Do I need to replace my compass?

I have a Suunto A-10. A couple of months ago I went on a overnight snowshoe/backcountry snowboarding trip in the Adirondacks, the temp was about 5 - 20 Fahrenheit. When I got home I noticed my compass had an air bubble in the liquid. I really have no idea what exactly the liquid consists of, some sort of silicon/alcohol mixture maybe? I am sure someone here can answer that. Anyway the bubble has since gone. Should I be concerned about the integrity of my compass or should this be expected with the low temps due to the liquid possibly expanding/contracting?

As this is my only compass and they are pretty cheap I should probably have an additional one anyway, but am curious about the air bubble all the same.

Thanks,
Mike

Your Suunto is fine.This is a common mechanical reaction to extreme temperatures.

In general, the view of the compass makers is that a small bubble certainly doesn't harm the functionality of the compass and is fairly common in liquid-filled compasses, especially in very cold weather.

Still, at least with higher end compasses, if the bubble gets large enough to bother you, or interfere with the movement of the compass needle, most of the companies will repair the compass at little cost, or more likely no cost.

I've had to send a few compasses into Brunton for various repairs, and they've always been very good to me. I would assume Suunto would be similar, though I'm not sure where you'd need to send the compass (to Europe?).

BTW, from what I understand, the liquid is something similar to mineral oil - maybe with some anti-static agents added.

Ken

Right on, no reason to worry. It can happen to any liquid-filled compass in cold weather or during air travel (low pressure).

Wow. Great timing for the compass question. To answer your question before I possibly hijack this thread, a bubble will not harm the integrity of your compass. Bruntons are notorious for bubbles and I researched it pretty hard online.

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Thinking of swapping out the Silva Ranger I EDC for something lighter and smaller, like my Brunton 8096 Adventure Racing compass or actually was thinking of buying the Suunto A-10. I'll continue to back up with a micro dry button.

The 8096 and A-10 are both lighter (25% & 50% respectively) but the Ranger has a mirror which is my back up to the 2oz signal mirror i carry.

Not stuck on any one make/model. This is not a choice of a primary for the back country, just an around town, city travel compass.

Suggestions or thoughts?

Plenty of options. Speaking of Suunto, which just happens to be my favorite brand and is easily available almost anywhere on the planet, I believe the A-10 would make a fine backup compass. Of course, there are the A-20, 30 and 40, each a step up as far as the bells and whistles go. It all depends on what features you're looking for.

Another excellent choice would be the Arrow 20 (or 30). Very similar but somewhat more of a competition compass.
Arrow 20

Or even the M-9 if you like the idea of wearing a compass on your wrist. Easily the best wrist compass I've ever seen:
M-9

Though as you're probably well aware yourself, in the field where accuracy and reliability really matter nothing beats a mirror compass. Preferably one with a fairly large bezel (conducive to precision). My primary compass these days is the Suunto MC-2 with global needle. Not only does it work anywhere on the planet, the needle sets super fast and accuracy is superb. It's the kind of compass I wouldn't mind betting my life on in a serious situation.
MC-2

The Suunto 'A' models have fixed declination scales.

I MUCH prefer compasses with adjustable declination scales, such as the Suunto 'M' models - my own favorite being the M-3.

I also like the Brunton 8010G and 9020G, but the dials look a bit, well, cheap. The Brunton Eclipse models (8097, 8096, and 8099) are VERY high quality, but kind of expensive compared to the Suuntos.

I just looked up the price of the Brunton 8097 - about $26-$30. Not bad for such a nice compass.

I'd recommend one.

A litte-recognized feature of the 'Eclipse' compasses is the magnified bearing reading area - makes it MUCH easier to read for those of us with older eyes.

I have the Brunton 8096. Its a great compass.

I suppose this goes to the crux, does an EDC item need to be the best you own, life depends on it every time you use it, or something that is sturdy, dependable, lightweight and does what you need when you need it.

I guess in my mind, my most hardcore gear goes into my BOB or with me depending on the 'mission'.

(i.e. a cell phone will be in my EDC. A PLB in my BOB or on me if I go into the back country)

The A-20 would probably be just right for shooting an azimuth in town or in a open park. Its a 1/2 ounce lighter than the Brunton 8096. And the 8096 could stay in my BOB.

