Interesting post on Be Prepared To Survive

I just read an interesting article on Be Prepared To Survive about using aluminum foil as an improvised water container.

http://www.bepreparedtosurvive.com/Don't%20Trust%20Aluminum%20Foil.htm

They even call out the PSP:



Has anyone experienced/tried this?

I have tried several versions of aluminum foil including the heavy and industrial versions and they all leaked, so I ousted them from the kit. I just use my Guyot Designs Stainless Steel Bottle and it works great. The aluminum foil when folded has small pin holes and micro cracks to where it leaks all the time. Good for a pan for cooking on but not for water.

Flat aluminium foil is pretty useless for constructing a cup for boiling water but can be done if the aluminium foil is formed into a cone shape wrapped a few times and the last edge sealed with some duct tape. The tip of the cone needs to be folded over as well and secured with duct tape. You then have to arrange the heat source is applied to the opposite side of the aluminium cone so that it doesn't burn the duct tape. Overall the size of the formed cup ends up being really small, it is difficult to fabricate even in good conditions and always has the chance of everything going horribly wrong. Not really recommended.

Even folded up premade Aluminium pie and pudding dish are tricky to use but are certainly a major improvment over flat alumiumium foil improvised folded cup.

http://www.buyrite.co.uk/AluminiumFoilContainers_001.htm

I haven't used the PSK foil, but I've tried foil right out of the box. Both regular and heavy duty Reynolds. The regular did start leaking faster than the heavy-duty, but in the end, they both didn't get to boiling.

In all fairness though, it may have been cuz I was setting them on the gas range, like any other pot. I haven't tried a campfire with the cup sitting on a rock or something that would better distribute the weight.

I was curious so I tried.
I took some heavy duty foil (Alcan brand) and smoothed it into shape over the bottom of a pot.
Then I filled it with water.
Then I waited.

No leaks.

So Then I put it on a hot stove element (electric)and the water boiled in about 2 minutes.

No leaks.

___-
What I don't like is how flimsy it is because now I have to move a piece of tinfoil with boiling hot water in it or leave it sitting on the stove till I come back.

So yeah, it worked but it would be a desperation maneuver in the wild just because the foil might not be strong enough to hold the pot shape when full of water.
-----
An hour after boiling, still no leaks.

Emptied it out, filled it and boiled it again.

Still no leaks.

Maybe your aluminum is bad.

If you had a pot to shape it over, why use the foil?

I think the problem comes in with the folding. I tested this by folding a piece of heavy-duty foil, 18 in square, the same as I would in my PSK, then unfolding it and shaping it into a water container. I had a leak. Presumably this was caused by the folds.

But I still keep foil in my PSK because you can use it for cooking or as a reflector for your fire, and you can patch it with duct tape where it leaks and use it to hold water. And if you heat the water by dropping hot rocks in the container, I bet you could boil water with the duct tape patches in place.

I've not tried, but I'd like to try some adaptation of scafool's method. If I had the pot like he had, then I think I'd use it to boil water, but his experiment was a great idea.

If you had anything like a terra cotta pot, a ceramic flower pot, a few coat hangers for a frame (maybe with some wire) or whatever that would not hold water, it still might provide enough support for the foil to make it so the two together could have enough support and hold water so that it would boil.

No way I am going to try this over the next few weeks, because we are finishing the house and moving.

Didn't the Mounty's get issued a paper bag to boil water in?

I thought that was what the hat was for

Once you form you aluminum foil cup, you are supposed to place it NEAR the fire, not in direct contact. It is not the best method of boiling water, but if you can get a pot into the PSP container, or your altoids tin, knock your self out.

Izzy, you might be onto something there.
Being in a pack or pocket before being used is not likely to be good for the foil.

However MDinana says his aluminum leaked right out of the box, so it might be a problem with the aluminum too.
That seems to be what the Be Prepared site was saying as well.

So glad I was able to bring some interesting experimentation thoughts to the forum...

Typically I carry a metal cup/titanium cookset with me, but this type of information is interesting to know if I had to rely purely on the contents of a psp.

Makes me ponder folding up one of the aluminum baking pans to fit into my survival kit. I already carry water treatment with me, but that will only take you so far.

I don't know if it's an aluminum problem, or a edge problem. I didn't round my cup out, just kind of wrapped it around my fist, so there were creases and such. It actually didn't leak too badly until I moved it, but like I said, I had it over a gas range. Those 5-prong rests for the pans probably aren't the best surface for the foil.

The folding seems to be the main problem (in addition to even HD foil being very thin), and the corners are the worst. Wearing a tiny pinhole at a corner fold compromises the entire unit.

"If you had a pot to shape it over, why use the foil?"

