Dogs

*First, sorry if this is already an existing thread, I searched the topic first and didn't turn anything up*

We all have our favorite breeds. Mine is the doberman. My husband likes german shepherds. Some like a good ole mutt.

Scenario:

Some disaster, you have to leave your home for whatever reason. You live in a smallish town, not near any major cities. The disaster is likely to end up being long term. You have children, minimal survival skills, no hunting or trapping skills. The environment is pretty average, you have four seasons temperatures don't get too extreme one way or the other.

What's your dog breed of choice?

*Please consider factors like: kid friendly, travels well, protective (this can be intimidation factor but actual protective nature is important), a breed that would be useful, and not just another mouth to feed- example*

My Samoyed is the next best thing to a sleeping bag. Putting your hands into her double-coated fur is better than mittens.

She can pull me for several miles on a bike or scooter and carry her own pack. She's big enough to offer some protection. Nobody and nothing will sneak past her, night or day. And she knows her way around hotel lobbies.

But she's not a hunter or retriever so she's not going to pull her own weight food-wise.

Whatever breed the pup will need training to be useful. I suppose a dog that can catch a rabbit would be nice.

Then I'll have to train them to skin it, gut it and saute it. And share it.

Welcome to ETS, Krista!

People who study these sorts of things have noted that dogs that do well without direct human intervention and survive long term on their own tend to be short-haired, mid-sized and mixed breed. The mid-sized, all-American, mutts have a lot going for them in terms of biological fitness and adaptability.

I think the breed is less important than the integration with your pack.

And, when it comes characteristics, I think integration with your lifestyle and situation is probably most important.

For example, not everyone's lifestyle is conducive to providing the exercise level and mental stimulation of some breeds.

The gotcha is this can be a mixed bag. For example, we have a rescued Rottweiler, who is really mellow which makes her easy to live with. But... When we go hiking, she seems to feel we are on a death march, where our Chesapeake Bay Retriever, who is a high energy (and needs a lot of exercise and stimulation) is all perky and ready for any adventure.

All of our dogs have been good watch dogs and IMO this is one of the most beneficial characteristics. Personally, I think it is ultimately the human's role to provide for the defense of the pack, but the dog provides a huge advantage in terms deterrence, of threat detection and distraction to allow for humans to get up to speed.

Some dogs can provide a role in actual defense, but I think it takes either some very specific personality traits, or training, or both. I think many dogs, despite issuing serious verbal warnings, ultimately defer to humans as superior and are unlikely to *fully commit* to defense against a human.

Defense against other animals is a lot more common.

Of course, typically guarding behavior is pretty much the opposite of getting along well with others (outside of your pack) if you are traveling.

In regard to traveling well, I think this all comes down to practice. If you take your dog everywhere and let it experience lots of different things and places from the time it was a pup, it will probably travel well. If it stays at home almost all the time, probably not.

In the end, I'm pretty open to most working breeds, and I think dogs are most happy when they have a job -- even if it is retrieving the ball and working dogs even more so.

I don't really mean to dodge your question, but I think both of the breeds you have are pretty good candidates given proper socialization and training and exposure.

The reality is there are always trade offs, and each dog is an individual, but most dogs will provide you the invaluable service of making sure you know something is going on in your house or camp, and most dogs, well socialized and trained and integrated with your pack, will enrich your lives.

-john

The smartest dogs I ever saw were the ones on the Navajo Reservation, decidedly mixed breeds who were smart and healthy.

I have had 3 German Shepherds and cannot say enough superlatives about them. They are the best all around companion and protective, loyal family dog that I have experienced. There was never a worry about someone coming onto our property without the dog letting us know well in advance. When confronted, the GSD will stand their ground and are not easily intimidated or tricked.

They have a great all weather coat that allows them to be outside in the cold weather for extended periods of time. When we lived up north, One of the GSD we had, loved the cold and snow. We were always reluctant to let him outside in -30F weather for any length of time but he did not mind and his fav spot was laying in the snow covered driveway and watching the world go by.

