CARRY A KNIFE. ALWAYS. EVERYWHERE.

Watch this video. All the way through. Even if you're on dialup - wait for it to load.
LISTEN to the audio.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/07/21/wi.car.fire.rescue.amateur

Listen to them scream...

"I need a knife, somebody give me a knife!"

.... as a 4 year old child is BURNING in the car. They did get him out after someone produced a knife. 30% burns on his body.

Yikes.

Glad they got him out of there

Another option, but may be not accessible if the car is burning where this is stored.

http://www.amazon.com/LifeHammer-Orange-...6970&sr=8-1

This is a good knife + seatbelt / rope cutter: http://www.amazon.com/Specialty-Knives-T...030&sr=8-11

There was a similar incident here in SOCAL which I used to rationalize keeping an almost fully serrated Spyderco Rescue in my truck console along with a Benchmade Rescue Hook.

As for "ALWAYS. EVERYWHERE" -- Yes. Sitting here w/no shirt & no shoes, but I have a locking folder clipped in the pocket of my khaki shorts.

They spend a lot of time trying to smash out the windshield.

I have ZERO experience with that, but after seeing that video I suspect even the Life Hammer (which I carry in the compartment between my seats - plus a ResQme on my keychain) would not have helped much with the windshield. He was really struggling to clear it even with a large iron pipe.

Advice from those who've been there?

Their like that to "protect you"... no way of getting around it.

The hammer is for the wide windows that do shatter (well they used too, on new cars not anymore either).

Take old spark plug, smash with hammer, then flick a piece of the porcelain at a back window or side window (depending on the car) of a car you don't use, care about, etc... watch what happens

This only works on the glass that is not safety like the windshield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUgsi9gQBeA&NR

The video is chilling.

I always carry my RSK Mk1 and, in my truck within arms reach, I keep a Smith & Wesson 911 First Response Tool (full serrated blade and glass breaker).

The Life hammer would not of helped much for the windshield. Windshields are laminated glass, you have to cut through the lamentation to remove the glass. The side and back windows are safety glass and will shatter when struck right.

My guess for laminated glass you need to smash it good, then cut it.

I always have my knife clipped in my pocket, a flashlight in my pocket, and each car has a knife and a light in the door as well as a small crow bar.

2 is 1.

-john

Check out the PR video of a Swiss Army Rescue Tool in use.

Laminated glass itself is dangerous in a rescue that requires you to go through it

Swiss Army Rescue Tool Review http://equipped.org/shot_show_2007_knives6.htm

http://equipped.org/shot_show_2007_knives6.htm

Your hyperlink is broke

Thanks

Wow - that is a powerful and frightening video. Very compelling reason to always EDC a knife capable of cutting straps.

Thanks.

Yikes! glad they're safe. Reminder to self keep edcing the supertool, superknife and multiplier.

Lee

Fire extinguisher!

CO2.AFFF, Powder or even water.

Kill the fire.
Kill the threat.

This is a good argument for requiring that every car and home have at least one extinguisher.


And if you don't know which to use on what. Or how to use one it's time that you learned.

Most Fire Departments run basic fire safety courses.

Knife
Fire extinguisher
Leather gloves

Have them in your car always.

This is NOT a criticism of the rescue or rescuers that took place, but I think its interesting the number of bystanders who essentially did nothing - there was even someone so detached from the burning car that they were able to film the entire incident. This matches with my experience at a couple fairly grisly accident scenes: they don't see a way in, they don't see all the victims, they don't see a way to help the victims they know of, they are afraid of moving a victim from a burning car. I'm not critical of the bystanders, I think they basically didn't have a starting point (training and experience) for dealing with this emergency. Some people had good instincts - they saw a victim that had to get out of the car pronto, and started bashing the windshield and trying to get it out of the way. But I don't have any experience in removing a windshield either, and apparently its hard. Lucky for the firefighters arriving on scene, they at least have experience and didn't hesitate to move more glass out of the way.

