible Ignition of Said,Minute amount of Hydrogen Gas? In that case,Go ahead & Have Cold Tea w/ Coddled Cream! I'll take my chances,Of which are Many,& Enjoy a Hot cup of VIA- Colombiano & Something to Nosh on,As well,Afterward,I'll use same used Heater bag to,Empty my Bladder into,So were Talking Multi-purpose for $3 bucks or less! I was gonna'say dual-purpose but realized,I could also Throw the bag at The Official from The FAA,of whom had the GALL,to walk thru a Blizzard,from his Cushy warm office at the Airport,Just to inform me,I'm Not abiding by FAA Guidelines! smile
Posted by: comms

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/14/10 03:17 PM

The last couple of days the mid west has been hammered by a snow storm which is moving east to New England and east coast.

Did I hear correctly that some drivers in the mid west were stuck in the snow for 12 hours before rescued along freeways?

I haven't seen anything on here regarding that so figured it was a miss read by me.
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/14/10 03:29 PM

Originally Posted By: comms
The last couple of days the mid west has been hammered by a snow storm which is moving east to New England and east coast.

Did I hear correctly that some drivers in the mid west were stuck in the snow for 12 hours before rescued along freeways?

I haven't seen anything on here regarding that so figured it was a miss read by me.



In the Winter Car Kits thread yesterday:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wintery_weather

Wind hampers efforts to free drivers on Ind. road

By TOM COYNE, Associated Press – 12 mins ago

LAPORTE, Ind. – More than 70 motorists were stuck for hours Monday in biting temperatures on snow-covered highways in northwest Indiana as strong winds hampered snow plow drivers' efforts to free them. By Monday afternoon, most had been rescued safely, but a few were still trapped by drifts.

Authorities said strong winds with gusts up to 30 mph were delaying rescue efforts.

...Others were trapped overnight on U.S. 30, some for more than 12 hours...




Posted by: comms

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/14/10 03:43 PM

Thanks.
Normally I am on here daily but my schedule's been a bit weird. There is a lot more 'bold' unread threads to scan through.
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/14/10 05:02 PM

This thread is amazingly timely, isn't it!

The big storm around the Great Lakes has hit your Canadian neighbours pretty hard too. Quite a mess.

Around 300 people have been trapped in their cars in Ontario for 24 hours and counting. Here's a story with a bit of detail on how people are coping.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nati...#articlecontent
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/14/10 07:32 PM

I was curious how quickly water would heat up on top of a "Candlelier" (3-candle candle lantern) so I put a cup of water in a Snow Peak titanium cup and placed it on top of a Candlelier.

Within 10 minutes the one cup of water was warm. Within 20 minutes the water was cocoa-toasty. After 40 minutes the water was not boiling but it was painful to dip a finger in and tiny bubbles were forming on the bottom of the cup -- plenty hot enough for mixing with Mountain House freeze-dried meals.

With these candles still burning I emptied out the water, cooled the cup and started over with 2 cups of water. This time I put the pot set's "frying pan" over the cup as a lid. The time-line is about the same -- cocoa-toasty after 20 minutes, Mt. House-ready in 40 minutes (water not quite boiling but bubbles forming). Around 50 minutes it was boiling.

I've been carrying a single-candle candle lantern but this makes me think the 3-candle is worth carrying in the car. For this experiment I used the standard 9-hour UCO candles that come in packages of three ($3) and that are nearly burned out.

Candlelier (these are $29 at Campmor)
http://www.rei.com/product/624320

REI and Campmor also carry a Beeswax version of the candles that last 12-15 hours. They are three times as expensive ($10 for three) but in addition to lasting significantly longer, they generate less smoke. Seems worthwhile for a stranded car situation. Light + heat in one package that you can use inside the vehicle.

Beeswax UCO candles
http://www.rei.com/product/737330

I just ordered three packs of the Beeswax candles, from Amazon, for $9.84 each and free shipping with the Prime membership. Should receive them in two days and they'll be going in the car along with a Candlelier that's been sitting in a box. I went Candlelier-crazy in the 90s after a power outage.

Fortunately, camp gear lasts if stored well and sometimes sees much more use later on in a different application. I'd bought them for ambience.

The titanium cookset I'm using:
http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/41366?feat=506856-GN2



Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/14/10 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
This thread is amazingly timely, isn't it!

The big storm around the Great Lakes has hit your Canadian neighbours pretty hard too. Quite a mess.

Around 300 people have been trapped in their cars in Ontario for 24 hours and counting. Here's a story with a bit of detail on how people are coping.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nati...#articlecontent


That is an interesting article, Doug, thanks:


"He keeps his SUV stocked with a shovel and candles and still had three-quarters of a tank of gas Tuesday morning. He had brought along some spaghetti and peaches, which he ate on Monday, and he and the trucker had oatmeal and pears for breakfast on Tuesday. And since he spends weekdays in London, he had a bag of clothes – and a parka.

"...Motorists were also encouraged to stay in their vehicles and consider pooling resources until rescuers get to them."


Posted by: philip

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/14/10 08:36 PM

> Doesn't the MRE FRHs use a Magnesium reaction liberating Hydrogen gas.

