Riddle me this......

Being from the northern climes, I obsess about firemaking in the winter. I went out to my unheated shed recently to test a couple of cheap butane lighters that I had left out there for a few weeks. I thought that maybe a 6 inch pillar candle could provide fume free all-night heat in a car stuck on a rural road in a snowbank, a situation I have had the pleasure of being in. It was about 5 degrees below zero, and as expected the lighters did not light. I slid them into my gloves for 5 minutes while I puttered around in the shed, and they worked just fine. I lit the frozen pillar candle and within 10 minutes, the top half cracked into pieces, split right through. Back to the drawing board there. Anyway, here are my questions:

1. Looking at the SHOT show gadgets, I see that Zippo makes a fire starting kit in a metal Zippo-sized case...Why not just carry a Zippo?

2. If a $1 butane lighter works well wet or dry in any weather (as my personal test seems to indicate) why wouldn't a person's backup be another $1 butane lighter?

3. Why (for the love of Pete) would anyone carry a fire piston???

1. Zippo lighter fuel tends to evaporate. The spark maker and the sticks that it lights don't. I think it's a marketing tool more than anythng.

2. Very good point. Works for me. I carry several cheap small lighters in my gear. I test them every few months and replace those that don't work. Even if the gas is gone, they still throw sparks.

3. The main reason people carry fire pistons is they were dropped on their heads as infants. Hey, maybe some people like spending hours to get a fire going. Beats me.

1. Just like most other companies, the folks at Zippo are trying to sell as much product as possible while making customers happy/excited. I applaud their creativity, but wonder if their resources would be better spent creating Zippo lights that DON'T EVAPORATE so easily. My guess is that such a lighter would be too expensive to compete with the Bic lighters and similar - or they would have already done it.

2. Both sparkers and low-pressure lighters can be real tough to deal with in moderate-to-high wind. Of course it typically wouldn't be too hard to make a wind break for lighting the fire IF you're equipped. Low pressure lighters may take a while to dry out and spark if they get wet. I've dunked Bics and find it doesn't take all that long to dry enough for a spark.

3. Fire piston = man toy -- something I understand completely. My wife doesn't understand completely, but lovingly tolerates it.

I will admit I am intrigued by it. You might say it has sparked my curiosity. I think it would be fun to try when camping at a state park. It's just too big to pack.

If the scenario includes the availability of a car, I would rely on a sleeping bag for warmth, rather than any kind of flame. For that nice cup of tea in the morning, toss in a stove, fuel, and matches, including windproofs, besides a Bic or two.

With a vehicle involved, weight is not an issue.

that's way i always include matches in any fire making kit.my trust level for a lighter is sort of low.

Have you tried using a butane lighter under windy conditions? It's impossible, at least in a sail boat. I'd rather have a zippo with a small fuel canister. You can light a Zippo in a twenty knot wind.

That makes sense. I travel three states for my job. I always carry insulated coveralls, boots, wool socks, hat, scarf, choppers, a snowmobile coat, and a wool blanket in a military duffle bag, but I can see using some type of small stove in a car PSK. There are some really nice ones out there, but I would want to go cheap on this one, like a folding sterno stove. Has anyone tried keeping sterno cans in a car trunk or SUV for a long period of time?

In defense of the fire piston (disclaimer: don't own one) - it works great for sparking tinder, its very reliable for that. Fire Piston + sticks, not so much.

Candle cracking from cold - consider packing a contained heat source, like this emergency candle http://beprepared.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E...rgency%20Candle better yet imho a sterno type can, that's what I have in my car kit.

Well, regarding the firepiston I can tell you it is a very reliable fire starter with an infinite number of lights.
That should be a consideration.
Granted, the technique must be learned (still easy enough for anyone to master in very little time, though).
But then again, everything must be learned, no excuse to knock firepistons for that. But still, many people have opinions based on nothing whatsoever. Was any of us born riding a bicycle, or did we have to learn how to do this at some point ?
Not really a reason to dismiss bicycles as not usefull now, is it? See what I mean ? I carry a mini firepiston as well as a few other fire starting options. I can have a coal in seconds on the first or second try, guaranteed.
Also a coal is longer lived than a spark and doesn't blow out in wind or draft. Wind only makes it stronger. I carry my FP loaded with tinder so it's always ready to go (this is a waterproof setup too!).
It will light numerous natural tinders and you can char cotton or any other natural fibre and even tiny pieces of wood in an altoids-tin in your campfire (thus creating charcoal for FP tinder). By doing so you can endlessly replenish your tinder supply in the field.
So, there's a few reasons for the FP.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Pharaoh

Limited experience with firepistons.
Love Zippo but need to carry fuel. If in a pinch they will burn almost any flammable liquid that will take a spark including camp stove fuel and gasoline. Diesel is a bit hard to light but can be done if you are very determined and have a strong thumb.
Bics are great but you need to protect the fuel button. If it gets compressed while in a pack you suddenly have an empty lighter.
I believe Iron Raven suggests using a cable tie to mouse the button and guard it from dumping the butane.
You might have explosive clothing or packs if the gas is trapped in them too.

