Radio

Posted by: roberttheiii

Radio - 03/16/09 08:51 PM

Hi all,

I searched the forums and could not find a definitive answer. Can anyone recommend some radios or radio bands best for an emergency? I'm a boater, so a radio that covered VHF and was waterproof would be nice. I noticed there are several radios that cover VHF, FRS, and receive several other bands. In an emergency would FRS be of any use? If I'm on land I technically shouldn't use the VHF, but if life or limb were at stake I think I'd risk it.

Thoughts are appreciated. Would I be better off getting something HAMish (I know NOTHING about HAM radio, feel free to briefly inform me).

Thanks in advance!

R
Posted by: rescueguru

Re: Radio - 03/16/09 11:23 PM

First, where are you located, metro or suburban/rural area? That will be a big factor in the amount of amateur radio operators and repeaters available. Additionally, is any one listening? There are a large number of amateur repeaters operational but the frequencies just aren't monitored as they once were prior to cellular telephone.
Secondly, amateur radio requires a license to operate and unlike FRS/GMRS it requires the owner to pass a knowledge exam, not just pay a fee. However, it's worth it if you have an interest in communications, either terrestrial or satellite. There is a myriad of interesting projects and activities available to licensed amateurs including Amateur Radio Emergency Services, SkyWarn, etc. Ham radio may be the only thing working after a major natural disaster because Hams pride themselves on being ready to assist in those events. Most have dedicated portable equipment and "homebrew" antennas that are rapidly deployable to the scene, shelters, and emergency operations centers. The folks that provide these services are highly skilled and properly trained to get the job done.
Thirdly, WELCOME to ETS! Don't be a stranger as a lot of good information is passed here also.
Posted by: Kris

Re: Radio - 03/16/09 11:27 PM

Standard Horizon makes some half decent radios for the marine environment. Here's one that has some additional features (noaa, am/fm, etc).

http://www.standardhorizon.com/indexVS.c...mp;isArchived=0

Take a look at their site, some good stuff there!
Posted by: roberttheiii

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 12:21 AM

Awesome, I knew there would be a lot of great info here. I'm buying a PLB so if I'm ever in immediate danger I figure I can use that. I'm thinking of the radio more for disaster situations. I live relatively close to the shore in Connecticut (not the snooty NY part :P ), so I figure a hurricane is eventually going to happen here. I'd use a VHF on a regular basis so it would be more likely to be charged in case of an emergency, but ham sounds promising. I did see the Standard Horizon radios that do VHF and FRS. I don't mind a simple FCC license, but I'm hesitant to commit to HAM as it sounds fairly pricey and likely a major time commitment. I'm more interested in being "equipped" to supplement my other hobbies (Sailing, hunting, fishing, skiing, kayaking) rather then taking on new hopes for it.

Satellite was mentioned, can you communicate via satellite on a hand held radio or are you referring to a satellite phone. I'm obviously a total newb at this.

Thanks for all the great info!
Posted by: JohnE

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 02:24 AM

It all depends...

Like most things, you can buy all kinds of radio equipment but if there's no one listening, what good is it?

Marine band radios are great, on or near a boat. You won't be raising many people using one on dry land nor is it legal to do so unless in an actual emergency.

As for GMRS and FRS and MURS, same thing, who's going to be listening to you and what do you want to communicate to them? You also have some pretty severe transmitting issues with GMRS and FRS radios in that you're limited in wattage.

CB's are ok for what they are, but again, who's listening and what good will it do for you in an emergency?

The only viable alternative is Ham radio, with a pretty small investment you can get up and running on the 2 meter, 220 and 440 bands and you'll be able to actually make contact with people. A small handheld radio with a simple antenna mounted on the roof will give you the means to at least hit a repeater and theoretically get a message out. You might also be surprised at how many people are Ham operators out there. In addition, unlike any of the other accessible radio formats available to you, there are people in Ham radio who actively monitor and help out during emergencies. Do a Google search for a local ARES group to learn more. The test for an entry level technician's license is pretty easy to pass, there are numerous online resources that can help you. While it's true that you can spend thousands of dollars for Ham equipment, there's no reason to do so if you're only going to be using it in your stated limited fashion. I've got a mobile radio in my car and a handheld and together, including antennaes I've spent less than $1000.00 and I am an active Ham operator. You could get set up for far less.