Yep. I've used HeaterMeals brand food for years, indoors and out, with their self-heating saltwater/magnesium combos. I wouldn't want to say the meal would be _hot_ if the ambient temperature is freezing or less, but you might get a warm meal out of it.

The boxes do say they aren't allowed on planes, but then my tube of toothpaste isn't allowed on, either.
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/15/10 05:57 PM

has anyone tried an old fashoned Dietz lantern?... even with its glass globe they are pretty rugged and simple....light as well as heat...fashon a simple pot stand on top... could be carried empty and filled from sealed lamp oil (liquid paraffin) bottles...
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/15/10 07:03 PM

I think a Dietz lantern would work quite well. Certainly safer than an open pot of liquid fuel. I have several, and even used 2-3 of them one year to protect my tomatoes from a surprise frost. They put out a surprising amount of heat.

In my part of the world, liquid paraffin is a tricky proposition. It's less smelly, true, which would be more pleasant in a vehicle; but it also turns into a semi-solid as the temperature drops, which would be a major problem. Kerosene doesn't have this problem.

Hmm, outside my window it's -12C with a howling wind and blowing snow (semi-whiteout conditions), and a wind chill of -22C. And I have an old car parked in the middle of my yard, half buried in the snow, and I could just throw in a thermometer and do some field tests with candles and lanterns ... whistle
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/15/10 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
Hmm, outside my window it's -12C with a howling wind and blowing snow (semi-whiteout conditions), and a wind chill of -22C. And I have an old car parked in the middle of my yard, half buried in the snow, and I could just throw in a thermometer and do some field tests with candles and lanterns ... whistle
Go, Doug, go!

Thanks for the article about all the people stuck in their vehicles in the snow. Nothing like reality to bring home the importance of some of what is discussed here.

I will never forget coming across a family stuck in a broken down old car at perhaps 7000' elevation in the local mountains one snowy November. I was wearing a big down jacket, and I was cold. They were all wearing shorts, T shirts, and flip flops. I drove into town and called a tow truck for them. It was late in the day and driving conditions were bad. Very few people were out that day. I'm so glad I happened along at that moment.

HJ
Posted by: Russ

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/15/10 11:37 PM

Isn't liquid paraffin another term for kerosene?

Edit: Nope Liquid Paraffin is another term for mineral oil . .
Quote:
. . .Fire performance

Mineral oil is a fuel used by professional firespinners and firebreathers. It is chosen for its high flashpoint and low burning temperature. As a firebreathing fuel it is ideal because it will not tend to burn as a liquid, due to the high flashpoint, thus preventing blowback. However, due to the risk of aspiration of mineral oil and resulting lung damage, this use is considered a health hazard and discouraged.. . .
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/16/10 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Russ
Isn't liquid paraffin another term for kerosene?

Edit: Nope Liquid Paraffin is another term for mineral oil . .
Quote:
. . .Fire performance

Mineral oil is a fuel used by professional firespinners and firebreathers. It is chosen for its high flashpoint and low burning temperature. As a firebreathing fuel it is ideal because it will not tend to burn as a liquid, due to the high flashpoint, thus preventing blowback. However, due to the risk of aspiration of mineral oil and resulting lung damage, this use is considered a health hazard and discouraged.. . .
Depends on where in the world you are. Paraffin in Great Britain refers to the higher grade of kerosene, what we would call K-1 kerosene here. See also http://fuel.papo-art.com/

HJ
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/16/10 01:17 AM

seems like a wick lantern would be a good multi fuel choice... kerosine, diesel, cooking oil, motor oil, lamp oil... why I mentioned liquid paraffin, that is what the lamp oil I happen to have is composed of... doesn't seem to evaporate in the old fashoned desk lamps that have visible reservoirs...if it ever gets to -12C in Florida I'm filing a class action lawsuit over global warming.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/16/10 01:49 AM

Global climate change got mis-labeled due to early focus and research on warming of the polar regions. Overall the ecosystem has warmed but local effects vary.
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/16/10 02:45 AM

that was a humble attempt at humor
Posted by: TimDex

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/16/10 02:07 PM

This explains what happened to a bottle of ultra pure lamp oil that I had in my garage. I was surprised to see it frozen solid yesterday.

I'm curious. Does this hurt the long term value of the oil? Is it the same when it thaws. I would assume so.

Tim W.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/17/10 02:44 AM

If the oil doesn't separate or turn colors it can be pretty safely assumed to have survived freezing.
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/17/10 03:10 AM

Yes, the oil will probably be okay. I've seen the same thing and never noticed any weird effects. A good mix before decanting would probably be a good idea. Couldn't hurt, anyway.

