Be aware of tent fires!

A horrible accident in Salangen, Norway just a few days ago.

Grandmother, grandfather and four grandchildren having a great time, sleeping in their big comfy canvas tent. The grandfather awoke early and brought the gas stove outside to make his morning coffee in the crisp, beautiful weather. He does not know that the gas canister has leaked over the night, filling the tent with explosive gas mixture, as is the air close to the ground just outside the tent. When he lit up the stove - instant explosion which then instantly set fire to basically anything flammable - in particular the canvas tent and 5 synthetic sleeping bags with sleeping persons.

The grandfather did anything he could, cut the burning tent open, immersed himself into the flames and tried to do whatever he could. I don't know what exactly, but stuff like rolling sleeping bags out into the snow and try to cut burning sleeping bags off his grand children and wife comes to mind. The more I think of it, the more horrible the images in my mind. That grand father (55) died last night. His wife and four of their grand children are all treated for severe and life threatening burns. The list in medical terms:
Boy, 4, critical and unstable.
Girl, 6, critical but stable.
Girl, 9, critical and unstable.
Boy, 12, critical and unstable.
Wife, 55, critical but stable.


Their tent was pitched almost literary on the porch of the closest of several vacation homes, many of those in use over the weekend. They provided almost instantaneous help and called in the police and ambulance. I don't think any camper could have received better, quicker and more adequate response. Several of the responding neighbors have paramedic training, and as they were real close they came almost instantly. Local police and emergency response was shuttled with snow mobiles to the site. Short distances made responses real quick, with the exception of the rescue helicopter. (2 hours to arrive, but that chopter has to cover quite a distance to get there.


Let this be a warning to us all:
Synthetic materials and canvas burns quick, ignites easily and the damages are horrific. Particular a synthetic sleeping bag is a death trap. You need to take this seriously.

Consider putting the gas canisters outside the tent when you sleep. This will prevent gas buildup in the sleeping area. (You probably won't notice the smell of propane when you wake up, because you will have gotten used to the smell, so you ignore it).

Take care that all connections are either fully and tightly coupled or fully disconnected. For the tragic case above, the most likely cause is a halfway screwed connection between the gas canister and the stove.

Don't rely on the gas canister valve to work - at night, put it outside.

Keep sharp knives at hand whenever dealing with the combination of fire and tent.

Link to a reasonably OK news article:
Link (google translate)

Propane is a very dangerous fuel.
It is even worse than natural gas because propane is heavier than air and sinks to any low spots and stays.
At least natural gas floats up and away.

There are reams of safety information and advice everywhere about propane and we still have people blow themselves up with it every year.
In construction we don't even allow the stuff inside winter enclosures with heaters and we apply distance limits to buildings for it.

The valve on the bottle does not even need to fail for a leak to happen. It could be from a blown out pilot light or from an appliance valve being left on.

Oddly enough we consider it safe enough to use on forklifts in warehouses.

The grandfather broke a couple of extra rules too.
Propane stoves are not meant to be used inside. The same with the coleman fuel stoves.

This is a horrible tragedy.
My formative camping experiences were in the Scouts, and it was so ingrained in us never to have open flames or fuel in or near our tents that this boggles my mind. We used propane, but the cooking areas were always a minimum of 20' from sleeping areas, and no fuel or cooking equipment was ever stored in the tents. I guess people naturally want to protect their gear from the elements, but just as keeping food in a tent in bear country, I can't fathom keeping a camp stove in a tent.

That is terribly sad. Thoughts and prayers for the survivors and the grandfather's poor soul.

Never occurred to me to store propane in my tent.

Maybe he was concerned the stove and fuel would be stolen if left outside.

How dangerous is it to store propane canisters in an attached garage?

