Canyons and PLBs

I just got back from my trip down to Utah and managed to spend some time in tight canyons. I can use my map/compass pretty well but GPS is my primary nav tool. Just like every canyoneering book said no GPS signal in canyons for miles. That got me wonder... how would a PLB fare in such an environment? I'm all for walking a few steps (tired/injured) to get my signal but when I downloaded my waypoints I had 1.5 mile gaps.

what your into is like alot of our outdoor "hobbys". like my solo canoeing you just have to accept the risks or find something else to do..i would assume a PLB would need some open sky to get a fix--not much in that great photo--

Question for you Matt, with the new GPS chip sets like the garmin etrex HCX for example, have you tried getting a location in the cannons to see if you can get a lock. The Fast Find 210 for example appears to have a better chip set and seems to acquire similar to my HCX, although I would like to see more test done if Doug gets the funding but I would probably venture to say if you can't get anything off a new gps set then the newer chip set plbs won't either. All the old PLBs more than likely not get one either. Now with Acr coming out with there new line, and the fast find 2x series and a possible Spot 2.0, I think the performance will get a lot better with time. In a canyon like that, depending on the walls, I wonder how high you would have to travel to get a fix. I know this will sound silly, but there are some divers that put a etrex in a otter box and attach a line to it and let it go to the surface to get a fix and then pull it back down, I wonder if you could do that with a small balloon and string, but you would have to carry around a small helium tank and hope that the wind doesn't get it.

I'm just trying to think of a way you could set off a PLB with a broken hip in a deep canyon and get a signal out. The rescue kite is definitely out. Hmmmm

Remember the radio segement of the PLB will still be transmitting. That will allow for notification without GPS fix. Eventually a combination of triangulation, and the trip plan you left with friends and authorities will complement each other to aid in your location. You did leave a trip plan, right?

While I lived in Alaska doing SAR I used to joke that helium baloon with a long copper filiment on a spool, Much like a fishing line. would be a great way to extend the range of a radio or cellphone in case of such emergencies.

Perhaps this is an idea for the invetors on this list.

The idea of using a hydrogen filled balloon to lift a wire antenna to extend radio range is neither far fetched nor new! It was used during and after World War 2 in the U.S. military's SCR-578 (Gibson Girl) emergency radio transmitter. The radio was packed as part of survival equipment in large aircraft and was intended to help in locating survivors of a crash. In addition to box kites, the radio kit included balloons, and hydrogen generators to raise a wire antenna. Probably not a practical idea for a backpacker but at least not completely impossible either.

http://www.questmasters.us/GIBSON_GIRL.html

http://www.wftw.nl/gibsongirl/gibsongirl.html

While you may not get a GPS location (and I have no idea how that will work with the latest high sensitivity GPS chips in the new PLBs), our experience in testing is that the 5-watt 406 MHz signal will get out, bouncing off the walls, and that a alert and Doppler location will be provided. Combined with a good trip plan left with your emergency contacts or in the Additional Information field on the NOAA registration site, that should suffice to get you rescued.

Matt, I'd love to know which GPS you're using and if it has a later generation high sensitivity chip like the Garmin H series.

My gut tells me that the new Garmin chipset (eg., GPSMAP 60CSx) would receive GPS signals bouncing down those walls.

I'm using Vista Cx taht is about 3 years old... I don't think it has the New chip in it but than again I got married in october and had two choose between new Garmin gps or new pack and I got a new pack.

Me too.

The eTrex Vista Cx does not have the high sensitivity chip set. I suspect also think the high sensitivity chip sets would get a fix. This means that the McMurdo Fast Find - which I'm pretty sure has a high sensitivity GPS - would probably also get a GPS fix.

Ken

Somehow, I must have missed this piece of exciting news. My apologies for missing out on congratulating you sooner. Welcome to the club .

Pete

I was pretty impressed with how quickly and where the Fastfind 210 got a GPS fix when I assisted Doug in his recent testing (which somehow found me in a pool getting sprayed in the face by Doug wielding a garden hose). I can't tell you if it would get a GPS fix in that canyon, but I would bet my life on it getting a fix anywhere a Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx would. I would not be surprised if it achieved a GPS fix in areas the 60CSx would struggle.