- - - - -
BTW: I did a test with tea lights in my snowbound car. Four tea lights in a safe container, with their aluminum holders touching to ensure all the wax would melt, raised the inside temp. to -7C with the outside temp. at -14C and a brisk wind (-23C windchill). This was done without a person inside and the windows were closed (though the window/door seals are pretty old; I could feel a bit of air coming in). The car had about 3-4 inches of snow on top, and I shovelled snow to close the air gap all around the bottom perimeter. So there you have it: candles actually help.
Posted by: Phaedrus

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/17/10 03:12 AM

Cool, Doug! Thanks for the practical test.
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/17/10 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
I did a test with tea lights in my snowbound car. Four tea lights in a safe container, with their aluminum holders touching to ensure all the wax would melt, raised the inside temp. to -7C with the outside temp. at -14C and a brisk wind (-23C windchill). This was done without a person inside and the windows were closed (though the window/door seals are pretty old; I could feel a bit of air coming in). The car had about 3-4 inches of snow on top, and I shovelled snow to close the air gap all around the bottom perimeter. So there you have it: candles actually help.
Now, that's a very cool test! Four little tea light candles were able to raise the temperature seven degrees Celsius? That's impressive. How long did it take?

HJ
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/17/10 06:36 PM

I was kind of surprised too. I lit the tea lights and walked away for about three hours.

The tea lights I used were a bit deeper than the ones in the stores now. They were mostly burned up when I returned.

The car is a Mazda compact sedan. About the same air volume as a four-man tent I'd guess. You'd need a lot more candles for a Hummer.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/17/10 06:39 PM

Real nice test. It probably would have been even warmer with an occupant or two; I have heard that a functioning body is about equivalent in heat output to a 100 watt bulb.

Now it's time for me to be the carbon monoxide Nazi. Any idea of what the CO level might have been? It would be interesting to repeat this test with a detector inside....
Posted by: TimDex

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/17/10 07:17 PM

That's a nice test. The only kicker I could see is -- would the car have been warmed up with the sun shining on its windows? The temp inside a car in winter does warm up if the sun is out. Tim
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/17/10 08:07 PM

I think the CO level would have been pretty close to nil. On the windward side, I could feel a little bit of air being pushed in past the door seals (old car, you know). No doubt a bit was being pushed out on the lee side. Adequate ventilation for four tiny candles IMO. (I don't think my house CO detectors work below 0C.)

I don't believe sun was a factor this time, though it would be in other situations. It was late in the day, deep overcast, snow blowing horizontally across the fields. The car had 3-4 inches of powder snow across the top, including the windshield, hood, etc.

Not a scientific test by any means, but instructive none the less.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
I think the CO level would have been pretty close to nil.


I would hope so, but the reason I raise the issue is that my encounter with CO came from use of a miner's carbide lamp in a partially enclosed space with a volume about that of a typical automobile. The flame on the carbide would have had a length equivalent to one or two typical candles. The result was a raging headache which dissipated upon exposure to fresh air.

I checked for some public health information about carbon monoxide on Wikipedia. The estimate is that about 40,000 people seek medical attention for CO poisoning annually in the US. Over a ten year period (1979-88) there were 30,244 unintentional fatal cases of CO poisoning, as well as 25,889 suicides. The article mentioned that catalytic converters scrub about 99% of the CO from car exhaust, although an engine running in an enclosed space can still cause problems. Far fewer people use car exhaust as a means of suicide because of this.

end of rant - stepping down from soapbox.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 01:35 AM

"Interested in responses: does burning alcohol produce CO?"

Answer: It depends.

The Sterno people say that their product (jelled alcohol) only produces carbon DIoxide and water when burned, no carbon monoxide.

But there's a bit more to it: First, ANY fuel will produce carbon monoxide when incompletely burned, including alcohol.

There is an interesting article [url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1818205/pdf/canmedaj01419-0054.pdf]here[/url] on a carbon monoxide poisoning incident due to burning Sterno where the Sterno cans were under a chaffing dish. Both the Sterno cans and the bottom of the chaffing dish were wrapped together in a wide collar of aluminum foil, which limited oxygen to the flames and caused incomplete combustion and a high concentration of carbon monoxide.

But even if you are burning alcohol completely and no carbon monoxide is produced, the burning itself requires oxygen, and in a closed environment the lack of oxygen will cause you to suffocate. Dead is dead.

Sue
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 04:27 AM

OK, I'm going to assume cracking the window about 1 cm on the leeward (hopefully) side of the vehicle is going to stand me in good stead.

So what are my options?
(Liquid) alcohol stove - too dang dangerous if I bump it over
Sterno - sounds like a good option, yes?
Candle - maybe not as safe as Sterno, but in some type of "candleier" maybe a pretty good bet. Candles do put out soot some times
Gas (butane/isobutane/propane) - no spill risk, but pretty high heat. Fire risk? Definitely don't want a spindly stove; you'd want something steady.
Coleman Fuel - no way in heck. Way to hazardous.
Kerosene - safer than Coleman, but I still can't see it

So maybe Sterno is actually the best heat for a car followed by candles as a second? Is this fair to say?

Yes, if I've got plenty of gas and my tail pipe is clear, the car's heater is great, and a plug in cigarette lighter electric heater would be great if you're willing to risk discharging your batter, but if I've got to fall back to something inside the car, what do you think?

I don't have any experience with portable catalytic propane heaters. Are those the better way to go?

HJ
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 04:49 AM

Originally Posted By: clearwater
Anyone tried this?

It is combustion, wouldn't CO be a concern with it?

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-a-survival-heater-for-your-car/
He recommends using isopropyl alcohol? Everything I've read suggests that's a sooty mess to burn. Not so sure about that idea.