During the spring/summer/fall the GSD's were very good at keeping the bears out of the yard and also herding the occasional cows or moose off the property any time of the year.

Like any dog, buying A GSD from a reputable breeder who breeds working lines is a must. Vigorous daily exercise is required to keep these dogs in peak condition both physically and mentally.

Love my standard poodle.

Smarter than anyone can imagine, hair can be for winter or summer, hunting dog, will point out game and alert upon suspicious intruder or sound. He loves to run, and be outside or curl up next to you (or on you) as close as he can be.

Not to mention it's great for someone allergic to dogs like me

I'd want the biggest dog I could find - get 2 or 3 meals out of him.

Dagny- Your dogs are so gorgeous! My dog looks like a miniature more dirty version of those, lol. He’s a mix… Kind of looks like Falcor from “the neverending story” too. I suspect in an emergency my dog would essentially be another kid to look after!

Art- I agree for sure… mutts have to be tough to make it out there! I love my old mutt-dog, he's been with me since he was a pup, about 8 or 9 years!

JohnN- Thank you for pointing out the differences in a dog’s personality. That’s something I hadn’t really thought of (as I only have one dog for the last 8 years).

Todd- I think standard poodles are also at the very top of the intelligence list too, aren’t they?

Fasteer- While googling information about dogs that are well equipped for survival, I came across a dog called the Caucasian shepherd. It looks like the size of a small bear, and I’m sure it would feed you for a week in addition to providing a nice warm fur coat!!

I've raised a two Samoyeds from pups and rescued two more (one 13 year old and another youngster who is now not so young) through the northern Illinois Sammie rescue group.

From what I understand, they are one of the oldest breeds (unchanged) known.

I can't say enough good things about them IF you don't mind some white haze on your carpeting.

From what I gather talking with my buddy who has labs, the Sammie hair is actually easier to deal with than the lab hair. Since it is mostly the soft fluffy undercoat it is easier to pick up with a vacuum.

Smart, kind, and clean are the first thoughts that come to mind.

The other thing is that they have very little odor when wet - when they get wet they actually tend to smell like the shampoo you last used.

I would want a dog based on the following characteristics:

Smaller than average. I won't be relying on the dog as a primary defensive tool, so no attack dogs. Also, smaller dogs require less food to maintain.

Built for the outdoors. Breeds that are primarly outdoors dogs.

Herding dogs. They have more intuitive sense of how to act around other animals. They don't just go after and engage threats, but will alert on them, and they won't just chase down game but will try to control them. They understand teamwork pretty easily. They seem to be able to read human actions and intentions pretty well, including strangers. They make excellent guard dogs. They travel well. Most are good with familiar children.

So for this scenario, I think a GSD or a Border Collie or even an Aussie Shepherd would be ideal.

If security were more of a concern, I might go with an Akita. They are a little more guardlike, but still have decent field sense. They can be a bit too aggressive with other animals, though.

Hi Krista,

I've owned (not a breeder) Dobes for close to 40 years and obviously, I love the breed. Dobes are not the breed for most people unless they have the time to train way beyond the basic puppy obedience class. They need to live in the house with their family and just don't have the coat to withstand the elements for any extended period of time.

Like most of the working breeds, Dobes are split between the working and show lines, however, there are a few good breeders breeding for the total Doberman. So I would say the split is less than the GSD's.

Being a working Breed, Dobes do best with a job to do. They excel in obedience, tracking, SAR, agility, biking, service work, therapy and the working sports. With any of the protection breeds and working breeds, it's very important to buy from a breeder who trials, tests and competes with their dogs and understands correct and balanced temperament as there is no way to judge correct temperament from the backyard or the living room couch. Always buy from a breeder who is out there doing something with their dogs.

