In Car Fire Extinguishers

We've talked about them for home and now it's time to make sure you have one in your car that is RATED for use one electrical, and fuel fires.

These type of Fire Extinguishers are more $$ but can be useful to stop a blaze from overtaking your entire car if you get to them fast. If not, then just step away.

I suggest getting one that is rated for your car, but also can be used on a brush fire too. Only get 2 if you can tell the apart in an emergency.

My Pops always told me that the fire extinguishers in the car/boat were not to put out your own car/boat fire, they were for the other guy's.

I mean, cars can be engulfed really fast and I doubt I'm going to be digging around for the exinguisher as much as getting myself and my 3 yo unbelted and the heck out of there.

I agree though that having them is a good idea, just for different reasons.

Interesting.

I totally disagree.. maybe that's because I've seen several small electrical fires ranging from under the dash in boats and cars to small engine/hose fires on boats.

Usually you can tell if it's small, or rapidly taking over the vehicle use your own judgment to put it out or get away as soon as possible.

In a boat, your worst enemy is fire. Jumping into the water is not always an advisable alternative. Fighting the fire, even if you are left with a burnt out floating hulk, can be preferable to hopping in the drink. Hypothermia, drowning and marine life can all cause problems.
In a car, I would think it is a good idea, but more so for the other guy. If I have evacuated my vehicle and its occupants are safe, I say let it burn. That's why I pay insurance. I would rather wait for the settlement check at home than in the burn ward undergoing skin grafts.

Normally I say let 'er burn too. But from the What If Dept, over the weekend 2 off duty firefighters rescued a 4 year old from a burning SUV. From the video it seems clear that a fire extinguisher on its own wouldn't have knocked down the flames entirely. A fire extinguisher *might* have provided some supplemental fire suppression and prevented the child from being burned as badly, then again the real struggle was to get him and the others out of the vehicle. In other words - if I were there, I might have directed my auto fire extinguisher to suppress flames, then again if there was room to help haul the kid out quickly I might also have dropped the extinguisher to help out. No quibbles from me with what they did to rescue - split second decisions to effect rescue literally from the flames. There is full video of the incident and an interview of the firefighters up on MSNBC. Pretty intense stuff. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32006584/.

I saw the video earlier today on TV. Kudos to the off-duty firefighters for their heroic, lifesaving action.

That's very true about boats I hadn't thought of that side of things (critters in there).

-Todd

I do believe somebody did have an extinguisher but I think they were using it while they were extracting the little boy, plus some garden hose.

If somebody had a reasonable size extinguisher, they could have either knocked down the flames right away before it got that large or at least bought them a few more seconds. While watching the video I was hoping that they weren't going to try spraying the gasoline fire with it because that wouldn't have done much good.

2 off-duty firefighters without a knife between them! Oops!
One fellow mentioned that he normally carries one but didn't for some reason that day. His brother got a knife out from his vehicle to cut the seat belt.

I'm going to have to remind my nephew of this - he's a smoke jumper in northern Alberta - always carry a knife! Even off-duty.

Just one of those days... sometimes I forget the knife when I`m in a hurry and frankly I feel naked with out It's become a habit of checking for my knife when I check for my wallet (patting).

I keep halon (or whatever the replacement is to halon) extinguishers in each car within reach of driver belted in the seat. I've seen too many incidents working at race tracks over the years to do otherwise. I like the halon as it avoids the caustic powder mess if you are only dealing with a small fire.

Whatever you do, if you carry an extinguisher in a car, use a mounting bracket. One designed for mobile applications, not a cheap plastic wall hanger. A fire extinguisher becomes a lethal missile in a collision.

Craig.

Good advice about holding something in place.

A friend of a friend died after getting in an accident and a hammer that was floating around smashed their skull. They survived the auto 'accident' but the hammer missile finished them

Some other countries ( Brazil, for example ) require fire extinguishers in the vehicle. They are normally mounted in front of the front passenger seat on the floor. I was looking for one for my car, and after doing an internet search, found out you could get OEM mounting brackets for common sizes, but they are not readily available in the U.S.