I wouldn't but I also live on acreage and have a well-ventilated shed that's a good distance from other buildings. If you have any place, even leaving them outside it would be safer. I have 4 of the 20Ibs canisters and usually leave one next to my grill year round, the grill is covered but not the canister and weather hasn't affected it. I don't exchange my tanks as my local farm store re-fills them at less cost than exchanging them so at least one of mine has spent a good deal of time outside with no damage outside of a little rust.

I have a camping grill that takes the one pound canisters and after leaving them in the shed for a five or six years or maybe more, some seemed to be empty so they may have leaked, which would make me a little nervous about them in an enclosed garage.

Not at all. This is one of those close knit "everyone knows everybody" communities. Fear of someone stealing equipment left outside the tent is not a factor.


I cook inside tents, in particular when the weather is bad in the winter time. I am fully aware of the risks, and I do take what I consider adequate precautions. In fair weather I enjoy cooking outside. I think I share this attitude with lots of people who enjoy winter camping. Still, this is not something I recommend - it is all about personal responsibility and evaluating personal skills, risks and rewards.

As stated above, the leaking of propane is a special risk that you need to take seriously. It turns out it was used a 11 kg (25 pound) bottle that was left in the cold pit of the large tent (a lavvu, which is the sami version of tipi). Most likely the coupling between the bottle and the stove was only half-way on, enabling propane to seep out through the night, filling the cold pit and also seeping out into all low lying areas nearby. Conditions was apparently just right for that propane to go WROFF and ignite the tent and anything flammable inside it. In my view, your regular gas canister has plenty enough fuel to replicate this particular accident, so don't think you're safe because you don't drag 11 kg bottles of propane with you on camping trips.

But the lessons goes beyond propane. Even a trangia stove can cause havoc if you're clumsy - my pet scenario with those is filling a still burning stove (invisible flame), have the flames leap into the fuel bottle and then either have an explosion or spill burning fuel just about everywhere. White gas and paraffin stoves can produce really spectacular fire balls (so can a propane stove if you feed it liquid propane without knowing what you're dealing with). White gas fuel leaks are particular volatile. Wood stoves can throw sparks. Any stove can tip over. And so on and so forth. No matter the stove, synthetic sleeping bags and clothing ignite very easily, burn hot and melt into the skin.

I'm confused, in the original account it states "... The grandfather awoke early and brought the gas stove outside..." if the stove was outside how did it ignite the tent inside?

And if the stove was being used outside, what does that have to do with the storage of propane tanks in a garage?

However it occurred, it's a tragedy.

That is really sad.
Gas is very convenient, but we also have to be very careful.
I always leave the gas items in the truck, never in the tent when I camp.

Propane gas lying stagnant at the ground, outside of the tent. In a crisp clear winter morning there's not air much movement. Lighting the stove set the outside propane on fire, which set the nearby tent + the propane inside the tent on fire + basically anything combustible inside that tent on fire.



After such an event it seems appropriate to discuss safety issues related to propane in general.

There are some obvious similarities, though: Leaking propane inside your house will fill the cellar, and any spark or ignition source will make a big WROF (rapid fire) or KA-BOOM (explosion), possibly destroying the whole house and certainly setting it on fire. Leaking propane in your tent will fill your cold pit and also lie as a low layer close to the ground, where you are sleeping. Any ignition and you have a WROF or KA-BOOM sound that sets the tent and your sleeping bag on fire.

So... the same principles of storage apply for a tent and a house: Outside. Well ventilated.

i take a small Gaz lamp on canoe trips and on cool,damp nites run it in the vestibule of my tent to warm things up.bed time comes around i just turn it off and leave it there.maybe i'll set it outside from now on.

Wow! My daughter just went camping and took our Coleman propane stove. When we were testing it before the trip, I noticed that the bottle of gas did not completely seal when we removed it from the stove. A very faint hiss. I said "No way are you taking this cannister - go buy some new ones." After hearing about this tragedy, I'm sure glad I said that to her now. I put the cannister out about 60 feet from the house, up in a tree (so the dogs wouldn't get to it), and planned for it to eventually leak itself out. But a week later it's still full and the faint hiss has stopped. So it must have finally sealed. I'm not sure how to get rid of this thing. I think I'll hook it up to the Coleman and run both burners on high (lit, of course!) until it empties. This will be done way far out from the house and any people.

