State laws on knives (NYT article)

Posted by: TimDex

State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/05/10 02:47 AM

Article in the NY Times on state laws on knives. From the photo, I am, as a NY state resident, apparently breaking the law...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/05/us/05knives.html?pagewanted=1&hp

TW
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/05/10 04:15 AM

It's hard even to imagine that such a raid happened in America. Pretty soon, people will want to ban all self-defense classes that teach how to protect yourself effectively. When there's nothing left, chefs will be forced to use dull knives in the kitchen. In order to stay sane, I have to be in denial about how lame many people in power are.
Posted by: Jesselp

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 02:29 PM

This article hits close to home, as I live just outside of NYC. It inspired me to make a donation to Knife Rights.
Posted by: Tyber

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 02:32 PM

This is a great article and an even better win for the Knife Rights group!!

Thank you to all of you who work so hard to keep us who see knives as tools and not weapons viewed in the eye of the law as tools and not weapons.
Posted by: haertig

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 03:52 PM

I certainly don't look at my EDC knife as a weapon (currently a Spyderco Native). If I were down to only that pocket knife for defense, I figure I'd be a goner. Mostly, my Native serves very mundane duties - typically just cutting open bags of horse feed. Not a very glamorous life for the Spyderco. Nothing like the excitement of raping and pillaging like the knives in NY must be doing.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 05:16 PM

I too have never used a knife as a self-defense tool. I have used a knife as a tool for cooking, fishing, cutting open boxes, etc. However, I don't blame anybody who carries a knife for self-defense and for nothing else. By the way, I'm 37. I would not be able to out box (or outrun) the 21-year-old version of me. I would need a tool to cheat and defend myself. A knife is always on me, so that may have to do.
Posted by: chaosmagnet

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: IzzyJG99
Florida is becoming quite a problem state for EDCing anything other than a pair of nail clippers. The law is super vague and says that "common pocket knives" are okay. This law hasn't been updated since 1951 and way too open for interpretation by police officers with bad attitude problems. I've switched up to just carrying a MT or SAK on a belt pouch.


My understanding is that the Florida's Concealed Weapons License allows handguns, knives, and other weapons.

This doesn't mean that I think the law shouldn't be changed -- I think any competent adult should be allowed to safely carry whatever sharp objects they choose.
Posted by: HerbG

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 09:03 PM

An article about knives or guns in the NY Times and no editorial slant? I can hardly believe it!
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 10:04 PM

Well, kind of. The photo caption says "illegal knives" when, at least based on my eyesight, many appear to merely be normal folders not gravity knives or switchblades. OK, so maybe I'm splitting hairs, but the paper is offering a conclusion about the knives not merely "just the facts" information.

HJ
Posted by: Paul810

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
Well, kind of. The photo caption says "illegal knives" when, at least based on my eyesight, many appear to merely be normal folders not gravity knives or switchblades. OK, so maybe I'm splitting hairs, but the paper is offering a conclusion about the knives not merely "just the facts" information.

HJ


According to the way NYC interprets their law, the knives pictures ARE considered gravity knives/switchblades.

That's the whole issue here. People are buying and carrying the typical one-handed opening locking knives that are sold all over the place, then getting arrested in NYC for carrying a switchblade/gravity knife. Guys that carry locking razor blades for their work are getting arrested and charged.
Posted by: dweste

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/06/10 11:58 PM

Unless your job reasonably requires you to carry a knife, consider an urban EDC that is as close to knife-free as you can stand. You just do not want to get caught carrying in some technicality or in any of the many zero tolerance zones.

My sole point is to try to let the other guy be the test case.

Yes, this is a limitation of certain freedoms. Yes, there will continue to be test cases and activity in the courts and legislatures. Yes, I fall on the side of clear and reasonable knife laws.

But unless it is your passion and you have the bankroll to play the game, I hope all you folks mostly just "read all about it!"
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 12:23 AM

Originally Posted By: dweste
Unless your job reasonably requires you to carry a knife, consider an urban EDC that is as close to knife-free as you can stand. You just do not want to get caught carrying in some technicality or in any of the many zero tolerance zones.

My sole point is to try to let the other guy be the test case.

Yes, this is a limitation of certain freedoms. Yes, there will continue to be test cases and activity in the courts and legislatures. Yes, I fall on the side of clear and reasonable knife laws.

But unless it is your passion and you have the bankroll to play the game, I hope all you folks mostly just "read all about it!"


