Wild animal attack preparation

Incidents like this seem to be happening more often, maybe because development is encroaching on animal's natural habitat.
Cougar attack

I am not much of an outdoorsman so I am wondering what preparation everyone does for potential wild animal attacks.

I figure guns and bear spray, ...will bear spray work on a cougar?

thanks

It depends a bit on where I am going.
If it is just for a hike on a wilderness trail a can of bearspray is good to have.
If it is for working in an area which is pretty sure to have bears or big cats, then a rifle or shotgun in the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing is better.

So If I was going to be working around a dump or in the middle of a seasonal food source I would consider firearms.

Cougars are still very rare and the odds of getting attacked are very low. Cats do tend to be attracted more to children because they see them as easy prey.
With cats the young males are driven to locate a new territory and establish themselves. Since a cat covers so much area this often drives them into contact with humans.
These young males are not familiar with humans and don't fear contact quite as much as they should
That also makes their attacks kind of random.

All good reasons to never let kids out of your site in wilderness areas, but even in developed areas cats have been known to appear and attack.

This post is timely because in 2005 a man was killed by wolves in Saskatchetewan, the coroner recently ruled that wolves were the cause of death. First confirmed human death due to wolf attack in 100 years.

Read about it here.

I often carry bear spray or a firearm when in areas where bears are common. I once got too close to a pair of black bear cubs and was charged by the sow, by the time I got the bear spray out of my vest pocket, took off the holster and removed the double safety the bear could of mauled me for sure. She stopped short and then just escorted me out of the area as I backed away down the trail.

The biggest thing with bears is to keep a clean camp or yard with nothing to attract the bears to you.

Mike

We often see signs posted on the trails around here warning of cougars. Every now and then, offtrail I'll see a big deer skeleton stripped of meat. Deer is one of cougars favorite prey. A big cougar can reach almost 200 pounds. I'm a fairly big guy, but it impresses me to realize that a big cougar can sneak up on a big deer and have lunch. Several years ago, a homeowner out here shot a video (shown on the news) of a cougar chomping down on his full-grown german shepherd and jumping over the backyard fence with it. I guess I don't know if bear spray would work on a cougar. For starters, I guess you'd have to have enough warning to use it, and a person may not. That being said, when I'm on the trail I carry a very stiff walking stick with a sharp metal chisel tip.

If I were hiking in an area with occurence of dangerous animals I would take with me a small lightweight torch in addition to a bear spray. (By torch I don´t mean flashlight.) Plus some lighter that can be quickly used with one hand to light up the torch. I haven´t tested if it would be sufficient deterrent but I would rather have even a small fire in between me and the animal than nothing.

If you haven´t come across this yet this is interesting story: http://ngadventure.typepad.com/blog/2008/02/avalanches-esca.html - first comment (at the bottom).

I'd be surprised if bear spray doesn't work on cougars. It seems to work on pretty much everything with two or four legs. I've actually used pepper spray (not bear spray proper) on a big, aggressive cat that possibly had rabies. A very brief burst sent it jumping about 6 feet in the air and it settled the situation right there and then.

Luckily I have only had to deal with hostile wildlife on a few occasions but I can share some advice I got from a friend with a lot more hands-on experience, plus some scars and war stories to go with it. A lot of people are afraid of wild predators and panic if they're attacked. He said you should treat any four-legged animal, dog, cougar, even a bear just like a human assailant. The main targets are the same, head/eyes/snout, neck, belly, testicles (in males) so if it gets to hand-to-hand, that's what you should be aiming at. With bare hands, knife, rock, whatever. Rifle or shotgun, bear spray and stout stick are all very useful if you have the time and distance. Depending on your options, you should carry at least one of them out in the bush. But he emphasized you should still mentally prepare yourself for the eventuality of having to fight back at close quarters if the predator surprises you. Supposedly anything you do to fight back will improve your odds greatly because most predators only look for weak prey and will retreat if the victim resists.

Can't say much else except that it made sense to me at the time. While the odds of being attacked by a cougar or bear are small, you just never know. Besides, even in a city you could run into a berserker pitbull any time.

Look up mountain lion attacks... I forget what % but a VERY HIGH % of them are on woman, young people, someone alone hiking along their "housing track" which is NOT in mountain lion territory but a cat somehow found their way down the mountain into this area.

I think it was <5% if even that of people who were attacked by mountain lions were actually in their habitat in the woods.

Another thing to consider is to paint or glue something that looks like eyes on the back of your hat. I recall reading that this was very effective in reducing tiger attacks in National Parks in India.

For me its so statically unlikely, I don't even worry about it. Animal attacks are very, very uncommon, even in the wild.

Just run with someone who is slower than you

*Joking*

Right, most cougar attacks are done from behind and lightening quick. Bear spray, pepper spray, knife, firearm are only as effective as the ability to access said item when attacked. The best weapon is to not be alone and aid the victim by using a large branch or rocks to beat off the attacker.