The tragedy was caused by propane leaking.

Hence, the question about propane storage.

When I was about 14-15 years old whilst on a 3 star expedition in the mountains of the Isle of Man, I remember seeing a spark from a camp fire float about 20 yards down wind and then make contact with a WW2 British Army Cotton Canvas pup tent. Only the smoldering tent poles were left standing about 25-30 seconds later. Thankfully the 2 cadets inside made it out in time. It might have been a different story if they had been in their 58 Pattern sleeping bags. A synthetic fire resistant tent material would have been a lot less dangerous in this situation as the same spark would have just left a little hole in the material.

But this tragedy with the explosive heat flash over effect of a propane fire sounded extremely nasty. Even a down sleeping bag would have been just as flammable as any synthetic bag filling in this situation.

Perhaps it should be a rule, that when camping that no cooking is performed whilst anyone nearby is still sleeping.

Tragic. I hope they all make it.

About 10 years ago, my neighbor two houses down burned down his entire house. He was using a propane grill in an attached screen porch. The grill flared up and he couldn't react fast enough to remedy the situation.

I was pulling into my driveway just as their house was in full blaze. For the next half hour or so I was up on my own roof putting out flaming sheets of debris that wafted up and landed on my house.

Fortunately nobody was injured or killed.

*shudders* VERY high on the list of things that almost scares IronRaven out of his wool socks.

If there was a leak, it didn't even have to be in the tent, but outside. As others pointed out, propane is heavier than air, and could have even been trapped in a pocket under the tent. One static spark, and FWOMP!

Nylon and polypro are great things, but never forget that they are petrochem products that we think of solids, but they are fluids like glass is. Wait, the other high viscosity petrochem product most of us know of if napalm. I use lots of nylon, but I never forget what it is.

You know... My BoB has two small butane/propane cannisters in it, and it lives under my bed. Under the head of my bed. Great.....

Yup, I'm finding myself wearing a lot more wool. I'd love a wool liner for my mostly/entirely synthetic sleeping bags.

Yeah, better to leave it outside. There was an incident in Malaysia a few years ago where two hikers died of carbon monoxide poisoning, when one of them brought a gaz lamp into the tent during the night.

For me it is all about knowing what I'm dealing with and take the adequate precautions, mitigating the risks to an acceptable level.

Unless you plan to ask permission from your neighbors, there is a certain ethical element to storing fuel in an apartment complex. On a practical perspective, I can think of at least one way of handling the risk of leaking canisters inside an apartment (think plastic crate with propane detector at the bottom). But in case of a fire I would not want fire fighters to search my apartment: The canisters WILL go KA-BOOM when the fire reaches them. The blast should not be big enough to cause major structural damage (unless you try to confine it inside a small box), but no way I'm putting fire fighters in risk of being inside the blast zone while searching my apartment. Fire fighters will search anywhere humanly possible until proven empty. Sorry, apartment dwellers, I see no way around this.

There are all sorts of everyday household items that go boom in a fire. Think aerosol cans, although fuel containers are certainly worse. I would like to hear from some of our professional fire folks about this general hazard.

There are several major pop festivals each year in the UK. One or two if them are probably worth going to.

However, they have stringent no knife rules and that includes SAK's and Multitool's. When it comes to tent's, well I've seen sardine tins with less in the same space.

Whole thing is, IMHO, a tragedy waiting to happen...

If you want to just get rid of the bottle, get a new Coleman bottle, they come with a little green plastic valve opener (it is in the cap) you just stick it in the opening and it holds the valve open until all of the gas has escaped. They are now provided so you can place the bottle out for recycling, it ensures that the bottle is empty.