I have been finding more cheap bic sized butane lighters with caps that have a jet flame lately. Some of them have even been cheaper than the bics and are refillable. These come with lids to guard the nozzle.
The bic or other butane lighters are cheap and light enough to be in many coat pockets, vehicles, cupboards, drawers on shelves in tool boxes and in and backpacks.
I hardly ever use matches because they are too easily wrecked by moisture and there is a danger of the igniting accidentally.
(once in a jeans pocket is enough for me)
Matches are household items though and there is a box of kitchen matches in the kitchen.


I have a sparker for backup in my pack if I run out of lighters. My favourite is the Doan magnesium block because the block is such a convenient handle. (I find the Swedish ones are nice big rods but the fiddly small grips on them are awkward for me)

I find making a small squared edge on the back of my knife gives me a very good scraper. You need to be able to give a good strong scrape to get the nice fat fire starting sparks instead of just a bright showy flash. The spark should hit the ground still glowing bright if you are standing up when you scrape the rod. You might not get that always but the fatter and hotter the spark is the better.
The square edge is nice and effective for getting good scrapes of magnesium off the block too but I have seldom needed the magnesium as tinder.

If you do carry tinder for a sparker the best natural one I have seen is the birch conk fungus.
The one that looks like a horses hoof.
Id you slice it open there is a block of porous material. You just slice it thin. I like it across the grain about 1/8th inch thick or less. It catches a spark well and burns as a bright ember. You use it to start your next level of tinder/kindling going.
After that come the dried grasses etc etc.
Vaseline greased cotton balls and other prepared tinders are good. Fat pine shaved thin is very good. shredded birch bak to grow the flame because it is rich in oils and will burn when wet.

All the other fire starter I tried that are easy to carry are far behind these ones for me.

Apologies for the wall of text effect.

I do carry a second second butane lighter. And a pressurized one. And matches, because if I have to, I can bundle a few of them together and light them with one- hotter! And a ferro rod (actually, everything backs this up). And usually a second thing of matches. And a frensel lens. And cordage so if I've got nothing else other than banging rocks together, I can try a fire bow again. And I can bang rocks if I really need to. And there is tinder in my gear, usually PJ-balls and/or tinderquiks, jute, and candles.

Lets just say I LIKE being warm. And I might like fire. *laughs*

As for why one might carry a fire piston, because they are cool. My inner pyro and the scientific sides of my brain both giggle gleefully at the concept. But I wouldn't carry that as my only source of fire.

You make a good point. IMHO carrying a mini-Bic as primary, a second mini-Bic as backup, and a third mini-Bic wrapped in wax paper and sealed in foil tape as reserve is a viable plan. You might substitute lifeboat matches and/or a spark-rod for the second lighter. A 'boots and suspender' sort might carry all five. All the units are small and light enough to make carrying backups practical.

But the law of diminishing returns starts to cut in after three IMO. Maybe four if your going into the very deep woods.

Survival aficionados will have some experience with a fire bow, plow or cord, and how to use a lens to start a fire. Impressive, and handy in a pinch, but seldom needed.

A few months back I bought one of Countycomm's peanut lighters (uses Zippo fluid but has an o-ring to seal it better), but life's been kind of crazy, and I haven't had a chance to even juice it up and try it yet.

I can see a fire piston being extremely useful in a long-term hunkering-down-at-home situation. You will probably have other people around, and that's the time you would find out that all of them want to start a fire, but don't know how.

Yes, I know... everyone here knows how to start a fire. But try this:

I have two sisters, one smart and one is an idiot. (Idiot in the insulting use of the word.) The Idiot was visiting from out of state. Ten minutes in the same room with her has me trying to crawl up the walls. She wanted to start a fire in the stove. Fine, I gave her a new box of strike-anywhere wooden matches and I escaped to run a few errands. When I returned, she was still trying to start a fire... with the matches and three large pieces of split firewood. There was a box of kindling and some small sticks and some Coghlan's firestarting sticks (sawdust/wax) right beside her, none of which she had attempted to use. Most of the box of matches was gone. The firewood had a few smoke marks on it.

Never underestimate stupid, esp in a survival situation.

Also, when the power goes out and there's three feet of snow on the ground is when some people discover they forgot one little thing... matches.