HJ
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 05:12 AM

Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle,Start From the inside-out,Eat a Load of Pinto Beans & Jalapeno Peppers,It Will Warm You Up,& When The Authorities come,& Demand you exit the vehicle,They get a Waft of Warmth,When they open the door,Perhaps,They may also let you remain in your Vehicle! smile
Posted by: LED

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 08:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
So what are my options?
(Liquid) alcohol stove - too dang dangerous if I bump it over
Sterno - sounds like a good option, yes?
Candle - maybe not as safe as Sterno, but in some type of "candleier" maybe a pretty good bet. Candles do put out soot some times
Gas (butane/isobutane/propane) - no spill risk, but pretty high heat. Fire risk? Definitely don't want a spindly stove; you'd want something steady.
Coleman Fuel - no way in heck. Way to hazardous.
Kerosene - safer than Coleman, but I still can't see it


Don't forget olive oil lamp, (you can easily make one with a jar, wire, and cotton fiber) and beeswax candles. Both burn much cleaner than paraffin. Yes, the olive oil may solidify but you can always put it inside the coat to warm up enough to light. Plus, with the olive oil lamp, you can adjust the wick thickness to create more heat. Any cotton twine works fine.
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 11:32 AM

re: catalytic heaters... I use them as space heaters and once lighted they are flameless...mine sit at an angle to the floor, but after my original comment, I used a plastic bottle stand from my single burner stove to set it vertical...the actual heating "head" might be a little large to sit on the floorboard without interfering with the dash... the pictures of the vertical unit on Coleman's web site appear to be a little smaller, and would be my choice... they are available with piezo electric starters but would naturally back it up...don't know what your daytime summer temps are but I think I would remove the gas bottles

I think I would give the Dietz lantern and kerosine a test if living in that type of climate...the W T Kirkman Co. does not recommend the use of paraffin based lamp oil (of which I am guilty) so will probably get a new wick and a supply of kerosine for next years hurricane season...light in a parked car on a highway is probably a good thing...
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 05:26 PM

I'll see if I can do a test with my Dietz lantern. Might as well get *something* useful out of this lousy weather. eek

Stay tuned.
Posted by: LED

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/18/10 10:05 PM

Klean-Heat lantern/heater fuel is supposed to burn a lot cleaner than K-1 kerosene and with no smell. I plan on using some for my Dietz.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/19/10 12:09 AM

From the 'Desperate Times and Desperate Measures' department there are also fat lamps. Pretty much any nonflammable container and a wick, a bit of natural fiber, preferably cotton, can be used to burn fats and oils.

The oil off the tip of the peanut-butter works. As would, shall we say, rendered fat ... looking sideways at her overweight companion and testing the edge on her knife ... well ... you get the idea.

You might also try engine oil or diesel, although last I tried them they burned poorly, smoked a great deal and produced fumes that were clearly not healthy. I suspect a lot of this comes from the additives that are added to both. Do NOT use gasoline.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/19/10 07:21 PM

Here's an idea of kits I have in my car:

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=211780#Post211780

I hope I never have to use them.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/20/10 02:29 AM

With the Reflectix in mind...

Cars have virtually no insulation at all. What about tucking the edge of a plain mylar emergency blanket in the tops of the side windows and letting them drape down to the floor to reflect interior body heat?

Sue
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/20/10 03:09 AM

Not a bad idea. Back when I was living up north, I haven't always been in Florida, a friend used scrap pieces of outdoor carpet to cover the windows on his car. He placed them pile side down outside the car. When frost and ice formed it formed on the carpet which made clearing the windows in the morning easy. He just pulled off the carpet pieces and stuffed them in the truck.

He didn't mention the effect but I suspect that the carpets greatly improved the insulation of the vehicle by limiting heat loss through the glass. Most late model cars have some insulation in the body and door panels but the large areas of glass remain entirely uninsulated.

Reflectix is pretty good stuff. It is light, easy to work with and fairly good insulation. A bit expensive for the R-value you get but it has its uses. If you can arrange for an air gap you get better performance. Ive used it to insulate electric water heaters, pipes, a pump house, and a hen house. The later two cases it worked out well because the stuff doesn't absorb water like fiberglass does. Which meant that the insides of both were easier to clean because they could could be sprayed with detergent and/or bleach and get hosed out.
Posted by: MostlyHarmless

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/20/10 07:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
Not a bad idea. Back when I was living up north, I haven't always been in Florida, a friend used scrap pieces of outdoor carpet to cover the windows on his car. He placed them pile side down outside the car. When frost and ice formed it formed on the carpet which made clearing the windows in the morning easy. He just pulled off the carpet pieces and stuffed them in the truck.

He didn't mention the effect


Old trick anyone living up north learns pretty quickly. You can use newspapers, carpets and even dedicated nylon coverings (that covers the entire car, and packs down to the size of a football).

On a cold, cloudless night, there is a great radiation loss from the earth's surface to space. Any object with a clear view of the stars will cool significantly. If
a) the temperature is below freezing - or even a few degrees ABOVE freezing
and b) the thin bodywork of the car (metal) and the glas windows cools below the air's dew point,
then ice crystals will form on those surfaces.