Be carefull not to fall into the 'cheap' trap.
The phenomenon of lost hikers deciding their compass was somehow faulty and relying on some 'mental template' of the terrain is not uncommon.

That 'cheap' Suunto would make the units used to discover this whole continent look pretty crude.

I mapped a archaeologic site previous to excavation using my Silva( present Suunto in the USA) Ranger. A visitng archaeologist decided I was seriously in error and proceeded to remap everything with his tripod mounted, solid brass surveyor's BRUNTON compass with assistance from a comely coed. In triumph, he announced my map was off 20 feet from the development company's survey marker.

It was rather unpleasant, pointing out the old AERO windmill that had been a local landmark for 60+ years was MY official surveying benchmark, and had been used a full 6 months before the county marker was placed there for future road improvements AND that my map was done in meters.

If you visit the Reagan Presidential Library, that Aero windmill is STILL there, while the survey marker is not.

Trust your gear.

The original post didn't mention anything about an EDC, but rather the were asking about bubbles and the possibility of buying a 2nd or backup compass.

I've never thought of weight as being a criteria for selecting a compass.

The primary features I look for are adjustable declination and a straight edge on at least one side.

For EDC, my preferred compass is the Suunto Gem since it has a straight edge and a rotatable bezel.

Watch out carefully for the Eclipse Brunton's. A bubble in a compass card type compass like these can stop the card from rotating completly.

I have had 3 compass capsules replaced by Brunton when a bubble locked up the card.

The design of these high end Brunton's is in my view completely unreliable in the field.

I have yet to have one of these Eclipse compasses make it to high elevation without completely siezing up.

A small to moderate sized bubble in a needle type compass is generally nothing to worry about...the same size bubble in an eclipse can push the compass card right off the pivot making it expensive junk.

There is a great deal of truth in this. I have been "turned around" once. I would have sworn an oath, and bet any money, the compass was wrong. But I sat down, had a snack and a good drink of water, and talked myself through it. I had checked the compass before I left, and it swung true every time. It was in all likelihood swinging true now. So I followed it back to the road, and my car was right where I left it.

Then, and now, as I'm packing for a trip, I have a ritual: I take my compass to a place I know (a true north/south road). I shake it, swirl it around, several times. If it comes back true every time, I know I can trust it.

Believe me, it's a powerful thing to know "for a fact" that your gear is accurate when your perception deceives you.

This past summer another geo and I were tasked with some mapping...our maps didn't agree with El Jefe's Tripod-Mounted Brunton, so we were obviously wrong...even though we KNEW we were, if not 'right,' at least 'more correct.'

//by the by, no Bruntons were EVER made from brass; they've always been aluminum.

So, halfway through the project, El Jefe had all of his employees CHANGE THEIR DECLINATION FROM NOAA'S REPORTED so that their results more closely resembled El Jefe's plots...accuracy aside, this confounded everybody's interpretation - except for El Jefe's, since 'corrected' declination or not (he wasn't too clear between the two even when he wasn't drunk), El Jefe was the boss.

By the by, El Jefe is under charges. Spend a few million bucks over a season and the client expects results. Who coulda guessed?

So yeah, trust your equipment. And knowledge. And be ready to suggest work gets audited. And know your declination.

The Silva Eclipse is a P.O.S.

Avoid it. If you need a decent sighting compass buy something like this:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Silva_Sighting_Compass.jpg

Or if weight is not an issue buy a Cammenga.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Silva_Sighting_Compass.jpg.

This version, not the tritium. Your children will inherit it and tritium is only good for 10 years.

From personal experience they are both bomb proof.

Just to be clear, compasses sold with the Silva label in Europe are sold in the U.S. under the Brunton label (or sometimes the Nexus label).

Compasses sold in the U.S. with the Silva label are NOT made by Silva of Sweden.

Yeah, I've heard all the folks who say they don't like Brunton's Eclipse 8099 (sold in Europe under the Silva label), but I've had both the Brunton 15TDCL (the original Silva Ranger) and the Brunton Eclipse 8099 for quite a while, and I really REALLY like the 8099. I find it much easier to do sighting with, though I find it hard to explain exactly why. I also like the magnified area for reading bearings.