The pot was just a handy, easily-available shape. He could have wrapped it around a hat, a rock or a volleyball to get the basic shape.

I don't usually carry foil, but if I did, I would roll it around a straw or lightstick or something.

Sue

I was joking.

You could always shape it over your head -- this would be particularly effective if you were a pothead.

Shaped thus, it would also double as a convenient and useful hat. That's a good argument for carrying two pieces, so you can boil water without risking alien brain scans.

Those were also jokes. I apologize for their poor quality. I couldn't fit a real joke in my Altoids tin.

Is it Friday yet?

It got a smile out of me Andrew.

There's a lot to be said for using as your PSK container something that can be used to hold boiling water. The problem is size, of course; anything big enough to hold a decent amount of water is getting too big for a pocket.

I have a presentation box for a Baileys miniature which is a reasonable compromise. I've also tried building kits into tin mugs, which will go in a coat pocket.

anyone know a source of Extra heavy duty foil..not just the heavy duty but the Extra???

I am fond of the stuff available from a commercial kitchen. Unless you want a huge roll, I suggest making friends with the lunch lady at a local school. Ask her for some. (Aluminum foil that is.)

That is where I got mine. Half of a roll at the end of the semester. Haven't tried boiling water yet, I'll give it a shot. What I will say is taht the little foil pans have had holes when I've tried folding them.

I always have a Nalgene or Gouyet bottle with me, and a space saver cup, so...

If you want to store and tote a piece of foil without damaging it so much, take a cue from the way it is packaged for sale. Roll a sheet on a solid spool carefully and tightly, then sheath it in solid container, like a zipfizz powdered drink plastic flip open container. It will take a heckuva lot more abuse than a folded up sheet flopping around in a kit.

The Ritter PSP uses Kirkland Heavy Duty foil based on the video showing how they pack the kit. I saw the same article regarding leaks and immediately went to get some of our stash of Kirkland HD foil. No matter how I formed it by folding, rolling, etc. it leaked. If I formed it over my fist it didn't. Relying on foil as a water container might be a real problem. However, there's enough room in the PSP to add an oven bag or condom so I think of the foil more for signaling, fire windbreak, base to make a fire, cooking, etc. not so much as a water container.

If you read Doug's personal kit list, He's been packing and suggesting folded aluminum cooking pans too.
Look over that website and you will see a nice article on friend Oak Norton and SPARKLITE ( you can't boil it if you can't light it!)
Also notice under the suggested oven containers the folding cooker! These were a popular item made, I believe in Israel. Some legal issue stopped importation for many years.
Well, they seem to be back, I've found a retailer and am getting one to test..

I just about choked on my coffee. Thanks!

This was just one of those things that I didn't think about... I honestly thought that it would be fairly easy to construct a cooking pan out of the foil. Yet another reason to practice "backyard survival"...

You're welcome, glad I could help.

Roof flashing

I managed to squeeze in 2 gerber milk bags, 6 micropure tabs, photon light, mini bick, 6 REI matches w/striker wrapped in foil and a small razor knife in the psp. Still have a little room with judicious packing.

Bill

Plural of Mountie is Mounties.

Whenever people speak of using aluminum foil to boil water I always think of those pleated JiffyPop pans. I am visualizing such a pan with a handle that folds over the top of the pan, and you can fill the (flat) pan with cooking stuff and food.

Sue

I have five different packs of varying size as well as the Altoid tin kit. I keep the two littlest packs in the trunk of my sports car, and the two next largest one each in my truck and camping van. The largest day pack is in my home along with the always carried Altoid PSK. In all of these kits except the Altoids PSK, I have a cup or pot along with one type of water carrier or another. Even my smallest kit which is made from a 4x6x3 Bagmaster holster pouch has a Sierra cup strapped to the outside.

Aluminum foil should not be considered a reliable water container but like I said in my earlier post it's plenty useful for other things.

I'm not sure those aluminum baking pans are such a good idea either as a primary pot in a small kit. I think the Sierra cup and similar small metal cups or pots can be carried easily either inside or outside the kit or on your water bottle.

If all I had in a survival situation was my Altoid PSK, I'd hate to have to rely on that container as a water boiling pot (what does it hold, 2-3 ounces?). I'd hope to find something I could make a bowl from and drop hot rocks into it to boil instead.

Edited to add photo of the Bagmaster based kit:

http://www.fenderforum.com/userphotos/photo.php?id=61668

Won't take the image but will go to the photo.