You can use basically anything - the ice will form on the outer layer of your carpet/newspaper/tarp or whatever, leaving your windows ice free.
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/20/10 01:00 PM

one of Dad's early rural mail vehicles was a 63 Chevy wagon with AC installed after purchase by the dealer..provided marginal cooling with the large area, so he closed off the rear of the wagon with clear plastic... used a couple of yard sticks to make an arched support with the roof... ends fitted against the trim panels and held plastic firmly against the roof... used "chicago screws" machine post screws to hold the two pieces of wood with the right amount of tension... might work for you to partition off the rear of your vehicles with mylar
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/21/10 11:52 PM

Originally Posted By: LED
Klean-Heat lantern/heater fuel is supposed to burn a lot cleaner than K-1 kerosene and with no smell. I plan on using some for my Dietz.
I believe cleaner burning means less soot but not necessarily less carbon monoxide. I would think the need for ventilation would not change when using Klean Heat vs. K-1 kerosene.

HJ
Posted by: Frisket

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/22/10 10:20 AM

http://www.zippo.com/products/handwarmer.aspx?bhcp=1

http://www.hotsnapz.com/mm5/merchant.mvc...&Quantity=1

http://www.amazon.com/Texsport-Solid-Fuel-Pocket-Handwarmer/dp/B002LFSLIA

Ideas opinions? I Have a old hand warmer like the zippo one I never used and I have a solid fuel one that works pretty well.
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/23/10 04:29 PM

I would be very hesitant about using an Dietz lantern in a confined vehicle. If that lantern gets knocked over and the fuel escapes then catches, you are going to be in dire straits very quickly...
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/23/10 09:17 PM

I agree, it's a tricky proposition, requiring a great deal of care. Though based on my experience with the Dietz, it's considerably safer than the "open pots of flaming liquid" some have suggested.

I'm using the Air Pilot model, which is rather squat and has a very wide base; I can tilt it to 45 degrees and it will right itself. Some cheaper lanterns I've seen are quite top-heavy, even with the tank full.

One thing I've noticed is that lanterns burn hotter and brighter as the burner and fuel warm up. I'm constantly turning the wicks down. So I'll start at minimum and adjust to keep it there. Otherwise I'll have kerosene soot all over the car. Not good.
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/23/10 11:44 PM

dougwalkabout... after Teslinhikers comment, I tipped my Air Pilot over and it did leak, but the flame almost extinguished itself, almost.... there is a lot of space between where the burner fits into the fount... an "O" ring or some teflon tape might prevent excess leakage...
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/24/10 02:14 AM

I would be cautious about using any liquid fuel that will burn without benefit of a wick. Wax would be pretty safe. Minor spills of alcohol and most oils are usually pretty easy to put out. Gasoline would be much more problematic. A fire running you out of your vehicle in the middle of a blizzard would be a major setback. And that assumes everyone gets out unburned and all the survival gear gets out with them.

Finding yourself standing outside in a snowstorm, seriously burned, watching your vehicle, much of your exterior winter-wear, and all of your survival gear burn would be a major setback.
Posted by: rebwa

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/24/10 01:39 PM

I have a couple Dietz lanterns and I wouldn't use them inside a vehicle. The globe gets hot and if tipped over they could become dangerous in a hurry!
Posted by: Glock-A-Roo

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/24/10 10:14 PM

Based on this thread I'm going to look into getting a UCO candle lantern with the beeswax candles. Seems like a good solution with reasonable safety. My wife says that beeswax candles generate less smoke, burn longer and produce somewhat less drippage than regular candles.
Posted by: ILBob

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/27/10 12:59 AM

I thought about this the other day while I was sitting in my car in a parking lot with the heater on full blast just to keep the temperature at a stable level.

With the heater putting out a much smaller amount of heat, it got cold pretty darn quick. Not as cold as it was outside the car, but cold.

I suspect any kind of small heater like a can of Sterno or a small alcohol stove are not going to change the temperature very much inside the car. A few degrees one way or the other won't make any real difference.

Better to save the fuel to heat water to warm yourself up from the inside out IMO, and get some hand warmers to stuff in your boots and inside your clothing to warm you up from the outside.
Posted by: Frisket

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/27/10 01:45 AM

Sternos, Yellow HEET and Denatured alc (depending on the brand of the Denatured Alc) Should never EVER be burned in a small space such as a car. They Put out toxic Fumes Due to the amount of methanol within them. Yellow Heet Being the worst of them if i recall correctly.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/27/10 02:20 AM

Is there a DIY modification of your vehicle that would create a reasonable venting system to allow safe and effective use of a fueled heater?
Posted by: CANOEDOGS

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/27/10 03:51 AM

i recall something in the way of a plastic shield that allowed a window to be rolled down a few inches but still covered enough to keep rain out.that might work to allow venting without wind coming in.
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/27/10 06:35 AM

Short of an RV or Roach Coach,Vehicles were/are Not Made to Have Fire in them!Buy a Bunch of Chemical Heat packs,They are Cheap,Effective,& Safe!Put em' into a .30 cal Ammo can,throw a few Clean Rags on top,to keep them from sliding around,& Short of their Expiration Dates,of which you can write on top of the can,You will have No Maintenance issue's!
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/27/10 01:16 PM

I suspect that heat packs, which might be adequate for warming hands for a short time, just don't pack the sort of heat output or duration to be a primary heat source in a vehicle which is poorly insulated. They might be useful for hand warming and small jobs but not as space heaters.