I keep trying to like the 15TDCL better - I really do. I've even been carrying it with me a bunch for the last two years. It is simpler and doesnt' have cards that get in the way, but I just like the 8099 better.

The 8099's mirror clicks into just the right spot. The magnetic decliantion is fool-proof - not screwdriver to deal with. The dial is easy enough to turn I can do it one-handed. The mirror, though smaller, provides a much better view of the needle area (don't know why - I wonder if the mirror is higher quality?). The eclipse circles feel good to me - better than trying to make the 15TDCL's needle & box edges parallel. I've read someone say that the 45 degree angle of the sighting mirror the eclipsing doesn't work right - that's not the case on my compasses. The rubber boot means I don't have to worry about scratching the bottom of the compass.

I actually have two 8099's. The first one was purchased a long time ago - maybe 10+ years ago??, and as others have said, it developed a bubble. I was about to head out on a trip, so in a bit of a panic I bought a second one. I got the first one repaired, and since then neither have developed bubbles. I had talked with a Brunton service person when I had the repair done, and she told me that they did have a bubble problem early on, but that they had done design changes to minimize those problems.

Whether the bubble problem is truly a thing of the past is true or not, well, I only have a sample size of 2, but so far so good.

I also have a Cammenga compass. I bought it to learn what the fuss over lensatic compasses was about. It is one really tough compass and does everything its built to do. I really like the fluid-less dampening system - cool!. Still, I simply don't buy that it is any more accurate than the 8099. Heck, the degree scale on the Cammenga is in 5 degree units. The scale in the 8099 is in 1 degree units. I would guess that the 8099 is probably more accurate since I can better aim it since both the compass and the target are in focus.

One of the big advantages of the Cammenga is supposedly that you can read a bearing without having to bring the compass down. That might be important in the military, but I'm just fine reading the dial on the plastic baseplate compasses.

Also, while sighting with the Cammenga I struggle to figure out what the thin sighting wire/thread is for. That sight slot is so close to my eye that it is completely blurred to me. Maybe its my old near-sighted eyes, but I asked my 13 year old son w/ no vision issues if he can see the thread and he says its blurry too.

My other beef with the Cammenga is that it has no declination adjustment. For some that's no big deal, but that's one of my major preferences for a compass. I simply dont' want to do math everytime I read/set the bearing.

I have older compasses I guess. The Suunto ones are by Suunto Oy, the Silva ones are from Finland too.

If they are not leaking oil and the card swings free they are all fine.
If the bubble is from a leak instead of just a vacuum formed by the oil shrinking in the cold they will likely rust inside.

I really like the Suunto KB that I have, but the Silva Ranger works well too.
I usually have the Silva Guide compass, model 426,(the same as the Suunto MCB) with me even though it is made like a disposable item.

I think I might still have an old aluminum Recta matchbox (I think the modern version is Suunto MB-6) compass around somewhere, but maybe it is lost.
It leaked on me and I think the needle rusted until you couldn't read it through the rusty oil.

I like the look of the Eclipse and the Cammenga but I really couldn't justify the cost when I have three compasses that work well for me.

Edit:
With the A-10 and similar pieces from Brunton you have a good reliable compass which works well on a map and the price is still reasonable.
You might not have quite as much accuracy taking bearings as with a sighting compass, but you are very likely to be close enough for any sport uses. The protractor card compasses were designed for orienteering instead of surveying.
It also makes a handy scraper to get the ice off your windshield after you have followed the compass back to your car.

Everything you list to love about the Eclipse I agree with. It really ought to be a great compass....but I am on my 4th capsule (last one replaced about 2 years ago) and will NEVER trust this compass as my only compass. A bubble can render it completely useless. Brunton assured me that they had fixed the bubble issue every time I got a new capsule....

I have just stopped taking it along anymore to save myself the trouble of returing it for a capsule. I go to Montana and find myself at 10,000' outside of Yellowstone....not once has the Eclipse worked at that altitude. I had earlier trouble at 4,000'. So nice as the compass is....just beware that I don't think it is suitable as an all around compass. For low elevation gains/losses I expect it will be fine...but I would always carry a decent needle type compass as backup.