Even groups are subjective to cougar attacks. In several instances in California a cougar was attacking mountain bikers, always going for the last person in the group. i believe this happen two times with serious injuries to the victim before the cougar was killed. One bikers death was attributed to the cougar and had been solo.

While most cougar attacks are in areas next to the human/wild
interface where they have lost their fear of humans (read
Beast in the Garden), this attack was in one of the more remote
spots in the lower 48. I saw a wolf on that trail about 30 years
ago when it wanted a closer look at a lab pup that was hiking
with us. They recently released some Grizzlies in the same area
just north of the border.


There have been other cougar attacks in this general area and also some
shot for being menacing and stalking people. One was hanging out
around the school in Colville watching the kids.

Cougar attacks are like being struck by lightning, there is a very
low probability of occurance unless you are standing on a peak in an electrical storm.

"... Cougar attacks are like being struck by lightning ..."

From NOAA: Four hundred people get struck by lightning every year. Between 1997 and 2006, 437 people in the United States died from lightning strikes.

Perhaps a different simile would be better?

And the difference between rare and never can be terminal.

What about carrying one of those smallish airhorns instead of (or in addition to) pepper spray? You could conceivably use it even if your head was in a cougar's mouth.

How many people facing a predator remember to check which way the wind is blowing before they use their pepper spray, or have time to check? Finding yourself downwind of the pepper spray could incapacitate you more than the predator, and result more in a seasoning effect than a repellent effect.

As to the people in the link of the original post here, why were they wandering around, separated? It would seem that a cougar might be discouraged by a group of four.

A little more common sense might change 'rare' to 'never'.

Yeah. You read it in "Calvin & Hobbes"

There's a YouTube video, I hate it when folks don't post a link, just a sec. . . Wilderness Survival: Building a Survival Kit... About 45 minutes into the lecture he starts discussing interacting with wildlife. At time 52:25 he starts talking Mountain Lions. Good discussion/lecture on the subject.

one of the places i canoe is the Boundary Waters Canoe Area in Northern Minnesota.%80 of my trips are solo.in 25 years i have seen maybe 3 bears and one was on the dirt road on the way to the outfitters bunkhouse.all you read about on the BW forums is BEARS!!!..but no one has every had a problem bear outside a well used campsite near the trail head--or in the case of canoes the landings..none on the portage carrys,in the woods bushwhacking to a remote lake--so on.Bill Mason of canoe fame in Canada said you seldom see large animals in the forest.think hunters, all the work they do to even find something and get close for a shot.having said that--i keep a pepper spray out in the camp and a small one in my pocket on the portages as a security blanket.just my luck i would be the 1 in a 10,000 to get dragged off by a nutzy bear.



HELLO--hello!!!..anyone down there??..hello?

I don't know much about bear spray, since I live in Alabama. But for any decent-sized animal, I think my .45 should work fairly well. The first round may not kill a bear-sized animal, but it should slow it down pretty well to allow me to squeeze off the other 20 rounds.

And I'm fairly sure that not much on this planet will keep coming after 21 rounds of .45acp 230-grain HydraShok. Maybe a moose or elephant, but my chances of running into one of those around here are pretty slim.

That's a really good read. Thanks for posting it.

I have been pepper sprayed; I was a slobbering, crying idiot for 45 minutes before I was able to get enough water on me to clear the stuff. That was 11 years ago and I remember it like it was this morning, very hot stuff and even worse if you are contaminated in the presence of a large aggressive predator.

I was in the Canadian Rockies this summer and noticed many hikers carrying pepper spray. What concerned me was that they were not very careful where or how they carried it. If the can ever discharged in an enclosed space or while operating a vehicle the results could be far worse than the threat of wildlife attack.

I carry pepper spray daily because it is effective, but like all dangerous tools you just need to respect it.

Mike

You REALLLLYYYY don't want pepper spray to cook off inside a vehicle. Be there done that. One less MP scout car in the motor pool.

Can you imagine if you were driving a car at 70 mph in traffic and surrounded by heavily loaded trucks when the bear spray lets go? The pucker factor would tend to rise a bit.

Such sprays should be transported with the safety taped or wired down, double-bagged in plastic garbage bags with the air pressed out, perhaps with something absorbent, like towels, in each bag. Cans of spray can also let go if they overheat so keep them as cool as possible.

Many years ago SOP with some military units that carried spray was to keep it in an ammo can bolted to the rear bumper. That way any leaks were down-wind while driving.

Just from curiosity is bear spray as strong as pepper spray or is less strong.

I always thought the only real difference was in how fast the can empties when you trigger it.
Bear spray puts out a big cloud of spray real fast.

IMHO that's a little academic. If you do happen to be attacked by a predator there's probably going to be very little time and checking the wind direction wouldn't be that high on my to-do list.

But I think it's largely a moot point. Even in a small pepper spray can the pressure is so high the stream can easily reach about 12 to 15ft. Bear spray has even better range. Unless there happens to be a tornado coming in your direction whatever attacker you spray within reasonable range is going to get a whole lot more of the nasty stuff in their face than you.