There is also the issue of cost. 120 hour multi-wick candles can be had for less than 16, sometimes around $10. An ammo can full of chemical heat packs is going to be pricey. Even more so when you have to replace them as meet their expiration date.
Posted by: falcon5000

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/27/10 02:06 PM

I would probably use a zippo hand warmer before a heat pack because you can get more time and heat. Also, I have been experimenting with cold weather gear because it is always a good thing to have something to keep you warm if the car broke down. For the past week while traveling up north, I had bought a Canada Goose expedition parka (not a Chinese copy)which took me awhile to save up and buy one but I tested it out and wore it every day on the trip and even up to ski lodges with my friends. The jacket will keep you very warm to (tested) 18 degrees F with just a tee shirt on with no layering and 30 MPH wind as well. It has tons of pockets and built in hand warmers for the pockets if you have no gloves. (basically gloves in pockets sewn in)I was able to carry tons of gear in the pockets with plenty of extra to spare and was thinking if you had that jacket alone with a pair of wool long johns or equivalent in your vehicle when traveling, it could take you down to 0 degrees with no problem if you had to stay in the vehicle for extended amounts of time. Anyway I think the military parka may do the same for cheaper but have not tried it. The idea would be throw a jacket in the car, the jacket has a lot of gear already in the pockets, it stays with you and in emergency's deploy it. When you get home, take it in the house. Utilizes hardly any room. The jacket is packed with down and you get hot in it above 35 degrees with a tee shirt only.
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/27/10 03:51 PM

The chemical warmers are localized warmth - but heavenly for cold hands and feet. Well worth having in the car all the time but for a road trip I'd pack them in conjunction with a 120-hour candle or candlelier (and Reflectix).

FWIW -- I recently opened up some chemical hand and feet warmers that I found in a box and whose sell-by date was 2008. They worked great and for quite a long time (I don't recall exactly how long)! (Grabber brand).

If you are at Costco soon, look for a deal on a box of them that they had going a couple weeks ago.

http://www.rei.com/product/405012


Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/28/10 12:54 AM

I've had a Bunch of the chemical/Grabber packs,& A Few Merino wool Scarfs from Italian Military,aprox.5' long x 12" wide,Wrapped a Scarf around my torso,secured with safety pins,& Inserted a Hand warmer pack,at each Kidney,With a Silk-Longsleeved Shirt& My Goretex-Flecktarn Jacket,I was Warm for Longer than 10hrs,with a Nominal Temp. of 20 F.,I even had to wrap the packs with a Merino sock,at 1 point,As they got Downright,Too Hot! Those things work,Very Well,Are Compact,& If purchased in Bulk,Such as Costco,come out to about $1 ea.!Goose Down,Such as Falcon 5000 Recommends is By far,The Best Insulator,But when it Gets Wet,All bets are off!
Posted by: Susan

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/28/10 12:59 AM

A good sleeping bag with chemical warmers inside!

Sue
Posted by: LCranston

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/28/10 04:02 AM

+1 on hand warmers and sleeping bags. I picked up retail box of 54 for 10.00 at sams club, have for same price on web- at 8 hrs per warmer even running 3 at once all the time is still 144 hours. inside a sleeping bag fully dressed you ar pretty good.

I do think you wil need sonething to keep your water liquid, candles etc....
Posted by: dweste

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/28/10 04:04 AM

Originally Posted By: LCranston
I do think you wil need sonething to keep your water liquid, candles etc....


Unless your water is too cold to begin with, consider bringing it into the sleeping bag.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/28/10 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Susan
A good sleeping bag with chemical warmers inside!

Sue

A god bag won't even need chemical warmers, other that the occupant; if someone is hypothermic or nearly so, SOP is to insert another bod into the bag to provide additional warmth.
Posted by: bacpacjac

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/29/10 08:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Andy
My best plan is to stay home. I'm now old enough and secure enough to refuse to drive in bad weather. My days of driving through blizzards for work are over.


We resorted to the same plan recently Andy. We missed a Christmas dinner as a result, but better this one than all the rest of them them.

That said, my car kit includes wool blanket, sleeping bag, extra clothes, pocket warmers, candles, high calorie food, a nesbit stove and mess cup/hot drinks for warmth.

To the question of sleeping outside, I keep a small tent, therma-rest and a tarp in my kit for just such a scenario. Keeping warm longer than a few hours waiting for a tow, might be better in a smaller, non-metal shelter.
Posted by: bacpacjac

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/29/10 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: comms


Did I hear correctly that some drivers in the mid west were stuck in the snow for 12 hours before rescued along freeways?


It happened up here in the great white north just a couple of weeks ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/world/americas/15canada.html?src=me
Posted by: bacpacjac

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 12/31/10 01:11 PM

Step #1, no matter what other supplies you bring: My Dad always said the best way to get warm is to stay warm. Whenever we got into a vehicle, the rule was to dress to survive, not to arrive.
Posted by: Arney

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 04:05 PM

The latest wintry blow to the East Coast got me to thinking about something. I've never been in the situation myself of being stuck out on a frozen road, but you often hear the advice to run the car's engine for 10 minutes every hour for warmth. Has anyone actually done this?