Wikipedia indicates that "Aluminium foils thicker than 0.025 mm (0.001 in) are impermeable to oxygen and water. Foils thinner than this become slightly permeable due to minute pinholes caused by the production process." I think most heavy duty is 0.020mm or less. It may be that years ago every day aluminum foil was either thicker or the manufacturers took the time and energy (extra steps) to get more impurities out during the manufacturing process. It would be interesting to know if aluminum foil became more permeable contemporaneously with the implimentation of the continuous casting manufacturing method.

Has anyone tested Metro Extra Heavy Duty Aluminum Foil for leaks?

[quote=GradyT34]Wikipedia indicates that "Aluminium foils thicker than 0.025 mm (0.001 in) are impermeable to oxygen and water. Foils thinner than this become slightly permeable due to minute pinholes caused by the production process." I think most heavy duty is 0.020mm or less. It may be that years ago every day aluminum foil was either thicker or the manufacturers took the time and energy (extra steps) to get more impurities out during the manufacturing process. It would be interesting to know if aluminum foil became more permeable contemporaneously with the implimentation of the continuous casting manufacturing method.
[quote]

Interesting factoid... not something one thinks about in a normal day...

don't know about heating aluminum foil, but when I was a kid in early 70's I was out hiking and forgot my canteen. Found a spring out of a bluff and made a cup out of the foil I carried back then and it held water for me to drink. -- back when I didn't worry about pollution/organisms in water.

I got it to work. I folded the foil in half twice, four layers. Then I folded up the four sides and rolled the corners to make a box. It held water. I then tried it on my home stove. The heat was too intense and burned two layers but did boil the water. It held water but was destructive. I think it will hold hold up better with heat from a campfire.

In my younger days we used to boil water in paper and styrofoam cups in camp fires.It was a fun trick to show city kids.The cups would burn or melt down to the level of the water in it.We would then burn an empty beer can like it was paper in the coals.I'm not sure of the physics involved but it worked.I think that in Craig's situation the aluminum foil burned because the water in the container couldn't cool the outer layers of foil.

I’ve not field tested it yet, but “Super Strength Reynolds Wrap” aluminum foil appears to be the only aluminum foil that's usualy available that is thick enough to be impermeable to water and oxygen. Although its on backorder until next week at Alcoa’s (Reynolds) store/website ( MyBrands.com ), its usually available there at retail in the 18" x 25' rolls (it is expensive). I thought it might also be thick enough so that a reasonable amount of folding, wrinkles, wear & tear (assuming daily carry) would not create pinholes.

From Wikipedia: “Aluminum foils thicker than 0.025 mm (0.001 in) are impermeable to oxygen and water. Foils thinner than this become slightly permeable due to minute pinholes caused by the production process.”

Below are examples of aluminum foil gauges:

Inches Microns
Standard (generic) 14.000
Standard (extra thick - generic) 16.000
Boardwalk - extra standard 16.000
Standard Reynolds Wrap* .00064 16.256
Standard (generic) Heavy Duty 20.000
Boardwalk - heavy duty 20.000
Heavy Strength Reynolds Wrap* .0009 23.622
Standard (generic) Extra Hvy. Duty 24.000
Super Strength Reynolds Wrap* .00137 34.798
35 gauge aluminum pie pan .01000

***The standard tolerance for Reynolds Wrap aluminum foil is: +/- 10%.

Micron X .00003937 = inches
Millimeters X .03937 = inches
a mil is a unit of length equal to 0.001 inch
micron is one millionth of a meter, or equivalently one thousandth of a millimeter

I use the top foil piece that comes from the family size Stoufer's lasagna meals you can find in the frozen food section. The entire container is foil, but the top is especially thick. The meals cost around $10 but we easily get two meals out of each, plus the free foil. Just my two cents, but it works fine for me.

You'd need a perfectly flat fire to boil using an altoids tin and then be lucky to pick it up without spilling it.

Something the shape of a spectacle case but opening on the end would be easy to carry and the right shape to boil water in.
Anyone know of any containers that shape
S

I suppose an origami cup made out of foil matches that description. And its reusable, and can be used to boil water. Not sure how big you would have to make it to hold a good amount of water.

Aluminum foil comes on a ROLL for a reason. Now you know what that reason is.

If you insist on folding it, it will only be good as a dry goods container or a hat.

If you want to take it with you to use for water, you'll have to keep it on something like a straw or a dowel.

To use it to heat water, remove it from the dowel, set it on something roundish (like a rock or your head) and form it gently into a pot shape. Then set it down and scrunch-roll the edge all around so you have something to hold onto that will help to distribute the weight.

How you would boil water in it without having a rack of some kind to set it on is beyond me. Putting hot stones in it is the only other way I can envision doing it. Tongs or a metal spoon would be nice. A dipper would be a good way to transfer the water.

I don't really think anything is going to sit in a PSK and hold water months or years later. Keep a small pot, cup or billy in your bag and you won't have to worry when you've got enough other problems.