Dobe puppies are not for the faint of heart as they are VERY ACTIVE and require lots of interactive exercise, socialization, constant supervision and training. On my puppies between 9 weeks and 6 months, I dedicate at least 8 hours per week just socializing them to as many different places, people, sounds and situations as possible. Proper socialization is vital with a high drive protection breed.

Best of luck with your dog search!

I really never thought about a particular breed from a survival point of view, but have almost always have had Labs or Lab mixes. Generally, good family dogs, can be protective, potential use for hunting (if trained) and are large enough to haul a pack if necessary.

Pete

My best hiking buddy is our Lab mix. We have emergency food stashed for her, too, although her tastes are, shall we say, rather undiscriminating. She is pretty good at sounding the alarm around the house, and she would give the bad guys something else to worry about.

FWIW, dogs should primarily be used as early warning devices and visual intimidation for those with ill intent. If you rely on a dog for physical protection, you've already failed. Especially if you care for and have a bond with the animal, which is pretty much essential if they're gonna protect you. If the dog is injured in a physical confrontation with a human or animal attacker, and they will be, the dog will then become a liability. Dogs require a fair amount of maintenance even in good times, and in a grid down scenario maintainig the health of you and your animals will be priority #1. In the proper context, dogs serve a limited, helpful role. Having said that, medium sized mut is the way to go. Of course if you want a real working animal that requires no maintenance, adopt a pack of coyotes. You definitely won't have any rodent problems. Or cat problems for that matter.

I'd take my Beagle. Simple really, you gotta be crazy to own one , and folks leave crazy people alone for the most part .

I'm assuming "taste" isn't one of the criteria?

-Blast, JOKING!!!

According to a relative who roomed in college with an Asian student, they eventually got to know each other well enough that my relative asked him "OK, what kind of dog tastes best?" - after much hemming and hawing, the roomate eventually answered "Big black dog, he taste best"

On a trip to China some years ago, I was served dog at least twice. I soon learned that "don't ask, don't tell" was the most discreet course of action.

No telling what I actually ate.....

I'm afraid I'd be out of luck relying on my dog for survival.



He could carry his own food for 4 or 5 days. And he's really good at hunting voles and field mice. I guess I could survive on that. (what was the movie about the wolf researcher in lived on mice just like the wolves he studied?) He's a pretty good watch dog but once he started after something he'd never come back. Plus I'd need another 3 or 4 of him to stay warm.

And if you think beagles are crazy try a Jack Russell Terrorist, err, Terrier.

Andy

Hi and welcome,

I have known and lived with a lot of dogs, mutts to show dogs. In a survival situation I would lean to working or herding dogs. I loved my Samoyed and he would have been great in a survival situation but in general (based on personal experience) I would probably choose a German Shepherd or a Collie for me and mine. Actually I have chosen a GSD, she is a year old and way to smart for me. Good thing she is a real people pleaser. This one will probably get some advanced training and if it takes she could be my son's home grown assistance dog.

Dogs and humans have a partnership that goes back a long way and any dog breed could be a help in the correct situation, if trained/socialized well. Many breeds have been developed to emphasize specific skills/instincts and the value of those skills will vary by situation. Mutts and a few traditional breeds (GSD and others) are the jacks of all trades of the dog world.

- Eric

I would choose a pack of small dogs rather than one big one. Jack Russells, chihuahuas, beagles- easier to feed, harder to disable, more intensely annoying, pre-packaged in easy-to-prepare single serving size. Flock of geese or guinea hens might be even more effective. If you have one dog, it becomes a fur-baby. If you have a dozen dogs, they remain livestock. A friend from the Phiilipines suggested that dog is strongly flavored, requiring careful seasoning; he also indicated that, after consuming dog, one should avoid dogs for awhile-dogs don't like people who have dog on their breath. He was a kidder, tho, so he may have been exaggerating...