I ask because I'm curious if 10 minutes is enough time to warm up the engine enough to produce a usable amount of heat? I would think an engine could become quite cold in 50 minutes in sub-freezing temps.

Anyone have any idea if your typical alternator can mostly recharge the power lost to start the engine in just 10 minutes? I'm also concerned that with cars getting stuck for 10+ hours, a cold-weakened battery could eventually get too drained by following this hourly warming schedule.
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 04:31 PM

The 10-minute routine should work well enough, both for some heat and for charging. When I do it, I prefer to run the engine revs up for short periods -- this warms the engine faster, and charges much better since alternators are very inefficient at low speeds.
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Arney
The latest wintry blow to the East Coast got me to thinking about something. I've never been in the situation myself of being stuck out on a frozen road, but you often hear the advice to run the car's engine for 10 minutes every hour for warmth. Has anyone actually done this?

I ask because I'm curious if 10 minutes is enough time to warm up the engine enough to produce a usable amount of heat? I would think an engine could become quite cold in 50 minutes in sub-freezing temps.

Anyone have any idea if your typical alternator can mostly recharge the power lost to start the engine in just 10 minutes? I'm also concerned that with cars getting stuck for 10+ hours, a cold-weakened battery could eventually get too drained by following this hourly warming schedule.



Excellent points.

My experience with using jumper cables is that the car providing the jump is much more effective if its being revved up -- way up (and burning the precious fuel at a higher rate).

In cold temps it would take my car a few minutes to get the heater really hot. In a gridlock situation like we had yesterday I'd much rather rely on my clothes, sleeping bag and chemical warmers (for feet and hands).
Posted by: thseng

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 05:00 PM

In my experience, the temperature in a vehicle seems to drop very quickly as soon as you turn off the heater. If I was stuck, I'd probably just shut 'er down, bundle up, and wait.
Posted by: Frisket

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 05:37 PM

No idea if this has been posted yet sorry if it has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPABQW9gN2Q
Posted by: Alex

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 05:51 PM

Originally Posted By: thseng
In my experience, the temperature in a vehicle seems to drop very quickly as soon as you turn off the heater.

Perhaps you did not close all the vents, so the hot air just escaped? Also it's a typical mistake (at least here in California) when people are trying to use car heater or cooler leaving the main ventilation switch on intake (instead of recirculating)... And of course the heat retention depends on a particular vehicle design.
Posted by: Medicineball

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 08:28 PM

My own experience is that each person inside the car heats it about 15 degrees. With two people inside the car, you'll take a long time before you stop producing enough heat.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 08:46 PM

Then recommended 10 minutes doesn't have to be in one block.

I do a lot of waiting in winter, so I turn the heat up high, the blowers on high, and leave them there. I heat up the car until it's really warm, then turn it off. I don't run it for 10 minutes and then suffer for 45.

Cars just aren't insulated very well, and you don't see many double-paned car windows. I carry several cheap mylar blankets, and if necessary, I would roll the edges up in the windows and drape them down the car doors. This would probably work even better with several people on board.

Sue
Posted by: Arney

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/27/11 10:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Susan
I don't run it for 10 minutes and then suffer for 45.

You're right, it doesn't have to be 10 consecutive minutes, although I assume that's how the procedure is understood by most folks who hear it on the TV or radio.

From what you're saying, Sue, it sounds like the 10 consecutive minutes/hour way doesn't work all that well and that more frequent episodes running the engine would be better. However, I wonder if the battery issue would be even more an issue if I'm doing multiple engine start/hour for 10+ hours. However, maybe idling at higher RPM's to increase output from the alternator (and get more heat, to boot) may compensate. I just don't know, which is why I'm wondering what people's actual experiences are who have tried it.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/28/11 03:15 AM

Arney, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the battery issue". Mechanics and electricity are beyond my understanding.

I'm thinking you mean that repeated starts several times per hour for 10 hours or so would damage the battery. If it lasts the 10 hours and gets you home, pay $100 and get a new battery. How much would most people be willing to pay to avoid 10 miserable hours in a cold vehicle? Maybe $100?

Like one of my crews said when we passed several cars parked alongside the freeway with their lights flashing very early one Saturday morning (I'll guess the drivers were arrested for DUIs). One said, "Their batteries are going to be dead by the time they make bail". And the other one said, "A $100 battery is cheaper than having that new black Mercedes get hit in the dark and totaled."

Freeze all night and save the battery... *shrug* I would say that is like dying of dehydration in the desert with a canteen still half full of water because you were adamant about rationing it for tomorrow.

Alternate idea: invite other stranded people into your car and the combined body heat may keep you all warm. Of course, then you've got to make other decisions: cute mommy with three screaming kids eek , or three plain-jane librarians discussing the advantages of the Dewey Decimal system for 10 hours. crazy

Decisions, decisions...