I do carry a fire extinguisher, unfortunately, it's not mounted. (Yes, the top is protected!). I also carry a set of gloves, per the training I've had before. I will add one of those rescue knives.

In front of the driver's seat is where you want to mount it. You want to be able to reach it while belted into the driver's seat. Most of the German manufacturers (BMW, Mercedes, Audi) make brackets for their cars to satisfy requirements of various countries. The key is to find a source for these non-North American parts.

First link I tried found what looks like a good steel fire extinguisher mounting bracket - http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.cfm/pid_4709_amerex_vehicle_marine_aviation_bracket/. I think I should be able to find one like it at a local storefront. At least it doesn't look like we'll have to special order from the EU or from the local BMW / Mercedes car parts pirates.

Looks like the brackets that came on my larger ext. from Costco.

I don't know about Mercedes, but the BMW bracket fits perfectly into predrilled locations in the front seat. Installation is super easy and has a "factory" look. BMW also has its own fire extinguisher, but that's a story for another day. Could be worth paying a little more for an easy, clean installation. YMMV.

Craig.

In another thread, First Alert's Tundra fire extinguishing spray was mentioned. Any thoughts on if this would be a good alternative for cars?

From a size perspective, it seems like it could be easily stored in a glove box or console, eliminating the whole mounting issue.

My reservations on this type of extinguisher is loss of pressure over time because of a cheap, plastic, spray can-type valve. This is particularly an issue in a car subject to a wide range of temperatures. As it does not have a pressure gauge, you won't know anything is wrong until you go to use it.

Craig.

This topic is more "General" than just Urban - going to do my first "Management" attempt, and move it upstairs to the general survival forum

I see nothing wrong with fighting a car fire. Trying to minimize damage should not be a problem, but the risks should be considered. If fighting the fire presents to hihg a risk of injury, then let it burn.

The risks on the water are much higher. You need not be far away from land for the risks to be such that you have few choices other than to fight the fire. You may have a life raft, but getting into it you risk vomiting, and therefore dehydration, exposure and hypothermia, because most rafts leak, and that's if the raft works WELL. If the raft fails, the risks are higher. A former engineer of mine went into the water for minutes, less than 1/4 mile from land. His crewmates saw him and tried immediately to get him out, but he did not come out alive.

Also, never forget, fighting a fire in on a boat or ship with water presents another risk: you could sink if you pour too much water on the fire.

Okay, we've said that an extinguisher rated for car-likely fires is good. But what exactly is the kind of extinguisher/rating for these situations? No one has said. I am all ears... or eyes, whatever.

Well there is a difference between rated for car fires and rated for car fires and won't harm the electronics... which do you want to know about?

I'll pipe in ... how about all the above (I know nothing about car extinguishers).

Same here. School us.

Since other more reliable and knowledgeable sources seem reluctant to respond, I'll take a shot at it.

As related above, I use halon or clean agent halon which is what replaced halon after it was discovered that halon apparently causes ozone depletion. Halon is the same gas used to protect computer rooms. The benefit of halon is that it does not leave behind a caustic residue like dry powder extinguishers which will cause havoc to a car interior. The lack of powder residue is helpful if dealing with a small fire. The halon extinguisher is bolted to the front of the drivers seat where I can reach it while belted in the seat.

That said, I keep a standard 5lb ABC dry powder extinguisher in the trunk as well as a back up. I like the knock down power of the ABC, but there will be a substantial mess to clean up.

I believe the the best compromise between halon and dry chemical is CO2 which is what sits in my garage. Unfortunately, the CO2 extinguishers need to be rather large to be effective and are thus not favored for in-car installation.

YMMV.

Craig.

I carry a 5lb ABC in my vehicle. When I was with the fire company I carried a 20 LB ABC. They make a huge mess. They work well on a lot of things.

I used to have some CO2 extinguishers. They were always empty after the kids discovered that they made dry ice.

Here is my uneducated thinking about car fires.