Its a good scenario to ask yourself though, knowing what you know, knowing what you have in your car, where would you be if it happened today - working on the windshield, wielding a fire extinguisher, or taking the time to film this, or running away because you're afraid the car is about to explode? (they don't, at least not like on TV).

Lono,

Your comments go for large portions of our population.

I once put out a car fire in the parking lot of my graduate school. A classmate came in, somewhat in a panic, used a phone to report the fire. I overheard her, walked toward the parking lot, knowing there was an extinguisher along the way, grabbed it, got to the car, put out the fire. It was really no big deal, except for the woman and her husband (also a classmate) because the fire destroyed the car.

A number of other classmates watched from the library windows and asked afterward how I knew what to do. Truthfully, I am still somewhat amazed that these intelligent people did not have an idea about what to do. The instructions for the use of an extinguisher are right there on the extinguisher. Everyone I have known has seen them time and time again, and I know of no one who has not read them once in a while. So it baffles me, why people would have no idea what to do. My thought is that they do but cannot reach that information in their brains when under pressure. Thaqt's what practice and training is all about.

And your suggestion as to asking yourself what you would do is right on. That's a pretty much practice I learned while in a maritime academy, always be asking yourself such questions. What would you do if _______ occurred? Keep switching a differnet thing going wrong into the blank. When something arises that has gone wrong, you might have already gone over the potential incident in your mind. But at any rate, you've trained yourself to think about incidents.

Sometimes you also need to train under pressure, so you can handle it too.

When you've trained the right way, the training takes over, your mind is prepared to handle the pressure, analyze what's happening, think about how to solve the problems, and take action.

For those who haven't ever done anything like this, they can freeze and not take any action.

And as far as the original title of this thread, YES, a thousand times YES, always carry a knife.

Windshields are not to break. To extricate through a windshield use a good knife to cut the rubber seal and lift the windshield out. Yes, it takes time and tools.

If you google the Swiss Army Rescue Knife they show how to do this in the video, as well as cutting the class with the knife. (Probably wouldn't advice cutting it, looks super dangerous)

Swiss Army Rescue Tool Demonstration

That's it.

I think it's an amazing tool but not something that would warrant an EDC as it's rather limited to the specific tasks it's designed for.

Want an easy windshield breaker? Get one of the "General Tools" (or other brand) spring loaded center punches

Heck - here is the harbor freight version

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=621

http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-Bearing-Automatic-Center/dp/B00004T7RD

You'd be surprized the number of rescue folks who carry one

Centerpunches only work on side windows (unless they are laminated). They are useless for the windscreen (=laminated).

As far carring a knife. It's a delicant balance between scaring people and having a good knife with you. I don't fancy getting fined or arrested for carring a knife. But lifehammers and resqme's are quite effective.

Mine experians with cutting seatbelts is cut at a angle. Not at 90 degrees. Much easier and smoother.

Are The Netherlands really strict on knife carry?

Getting a kid out of a 5-point carseat harness can be a problem. When you release the center buckle, the shoulder straps still form a loop over each arm. If you panic and try to pull the kid out by the arms he isn't going anywhere.

There is also the sternum buckle which are all different. It could be hard to figure out by touch inside a dark, smoky car.

I always have a knife but I'm re-thinking the need for a dedicated belt cutter. Something large and easy to hook and slash with like the Lifehammer of Gerber LMF safety knife. I'd hate to drop a ResQme inside a burning car laying on its side.

I rolled my pickup on its side when I was a teenager. My first thought after stopping was "Crud" and my second was "The windshield is broken, maybe I can bust my way out through it." Reason prevailed and I decided to use the topside door. Luckily a bystander hopped up there to hold it open.

Useful tidbit I learned is that the steering wheel makes a good foothold for climbing out.

As said above, the windshiled is lamanated and even if you can shatter them you still need to break out the window.

The truth is that a serated knife might have gotten through the window faster (the saw part cutting away att the lamanat).