Pete

I just checked the new Coleman bottles that my daughter bought after I told her she could use the old ones. Sure enough, there is some little green thing in the new caps. Thanks for the tip.

That's one of the reasons I prefer other things over the gas stoves. I would rather cook on something that uses wood as a fuel or on candle with multiple knots. I know that stoves are probably more effective but sometimes it's not worth it.

Horrible accident. I hope those who survived will be OK.

Those 1lb ones are getting very annoying, every time I remove them from the stove they leak, its gotten to where the whole 1lb gets used every time we cook with one because it all leaks out afterward. I haven't bought any in a while been limiting food to cold sandwiches or cooked over an open fire.

I much prefer refillable containers for propane and when I connected them, I always (well, usually...well, most of the time) tested for a leak with soapy water. Some intrepid souls test with an open flame. That method also will let you know if the connection is leaking....

Know any decent 1lb size refillable. I'm assuming if I get a coupe of those I could get one of those adapters to fill them from 20lb tanks.

I've seen more than one appliance repairman check for leaks that way on a just re-connected natural gas line. Assuming there hasn't been time for any build-up, I guess it's safe enough.

But it does seem a little Darwin Award-ish.

I've seen the "professionals" check with a flame too, thats why I do things myself.

Interesting how the smaller propane jar leaks. I found out the other day my propane jar for the torch wouldn't close properly and hiss a bit, so I had to reinstall the torch head repeatedly until it doesn't hiss. I thought it was just that one but looks like it's more common than I thought. The butane can for either refill lighter or stove never leaks thou.

Going to be very cautious about this from now on.

I've been wondering the same thing. I recently bought a propane Coleman camp stove (that runs on the 1lb canisters). Would it be possible (or safe) to refill those canisters from a 20lb tank using an adapter like this one from Harbor Freight?

-Robert

My approach to the situation is to run my Coleman stuff off of a refillable 20 or 10 lb tank. The propane is much cheaper and more abundant that way. I can also run a lantern and or other appliances at the same time. I thereby avoided the recycling issues that used to plague these tiny containers, although apparently that is now remedied. Naturally, be sure to check the integrity of all connections before lighting up, unlike the unfortunate gentleman whose problems started this thread.


The one pound propane container is neither fish nor fowl. It is too heavy for backpacking and too small for car camping. When weight is important, I go with isobutane cartridges or alcohol stoves. When car camping, I like refillable tanks. I have a few one pounders in storage, but I don't depend upon them. After reading about leakage issues earlier in this thread, I am even less inclined to use them.

The adapter that I use to run my larger tanks on connections built for the one pound tanks looks very similar to the gadget pictured in the Harbor Freight link. I am scratching my head about just how that thing works, especially how it gets any adequate pressure in the smaller tank, not that I am anxious to find out.

I have heard people say they do it, but with all the newer 1lb tanks leaking with every use i wouldn't want to try it.

I like the 1lb for small day trips. Drive a couple hours to a state park, pop out the 1lb and mini grill and cook lunch and maybe dinner before driving home.

Simple physics: greater pressure in the larger tank causes fuel to flow to the smaller one until the pressures are equal.

You should get slightly less than a full "refill" in the small tank the first several times, with progressively smaller amounts after that.

(That's math speaking above, not actual experience. )

Do your homework on what pressure the small tank is supposed to handle and what the pressure in the big one actually is...

If the difference between those two numbers is too great you need some kind of pressure reduction valve - or a good guestimate of how many seconds you can leave the connection open before the pressure in the small one gets to dangerous levels.

I don't know about the specific tanks you're thinking of refilling. Coleman propane tanks looks quite robust to me, if that's what you have in mind. Those flimsy light weight canisters (butane / propane mixture) is a totally different ball park - their pressure is MUCH lower than tanks for pure propane.

I am sorry, I meant wicks. Knot = wick in my native language .