One question is if the extinguisher is going to be reachable if the car is burning. If reaching the extinguisher places you at risk of getting burned it is not worth fighting the fire. Sorry but true. If the the car is already burning then an extinguisher inside it is a hazard rather than a help, especially if reaching it places you in harms way. Not only does trying to get it place you at risk from the fire, the pressurized extinguishers are potential bombs.

I think the biggest fire hazard in a car is battery driven electrical and fuel fires, mostly from under the hood. In an accident wires are often shorted together from the impact and making sparks, sometimes even just heating to the flash point temperature without sparking. Disconnecting the battery can remove that source of ignition.

If you are early enough to be concerned about the condition of the upholstery in a car you should be able to extinguish the fire with your bottle of drinking water.
If it is past that time then you are already past being worried about how much of a mess the extinguisher makes, and are likely past the insurance company's write off point for damages to the car.

If there is a fuel tank rupture you are looking at a large amount of fuel and again the mess from the chemicals are not going to be much of a concern.
In the case of a fuel tank starting to burn I would be more concerned about making sure everybody was clear of it, not because I expect it to explode like in the movies, but because leaking fuel spreads and burns fast with a lot of heat. Ten gallons of gasoline running all over the road and flaming is definitely a job for professional firefighters and certainly not a job for panicked accident victims with a small extinguisher.
Safety first, get the people clear of a fire hazard then fight it if it makes sense, but do the first aid for the victims before worrying about saving the vehicle. It is better to let the vehicle burn and save a life instead if you need to choose.

...Now there are other reasons to have a small extinguisher handy in your car. It might be somebody else's car on fire, or the fire might not be a car at all.
So I think yes for a small extinguisher, but with some cautions.
____
Does that about sum it up?

I keep a Kidde 2.5-pound automotive extinguisher strapped to my rollcage in the Jeep, right behind the driver's seat. Easy access, even when rolled over and belted in. I've seen too many offroad rigs get burned to the ground.

Don't bother with the car in a car fire - protect exposures (houses and such) you can't really save a car that has fully ignited. If you can put it out in the first few SECONDS of fire, you might save it. Once the fire is in the passenger compartment - it's over.

Have to second this one.

Unless it might be a collectable, or have a loan against it and you forgot to pay the insurance bill this month LET IT GO.

There is not much worse than a car that has been repaired after a fire or flood. Well, except the burn ward.

OK, here is what I'm looking for (click on the thumbnail for a big image)

I need one sized to fit that hole.

If it were me, I'd take some measurements and go to a Lowes. They should have one that fits.

Tried that already

Must have been an unusual bottle. Looks like it's time to break out the carpentry skills and install a mount for a standard bottle of your choice -- don't skimp.

Yea, I was just trying to not rebuild everything at once

I bet that was for one of the old "home" size halon units. They were smaller like that.

Cut out the neck holder with a dremmel and attach a mount in the existing hole. That way you can use the existing strap as a secondary retention device.

Dry powder fire extinguishers simply aren't all that good for vehicle fires. Unless the powder can get to all of the fire directly your less likely to extinguish it. It is also weak because it doesn't cool the base of the fire and it doesn't do much to slow the spread and buy time unless the surface is one where the powder can build up on.

Halon and/or foam would be my choice, assuming a perfect world. Halon does a great job of getting around tangles of hoses and wire to get to the fire. Halon has excellent knockdown power. The Halon replacements aren't as good but they are still head and shoulders over any other type for knockdown of a flame front. Foam does pretty well itself but dry powder is, in comparison, pretty lame. Yes, the powder goes everywhere, but not in sufficient quantities to do much good if you can't hit the fire directly.

The second point is that dry powder tends to simply fall away from where it would do some good. I have seen automotive fires where there were pretty substantial mounds of powder on the ground after they hauled away the burned out hulk away. They must have shot a dozen of the small dry chemical units, seemingly every extinguisher in a block of apartments, at what was a rather small fuel fire under the hood. But they couldn't get a straight shot and what they sprayed simply fell off and piled up under the car.