The fastest way to resolve that issue would be a saws all. I said it, a good battery powered saws all woudl have made little work out of the window. a close second would ba a good hatchet or axe. A final third would be the Grit blades on, I think, Gerber, but any of the saw blades that are on multi tools would cut/shatter there way through that front window.

Somthing I haven't seen mentioned here is GLOVES. they would have been able to man-handle the window at the very least had they had gloves. Once the window was smashed there were serveral moments lost, becouse they couldn't move the glass.

If I may be so bold as to sugest the following things to be in our cars, granted most of you probaly have them.

Gloves
Fire extinquisher
Axe, saws all (yes I carry one), something to cut lamanted glass
knife (probably already in your pocket)


if you are a HUGE rescue person you can purcase this tool http://www.extrication.com/glasmaster.htm But it is costly and it will make short work of the front window.


Just ideas from a silly person.

Eric

One problem you have is that most people do not know how to use an extinguisher properly.

What happens is that they give the fire a little squirt, expecting the fire to go out.

Does not happen.

So they give it another squirt.

Same result.

And another, and another, and and other.

Result: empty extinguisher and you still have a fire.


Fire requires three things to exist:
1) Heat.
2) Fuel.
3) Oxygen.

This is commonly known as the "fire triangle".

Extinguishers work by removing one or more sides of the triangle. Either the heat or by depriving the fire of oxygen.

When you attack a fire, you are seeking to overwhelm it. So you must look at the fire. Determine where the base of the fire is and attack it accordingly.

Most Powder and C02 extinguishers operate for about 20- 30 seconds. That is a long time.

Also have a look at this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fire-fighting-petrol-foam-extinguisher.ogg

THis is how NOT to do it. He should have given it one long burst. Not two short ones.

1, A spring tool is useless on front and most back windshields.

2. the way they got in to the windshield is exactly how I would have done it if that was my situation. I am a certified "advanced" auto extrication technician.

3. If they had gotten a little more help yanking that windshield out (just PULL the f'ing thing out after breaking it - the gasket comes out) - that kid would not have had severe burns on 30% of his body. He would have been burned but not as badly.

4. Hollywood hurt that kid. there were people expecting it to "blow up" so they stayed back - the tank was already ruptured and the fuel was leaking out and burning off. The "pops" at the end are the tires blowing out. it sounds like a .22 magnum.

5. I'm surprised that the firefighters didn't have a knife of their own.

Actually, these days, they refer to the Fire Tetrahedron
1) Heat.
2) Fuel.
3) Oxygen.
4) A Sustained Chemical Reaction

Anyway...

Yes yes yes...keep spraying until the fire is out. If you see someone with an extinguisher, and you can bring another one - DO IT. Don't worry about the mess. And - just FYI - water (in sufficient quantities) will put out a car fire.

One other thing - at the end of the video - did you hear them - "spray the kid spray the kid" - water cools burns.

Hopefully you'll NEVER be in this situation...but you CAN do something about it. A little prep and a cool head.

Very good point and may I add have them where you can get to them quickly (though securely restrained in case of your own crash).

Right now my leather gloves and wrecking bar are locked up in the bedbox of my truck. I'll be moving them tonight. At least my spring-punch is in the glove compartment.

-Blast

I have a spare set of nomex flight gloves that don't match my flight suit (color coordination is important ). That spare pair will go into the console with the knife and rescue hook.

I EDC a Benchmade mini-griptillian, but also a lot of equipment in the car:



As you can see there's my trauma-bag, tools and fluids, wool blanket, GHB and an old firefighter-jacket with gloves. Also somewhere in there there's a floodlight, warning-triangle and crowbar.

Driver set-up:



Cheapo LED flashlight and Benchmade 7-hook mounted on the seatbelt.

The one thing we should all think about is that the force of the crash is going to potentially throw everything about. We should consider steps to aid in the prevention of rescue tool migration.

-john

What's the deal with hybrids/electric cars these days? I remember reading some detailed instructions on the web a few years ago. The big concern was the HUGE amperage potential in the batteries and no "off" switch per-se.