The lensatic type is an OK compass in my view too, but lack of declination limits it to a novelety compass for me.

Finland Silva's are Suunto compasses (sometimes Recta), marketed by Johnson Camping....the US owner of the "Silva" trademark.

The thin wire is to line your target up correctly through the sight window. Depending on the compass, say a Lensatic, you cock the cover plate with the sight window so its locked into place roughy 45* over the dial. You bring the compass to your eye, use the wire to sight your target and then look down to determine azimuth.

Think of it as a front blade sight on a pistol.

I'd forgotten to mention ...

To make matters even more confusing, in 2006 Fiskars, who owns Gerber Legendary Blades, bought Silva of Sweden, and placed it under the Gerber wing.

So now Fiskars/Gerber owns Silva of Sweden/Brunton of U.S..

Sheesh.

All my compass work has been in the midwest, so that might explain the lack of bubbles. When I went out west to Yellowstone I had my 15TDCL with me (I said I was trying to carry it more).

BTW, about the same time my 8099 had the bubble I found that my 15TDCL had stopped pointing north. Never figured out why. Brunton replaced it with a new one rather than fix it.

An a slightly different tangent, one thing folks who buy compasses should keep in mind (back to the original post) is that, at least in my view, they can have two basic roles: (1) to give a fairly general sense of direction (which way is north? for me this is usually when orienting a map), and (2) to provide relatively accurate bearings (following a bearing, or more importantly when using triangulation to determine your location).

Most any half-decent compass will do for (1), but for (2) I much prefer a good sighting compass. I've never felt very accurate doing bearings with a plain baseplate compass.

Hi KenK,



I believe that Johnson Outdoors has Silva.

Gerber and Brunton have the same parent company-Fiskars.

Suunto is owned by Amer Sports.

Okay: here in Canada I can buy a Silva Ranger made in Sweden, under the Silva name.

If I buy a "Silva" compass in the US, where is that compass made?

Inquiring minds want to know. Me, I use a Suunto MC-2DL.

I would suggest that your EDC should be the one you are most familiar with and have the greatest confidence in. After all, if you get into a situation where you REALLY HAVE to use it, that will most likely be when what you have is your EDC, and it BETTER WORK RIGHT. Just my thoughts.

good thought EdD270. your of course correct.I am well known by friends to terribly abuse my gear through use. not b/c I am wasteful but I practice its ability. I replace (from use) almost every item in my EDC 1x per year, Some pieces like the fire/tender gear much more often.

Just trying to lighten my load in my EDC and maybe buy some new kit. I have a GI lensatic & an original Silva Ranger that are my gold standards and if I think i need that level of preparedness it goes on my body. But think a 'simple' baseplate compass would do well for daily carry in urb/suburb environment

+2 to the above two posts. A plain baseplate compass is just fine as a navigation aid if you don't need the precision fo a sighting compass. Though if that happens to be the case I wonder whether you even need a baseplate compass at all for urban EDC. A wrist/button compass would be just fine to get a quick bearing and in a lot more compact package.

Why does the lack of declination make it a novelty compass? Most marine compasses (sighting or fixed) do not have a declination adjustment, just variation, if that. You then either do the math, or plot using magnetic instead of true. I use a Suunto M2? when I am in the woods. Declination adjustment is nice, but an option. Basic map skills include changing from mag to true.

Bill

Fiskars, who owns Gerber, now owns the Swedish company named Silva, which in turn owned the U.S. company Brunton. They are all one big company now.

Check out http://www.fiskars.fi/business/index.html

Johnson Outdoors owns the U.S. registered trademark for "Silva". This trademark ownership does not impact labeling outside of the U.S.

I don't know who makes the U.S. "Silva" compasses. Some have said it is Suunto, but I've seen no proof of that.

I agree with TomL - that was my point with the two uses of a compass. The tiny button compasses or a simple wrist compass can take someone a loooong way so long as they have a good map, THOUGH I prefer to have a compass with a straight side to help orient the map. I see the map as bearing (no pun intended) 95+% of the navigation load. Heck, I even bring a Brunton 9020G compass (pockets real nice) to places like Disney World and Sea World so I can orient the map when I confused.