And yes, it is possible to transmit using satellites and an amateur radio. It's even possible to do so with a handheld radio and beam antenna, it's not something that your likely to do on a whim but it's very much possible.

John E
Posted by: rescueguru

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 03:07 AM

Actually "Ham" equipment is relatively inexpensive compared to commercial radio, ie: public safety or business radio. An operator can purchase the newest and greatest multi-band handheld with all the "bells & whistles" for less $350.00. There are probably EchoLink stations and the new D-Star repeaters in your area. As for the Satellite comms, I was refering to the ability of Hams to access amateur radio capable satellites stations and with the same equipment and the right schedule, communicate with the International Space Station.
In order to get my Technician ticket, I attended eight, 3 hour classes for the basics, however I tested and passed after only 3 classes. There are practice tests online @ www.QRZ.com for free. When you can pass the practice tests 9 of 10 trys, you can easily obtain your ticket. From that point the world is wide open within the spectrum of your license. Try it and have fun. smile
Posted by: rescueguru

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 03:21 AM

I just reread your last post and realized that you are indeed a sportsman and an outdoorsman. The ham radio compliments all of these as it may be the only viable communications link from some remote areas.
I travel and teach technical rope rescue in some very remote parts of the NC/SC mountains and these places have never seen a cellular phone signal. The only thing other than the hard line telephone that gets out of those places is, you guessed it, Ham radio.
If you have an oppurtunity, check with the local Red Cross, the usually maintain an up to date list of Hams who staff there operational shelters in disasters and those guys train regularly. They are always more than willing to help a new guy.
Posted by: KG2V

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By: rescueguru
Actually "Ham" equipment is relatively inexpensive compared to commercial radio, ie: public safety or business radio. ...snip..


Sometimes wink

I'd hate to tell you how many 2m and 70cm rigs I have (Last I counted, it was close to 20), and almost all of them are Commercial Business/Public Safety radios, purchased used. I spent the money on the gear to be able to program them, and they are wonderful radios (a LOT less intermod tham most ham rigs, but you give up frequency flexibility). Some of the radios I've bought have been under $20. Heck, some of the radios that were $400 a year ago are down around $100 now

One REALLY nice radio out there - the M7100 series by MA-com (or whatever they call themselves this week). What I really like is it did away with "splits" and does 136-174Mhz on ONE radio, plus it's type approved for both Ham (well, you don't NEED type aproval there), as well as Marine and GMRS if programmed correctly. I also have all the National Westher Service Frequencies programmed in as receive only frequencies.

Quite nice. I have one bank that has my favorite 2m repeates, and has the Marine distress and calling frequencies in it. That is my "scanner" bank. If I'm just listening, I'll turn that on to scan the bank
Posted by: Tom_L

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 07:09 AM

Quote:
In order to get my Technician ticket, I attended eight, 3 hour classes for the basics, however I tested and passed after only 3 classes. There are practice tests online @ www.QRZ.com for free. When you can pass the practice tests 9 of 10 trys, you can easily obtain your ticket. From that point the world is wide open within the spectrum of your license. Try it and have fun. smile


Thanks, that was interesting. I used to be into electronics a little bit in high school but haven't done any projects in a long time. I've never touched a single book on Ham radio. But I went to take a look at the technician's test you linked to just for the heck of it and scored 75%. I was under the impression that getting the license was tougher. But looks like it's a lot more accessible than I thought. Now I'm seriously thinking about getting the Technician ticket.
Posted by: JohnE

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 04:20 PM

The test process for all of the Ham licenses are easier now, have been for a few years now. Some Hams don't like that as they think that it will dilute the pool of knowledge but it's simply the way of things. If you got 75% without studying, you can easily get your license by simply taking some more sample tests. I'm guessing that you missed the questions pertaining to the FCC and such, those are pretty easy to learn. If you understand Ohms law, the rest is easy.

One thing I've found since getting my license last year, there a lot of Hams who are more into the electronics and the theory of radio then they are into actually communicating with radios. In some cases it rises to the point of ridiculousness.

I get it as some of my other hobbies, photography and woodworking, are also filled with people more into the equipment and the process than they are in the final product.