Sue

Byrd..i would skip the Sterno,i find it really makes some nasty fumes in a closed space and does not put out much heat.i have cans of very old Army wood alcohol heat tabs..much like Sterno,and they are still good.for a stove i would get a Gaz burner.the heads can be found cheap looking thru the web.they don't run great in the cold but if you get stuck you could put the Gaz cart inside your jacket to warm it up a bit and once it gets burning it will keep it's self going.any Coleman stove would be fine but a white gas spill in a car would be a killer if it lit..i know people say fuel up outside but in real life that does not always happen...my first experience with real cold was at the college in Bemidji.i was back from Korea and the DMZ was nasty but that part of Minnesota was worst.i put a duffel bag of warm gear in my car,1960 Chevy,along with a quart of Vodka.my roommate told me not to drink that at sub zero temps as it did not freeze like beer it would be as cold as the air temps as it was stored in the car and i would frost bite my throat if i drank it that cold..

I just took a shower and checked for cancer thanks to a pair of shower cards that show you how to check for cancer of the chest area, and the lower area

maybe you should include a "HOW TO START A FIRE" card along with matches, next to your stove/fireplace? You never know what kind of relative will try to start a fire alone

At one level I'm inclined to react to such ineffectiveness with derision. But then again things I often consider intuitively obvious are obscure and, conversely, social norms and popular references go over my head.

I'm frequently amazed by what people don't know. A few years back a part-time portable sawmill crew was taking advantage of the scrap wood left by a larger lumber operation. To get the spindly trunks into the portable mill they knock off the branches. One of the guys was using an axe and it ricocheted off a limb and laid open his leg. He was bleeding massively. They held a rag on the gaping wound and he bled to death on the way to the hospital.

How a crew routinely using chainsaws and axes could avoid knowing how to control bleeding is a mystery to me. The concepts of direct pressure, pressure points, and tourniquets aren't difficult to understand. And not difficult to carry out even if there is no specialized first-aid equipment. Tee shirts, a belt and socks will all work in a pinch. A person could learn the basics in ten minutes. But for a lack of ten minutes training by even one person the man died.

It isn't all that uncommon for people who haven't been better informed to think lighting a fire is just a matter of touching flame to wood. The idea that small flames light the small stuff and the small stuff makes big flames that lights the big stuff isn't complicated or hard to understand. But most people need to be told because nobody is born knowing it. Way back every four year old understood this because they watched the adults lighting a fire. People can now live their entire lives without observing anyone light a campfire. Or, as the case shows, having anyone tell them.

The cure for a lack of knowledge is education. But then again lack of education isn't the only reason people don't know things. As Susan points out; people forget things when stressed. I once pushed a truck a good part of a mile before the driver figured out that they needed to have the ignition on. D'oh!!!

When troubleshooting a computer that won't run it is always worthwhile to check to see that it is plugged in and turned on.

Although mine needs its lubrication to be renewed from time to time.

I thought the main reason for knocking a firepiston is its physical size. They tend to be large because you need a large volume of air to compress to make the heat.

Primitive fire making skills are always a nice fallback for when everything else fails and you are left to using whatever nature provides. That it is not the most efficient or expedient survival method of creating a fire is an inherent quality of our intellect, but does not diminish the knowledge of how to build and use the tools. I would think knowing how to build one and use it would be far more valuable than actually having one in stores.

As for the bic, it is one of many viable options for primary/backup firestarting. I prefer a refillable windproof butane lighter that I get for $10.00 as my primary. For backup I have a couple of $3 refillable standard flame butane lighters and a zippo. I usually keep the zippo stored dry and the fuel in an airtight container so the fuel doesn't get needlessly wasted. The way I see it, even butane lighters can lose fuel over time sitting unused, so the notion of a cheap refillable for a few dollars more isn't such a big leap. In fact, I have both refillable and disposable butane lighters in reserve.

How much time are you talking about (assuming the button isn't depressed)? Months? Years?

Even though it still lights, should I still replace them every couple of years or so?

I'd hate to have one light fine when I test it, and fail me six months later when I needed it.

I notice that some of the disposable butane lighters I have have a lower level progressively about every 6 months or so. I've never had one run out before I got rid of it, but I have seen some lose half their fuel load in the course of a couple years.

For an EDC, that is nothing, but for a backup, it is a factor to consider. Matches don't last forever either I reckon.

In a humid environment they degrade pretty quickly. In a dry environment it takes a bit longer, probably a few years.