From what training I've done the person using pepper spray is likely to inhale a very little bit no matter what but it's not going to seriously affect you. Also remember, once you start spraying walk back slowly. it will help create some more distance between you and the threat, giving you more opportunity to hit him with everything you've got and it also reduces the chance of getting any of the spray in your face.

The problems I have seen with bear spray have all been from people with no experience using them.
Bear spray is like anything else. You need to practice with it before you need it.

(I might need some more volunteers to act like bears too)

Bear-spray works on any mammal & is stronger than the pepper spray for use against mere humans.

Interesting reading on the subject:
http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm

BC boy recovering after being attacked by cougar in Washington state
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090903/national/cougar_attack_7

* In California, from 1986 through 1998, exactly two people died from mountain lion attacks, whereas in one year alone, over 4,000 people died in traffic accidents, including 800 pedestrians. This means that your car or someone else's car is ~2,000 times more likely to kill you than is a mountain lion. (A Detailed Calculation gives the ratio as between 1,150 and 4,300.)

* Over 300 people have been killed by domestic dogs in the U.S. between 1979 and the late 1990s. This means that your family dog or your neighbor's dog is ten times more likely to kill you than is a mountain lion and hundreds of time more likely than is a coyote.

now if by "lightning" the meaning is "fast", then yes, a cougar attack is like lightning. they get you from behind, as previously described - you'll not see it coming.

imho bears are typically seen before an attack - if even for a few seconds.


that's what we carry - upwind / downwind doesn't matter. you're hoping to make a sound louder - and hopefully more intimidating - than they can. deer don't make that sound. you want them to think twice before they commit to trying you for lunch.

"Even in a small pepper spray can the pressure is so high the stream can easily reach about 12 to 15ft. Bear spray has even better range. Unless there happens to be a tornado coming in your direction whatever attacker you spray within reasonable range is going to get a whole lot more of the nasty stuff in their face than you."

A bear can move at speeds up to 35mph. Assuming that the bear will be/stay 12-15 ft away might be an error. If you use it when the bear is close to you, you might well be incapacitated by your own weapon.

I think I'll stick with the air horn. Being temporarily deafened probably won't hinder my speed in leaving the area as having my upper mucous membranes contaminated with pepper.

Another useful weapon would be one of those hand-held marine flares. Also useful as a signalling device and firestarter!

Don't take it as a personal attack, but what you're suggesting here is based on a totally flawed premise. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Virtually everyone is involved in traffic daily. Comparatively VERY few people venture out into mountain lion terrain however and those that do for the most part don't do it on a daily basis. So statistically your principle is unsound because there are naturally going to be far more people hurt in traffic accidents than out in the bush. But that does not necessarily mean your chances of getting mauled by a mountain lion are really that low statistically.

Now your logic would make more sense if you actually knew just how many people on average do enter mountain lion terrain annually, then calculating the percentages.

Nobody is assuming anything. If a bear does charge you at 35mph at short range you're probably toast anyway unless you're sitting in something armor plated weighing at least a few tons. I'm pretty sure most people could hit a moving target with bear spray a lot more consistently than with a firearm, though.

The same goes for incapacitating yourself. It seems to me a lot of people who have reservations about bear spray have never tested it before. I'm not saying it's a be all, end all solution but it does have a very good track effort considering the circumstances. With just a little bit of training I believe most people could use bear spray more effectively in an emergency than a firearm. Other than that, there aren't that many decent options left. Things like axes, knives or flares really belong into the last ditch category IMHO. YMMV.

I agree with you Tom_L, I have used bear spray a few times in training and managed to not contaminate myself. The time I was directly sprayed it was on purpose.

I did hear a story from a co-worker where bear spray was used to deter a bear on a campsite, the spray drifted downwind and the people on a distant campsite took an attack of coughing (not serious in this case).

Mike

Bear sprays are meant to put out a cloud of spray that the bear (or other beasty) inhales as well as getting it in its eyes.
It is the effect on their eyes and their breathing that is the deterrent. They are suddenly unable to breath properly or see.
The idea is to put that cloud out there that the bear has to come through as it charges. It is not like you are actually trying to spray the bear as a target.

Bear sprays are meant to put up that cloud about 25 feet from you and are really meant to be used if the bear is charging at you.

Sprays are effective in most cases, but even then back ups might be needed. Not every bear is stopped by spray.

About seeing the bear first? Well, that is not always true either.
Bears are very good at moving through thick brush quietly, but very seldom has anybody been stalked as prey by a bear. It has happened a few times though, and the stories told by survivors are illuminating. In several of them they had no idea there was a bear there until they had already been knocked down.

I don't want to make it sound like the bears, cougars and wolfs are all just waiting for you to step off the sidewalk so they can satisfy a ravenous craving for human flesh.
It is not like that at all.