The nice thing about Ham radio is that you really don't have to spend a ton of time or money or effort to get started, if you want to pursue it more, there are a lot of ways to do so that will involve a lot of time, money and effort. For now, I'm happy with my setup and with my Technicians license but I'm going to get my General later this year and will probably end up with some sort of HF radio at some point too.

JohnE
Posted by: philip

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 05:08 PM

You haven't said what you plan on doing with the radio. Who do you plan on communicating with? Do you need more than one radio? Without knowing what you want to radio for, it's difficult to do more than guess on what radio service might work best for you.

My wife and I are ham radio operators, and we also use GMRS, FRS, and MURS radios. Each has its place. We don't have a boat, so we don't use Marine FM. If you own a boat, I'd suggest equipping it with a Marine radio, in addition to whatever else you may buy.

All radios are of some use in an emergency, but it depends. FRS and GMRS/FRS radios are toys with very limited range. However, Louise and I still use them when they fit our needs. We have 5W GMRS radios we bought when they still sold GMRS-only radios (and we got our GMRS license). They have decent, removable rubber duck antennas, and we get decent range from them. We use them often in big box stores when we go our separate ways to browse and shop. The range goes from a few blocks to a few miles, depending on terrain.

If you aren't interested in getting your ham license, don't bother getting a ham radio. An FCC license is required, you get a callsign, and hams are very protective of the privilege of operating, so if you use amateur radio without a license you likely will be turned in (and properly so).

Amateur radio, though, is the most useful of the various services we use. There are repeaters all over the area that extend the range of our handhelds to hundreds of square miles. When you have your hurricane, you'll be able to communicate with other hams who are outside the affected area to report your location, damage, injuries, etc.

The problem is that you really need to use your radios to be comfortable with them, to know how to use them in emergencies, and to be able to give reliable, understandable information to those trying to provide help. Louise and I are in an emergency communication club and have training on operating during emergencies. We also have CERT training, and we participate in CERT exercises using amateur radio. We volunteer to provide communications in various bikeathons, walkathons, and such for charities to raise funds, which provides training for all us hams as well as doing good for the community.

Conversely, whether you're licensed or not, if you get a ham radio and don't know what you're doing, you'll screw up the controlled communications that are providing rescue assistance.

If you get a marine radio, please learn how to use it, and do use it when you're on your boat. Knowledge is the key to effective communication, and you need to know what you're doing.
Posted by: unimogbert

Re: Radio - 03/17/09 07:57 PM

These threads have popped up occasionally and this is THE question that goes to the heart of giving a good answer.

The questioner often doesn't know enough about radios to understand the answers.
"good in an emergency" is too vague.
Radio is a complex topic.


If I wanted a radio that would really, really, really right-bloody-now get me some "help" I'd want a radio that can transmit on police frequencies.

But I might not survive the being discovered part of the exercise :-)
(if you thought hams were protective of their frequencies.... you oughta consider what the police would do when they found you talking to them!)

I've been a ham for better than 3 decades but I don't have enough info to address the OP's question.



Originally Posted By: philip
You haven't said what you plan on doing with the radio. Who do you plan on communicating with? Do you need more than one radio? Without knowing what you want to radio for, it's difficult to do more than guess on what radio service might work best for you.

Posted by: roberttheiii

Re: Radio - 03/18/09 12:55 PM

I think the statement that I don't know enough about radio to really understand the answers is a fair one. For example, I have no idea what the meter ranges are. Does this actually refer to antenna size or is it an alternate description of frequency?

It sounds like I should get certified in HAM if only to learn a bit about the topics and determine how much I want to invest in equipment and time after I know a bit more. Any one think it is a bad idea to take the test/learn about it?

I'm very interested in a hand held (I think one was mentioned) that can LEGALLY transmit on both marine and HAM bands. FRS would be convenient skiing, hunting, etc, to communicate with party members, but a handheld waterproof vhf/ham would be great for both marine use, possibly hobbie use, and emergencies.

Thanks again for all the help!

R
Posted by: unimogbert

Re: Radio - 03/18/09 02:26 PM

Meters--- refers to wavelength. Inversely related to frequency. The longer the wavelength the lower the frequency. Talking about the x meter band is kind of a mixup of the old ways of allocating frequencies to different radio services.
Mostly refers to ham radio allocations and shortwave broadcast allocations.