Most windshields are not held in by a gasket anymore. My FIL does auto glass, they have all kinds of fancy tools now to remove windshields. They are held in place pretty much by glue/sealant and you cannon remove them without cutting that glue, and its a lot of work to cut that glue/sealant all the way around to get the broken windshields out.

Hybrids are designed to fail safe. The exact method to fully safe the electrical system varies from model to model, but the manufacturers went hard core on making it safe for fire fighters.

In my car, I keep a semi-cheap 5" lockback, and a sharpened Spetnaz shovel. Definantly thinking I need to add an extinguisher.

Right now, I've also got a broadsword in the back, I keep meaning to bring it in, but given that the pommel is more than heavy enough to break glass, it's length, and the fact that is basically an overbuilt crowbar, I'm almost thinking it might stay there.

One of the most intensely stupid things I've seen (several times) are people with a 15-second extinguisher blast available to them, and they're spraying the FLAMES, instead of the source! Jeez!

Somewhat related, where can I find an RV size extinguisher other than paying the over high prices at an rv store?

Define "RV Sized"

I know the large car sized unit I carry is about 2x the size of most car units (2x as tall) and I got it at either the auto parts store or Home Depot - Costco also has units like that

RE Gloves - I have a pair in the pack - but I have to add a set to the cab of the truck - thanks for the reminder - I have a spare flashlight, a otterbox of CR123s, a compass, a fixed blade knife and some bug spray and a few other goodies in the door pocket - the FE is behind the rear seat, as in the Ammobox full of the first aid kit, plus my portable kit is usually in the back under the cap (along with way too much other stuff)

Funny joke
Monday night was "Visit your kids at camp" night, with a picnic dinner. My wife (Mary BTW) who was NOT going to be able to make it says "I left a blanket with their stuff for you" My first thought was "why, I have a larger, better one (both in quality and for the purpose) in the truck at all times." Sigh

Hope its secured down. That's one thing I would never want flying around my car in an accident.

Someday I bet this forum develops its own BOB, truckbed, and car trunk porn section :-) I do enjoy seeing how everyone lays out their preparedness.

I drive a Prius, it has a center console where I keep a pair of leather gloves, knives, and eye protection. there's also a seatbelt cutter in the glove compartment. I keep two pair of medical gloves and face masks in a side pocket driver side, and another on the passenger side. The separate trunk in the Prius is a hatchback, protected from throwing contents about by a retractable fabric screen - probably not terribly reliable, but at least I don't have to show off the entire trunk to every dickwipe who walks by and wants to smash and grab. My fire extinguisher is back there, so far not bolted down (can't find a good/great attachment, the one I had actually broke not too long ago). I need to get off my duff and find a secure metal strap, probably from the local fire suppression supply store.

there's alot of other stuff in my car but that's pretty far off topic. Point is, I use the leather gloves, medical gloves and eye protection pretty regularly (also the D Ritter brand $15 headlamp, which I have almost everywhere), so its fairly natural to get these out and whip them on while getting out of my car.

Almost forgot - for cutting seatbelts I can give a big thumbs up to the Benchmade rescue hook, http://www.thefirestore.com/store/category.cfm/cid_1347_seat_belt_cutters/. That's in my glove compartment. I've tried it in a training rescue and it was like slicing through butter. The training officer liked it too, almost walked away with it...

So, for the car/truck it seems like there is fair agreement on (re: emergency extrication):

* something to cut with (knife, belt cutter)
(I prefer a knife since you can cut smashed laminated glass if needed)
* gloves
* fire extinguisher
* something to break windows with (punch, crow bar, etc)
(I prefer a crow bar since not only can you smash, but you can pry -- stuck door, etc)

I'll add:

* flashlight

The suggestion for eye protection seems good as well.

And everything should be secured so it doesn't fly around in a crash.

Another thing is that I'd suggest your items be within reach considering you might be pinned in place in a crash.

-john

The one suggestion I have is try to include tools that are multipurpose. For example, I carry a full size axe in my car and have a wrecking bar in my wife's car. These tools work well for extracting people from car collisions and also work well for extracting people from buildings damaged during earthquakes.