The problem is that the most of the knives in the pic are already about as neutered as possible for a practical knife. So, you might as well advise someone not to carry any blade at all.
Posted by: TimDex

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 12:47 AM

My reaction to this, is that if you are in any doubt at all about your legal jeopardy, is that you should carry a Swiss Army Knife. There are some good substantial ones, and I think any judge and jury would laugh any case out of court. I would hope a prosecutor would just not prosecute a case against someone with a SAK.

It's a joke I know, but I guess you have to deal with fools such as they are until the law gets clarified.

Tim
Posted by: Bingley

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 01:10 AM

Quote:
According to the way NYC interprets their law, the knives pictures ARE considered gravity knives/switchblades.

That's the whole issue here. People are buying and carrying the typical one-handed opening locking knives that are sold all over the place, then getting arrested in NYC for carrying a switchblade/gravity knife. Guys that carry locking razor blades for their work are getting arrested and charged.


Can someone in NYC confirm this? I lived there for more than a decade, carrying various types of knives, and even had occasions to compare knives with cops. Neither I nor any other knife-carrying New Yorkers I knew got arrested for this. Some of these people were carrying clearly tactical knives barely within the legal limit (as I understood it). Now as I write this I recall, years ago, checking with a police officer, who clearly knew the difference between a folder and a gravity knife or a switchblade. But that was ten yeas ago.

I am inclined to think that the person who wrote the caption for the picture could not tell a legal folder from a switchblade. Either that, or the image was "for illustrative purposes only." (BTW, unless I'm mistaken, I see one or two switchblades in the picture.)

-- Da Bing
Posted by: Russ

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 01:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Bingley
. . .Can someone in NYC confirm this? I lived there for more than a decade, carrying various types of knives, and even had occasions to compare knives with cops. . . .
That was then, this is now.
Quote:
. . .District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. of Manhattan announced in June that his office had pressured retail stores that were selling illegal knives to remove them from their shelves, forfeit profits from the knives made over the last four years and help finance a campaign to educate people against illegal knives.

¶ “What makes these knives so dangerous is the ease with which they can be concealed and brandished,” Mr. Vance said of the illegal switchblades and gravity knives, which require a wrist flip to open instead of a switchblade’s spring, that were bought by undercover agents.

¶ Mr. Vance’s offensive drew the ire of the American Knife and Tool Institute, which issued an “action alert” and offered to assist New York retailers and individuals charged with knife violations with their legal defenses. . . .

Regardless of how we feel, Vance is the DA in Manhattan and he's pushing this crusade. We need push back to ensure it's not a done deal.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 01:52 AM

I just had to see a pic of this DA who's causing headaches.
http://manhattanda.org/officeoverview/bio.shtml

Quote:

Biography of Cyrus R. Vance, Jr.

Cyrus R. Vance, Jr., became District Attorney of New York County on January 1, 2010. Mr. Vance is a recognized leader in criminal justice reform and proposed a compelling vision for moving the District Attorney's Office forward, with a focus on crime prevention.

Mr. Vance began his legal career as an Assistant District Attorney in the Manhattan DA's Office during the high-crime era of the 1980’s. As an ADA, Mr. Vance handled cases involving murder, organized crime, political corruption, and white-collar crime. After leaving the DA’s Office, Mr. Vance and his wife Peggy McDonnell moved to Seattle, where Mr. Vance co-founded McNaul Ebel Nawrot Helgren & Vance, PLLC, which under his joint leadership became one of the pre-eminent litigation firms in the Northwest. During his time in Seattle, Mr. Vance taught trial advocacy as an adjunct professor at Seattle University School of Law.

Mr. Vance returned to New York in 2004 and became a partner at Morvillo, Abramowitz, Grand, Iason, Anello & Bohrer, P.C. Mr. Vance is a Fellow of the American College of Trial Lawyers. He served by appointment of the Governor of New York as a member of the New York State Appellate Division, First Department, Judicial Screening Panel, and was a member of the New York State Commission on Sentencing Reform. Mr. Vance previously served as a member of the Criminal Justice Council of the New York City Bar Association, the Federal Bar Council, and the New York Council of Defense Lawyers. He was a member of the Boards of Directors of the Fund for Modern Courts, the Sargent Shriver National Center on Poverty Law, and the Alzheimer's Drug Discovery Foundation.