Regarding adjustable declination ... lack of it doesn't make the compass a "novelty", but I myself wouldn't buy one. I choose not to do that math when good compasses are available with adjustable declination (even at a low price).

I hate drawing true north lines on maps. Yuck! I was taught that way, but would rather orient the map to north and use an adjusted compass.

I just set/use all my gear (compass, GPS, and map) to "true north" and go.

Marine compasses do not use declination because charts are used with magnetic bearings.

I find a Lensatic compass to be a novelty compass not only because it does not offer declination, but its operating system is far less easy to use on a map than the Silva type systems.

As a field compass sighting it is fine, but map to field, field to map work is far easier with a baseplate compass.

Declination adjustment to me is a requirement as again it makes a baseplate compass a sure bet to use. No messing about with subtraction or addition of declination...no confusion, no mistakes.

About the only thing that can be stated for sure is that "Silva USA" compasses marketed by Johnson Outdoors are NOT made by Silva Sweden. Suunto/Recta are the likely source for most Silva USA branded compasses....only because they have county of origin as Finland. Johnson Outdoors can have anyone willing to make a compass brand it "Silva" as they own the trademark in the US.

A nice quick and easy....popping out of the subway, turned around at Disneyland, local woods, sort of compass is a small TruNord.

This one a pin-on version that makes for handy quick reference.



These can be ordered with your local declination already set. This makes them not great travel compasses, but they are definately quality items that have their use. They are not a bad choice for EDC, but not one I use as a primary compass.

Hi all,

I started using a Silva Ranger 15 compass 30 years ago and I have used it over hundreds of miles of bush travel. I currently have 4 of of these compasses but only one is functional. Three have large bubbles in them due to damage (cracks due to impacts), do you think it is worth sending them back to Silva for repair?

Who in Canada is Silva again, I am confused?

Mike

Yes!!! E-mail them first.

Silva/Brunton most likely - for sure if its 30 years old.

You might contact Brunton at support@brunton.com as a start. That's what I did.

Well, I got the answer to my question and that may help to unconfuse you, Mike.

Seems Silva in Canada is Johnson Outdoors. That is, Johnson does sell compasses here under the Silva brand, which they couldn't if Silva held the trademark. (But I don't know about 30 years ago.)

I have seen the Rangers marked "Finland" in the past (meaning Suunto, I guess), but I confirmed that they're currently made in Indonesia. Rumour has it they are not the same quality as the Finnish Rangers.

Johnson Outdoors 30 years ago sold REAL Swedish Silva's....

Their relationship with Silva Sweden went sour quite a while ago, but I am pretty sure much less than 30 years ago.

It really is a crazy mess...but I don't buy Silva branded compasses in the US....and now it looks like North America anymore because you really have no idea what you are getting.

Suunto/Recta are my prefered brands....


I really like the matchbox type compasses for compact fully-funtional instruments. These seem to be overlooked by many, but they are worth seeking out.

My old Recta...in the bottom right corner of this old image, goes with me loads of times. It is not quite as easy to use as a baseplate on a map, but otherwise most of the Silva system uses apply.



These can be found with a Global Needle and make for an excellent EDC type compass. The mirror on the bottom limits the usefullness of the mirror for other uses, but it a nice sighting option.

At least in the U.S. its pretty straight forward.

Look at http://www.brunton.com plastic baseplate and mirrored compasses. If it is green, its made by Brunton. If its an Eclipse (809x) its made by Brunton. The rest is made by Silva of Sweden.

Not sure if the Brunton-made compasses are made in the U.S. or some Asian country.

No clue about Canada.

Well thanks for the help fellows, I will look on the compasses to see where they were made (Finland or Sweden I would guess), then send off some inquiries via e-mail.

Schwert, my father did a lot of prospecting in Northern Ontario and used a match-box type compass as seen in the image you posted, I think it was a Silva (but I could be "off course here")?

I have recently been using a Suunto Compass (MC-1) in "Mils" instead of "Degrees", it is hard to change your brain to think in a different format.

Mike

Well I used some dividends and picked up a Suunto A-10. What the heck, I can always uses a new compass.