Yep, as is the greater part of Europe. I always carry a knife and multitool, but unfortunatly without a locking blade.

In the car there are leather gloves and a fire extinguisher and two glassbreakers.

The gloves come in handy in a lot of other situations too.

Good job from those fireman. But I guess they will start on carrying a knife.

Have you tried pulling a smashed windshield recently? Once you shatter it you CAN rip it out and it WILL tear free of the glue. This isn't my opinion, this is my experience. I've done this. More than a few times. In emergencies. We actually prefer to NOT use glass saws now as they raise issues of silicosis from the glass dust. Smash and rip. This was my training in Summer 2008.

that's in my car. A nice tool. I've used it "in real life". Works as advertised. I don't keep in in the glove box I keep it in the door compartment, it's easier to get to. All my "immediate" stuff except the fire extinguiser is in the driver's side door compartment.

Martin - Thanks for that first hand account with the glass and how to man handle it!

This is what my FIL tells me, he replaces glass several times a day. He has some fancy $500 reciprocating saw looking tool with a thinner blade with very fine teeth that more like vibrates than cuts to cut through the glue but he can't use that on very many cars, most he still has to use the hand tools. He has to buy shirts a couple sizes larger because hig upper arms are so large from tugging on those cutting tools. He's complained about the new glued in windshelds for a long time now since they are so hard to get out.

I believe the difference in windshield removal here is the end use. If one wants a surface that is ready for a professional re-installation of a windshield for the vehicle owner/operator, then the proper tool and due diligence is required during the removal. If one is trying to extricate the owner/operator from an already wrecked or burning vehicle, the ability to re-install a windshield is on zero concern.

BTW, unplanned and inexperienced field testing has shown me that a windshield can be ripped out after breaking it, but it is a lot of work for one out of shape man and a 14 y/o boy. Oh yeah, good gloves help also....

Ah yes, what we need is another government requirement!

Yes, a Rescue Hammer and a fire extingusher should be carried, but Please, not a mandate.

In my glove box are gloves, flashlight, eye protection, mask and a seat belt cutter. On the floor, in front of the front seat is a standard fire ext. (mounted to the floor). In the trunk are another ext., first aid, and a WWII one handed fire axe (plus lots more for other types of emergencies.

The axe is GREAT for opening cars, windshield or sheet metal (LOTS slower). It smashes and cuts the laminate at the same time. Can also be used to pry or pull glass out of the way. Also great for prying.

Knives are in my pockets. Except in the secure areas of airports and on airliners :-(((.

Jerry

Oh, yeah, those are great - if you care to keep the car intact. In a rescue situation it's totally different - you no longer care about the car, so you do things - ahem - quickly.

Picture this - you smash a line along the headliner and the dashboard- then you smash a vertical line so now you have a door-like solid section of glass. Punch a few holes in the upper and lower corners and PULL. If it does not rip out right away, smash a little more along your previous lines. Punch a few holes in there. A Stanley FUBAR tool is great for this too. With 2-3 strong people you can tear the window to a point where it flops open like a hinged door. You use the glue to your advantage to give you a swinging door. It's not EASY but it is possible.

OK, thats different than pulling at out at the gasket as you stated earlier, thats where I was saying newer cars the window isn't held in by a gasket so they just won't pull out, so you either have to cut the sealant or the glass as you now say. Or as thin as the steel is in these new cars I bet a small saw could cut it about as fast

I assumed there is/was a standard rv size since there is small plastic recessed mount in mine.

I noticed in several posts that a few people have things in their glove boxes and consoles. This is great for helping other people in their time of crisis.
However, if YOU are the one in crisis you may not be able to reach your tools.