Mr. Vance was born and raised in Manhattan, and is a graduate of Yale University and Georgetown University Law School. He and his wife live on the Upper West Side, and have two children, both currently in college.
Posted by: Bingley

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Russ

That was then, this is now.
[quote]. . .District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. of Manhattan announced in June that his office had pressured retail stores that were selling illegal knives to remove them from their shelves, forfeit profits from the knives made over the last four years and help finance a campaign to educate people against illegal knives.

¶ “What makes these knives so dangerous is the ease with which they can be concealed and brandished,” Mr. Vance said of the illegal switchblades and gravity knives, which require a wrist flip to open instead of a switchblade’s spring, that were bought by undercover agents.


But, my friend, this is no different from before! Switchblades, gravity knives, and assisted opening knives were/are illegal to carry. (I never looked into the legality of ownership or selling those knives.) The quote doesn't say anything about folders. I'm no lawyer, but it seems they might just be enforcing laws that were already in the books. (Of course, maybe it's not illegal to sell, purchase, or own these switchblades and gravity knives, though it's illegal to carry them, but the authorities just want to take them out of circulation altogether.)

The article doesn't seem to have bothered with explaining legal vs. illegal knives! Otherwise why are we all so confused? Anyway, it would seem to me the best route is not to overreact, but know the local laws and play it safe. (I would point out that a Swiss Army Knife is not always a safe bet.) Don't get legal advice from a bunch of guys online either.

-- Da Bing
Posted by: Russ

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 02:12 AM

Bing -- I'm not confused. The difference is the DA, not the laws and not the knives. The DA is on a campaign and redefining a switchblade/gravity blade. Knives we have been using and which would be legal in any other jurisdiction are being referred to by a term which makes them illegal -- even if they are not. Political posturing IMO.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 02:41 AM

Bing, California has similar language in their restriction of knives. However, it's widely understood that all the folders sold at the Walmart and Big5 stores in California can be carried concealed legally. There is a defined distinction between switch blades (and the like) and legal assisted opening knives. The difference is defined in the Penal Code and further defined in the case law.

In this New York situation, I believe it is the DA that is the difference. I believe the DA would get schooled in court, but in the mean time the DA gets to up his stats on arrests in order to advance politically. "Hey, the new DA surely is making us safe with the increased arrests." If he later gets schooled in court, it will only make him look even better politically because that would simply mean more press for his cause.
Posted by: Bingley

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 02:56 AM

Alright, I did a bit more research, and it looks like the American Knife and Tool Institute has some facts:

http://www.akti.org/action/new-york-city-knife-confiscation-case-2010

See especially:

http://www.akti.org/action/call-to-actio...-from-retailers

Let me quote: "What the DA is not telling the public is that his office’s interpretation of a gravity knife is ANY folding knife that can be opened with one hand – no matter how difficult." None of the news articles make this point plain, leading most people (like me) to think that we'd be OK with our folders.

It seems that this is a way for the DA to score some political points for his next election, and most of all get millions of dollars from retailers. I doubt the average policeman on the street is all that concerned about little knives, but it would be advisable to exercise caution lest you be made an example. We can write all the letters we want, but I suspect money talks in this situation, and those million dollar fines talk loud.

Good thing the DA is on the side of the law. He would have done well on the other side, too.


-- Da Bing
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 03:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Bingley
Good thing the DA is on the side of the law. He would have done well on the other side, too.


Huh?

EDIT: Oh, I get it.
Posted by: Frisket

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/07/10 09:15 PM

If anyone else hasn't noticed 99% of them knives in that picture are From a company called Fury Sporting Cutlery. They produce some of thee worst knives every made in the history of the world for little to no cash. Id outlaw those specific brand knives personally but thats just me being way to observant and off topic of the real situation at hand lol The picture is prolly not of actual knives jacked from stores but most likely the cheapest knives possibly found to make a photoshoot. Tho these knives from Fury are highly popular amongst tourist trap stores for they can easily jack the prices on actual 5$ or less knives to 20-25$ without a common man knowing the difference. I have actually seen it done in a particular chain of stores on vacation very sad. Any who back to topic for yall!

PS Most of the fury knives are like 1-2 inch blades.... so yeah thats most likely the smaller of the bucks in that corner there.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 12:57 AM

Originally Posted By: HerbG
An article about knives or guns in the NY Times and no editorial slant? I can hardly believe it!