Like the hat idea, but if it will not hold water what good would an aluminum foil hat be in shielding our brains from electromagnetic psychotronic mind control carriers? On an unrelated topic, aren't beer bottle labels made of aluminum?

HAs anyone tried boiling it with heated rocks? This would be my preferred method. I do this quite regularly with my tin cup, and it works fine. Its a far quicker way to boil water, as long as you have enough rocks (yes, lesson learned this week).

"... aren't beer bottle labels made of aluminum?"

That's what you use to decorate the sluminum hats.

If I got beer then why would I want water?
I think the point of the original foil idea was that you might not have a pot, empty can or stuff like that with you. It is a bit bulky to put in a pocket as EDC.
The idea of foil as a makeshift kettle seems to have some drawbacks but it is still an alternative to carrying a big pot just in case.

So far it seems that the problem is with thinner and cheaper foil.
I have not found a supply of really thick foil like MSR uses for camp stove windscreens but I have found a few sources now that are borderline adequate.
The windscreen foil seems a bit too heavy and bulky to fold and pack well anyhow.

Testing of aluminum foil for leaks: I just obtained a roll of "Super Strength Reynolds Wrap". It is by far the thickest (and most expensive) aluminum foil I could find anywhere in the nation (at 34.798 microns) and substantially thicker than the thickness Wikipedia indicates is "impermeable to water” (25 microns).

My first test was to see if, when new and then shaped in the form of cups or bowls of various sizes and configs and with as few winkles and creases as is possible, this aluminum foil would hold water without leaking at room temperature. As soon as I placed water in the first test cup, it started leaking, and in numerous places. Additionally, I could see small drops of water forming on the bottom and sides of the cup in “dozens” of places other than where the main current was originating, and in many cases, where I could not see any creases and wrinkles at all.

I then flow tested the other cups and bowls I had shaped, taking as much care as possible to minimize wrinkles and creases. Each time the cups and bowls leaked all over the place. In each test cup and bowl, the water would commence flowing in some place or other immediately after placing water in them. I could also see on the bottom and sides of the test cups and bowls dozens of other places where drops were forming like perspiration, independently of each other.

My conclusions:

1) If the thickest aluminum foil that I could find anywhere leaks practically straight “out of the box” every time I tested it (while using extreme care to minimize creases, wrinkles and folds), there's no point in attempting to test whether it can be shaped such that water can be boiled in it without it leaking.

2) If you intend to use super strength aluminum foil to fashion a mug to drink beer with, you best be ready to guzzle it down mighty fast.

3) On the positive side, when grilling with it there’s no need to pre-punch holes to allow juices to drip through because it comes right from the factory with all the holes one would ever need and at no extra cost.

In the UK chinese and indian take aways come in foil trays that are waterproof and stay in shape if you want to drink out of them. Why not use that?

and Sushi:
"Something the shape of a spectacle case, but opening on the end would be easy to carry and the right shape to boil water in.
Anyone know of any containers that shape?"

yes i do; a spectacle case.

The Sock

I've heard that stainless steel foil is used to wrap metal parts when heat-treating them in a furnace, to keep out oxygen. I wonder if it would be a better alternative to aluminum foil for holding water? If the SS foil can exclude oxygen it probably does not develop pinholes when folded. Anyone with access to this stuff want to give it a try and let us know how it goes?

Steve

The Stainless heat treat foild is downright dangerous - you don't want to handle it without proper gloves etc - it's like handling razor blades

If the sharp edge problem can be solved, I think we just found the ultimate pack-flat PSK water boiling container:

They make stainless steel pouches for heat treating. The smallest I found was 2.5" x 5"

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/3685/=3mnd9u
Very bottom of the page.

You could fold it in half or cut it shorter. Perhaps some high-temp silicone tape over the edges.

looks good but i'll bet they only sell by the 100's or to company's with some sort of tax license..i looked over the terms but did not see anything on small orders.

McMaster-Carr is the Walmart of the industrial supply world. They carry everything and they'll sell to anybody.

On the other hand, getting one of their 4" thick printed catalogs, I hear, takes an act of congress.

McMaster-Carr will sell small numbers of anything to anyone.

Those catalogs are expensive to produce. If you know of someone who works for an industrial-type company, ask if you can have the previous year's catalog. With their HUGE inventory, it's not going to change soon.

Their website is something of a pain due to all the choices, but if you have a name or number from an older catalog, it will put you in the right area on their website. Otherwise, call them.

Sue

Huh, I ordered a few things from them about 5 years ago, probably less than $200. They sent me one of those doorstops without asking if I wanted it. Maybe they've wised up and don't send them out quite as easily now?