You are far more likely to stumble over a sleeping bear, get between a sow and her cubs or surprise a bear that is just not paying attention. It does seem odd that an animal with such fine senses could be surprised but they get careless at times too.

Hikers wearing bells and survey crews on salmon streams using air horns have still managed to surprise bears at short range.
These types of encounters often result in the bear charging because it does not know what else to do.

I often go into fairly remote areas with no gun or spray.
However, in areas where I know I will be close to bears, especially bears that are more habituated to people, I take equipment that might be needed to prevent becoming a casualty.
Yes dumps qualify, so do public camp grounds, bear habitat areas like the edges of swamps and at certain times large berry picking areas.

Black bears have been killed by people hitting them with sticks, but like Tom_L points out, that is really a last ditch effort.


To comment about survival situations I would say Susan has it right.
I would add that any encounter with a bear is automatically a survival situation.
It does not mater if it is in the deep dark forest or on your own front porch.

i don't take it personal, i took it from this source, more specifically the sources of the data statistics, as well as the mountain lion foundation here.

or how about this: The Hunter Incident Clearinghouse reported that in just the year 2002 alone, hunting accidents in the United States killed 89 people and injured 761. and yet, since 1890 only 21 people have been killed by mountain lions on the entire North American Continent.

hunters are typically found in cougar territory, yet they kill more people than cougars do.

Yeah, hunting season scares the crap out of me too.

yeah, ditto.
Back when I worked up in NW Alberta, I often saw bears, was never threatened by one.
Twice in 5 years I had a bullet rip past close enough that I could hear it hitting leaves in the trees nearby.
I never saw those 'hunters' and they never saw me.
I've seen black-bears, grizzly-bears, wolves, bobcat, but never seen a cougar.
Doesn't mean one has never seen me.

Yes, even when I am hunting I am nervous about other hunters.
I have never had the bullets zipping around me, but 2 of the guys I went to school with in the 70s are dead from hunting accidents.
When it gets near to deer hunting season I become the brightest orange thing you can imagine in the woods.
I become so brightly fluorescent orange that I make my own eyes hurt.

Gotta love statistics. You can use statistics to confirm or deny just about anything lol. I'd like to see the statistics of hikers that actually ventured into bear country that were attacked by a bear. Probably still quite low, but more sobering than you might realize. I'd wager something like 0.5% (1 in 200), but still higher than lightning strikes.

Back to the point of preparation. They sell kevlar neck guard shirts to hockey players to protect against pucks and sticks, I wonder how they'd fare against the jaws of a 200 lb. cougar? (and I mean the cat, not the older woman looking to spice it up with a young lad ;))

Crank statisticians everywhere despair that people use statistics sloppily and without showing the results of the many tests devised to test the relative trustworthiness of statistical conclusions.

[Not a stats guy, just cranky.]

I don't think the statistics really matter. We're not really discussing how to prepare for the event not happening. I do agree that the biggest threats are humans and feral dogs above the wildlife in many areas, though.

Anyway, a couple of points:

1. Extra people is the best thing to bring in areas where wildlife may be a problem. Slow running ones are best, but barring that, someone who doesn't mind pouncing on said wildlife if it's gnawing on you is good too.

2. Pepper spray is the best deterrent for any animals, humans included. Someone mentioned that they had a hard time digging it out of their pocket. Don't carry it that way. Put it in a holster that can be deployed while still attached to you, either on a shoulder strap or at your dominant hand's hip. Learn to fire it from that position, and practice with a practice canister. If an animal (or human) is serious, you won't have time to dig out your spray.

3. However, pepper spray does not always work, for various reasons, so a gun is not a bad idea for back up, provided you're trained to use it. A gun in the hands of your trained friend is better, of course. Relative to cougars/mountain lions, from several accounts I've read, they are much more adverse to prey fighting back than, say, feral dogs are. One account told of hikers assisting someone being attacked by a cat, by stabbing the cat with a Swiss Army knife. So, gun if allowed/trained, or knife or stick, whatever you have. But have something (both you and your friend) on hand. In no-gun zones, a hickory hiking stick and a fixed blade knife are a good idea.

You missed the point. How much do you worry about lightning?
Only if you are in an exposed place.

Same with wild animals.
Are you in an area where they are a known problem?

I am the OP and I guess a cranky statistician, I majored in it in university. I guess you were being facetious but in fact statistics is a rigorous mathematics and you just cannot use statistics to prove anything.

Tell statistics to the 1 in 500,000,000,000 person who got attacked and killed by a cougar or other wild animal... they will laugh at you if they could.

The point of this discussion I think is to talk about preparing for an attack and or preventing an attack that is about to occur.

The stats could be 1:10 or 1:500,000,000,000 it doesn't matter, it can still happen and it could happen to you!

- Do not travel alone if you are worried.
- Do not travel at daybreak / early morning or sunset / evening.
- Carry pepper spray.
- Carry a small c02 horn.
- Do not run away like a prey animal.