I had my Brunton 8096 Adv. Racing compass with me and boxed North next to several other models. The bubble in the 8096 did not affect anything.

The matchbox compass does have a few advantages. I almost bought one of those matchbox Recta models a couple of years ago but after some serious consideration and hands-on practice I've also noted a few problems.

First, the folding mirror is really fragile. I don't think it would stand up to any kind of abuse. Then the bezel is small. Sure thing, the Recta is very compact but a small bezel means you can't take such an accurate reading easily. Also, any compass with a baseplate is going to make life a lot easier when you with work with a map.

IME a matchbox compass is a good choice when compact size is really important. But for serious work nothing beats a sighting compass w/ baseplate. The best of both worlds.

Ken-
I stand corrected and a still little confused. I'm going to have a chat with the sales rep for Silva/Johnson Outdoors for additional info.

BTW, Most, but not all, of the Silvas on our shelf are manufactured in Indonesia according to the package.

Thanks.

Up until about 30 years ago there was a surveyor in my area who did more than his share of surveys. Funny thing about him though is that his transit didn't have cross-hairs. He was kind of proud of this and he would let anyone who was interested look though his transit while he was in the field on a survey. (As a child, I was one of those persons.) He'd go out to survey a tract with a survey crew and equipment, but then would just ask the landowner where he wanted the lines and corners to be. He then placed his survey monuments (pipes) after having the landowner show him where the landowner wanted them. The rest of any of his on-site work was only for show. His final plats were gorgeous, but his bearings and distances and acreages shown on his plats had nothing in common with reality or the legal description at the courthouse. His middle name came to be "where-do-you-want-the-line". He truly messed up goodly portions of a number of parishes. Many of his surveys have been contested over the years, and the cost of fixing problems caused by his work has been enourmous and on-going.

I have a similarly sized group of compasses. I've been told not to ever store them close by each other because over time, their interaction will cause them to become less accurate (prematurely). For this reason, storage has become a problem. It there any "insullation" that I could use so that I could keep them together in a small area?

thanks for all the help and responses. Not concerned about my compass anymore and I think I will pick up a second compass that allows me to set the declination.

In that case, may I suggest a Marble's or similar small compass, either plain or pin-on, for urban use where navigation is not a problem but simple direction finding is desired. These are about 1 1/4" diam.x1/2" or so. Easy to carry, and they do show North-South, etc., usually graduated in 5 deg. imcrements.

How did you get Brunton to replace the capsule? I have an 8099 that always develops a bubble when I go up in elevation on hiking trails.

I have emailed Brunton twice about the issue, and been totally ignored both times.

Every time I emailed them they got right back to me about the replacement. I gave up on carrying this compass a few years ago though...so they may be less responsive to these requests now, as I can imagine every owner will eventually be asking for a replacement.

I was always impressed by their service on my compasses, but completely baffled why they never seemed to fix the issue.

As I have said above I believe these are super neat compasses with a fatal engineering flaw. They work as nice doorstops though.

I would look up their phone number and give them a call.

I would watch those Marble's compasses carefully. I have two of their dry brass versions that point to random directions.

For a small one like these I would go for a TruNord.

Same here. Actually I contacted support@brunton.com last week about a non-bubble-related issue (I have lots of compasses and this thread made me think about getting it fixed finally), and I got a response within maybe two days. I just have to pay for the shipping there.

Make sure you give them the nature of the problem, your name, address, and a phone number. They need the address to give you a return authorization number.

BRUNTON is now owned by SILVA AG, i.e. the real SILVA Company as any compass sold legally in the US or Canada under the Trade name Silva in not produced by Silva, but bought in batch lots by the owners of the trade name who DO NOT PRODUCE compasses unlike SILVA, BRUNTON, and SUUNTO.

Yup, that was mentioned in the first half of this thread.

On top of that, Silva & Brunton recently were purchased by Fiskars/Gerber.

I'm not sure whether that is a good thing or not.

Food for though; I've had an 8099 for 10 years or so now. I live at 7,000 feet and regularly make my way up around the 11,000 foot mark. This compass has yet to let me down on any occasion, be it -20°F or 90°F and at any elevation.

edit: I guess I just don't worry too much about bubbles so long as it points the way it should point....