About 10 years ago, I was involved in an accident involving the 18 wheeler I was driving. The truck rolled onto its side. During the roll my seat belt broke and I ended up with my back pressed against the passenger side door staring out the driver's side window at the bright blue South Carolina sky. Things could have been much worse I came out with a scratch or two and a headache.
I learned several very important lessons that day including that things don't always stay put in a crash. This could include you. Unless it is well secured things will fly around. Kinetic energy is wonderful. If you need your cell phone don't expect it to be where you can reach it after a crash. Mine ended up flying out the window and landing in the middle of the road.

On a side note, it is required by law that all Commercial Motor Vehicles must contain a working fire extinguisher at all times.

My buddy has a USMC issue Kabar strapped to his rollcage. I asked him about it one day and he told me about getting trapped by the seatbelt in a rollover one time and the rig caught on fire. He barely managed to get out and said it'll never happen that way again.

I keep a razor-sharp S&W pocket knife clipped to my front left pocket 24/7. I need to try it out on an old seatbelt one day, but I'm sure it'll do nicely.

Oh, one question - is it all right if I don't CARRY the knife, but leave it clipped to my pants when I'm in the shower, or in bed?

Only if you wear your foil hat.

I have mine in my bag on the nightstand by my bed all night. I'm tempted to start taking it in the bathroom when I shower...

You might want to reconsider this, if you wake up in the "coyote in a leghold trap" scenario.

Good point, thanks. I cleaned some crap out of the driver's side door compartment and now have the rescue hook there for easier access. Ya never know.

I can reach the pants when I'm in bed, so...

Pretty much ditto in the shower - the pants are in the room

FWIW, this recent news story appears to be about the aftermath of the incident in the video:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/community-helps-year-dramatic-rescue/story?id=8586599

I despair for the future of my country when a major aerospace firm whose employees have passed background checks for security clearances up to and including polygraphs, and who are largely military veterans, has a "no knives or multi-tools anywhere at any time" policy.

Next office move I'll call Security to come open the taped boxes for me. My fingernails aren't sharp enough for the job and teeth won't reach. I wonder what HR uses to open their packages?

Hey Al Queda- come and get us! We promise to surrender quickly! Just don't hurt us, ok? Would you like a teddy bear?

The Policy reminder-
" <subdiv> employees and affiliates (non-company employees) are reminded that they must know and adhere to all Corporate and <subdiv> security policies. Of particular note is Corporate Policy Statement xyzzy (Workplace Security) which outlines requirements for employee conduct and behavior, and prohibits weapons on <company> Property.

The inclusion of knives in <subdiv> policy xyzzy, (Prohibited Items), has recently raised several employee questions. To clarify, this prohibition applies to all knives, including pocket knives and multi-use tools that include a knife blade. Knives fall into the ‘weapons’ category, and as such, are not authorized on <company> property. The only exceptions granted are for employees and affiliates who require knives to perform work assigned to them by <company>. Violations of this policy may include disciplinary action, up to and including termination of employment.

Exceptions to xyzzy for knives required for the performance of <company>-sponsored work must be requested in writing to your Facility Security Officer, <name withheld>. "

I would be looking for employment elsewhere.

I expect that this is Standard Policy #xy from the HR Professionals List of Standards for All Companies Everywhere. Might even be an ISO standard or something. No sense changing employers only to find the same silliness at the next place.

There's a reason why I refer to them as the "Anti-Personnel Dept."

If the security office needs written requests for permission to carry, perhaps you could have everyone wanting to carry write all at once.
If security is besieged by 50-100 (or more) requests all at the same time, they may reconsider. However, there is usually a clause in the employee conduct info, that states you can't petition other employees to join/participate in outside activity. Unfortunately, they may view this as such.

What a bunch of bozos! I agree, people who go play all the reindeer games of getting and maintaining security clearances and access privileges are the least of the companies worries. They are at more risk from corporate espionage. We have clearances walk a pretty circumspect life so that we can maintain those clearances. I repeat, what a bunch of bozos!

Just watched the video. I think I'm gonna have nightmares for awhile.

Yes, to nightmares.
I read the follow up story ThSeng posted. The kid lost his ears and had other serious burns too. He was just released today on the 16 Sept.
That is a long time in hospital.