What seem to mean is that their slant, this time and on this particular issue, coincides with your own. Or are you going to claim objectivity?
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 01:10 AM

This reminds of how, in San Francisco, Mayor Newsom and then DA Kamala Harris did a similar thing with respect to guns. They got their asses handed to them in court. It didn't matter. If anything, the staged crack down on crime helped them out politically. Now, Harris is the Attorney General of California. Go figure.
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 03:32 AM

I'm not familiar with what Newsome and Harris did. Do you have a link?

HJ
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 04:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
I'm not familiar with what Newsome and Harris did. Do you have a link?

HJ


http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-06-28/news/17163802_1_housing-authority-public-housing-gun
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=4347

Mayor Newsom held a news conference to broadcast his defiance of the court's decision to remove the gun ban. The city lost the case, but the publicity helped Newsom and Harris. These articles don't mentioned Kamala Harris, but she was the DA at the time. I recall her being on the news smugly indicating the city would win this case.
Posted by: Mark_R

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 04:05 AM

Originally Posted By: ireckon
This reminds of how, in San Francisco, Mayor Newsom and then DA Kamala Harris did a similar thing with respect to guns. They got their asses handed to them in court. It didn't matter. If anything, the staged crack down on crime helped them out politically. Now, Harris is the Attorney General of California. Go figure.


Are you referring to the 2005 SF handgun ban or the 2007 Cow Palace gun sales ban?
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 04:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark_R
Originally Posted By: ireckon
This reminds of how, in San Francisco, Mayor Newsom and then DA Kamala Harris did a similar thing with respect to guns. They got their asses handed to them in court. It didn't matter. If anything, the staged crack down on crime helped them out politically. Now, Harris is the Attorney General of California. Go figure.


Are you referring to the 2005 SF handgun ban or the 2007 Cow Palace gun sales ban?


That's another one. The case I was thinking about was the one I just mentioned above.
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 04:28 AM

Do you have any links to what you're referencing?

HJ
Posted by: Mark_R

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 04:36 AM

Bing I don't know how far back you've gone in this forum, but Kniferights.org already had a semi-successfull outcome with one of the knife arrests.

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=212060&page=1

I'm not entirely sure why the DA backed down. If I were in his shoes I would wait till I had a career criminal instead of a first time offender with a legitimate reason to go after. It would be risky setting a precedent with a "good guy" defendent.
Posted by: Mark_R

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 04:46 AM

2005 handgun ban
http://www.smartvoter.org/2005/11/08/ca/sf/meas/H/
http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-06-12/ne...ts-nra-s-lawyer

2007 Cow Palace gun sales ban

http://www.baycitizen.org/crime/story/gun-show-returns-cow-palace-despite/
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 05:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
Do you have any links to what you're referencing?

HJ


I provided two links above.
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 06:19 AM

Thank you, Mark.

HJ
Posted by: ireckon

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 05:25 PM

HJ, were you not asking me for links?
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Bingley
Alright, I did a bit more research, and it looks like the American Knife and Tool Institute has some facts:

http://www.akti.org/action/new-york-city-knife-confiscation-case-2010

See especially:

http://www.akti.org/action/call-to-actio...-from-retailers

Let me quote: "What the DA is not telling the public is that his office’s interpretation of a gravity knife is ANY folding knife that can be opened with one hand – no matter how difficult." None of the news articles make this point plain, leading most people (like me) to think that we'd be OK with our folders.

It seems that this is a way for the DA to score some political points for his next election, and most of all get millions of dollars from retailers. I doubt the average policeman on the street is all that concerned about little knives, but it would be advisable to exercise caution lest you be made an example. We can write all the letters we want, but I suspect money talks in this situation, and those million dollar fines talk loud.

Good thing the DA is on the side of the law. He would have done well on the other side, too.
-- Da Bing


Just to be clear, only Knife Rights Foundation is actively opposing DA Vance in court, contrary to what was reported in the NY Times article, and AKTI has declined to support this effort. Some industry members of AKTI are supporting us, however. All the details are at www.KnifeRights.org
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 08:27 PM

Well, a victory of sorts. It was basically an administrative dismissal. No precedent was established, and the DA continues to distort the definition of "switchblade" and "gravity knife" such that he can seize anything he pleases as well as shake down companies for "contributions" to his "educational" fund.

HJ
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) - 12/08/10 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: ireckon
HJ, were you not asking me for links?
Yes, I was. I thank you for the links that you posted as well.

HJ