Out in parks with my chocolate Lab, I've had people ask me, "How often do you train him?" My answer: "Every minute I'm with him."

I'm confident enough in my dog (who is a working duck/goose retriever) that I would tell him to sit in front of the Sportsman's Warehouse service desk, then walk off. Ten minutes later, I'd return to get him. The staff loved watching people's reaction as they walked past.

I've seen parents let a child play tug of war with a Lab puppy. I'll ask if they want the dog to retrieve for hours on end. They say yes. When I point out that retrieving requires exactly OPPOSITE behavior from tug of war, they are shocked. Tug of war means hang on; retrieve means go get it, bring it back, then let go. If you want the dog to do something as an adult, you've got to teach the dog to do it when the dog is a puppy.

Some old dogs can learn new tricks, but some can't; but it's much easier to teach a young dog.

No matter what breed you chose, you have to train it. Do NOT let it train you. If you do not have a clue on training, find someone who can train you. It's hard to train a Lab to herd cattle; and it's hard to train a red heeler to retrieve ducks (OK, probably impossible). Decide what you want a dog to do, then find the breed that does that.

If you want a friend, go to the pound and find a dog that steals your heart.

Get the kind of dog you like, suitable for your climate and lifestyle. Research the breeds you like to see if it will be a good fit. Since you're asking this question, you don't want a Border Collie or other high-drive breed like a Belgian Malinois (or possibly any of the other Belgian breeds) -- they're not beginner's dogs.

Train it, NOT using the yell-and-beat method. And that means YOU train it. Don't pass on the care and training of your dog to your teenagers, because it won't get done. If it's going to destroy you to have a puppy knock your 3-yr-old down, don't get any dog.

Most dogs after the age of 5 mos or so discover that they can bark; barking is a good alert and a good warning, but you also have to teach it to stop barking when you say so.

If a disaster occurs and you have to take your family to a shelter, what will you do with your dog? Shelters mostly don't take pets, although that is beginning to change. Plans are necessary.

Your dog needs vaccinations, an ID tag and a microchip, and current photos.

Keep a 'kit' for your dog in a covered tote:
Food
Water
Water/food bowls
Leash and chain tie-out
Bedding
Grooming tools
Plastic bag for picking up droppings
Waterproof container with medical history, rabies vaccination certificate, microchip number and 800 number of chip company database, updated photos, any necessary meds, pet first aid kit (PeptoBismol for diarrhea, upset stomach; unopened hydrogen peroxide to force vomiting; liquid benedryl and syringe for allergy attack, including bee stings. Ask your vet for dosages, pre-figure them and write on the bottle, with attached syringe suitable for the amount.
Toys and treats
Folding crate

Sue

I thought that was what cats are for

Pete

Again Sue comes through with a good wrap-up. I particularly like the concept of some breeds not being beginner dogs. I volunteer with a GSD rescue group and get to see lots of different examples of German Shepherds and GSD mixes.

We had a few puppies come through a few weeks ago that boggles the mind. They appeared to be from European working line dogs and at 3 months showed confidence and alpha traits that would drive anyone looking for a "pet" nuts. With training a good working line GSD can do pretty much anything and still be pleasant around the house IF it has a job to work off its energy in a productive (rather than destructive) manner. But they were so cute and outgoing folks looking for a "puppy" could have been sucked in. Fortunately, they were adopted out to folks who knew what they were getting (a serious handful).

Wow- thanks for all the great input everyone. I'm certainly not in a rush to get another dog, as I love to spoil my one fur-baby, but you have all given me some really good info and opinions to consider when I do "pull the trigger" on getting a second dog.