And if you are someone who likes firearms then by all means carry one as well... just know how to use it

I might agree with you if we were talking about be attacked by a possum, but expecting a .45acp to be effective against a bear is foolish IMHO. I'd want at least a .45-70 rifle. And ten more friends with identical rifles firing at the same time.

As far as an animal attack, I've just never really worried about it. If that rare rare event ever happens to me, well, I guess I'm just dead then. It was my time. At least the buggers that killed me would be able to eat well for several weeks. Human predators scare me much more. Lightning scares me much more.

Statistics are often misused/abused though.
I think what they were referring to here was the use of numbers that are not really related trying support a point the person using them wants to make.

The problem some of the posters are pointing to is that without accounting for the situation there is no way to relate the number of people killed in cars by people driving cars with the number of people killed in cars by bears driving cars.

Statistics are only of consequence to the extent that they confirm our fears, or support our hopes. ;-)

Like any area of expertise that is used by non-experts. An educated statistician can ascertain what is non-sense and what is not.

You are right though, I have seen laughable and absolutely non-credible probability and statistical arguments to prove creationism for example.

yep.
and that about sums it up.

Have you ever been bear hunting?
I haven't, but I have friends who have been and they will use a dog or two and chase the bear up a tree, and then shoot it. Even normal house dogs chase bears up trees, bears are afraid of most people and dogs and will FLEE! Even bears in campgrounds are known to do this... but they are also known to stick around and ignore people all the while ripping your car to shreds to get a candy bar left on the front seat

*normal* bears are not some crazy human killing animal that will hunt you down and kill you. Some may be, and those are the ones you need to prepare for... but talking about needing 10 guys and a minimum of a .45-70 is pretty ridiculous unless you are out hunting polar bears or a known man killing grizzly.

IMHO firearm caliber is dependent upon the bear species one is either HUNTING or preparing to defend against. So this may be another topic entirely

Personally... for around my house I carry a .357 mag revolver w/buffalo bore hard cast led. I want to get an ultra-light .44mag for hiking trips eventually but for now I`m happy with my 357. Around here we have black bear, and I've scared them off by yelling at them.

Well, we can verify easily that a .454 Casull revolver will in fact kill a charging bear with 2-3 accurately-placed shots.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/man-kills-charging-bear-with-454-casull/

I don't doubt that the .454 generates a lot more stopping power. But, I'd guess that firing 21 rounds of .45 would likely do some serious damage also.

But first off, we don't get a lot of bears where I live in Alabama. Second, I doubt I'd get to pick the time of a possible bear attack, so having ten friends with rifles around probably wouldn't be likely. And third, I'd have a hard time carrying a rifle around with me everywhere I go. But I do have a .45acp on me at all times.

So, I'll have to go with the .45 I actually have handy, versus the magical rifle I could produce from thin air.

Plus, I don't carry a .45 specifically to fend off attacking bears, I carry it to fend off attacking humans, dogs, whatever needs fending off.

Funny thing about bears and dogs. When I lived in Panama City, Fl, we had a smallish black bear, maybe 200-250lbs, or about my size, get into town. It led the authorities on a merry chase through several neighborhoods. When passing through a yard with a chained German Shepard in it, the dog apparently took offense at the bear. The bear took the dog. It just carried it off, snapping the chain.

Bears are fairly strong. I'm pretty sure I can take out a German Shepard, but not without some serious consequences. This little bear, about my weight, took it in passing.

Now, that's just a little story I remembered. Not really trying to refute a point or anything, as most bears are pretty shy.

That was an exaggeration for emphasis. But not that much of an exaggeration.

Check this article out if you think a .45acp is a good way stop a bear. My DOG outweights the bear in this article by 20lbs!

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12926506

Whether it's a bear, dog, or human that I'm defending myself against - I'm not going to stop shooting until I'm out of rounds or one of us isn't alive anymore.

And if I'm out of rounds and we're both still alive, I'm going for the knife. I'm sure as hell not giving up as long as I have breath left in me.

Back up there bud, I never once said a .45 ACP was a good round for a bear.

You must have me mistaken.

Speaking of dogs and bear, here's a little twist to consider if you're in the habit of letting your dog run loose:

In Scandinavia, one way of elk (moose) hunting is letting the dogs run loose and make A LOT of barking. They will chase and stress the elk (moose). This will either drive the elk to a convenient location or give the hunter time to position himself for a shot.

Now what happens when the dog meets a bear? The bear probably wants to run away, but if the bear is surprised and the dog is too close the bear may choose to attack. Then, the dog runs backs to its owner as fast as it possibly can. The bear may very well chase the dog, either as a chase-the-fleeing-prey response or a I'll-show-you-who's-the-BOSS response. Either way, you have a close surprise encounter with a stressed and angry bear and one or more humans.

This situation is extremely volatile, and several bear attacks have happened to hunters with dogs. The attacks may just be fake, or the bear may be stressed enough to make a real attack. Either way, the bear is typically shot by the fellow hunter.