Getting a ham license is a good thing from the standpoint of knowlege always being good. It might become an addiction. Or it might not. But you'd know more about the radio world. (For the record- learning Morse code is no longer required for any class of ham license. If you encounter material saying that it is required you are looking at material several years old.)

Ham and VHF marine radio in the same package? I'm pretty sure that would be a NO.
Receive marine - yes. Transmit - no. (not w/o making illegal modifications)

Arrl.org has lots of startup info for new hams. (American Radio Relay League)

Have fun!


Originally Posted By: roberttheiii
I think the statement that I don't know enough about radio to really understand the answers is a fair one. For example, I have no idea what the meter ranges are. Does this actually refer to antenna size or is it an alternate description of frequency?

It sounds like I should get certified in HAM if only to learn a bit about the topics and determine how much I want to invest in equipment and time after I know a bit more. Any one think it is a bad idea to take the test/learn about it?

I'm very interested in a hand held (I think one was mentioned) that can LEGALLY transmit on both marine and HAM bands. FRS would be convenient skiing, hunting, etc, to communicate with party members, but a handheld waterproof vhf/ham would be great for both marine use, possibly hobbie use, and emergencies.

Thanks again for all the help!

R
Posted by: roberttheiii

Re: Radio - 03/18/09 03:46 PM

Thanks. A little wiki searching gave me a reasonable understanding of the meter ranges as well.

I think I'll take the basic HAM test(s), then decide. I really wish I could find a HAM radio that trasmitted legally on marine VHF, was handheld and waterproof. The Yeausa/Standar Horizon lines flirt with it, and if modified (illegally) meet my critea, but I'm not sure I really want to break the law for convienience.

The majority (but not all) of boats I go out on have a marine VHF built in, but a handheld would be a nice backup for either a primary radio failure (pretty likely) or uhhh...more severe problems (flipped, sunk, lost, etc). I also duck hunt which involves relativly small aluminum boats with no built in VHF. Carrying a VHF on them would be of medium use though because a handheld may not make it to a coast guard station for TX and there are a lot fewer boats out listening in December. So there I rely on a cell and in the future a PLB.

I guess I'm not settled on what to do but I'm leaning towards a handheld HAM or marine VHF. Both would be nice, but perhaps a bit too costly.

We shall see.

Thanks again.
Posted by: KG2V

Re: Radio - 03/18/09 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: roberttheiii
...snip...
I'm very interested in a hand held (I think one was mentioned) that can LEGALLY transmit on both marine and HAM bands. ...snip...

R


GE MPA or MRK will do it - both are type accepted as Marine radios, and cover the Ham band. The ONLY down side is they are NOT frequency flexible - in other words, you can ONLY go on the frequencies you pre-program. Usually NOT a problem, as I have every major repeater in my area, plus all the common simplex frequencies programmed too. One of my MRKs actually was USCG surplus
Posted by: roberttheiii

Re: Radio - 03/19/09 02:00 AM

Sounds good, I'll take a look. Thanks.
Posted by: unimogbert

Re: Radio - 03/19/09 02:23 PM

This is a very cool solution to the problem.

And it demonstrates how hams tinkering with radios is a good thing.

Looking in the ham radio catalog or the boat catalog would not have yielded this
solution.

Will take a cooperative radio shop to program it?


Originally Posted By: KG2V_was_kc2ixe

GE MPA or MRK will do it - both are type accepted as Marine radios, and cover the Ham band. The ONLY down side is they are NOT frequency flexible - in other words, you can ONLY go on the frequencies you pre-program. Usually NOT a problem, as I have every major repeater in my area, plus all the common simplex frequencies programmed too. One of my MRKs actually was USCG surplus
Posted by: KG2V

Re: Radio - 03/19/09 02:39 PM

There are a few different ways.
1)Find your local Ma/com shop (may cost $$$)
2)Find a ham who can do it - plus there are often folks on eBay who advertise programming
3)Look for the "conventional" DOS programmer software (which is out there with GE/Ma-com permission (or by the conventional windows software, not too expensive - the software that supports trunking is NOT cheap), and buy either a "RIB" (Radio Inferface box) and cable from Price Industries, or get a "ribless cable", which makes sense if you are not going to re-flash the radio, or not doing multiple types of radios. I use a RIB because I own about 6 different kinds of GE radios that use the same RIB
Posted by: Be_Prepared