Sue
Posted by: Arney

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/28/11 04:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Susan
Freeze all night and save the battery... *shrug*

Drain the battery, can't start the engine, still stuck, no more heater (for the typical, unprepared motorist). I doubt any motorist stuck on the Beltway without heat would die of exposure, but still, it's conceivable for people to be stuck a long time, and you might not be stuck with other motorists to help you. If you may be stuck for a while, it would be good to have some idea how well the recommended advice from the TV/radio works, including how long your battery can last doing that, if in fact you are draining it over time.

The James Kim incident might be an example of a situation where that kind of information helps a stuck, unprepared motorist stretch out how long they have some heat, given their fuel supply and battery charge.

Actually, the emergency flashers is a good point. Way back in high school, I remember draining my dad's car battery just sitting outside a girl's house chatting with her with just the emergency flashers on and the radio on for quite a while. I was shocked, maybe the battery was near the end of its life. Her father was not happy to have to jump start my car in the wee hours of the night. And that was a summer night. I imagine a car battery in the dead of winter would be a lot weaker.
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/28/11 01:06 PM

sounds like the making of a good experiment...anyone up north with an ammeter/voltmeter equipped car to determine how long it takes for the voltage regulator to click off from the high charge rate? related would be how long it takes warmed motor oil to reach a viscosity that produces undue drag on the starter motor... good public information service spot for a local news agency... I'm still wearing shorts..
Posted by: Susan

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/28/11 07:14 PM


"Drain the battery, can't start the engine, still stuck, no more heater..."

That's basically where you would be if you didn't use the heater, and croaked due to hypothermia, right? They would tow you out, anyway.

Trying to get the last six starts out of old or defective batteries in winter is just begging for trouble, anyway. There's no point in waiting to where someone's life or well-being could be in danger.

But it would be an interesting experiment for someone who knows about that stuff. If it's really do-able, it would ease the mind of people: "It's okay, Honey! If you get stuck with the kids, just set the heater on full blast and turn the engine on for a minute or so every five or six minutes, it won't hurt anything."

Ignorance isn't bliss, it's scary in a survival situation.

Sue
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/29/11 02:21 AM

Very timely discussion on the subject of car batteries and I have a few things to share.

In almost another lifetime ago it now seems, I was employed by a auto repair shop that did a lot of fleet maintenance for some very big companies at the time. One of my main responsibilities was vehicle electrial work, specifically diagnosing battery/starter and associated problems. Today, battery and vehicle techologies have changed, however the basic building blocks and theory are all the same.

To answer couple of questions that I read here. Disclaimer: This is my opinion so always do your own research and planning...


Q) Anyone have any idea if your typical alternator can mostly recharge the power lost to start the engine in just 10 minutes? I'm also concerned that with cars getting stuck for 10+ hours, a cold-weakened battery could eventually get too drained by following this hourly warming schedule.

A) Yes (and no)

Assuming a good battery and properly maintained charging system. Yes, the alternator should be able to suffuciently recover the battery in 10 minutes, Keep the engine from dead idling and press down on the gas pedal so that RPM's are around 1200-1500. This will assure that there is suffucient charge going back into the battery. Keep in mind that if during those 10 minutes you have the heater on full blast, heated seats on, listening to the radio, wipers on etc all at the same time then no, 10 minutes will not be enough.

Somewhat timely and related. I just returned from a very quick trip north about 550 miles from the Canada/US border. On the way up, the highway was closed for just shy of 2 hours due to a rockslide. The outside temps were around -8F. I ran the car for about 5-7 minutes at a time with the heater fan on medium and it warmed enough to be comfortable for me in a T-shirt, light unlined jacket and pants for about 20 minutes at a time or so. On the otherhand, my girlfriend was cold and bundled up in an extra sweater and had the wool blanket wrapped around her lower half. The starting of the car routine was repeated over the 2 hours and we could hear slight variations of it up and down the line of cars as we waited. Mind you, it appeared that some vehicles did not get turned off at all during this time and I thought more then once that someone may run out of gas and the spare 3 gallons in the trunk of our car would bring about some easy $$$ for us (our gas tank was filled about 40 miles back previous) but no car ran out...

One last point on this above question. Many fleet vehicles such as delivery trucks/cars do a lot of stop/start of the engine of short durations during the day and they do not have any trouble over the long term that would be comparable to your question.


Q) Anyone up north with an ammeter/voltmeter equipped car to determine how long it takes for the voltage regulator to click off from the high charge rate?

A) Way too many variables such as ambient temps, car alternator manufacturer, charging capacity etc,


Q) Related would be how long it takes warmed motor oil to reach a viscosity that produces undue drag on the starter motor.

A) Depends on temperature, oil viscosity, engine type: aluminium or iron, is the car in a garage or out in the driveway. Any engine will start much easier even if it has been off for 2 hours @ -20 as compared to an engine that has sat overnight at the same temperatures without a start.
Posted by: Famdoc

Re: Creating heat inside a stuck vehicle - 01/29/11 02:43 AM

How about using "Hot Hands"?
As far as I know, these release no dangerous gases.
A supply of these will keep a body warm enough for long enough to last through just about any unscheduled stoppage.
They seem to have a long shelf life.
They can be bought in bulk for about a buck a pair, sometimes less.
I would guess they could even be used to warm drinks and food.