As far as I know, NO ONE walking alone in the woods has been attacked by bears in Scandinavia, as opposed to a handful of hunters with dogs. (One incident is uncertain, though: A man was attacked and killed by bear as he left his "out house" of his bear country cabin. It is believed, but not proven that his dog played a role in the encounter).

I agree that statistics is a rigorous mathematics, just saying that people often misuse statistics to mislead others, either knowingly or otherwise... You need to understand the data from which the statistics originated. You shouldn't include everyone the country over in a cougar attack scenario, it is absolutely misleading, since a large number of people live in urban areas, where cougar attacks are very improbable. I could say that the odds of dying from dysentery are about 10%... which might very well be true if you include the entire world population, since access to clean water is a real problem in many countries. In the USA dying from dysentery is highly unlikely.

Thanks for sharing what goes on there! Very interesting for sure.

Sorry, I meant "you" as in "generic person", not "you" as in "you". It didn't come out that way though.

And all it would have taken was to have squeezed some toothpaste into a bowl and throw it out into the back yard from the bedroom or bathroom window.

Here's a bear vs. .45acp article:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298031

This guy saw the bear (400lb black bear) from a good distance away, and emptied his gun into it. I think at shorter range, he'd have been a bear chew toy.

With regard to stopping an attacking bear, vs. hunting, it's important to keep in mind the two incapacitation mechanics: damage to the CNS and blood loss. A brain or spine shot on a charging bear is something you're probably only going to do if you get very lucky. Blood loss is problematic, because if you don't poke a big enough hole, the bear's fat and fur will tend to plug the external holes up and slow the blood loss. Plus, it just takes a bit of time for a bear to bleed out. That's why shotgun slugs and large bore rifles are popular.

My personal plan in bear areas is bear spray and a 1911 for backup. I might consider a lighter weight magnum revolver, but that's just not in the budget anytime soon.

No problemo!

From what I've read about handguns used against animals, .45 ACP is usually a poor choice on bears. As is 9mm, 40S&W, and other common service pistol calibers. They're made for stopping people (or people that act like animals), not animals themselves. Many have been killed or seriously injured underestimating what a certain firearm will do against a large animal.

In fact, one article I read even said that, in the writer's experience as a bear hunter living in a big bear area, heavy .357 magnum loads perform noticeably better against bears than .45acp. The heavy .357 magnum loads can penetrate to places where .45 acp simply can't. However, it's not an ideal bear caliber in their opinion, it's just better than .45acp (which, a lot of people seem to think is an acceptable bear caliber).

With that being the case, I've formed the opinion that, at an absolute minimum for an outdoor handgun I would want heavy 10mm or heavy .357 magnum loads in a long barreled gun (5"+). I would not, however, feel totally comfortable with that. I would only be carrying that in places where the risk of big animals coming after me is very low.

My preferred handgun choice for a place where bears and such are common would be a .44 magnum or .454 casull. I've read of multiple documented cases where they have worked to stop large bears and other large dangerous animals on the charge. Most recently, that link mentioned above where a short barreled .454 casull was used to stop a bear in Alaska. Still, I wouldn't be 100% comfortable, but I would probably be about as happy as I'm gonna get with only a handgun.

With all that in mind, I still wouldn't want to be using a handgun against a bear or any other big dangerous critter if my life, or the life of another, depended on it. I'd much rather have something like a 12 gauge shotgun firing magnum loads, a .45/70 lever gun, or a medium to big bore rifle. The only reason I would consider a handgun is simply because carrying a long gun around most of the time just isn't practical (nor is it usually quick to get into action if it's strapped to a pack or laying against a tree).

I have personally delivered 7 well placed shots from a USGI M1911A1 .45ACP into an oncoming razorback hog. The first 5 rounds were into the chest, and succeeded in upsetting said beast more than he already was. Rounds 6 & 7 were head shots and finally put him down. Rounds 1 - 5 never penetrated the bone and gristle of the front chest plate area.

I hate Arkansas...

Preparations for large animal attacks hold a place somewhere between preparations for lightning strikes, I keep meaning to mount that lightning rod on my boonie hat but haven't gotten around to it, and preparation for alien abduction, where not changing my underwear for a month might just turn the trick.

I'm not going to hump around five to eight pounds of iron to protect me from the one in a couple of million chance I might catch the eye of some large animal. Particularly when other methods, like staying aware of your surroundings, looking big, and making noise, are effective and shooting at a charging bear is a low odds game.

Those in Alaska and some wilderness areas of the west may face a somewhat higher risk. Even in those locations there are literally thousands of people who go into the woods without any practical means of inflicting lethal force against a bear and the vast majority of them emerge from the wilderness areas unmolested by potentially dangerous animals.

I agree in principle, Art. The odds of a lot of things happening are pretty low. When the worse of them happen, though, it's good to be prepared.