I am somewhat distantly fascinated by primitive skills, but for me I want to invest my time into training, techniques and gear that gives better "bang for the buck". In other words, given the choice of mastering the mystery of fire bow drill in about three months of intense practice or lighting a fire within minutes using lighters or fire steel and petroleum jelly cotton balls, I prefer very much just to lit that fire and enjoy my tea, thank you very much. There are a lot of fires to be lit and enjoyed before I devote my time to esoteric techniques.

Maybe when the kids have grown up and I'm an retired old fart... nah, then it's time to teach the future grand children some really dangerous pyrotech...

I wouldn't discount primitive techniques too much.

You make a good point that there are a lot of things to learn and master before primitive skills become vital. IMO everyone should have first-aid, land navigation, basic camping and field sanitation skills under their belt before worrying about making fire with a bow. Those and a half-dozen more basic skill sets are vital and form the backbone of survival know-how.

The biggest payoff for time invested is for quick and dirty classes that cover the basics with written sources, lectures, and demonstrations but combine it with practical hands-on experience to lock in the concepts. Most individual subjects can be adequately covered in an hour or two.

That said there is a lot going for those esoteric primitive skills. You never look at a fire the same way, or gain such an intimate understanding of it, as when you create fire from a couple of sticks and a bootlace. Nothing quite gives you a gut sense of how rope works like making your own out of plant fibers you harvest yourself.

Did anyone catch the show the other night about a Marine Survival Course? One of the first things they had to learn to do was ... you guessed it, making fire with a bow drill.

You know, you made me think. I look at my own signature line about outdoor heritage being lost and realize again that with something as important as fire, a person should learn all of the skills and practice them. How much better to practice the bow and drill or flint and steel in a campsite with a picnic table and a cooler of cold whatevers, than in a true survival situation. I'm not saying anything here that you all don't already know, but the urgency of passing on survival skills to the next generation just dawned on me again. If not us, than who?

Good point and one I will take with me further.

I also appreciate Art_in_FL's point about leaps in understanding through countless hours of practice. As I said, I focus on practicing the art of making a fire cheating with Bic's, fire steel and so on. I am sure there are much lessons to be learned there as well. But I don't rule out that I will shift my focus to more esoteric techniques at a later time.


Speaking of which, I read a blog about using a cordless drill for testing various bow drill materials. (Sorry, forgot the reference). The idea was to test a lot of local materials at high speed, gaining experience to which materials that provided the best fire board + drill combination. That's distilling countless frustrating hours of bow drill experimentation into a matter of minutes. He still has hours and hours of practice before he can make it work, but he knows he now is practicing with the best possible combination of local materials. For all I know, he lost some esoteric, mythical deeper meaning when he cheated with an electric drill... but he probably gained a lot in terms of his ability to think outside the box and find new solutions to old problems.

Seems like a good way to keep the guys from using up all the hand grenades....

Ha ha ha, that's funny. But making fire with a hand grenade is kind of extreme isn't it?

Learning primitive fire making techniques is certainly useful and challenging, but I suspect it will prove to be of limited value in most situations.

I have had to light fires in some fairly challenging situations, and I have always managed to keep suitable "modern" materials at hand. You can easily fashion a very complete kit that will weigh about 2 oz, with more than one method of fire lighting.

There are probably other kinds of outdoor skills that would be a better use of your resources and time.

Actually, come to think of it, I have spent more time putting fires out (wildland fire fighting) than lighting them.

They're Marines. They are professional Extremists. Be careful around them.
They are very useful when needed but hard to keep as pets.




(spoken by a former bubblehead squid)

Yes. Although I think that means "fire drill" rather than "fire piston". I wouldn't want to make a piston unless I had a decent workshop available, and/or lots of time. I know they can be made in the wild, but surely a fire-drill is going to be quicker and easier?

I agree. I have never tried a fire piston for just that reason.

Isn't the fire piston a product of the bamboo forest? I mean, the first people to use them had bamboo to work with?

Not much of that around here. And what IS here is carefully guarded :-)

That seems like a plausible origin. A fire piston could be constructed of any wood I suppose, or other similar workable materials.

Uni, how big are you lookin for, i have an ornanental oriental (try saying that 5 times fast!) garden. surprisingly bamboo grows here!!!

I like the small plexiglass variety. Very tight seal.

My friend wants to get a fire piston, I can get him one for his birthday but i am gonna need some help, some extra eyes out for good deals or a seller. condition doesnt really matter, O ring can be missing, piston can be chipped, finish can be worn, any thing cosmetic is ok, but i can make a good offer. From what it sounds like, alot of you dont like em much! Thanks!

Um, actually I'm not.

Just suggesting that since bamboo grows in jointed sections and the stem is round in cross section that finding two pieces that fit together as piston and cylinder would be much easier in a bamboo forest than, say, shortgrass prairie or alpine tundra.