Which is an unfortunate characteristic of the agent. It doesn't stick well to much of anything. At least it doesn't until time to clean it up. It's unwillingness to cling means that unless the area is flat you can't use it to slow or eliminate the the spread of the fire. With foam you can coat and wet even the vertical surfaces around a fire. This can be a used to good effect on a fire that may be too big to put out to buy yourself time. Time to get people out, flee, or for help to arrive. Working from the outside in is a sound tactic.

People who are impressed by dry chemical extinguishers power to put out a fuel fire have usually used it on a standard pan-type training fire. Against a horizontal pool of fuel, where you can get a square shot, it works well.

Take a tenth that amount of fuel and dribble it down a vertical surface and try to put it out and there is a god chance you run out of extinguisher before you run out of fire. The powder keeps falling off so you have to corral the fire. If you can work your way bottom to top and get all the flame before your empty your golden. If not the last lick of flame relights the whole thing.

This is also how you extinguish a jet of fuel. Very impressive killing a 30' column of fire with a hand-held unit. Not so hard if you know the trick and practice. Wear suitable protective gear because failure to kill all the flame at close range means your going to be very close to a huge flashback.

I wouldn't give the electrical system on a vehicle a second thought. Your talking 12 to 24 volts and even fresh water is okay. In marine systems seawater is considered safe around such low voltages. The fire is always more of a hazard than the danger you may get a tingle. This may change as electric vehicles become common.

All that said most vehicles, if they carry a fire extinguisher at all, carry a small ABC type dry powder unit. First they chose a type that is not efficient, then they compound the error by selecting the smallest unit possible. A 2.5 pound unit is barely suitable for putting out a lit Zippo lighter IMHO. A trained and experienced firefighter might do some good with it but it is simply too small to do much good in the hands of someone who is uncertain what to do and how.

My philosophy is that if your going to carry a fire extinguisher carry one adapted to the job and get the largest one that is practical. There are no prizes for second place. ABC type extinguishers are inherently inefficient on many fires so you need biggest you can manage. Go big. A ten or twenty pounds unit isn't too big.

Don't be fooled into worrying that a larger extinguisher will make a bigger mess. It can, but only if you keep the lever squeezed. If the fire goes out before the powder is gone your not obligated to keep shooting. Far, far better to run out of fire before you run out of agent.

I've seen halon used in car fires at the track & I've watched a dry chemical unit used on a motor home fire on the interstate. The performance difference (to my untrained eye) was very significant.

Several decades ago I used to work at "Big 3" automotive proving ground in Michigan. While there I took a driver safety training course. When they talked about car fires that had just one specific bit of advice:

Before you get out of the car pull the hood release from inside the car.

They said that an engine fire will typically damage the engine-end of the hood release cable preventing fire crews from being able to unlatch and open the hood, which really limits their access when extinguishing the fire.

That's great advice & something most folks wouldn't think of in advance!

That is great advice. I will add that after close to 20 years as a volunteer FF opening a hood on a burning car is not at all hard. But is MUCH easier when you notice that the hood has been popped already.

A good piece of advice.

There is another piece of advice that should be so much common knowledge and common sense that everyone does it automatically. It ought to be done automatically but too often it gets missed.

If the vehicle crashes, is on fire, or might be on fire: TURN THE IGNITION OFF.

I have seen the results where a driver saw smoke and stopped on a median but didn't turn off the ignition. They ran across the street and called 911. By the time the fire truck arrived flames were shooting out from under the hood. The engine was still running. The fuel pump and radiator fan feeding the fire.

Firemen reached inside and turned off the ignition and the fire quickly went from raging hot fire to a slow sooty flame. They then used two large dry chemical extinguishers shooting from both sides after they got the hood open to put it out.

To this day the scene amazes me. How could someone miss something so basic and common sense? Contemplating such stupidity is exhausting.

In my case, and most of my friend's offroad vehicles, we have to pull the hood pins out to open the hood.