Let's face it, a large animal attack is a dramatic event. On pretty much any forum, it's a guaranteed conversation starter. Big animal attacks make great stories, after all.

None of us really expects to, nor I hope wants to, star in our own action movie. I think this group is pretty level-headed.

But this is a forum dedicated to what to do in situations that are, by definition, not routine. The rarity of the event may dictate priorities, but it's an even that does occur, now matter how seldom.

There's plenty of reading material available on the web about the subject, yet every time I read one of these threads (on any board, not picking on ETS), it's pretty clear that a lot of folks haven't taken the time to dig up said info. So, it doesn't hurt to share.

There is a lot of nonsense on the web too, I come here because of the expertise of the posters and because Ritter oversees the board so I know I will be getting good advice.

Jim: What's up with the .22? A .22 won't stop a bear.

John: Who said anything about shooting the bear?

A couple of good books, if you can find copies of them are "Man-eaters of Kumaon" and "The Man-eating Leopard of Rudraprayag", both by a British civil servant named James Corbett. The first man-eater Corbett killed had claimed over 400 victims in Northern India and Nepal (which earned Corbett a footnote in the Guinness Book of Records).

Corbett believed that a "sixth sense" was simply a case of being so attuned to your surroundings that you subconsciously notice tiny clues without being consciously aware of them. Many others have since stated this as though it were an established fact but I believe Corbett was actually the first to say it.

In "The Man-eating Leopard of Rudraprayag", he described walking alone along a path, returning from a deserted village which had been devastated by the leopard. He had every reason to believe that the leopard was many miles away, so was taking no particular precautions. As he came over a crest in the path, he stopped dead and every hair on the back of his neck stood up, and he *knew* that the man-eater was up ahead lying in wait for him. He unslung his rifle, and walked sideways the entire length of the path, facing downwind (knowing a leopard would never attack from upwind). He never saw so much as a rustle in the bushes, but as soon as he was around the next bend, he immediately doubled back and retraced his steps. There in the soft earth, right where he expected them, were the marks of the man-eater he had been stalking.

Being constantly aware of your surroundings, and knowing the habits and attack characteristics of any wild animal that might pose a threat, are the two most important lessons I would take from that story.

Well now Art, humour is always appreciated, but I bet you still hesitate to go golfing in a lightning storm.

I don't carry a rifle every place I go in the bush, but there are times and places where I certainly have a rifle or shotgun in my hand.
I do mean "IN my hand" quite literally too. I don't mean in my pack, leaning on a log or stuffed behind the seat in the truck.
There are also places where I simply don't go alone if I can help it either.

However I can't be bothered taking the slightest care or precautions about crocodiles or cottonmouth attacks because to me they are very unlikely.
In spite of that I do not make fun of you southern people who take crocodiles and cottonmouth snakes more seriously, and I would never consider making a comment about alien abductions which equated you to the tinfoil hat paranoid crowd.

Exactly. While Art may find the danger associated with lightning strikes negligible it's a really bad analogy. Over here in the mountains we tend to have at least a few fatalities every year due to lightning strikes. It's NOT something to be taken lightly. That's why every seasoned hiker/climber pays attention to the weather. Getting caught in a summer storm while you're all exposed on a barren mountain ridge is a bad idea and could easily cost you your life.

I guess the same goes for everything else. If you hike in an area where bears or cougars are seldom seen the threat may feel very remote. If you happen to be some place where the concentration of potentially dangerous wildlife is that much higher though it gets less academic fast.

NightHiker,

That's exactly it. Depending on where you're going and what you're doing you have to decide what a necessary course of action might be.

For example, A .375 H&H would be out of place if hiking through Central Park, but not if you're planning on trekking around Kodiak Island.

It comes down to weighing the odds and taking well calculated risks. It's simply impossible to be prepared for everything at all times.

NightHiker,

That's a very well-thought out, articulate, and comprehensive post; I don't recall anybody mentioning bear bangers or electric fences on the forum, nor bringing up range cattle as a potential threat.

Though they may not be a factor in your personal risk analysis, for the sake of completeness I'd add moose to your list of potential threats.

The BLM has a report on deterring bears from work areas and facilities (BLM-Alaska Open File Report 97 Deterring Bears from Work Areas and Facilities) which is largely about electric fences.

The BC Ministry of Forests and Range has this to say about moose:

"However, charges from moose, particularly from a cow moose protecting a calf (spring) or from an ornery bull or a bull in rutting season (September) are not uncommon. Although large and of ungainly appearance, they can be extremely quick. If you come in close contact with a moose it is best to back off slowly and detour around it, keeping a nearby tree in mind if a quick escape is necessary.

In relatively densely timbered areas, injury from an attacking moose has been avoided by keeping the body between two trees spaced about one foot apart, i.e. too narrow a space to permit access by the moose because of the wider spread of its antlers."

from Safety manual: mineral exploration in Western Canada, 2002.

If you're going to protect yourself from a *really* dangerous animal, carry mosquito repellent & camp with mosquito netting.