Re: Radio - 03/20/09 02:52 PM

Something I saw in a bulletin from the ARRL might be interesting to folks following this discussion about emergency comms, I've extracted the relevant text:

Special Bulletin 5 ARLX005
From ARRL Headquarters
Newington CT March 20, 2009
To all radio amateurs

SB SPCL ARL ARLX005
ARLX005 Global Simulated Emergency Test Scheduled for April

The HQ Stations of all IARU Member-Societies, as well as the stations of Emergency Communications Groups, have been invited by IARU Region 1 to participate in the 2009 Global Simulated Emergency Test (GlobalSET), on Saturday, April 18, 2009 from 1100-1500 UTC.
The GlobalSET will take place on and near the emergency Center of Activity (CoA) frequencies on 80, 40, 20, 17 and 15 meters, +/- QRM.
Stations in the United States intending to participate need to register through their IARU International Emergency Communications Coordinator. For the United States, registrations should be e-mailed to ARRL Emergency Preparedness and Response Manager Dennis Dura, K2DCD at, k2dcd@arrl.org.

Dura confirmed that W1AW will participate in the GlobalSET.

According to IARU Region 1 Emergency Communications Coordinator Greg Mossop, G0DUB, the GlobalSET is not a contest, but an emergency communications exercise to develop skills needed to provide an international emergency network.

Mossop said that the GlobalSET has four objectives:

To increase the common interest in emergency communications.

To test how usable the CoA frequencies are across ITU regions.

To create practices for international emergency communications.

To practice the relaying of messages using all modes: Voice (SSB), Data or CW.

"The exercise will build on earlier GlobalSET exercises and will focus on generating and relaying messages in a common format across country borders, rather than the information gathering capabilities that we've done in the past," Mossop said. "We will pass messages in a format that we may have to use for the agencies we may serve. The message exchange will take longer than in previous exercises, and stations will have to be patient to transmit their messages across country and language boundaries."

Each participating station is to send messages to their Regional HQ station using the IARU International Emergency Operating Procedure, using IARU message forms. Stations should relay the messages they receive to their Regional HQ station; the Region 2 station is TG0AA in Guatemala. To comply with license regulations, all messages should be addressed to Greg Mossop, G0DUB, and should come from a licensed radio amateur. Messages should contain fewer than 25 words and should not include anything that would be considered as a "real emergency" message by a listener. Mossop suggests constructing messages that include weather conditions, the number of operators at the station or even an interesting fact about the station. "There is no limit on the number of messages to be sent," he said, "but each one must have a unique message number." Regional HQ stations will not be sending messages, only receiving them.

Mossop recommends that in order to create "a more realistic situation, please limit your transmitting power during the exercise to 100 W. We are especially interested in stations operating mobile/portable and/or on emergency power."

Usually held in May, the 2009 GlobalSET was moved to April to tie into World Amateur Radio Day. The theme of the 2009 World Amateur Radio Day is Amateur Radio: Your Resource in Disaster and Emergency Communication. "This is an ideal opportunity to showcase the work of emergency communications groups around the world," Mossop said.

For more information on the 2009 GlobalSET, including a list of CoA frequencies for Regions 1, 2 and 3, please see the GlobalSET announcement at, http://www2.arrl.org/news/files/2009GlobalSET.pdf.
Posted by: roberttheiii

Re: Radio - 03/21/09 11:12 AM

Very interesting. Thanks.
Posted by: rdwilson

Re: Radio - 03/27/09 09:47 PM

Another hand held radio worthy of consideration is the Motorola JT-1000. It is FCC "type accepted" so it can be used outside of the normal ham bands with the proper licensing of course.

It does not have the frequency agility drawback that some other commercial radios have because it is Front Panel Programmable (FPP). As supplied form the factory, it requires a programming "dongle" (a diode in a rather large plug adapter). The so called "FCC" or "Government" radios do not require this dongle but still require a password to program. The conversion is very simple, takes all of ten minutes and you can choose the password (by default it is "JT1000").

This radio is no longer being made by Motorola so you would need to find a used one. I bought mine from a firefighter who's department was moving to a different radio system. It was a little banged up but a $13 investment in a new case and it looks and performs like new. As i recall, I paid around $225 for the VHF model.

Here's a link to some reviews:
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1610