As said before, research and then get what you want. Personally I have a couple Irish Wolfhounds. They are great for a shock value, and if their "people" are threatened they will defend them, with their lives. They do eat a lot. (8-10 cups of food a day per dog) Their bark is pretty loud (2am jumping outta bed to fend off zombies with ringing ears, and not remembering how you ended up outside in your underwear LOUD ) they are sight hounds, which is a plus and a minus. They are big enough to take down a deer, and strong enough to drag it back to camp. They were originally bred to hunt down and kill wolves. (There are no native wolves in Ireland anymore. yes humans helped) When they go after something, it takes something short of an act of God to call them off. They are gentle giants though, the first male we had let a baby play with his ears pulling and yanking out hair, without complaint (a friend of the family wanted the pic) the average live span is about 7 years, and the breed is plagued with problems (cancer, heart problems, bloat all have happened to my past IW's)

Wolfies would be a great resource, but i look to a historical example. smaller, self reliant dogs were the dominate dog during the time when dogs were part of survival. Native Americans, Settlers, and colonists all had medium to small, tough, self reliant breeds. if i was looking for a dog for a survival situation that would be a part of my factors.

Good posts Russ and Susan, and I'd certainly add Dobes to the list of NOT suitable dogs for beginners. Most of the reputable Dobe breeders will not sell Dobe pups to families with small children unless the family has prior experience with working breeds.

Excellent point from Susan regarding having the emergency kit ready for dogs as well. I keep a kit in the house and my suv.

I always carry Gas-X in the event of suspected bloat. My vet recommends it to potentially buy you a little extra time on the way to emergency.

I keep Kaolin Pectin on hand for use in dogs for minor upsets and diarrhea, rather than Pepto Bismol. Many vets will tell clients that Pepto Bismol is fine to use, but it contains salicylate which can cause irritation and even GI bleeds in some dogs. If I were in an emergency situation where access to a vet might be limited that would be a risk I'd rather not take. It might be fine in 20 dogs, but potentially deadly in the 21st. Not a risk I'd take. Kaolin Pectin can be found in farm stores or by mail order and is usually sold for calf scours. Kaopectate used to be the same formula as Kaolin Pectin until they added salicylate to that as well. Warnings did go out to vets at that time they changed the Kaopectate formula. At farm stores the Kaolin Pectin is usually sold in gallon containers, but it's cheap, lasts a longtime, and can be transfered to smaller containers.

Chocolate Lab ... sounds delicious.

I think that settles it on which dog taste best.

Peach brindle pit bull sounds tasty also.

Art, I would hate to have to eat my dog. BUT (and this is a big but) if it comes down to the dog eating me or me eating the dog, I know my preference!

And I'll bet Shih tzu tastes about like it sounds like it would taste.

+1 regarding the advice to not leave the training to the teenagers. And the point of training it yourself is literal -- just because I can get a dog to do something does not mean you can get the dog to do it.

+1 regarding advice about microchip, vet bills, etc.

Having a dog is an investment that lasts for the dog's life. Do you have the cash flow to pay for incidentals -- flee protection, rawhide bones (how can those cost so much), grooming, etc.

"Chocolate Lab ... sounds delicious."

I have a 'mahogany' Tervuren... needs lots of cooking, I guess.

Sue

I went to a local zoo the other day. All they had on display was a dog. It was a shih tzu.

we use Infant gas relief, or simethicone.

Another thing that comes in handy, and I could see a use for in a survival situation, Rescue Remedy . It calms dogs. I have used it infrequently, but to great success.


standard, no kickbacks or affiliations.

I've never had a need to use Rescue Remedy on my Dobes but it sure worked on a Lab that I inherited who hated the neighbors fireworks as well as thunder storms. With the rescue remedy he would at least settle while in the house. Thought about trying it myself when my female Dobe was about 8 months old!

Back to what we keep on hand for our dogs, I'm linking this product, only because I can buy it locally, there are several comparable 'canine sports drinks' out there. http://www.k9power.com/k9_godog.php It's good to use when it's hot and they are doing an activity or if they have an upset stomach to help prevent dehydration. You can use Gatorade in a pinch but the sugar isn't all that good for them. Much better to use something actually made for dogs.