Statistical comparisons of unrelated risks can be useful in allocating resources. For example, if you have $100 to spend a tire pressure monitor for the wife's car is going reduce her overall risks a lot more than getting her some bear spray.

PS. Anyone know what makes a *doe* (not a buck) become aggressive? Twice in the last year I've seen a deer (doe) aggressively chase off a dog in my front yard. I didn't know they did that and would hate to trigger one getting the mail.

In both cases the dog charged the doe while barking. The doe stood in place then charged the dog when the dog got within 10 feet or so. I think the dogs are still running...

Seems to me a lot of people need to start by making common sense decisions that lower the odds they will get into any situation before worrying about bringing artillery.

Running in woodlands with ear buds in and listening to music while thinking about work is a fine way to find yourself in a situation. In the woods it is ear buds out, active listening to the woods, head on a swivel observing the situation. Common sense.

Hiking we once saw a guy who was fishing from a canoe. He had caught a fish and while he was winding it in a gator had grabbed it. There he was, alone, in a small canoe holding his rod in one hand and beating what looked like an 8' gator with a paddle with the other. Very foolish. The alligator could have flipped the boat with a twitch of its tail. It was close enough to grab the man's arm. What would have happened if he had fallen or got pulled into the water? I guess its a matter of values. I'm not willing to die, or have an arm ripped off, for a fish.

I suspect if he thought about it he would agree that it would be better to let the gator have the fish. Hell, let it have the pole. In the end the line broke and the gator took off with his prize. It worked out this time.

Interesting with the Doe.

Is it the same one that is used to the dog? I know we have a couple that stick around here and after a couple days of my dog barking at her she has gotten used to it. If he charges her (on the deck still) she runs... if he gets out he chases them away but they stick around and don't run as far as they used to.

Right now they are eating leftover blackberries.

******************

There aren't dogs at my end of the street - these dogs were from further away.

In both cases the doe never backed off an inch. Once close enough the dogs realized that the deer was BIG, was not running away, uh oh... the doe took off after the dog as soon as the dog changed direction, and the doe kept on the dog's tail at least until they were out of sight. Even a domesticated dog sure can run when motivated...

I have no idea if it was the same doe - we've got a bunch around here. In both cases my attention was on the dog as I first thought it was charging *me*, not realizing there was a doe some ways behind me until the dog's path was clearly missing me.

"Doe kills man" is not exactly a daily headline so I'm not that concerned, but it is a large animal that I actually encounter almost daily that could theoretically be dangerous, and it would be nice to understand what triggers the aggressive behavior... I assume the dogs triggered some newborn/baby defense reflex.

I can completely agree with that statement.
Even if it might mean not entering , or if already there simply leaving an area that is dangerous in some cases.

The point about Bambi's Mom not always being a lady is appropriate too.
So is the comment about range cows.

It might be a surprise to some people if they knew how many farmers are killed by their own livestock and how many pets attack their owners.

Absolutely. I've been chased by a bull more than once and kicked by a horse. Not exactly a pleasant experience.

Were that true, you'd see a great many more cougar attacks. People are in and near cougars a LOT more than they know. In fact, you'd see a large number of wildlife biologists taken. He does say, "...the more you look like a deer..." But we don't ACT like deer. Cougars are small and don't prefer to take chances. The struck-by-lightning comparison is valid. However, if you think being struck by lightning is rare, being attacked by a cougar is rare air indeed. Rarer still is actually being killed by a mountain lion. Small women, the young, and the old, have fended off cougar attacks. He does make decent points about fighting them though. Being able to kill deer doesn't require a lot of size. Bobcats, coyotes, etc can and will take deer...and many of your free-roaming dogs. It's funny how many folks aren't worried about the threat of death by flu but cougars are a concern. If 36,000 people a year died from cougar attacks in the US, and a new breed of really powerful cougars sauntered on in to exacerbate the situation, we'd be sitting in turrets watching fields of fire!

I'm kidding of course. But the liklihood of winning the lottery has to be greater than being attacked by cougars.

The probabilities change depending on where you are, how old you are and what you are doing, Yeti.

You and others might enjoy a short read about cougar from the B.C. government.
Safety Guide to Cougars
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/cougsf.htm

and about bears from
http://www.bearsmart.com/index.html



and
Are you Bear Wise? eBook
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/Bearwise/Publication/196982.html

You know what, I get the flu shot every year, I carry my own pen so I don't have to use any pen that is touched by hundreds of other people when signing credit card receipts, wash my hands as soon as I get into the house or office, have hand sanitizer at my desk at work, make sure I don't touch my hands to my face...all year round, not just in flu season.

I also make sure I don't go out in a thunderstorm or take cover if I am caught in one. I don't play my electric guitar when a thunderstorm is raging just in case of electrocution despite the small probability of that.


How is preparing for cougar or bear attacks if you are in the woods any different than preparing for any other emergency no matter how small the probability?