best way to bug out - by water?

The walking thread got me thinking about this again, and wondering what you guys thought – if you live in a major metro area and you HAVE to bug out, isn’t the best way to go by water?

Of course it depends on where you live and what your specific options are, and also what boating skills you have. However, many of the cities in the middle of the country were built on the rivers that were the highways of their day, so it’s easy to live in these cities and be within a few miles of a tributary that leads to the vast Mississippi River system. And many of us are fishermen, comfortable with small boats and familiar with local waters.

If you’re in that group, how’s this for a 2-person bug-out strategy? Start with a small fishing boat with a small gas motor, one that gets 50-100 MPG. Take a good hiking bug-out kit, and add to it 2 mountain bikes and another 1000 pounds of selected survival and comfort gear and food. Carry 15-20 gallons of gas. Tow a canoe to carry some of the gear and to give you another water-based option in case you need to abandon the motor boat.

Then, after the disaster strikes and circumstances develop that make it look unwise to try riding it out at home, monitor your path to the water. You will need to have scouted out the tributary running through the city beforehand so that you know under what conditions it’s deep enough to carry you downstream to the Mississippi or other connecting river, and what obstacles there may be (fallen bridges, etc). When the path is clear and those conditions are met, drive to the river with your boats and gear and launch. Travel to a pre-selected wilderness area, and start living the good life until society settles down.

Oh yes, even if you had to paddle or row.

There is a very good reason why the rivers were the highways of the world.

To bad they don't always go where you want to go.

Usually going downstream leads you towards more civilization, not away from it. I suppose with a power boat you could go upstream on large flat slow moving rivers, but those are probably heavily populated along their entire route - upstream and downstream. You might be able to follow a river into a swamp and find wilderness that way. Are there many boat-navigable rivers in the USA that lead into wilderness areas?

I think it depends on which way you might want to go, and local conditions. You might be able to head in only one direction, if the current will allow only travel downstream. If you are seeking to bug out because the local rivers are flooding, then bugging out via might not be a good option.

I've thought of using the East River to get out of NYC, but it's not really a river. The current in it are strong and tidal. If you jump in at the right time, then you should be able to travel a decent distance on one tide. Currents run at about 3-5 knots (slightly more than 3-5 mph). Figuring that you could make an average of about 2 knots over the period of one flood or ebb tide, that's more than I think most can walk in a single day.

The difficulty in depending on this is know you have the boat and other supplies needed. I simply do not have the room to store any type of a baot that I'd want to trust enough to handle the trip. So, I would consider using any of NYC's river as a route to bug-out only as a last option, and it would only occur with me trying to put something together to float on. It's also not something I can practice.

If you have the space and ability to store a boat, then I'd also hope it was not stored solely for purposes of being prepared to bug out.

Finally, I do not see myself heading for the woods during almost any scenario. I'm a human being not a wildnerness animal. Human beings do better in communities.

It's an interesting idea, Bilojax. And I am not trying to pick it apart, but I need to ask a question...

50-100 MPG in a boat?

I need some of the small fishing boaters here to educate me. The last boat I had ran a 200hp Merc/Mariner and pulled down nearly 6 gallons/HOUR. But that was with a decent size boat with a Deep-V hull. I know the smaller and shallower draft boats have to be a lot more effecient than that.

But I still think range has to be a factor if you bug out via small outboard doesnt it?

Well, all the rivers in the central US lead to the Mississippi River, and probably one of the biggest and least known contiguous wilderness area in the US is the area between the levees on the lower-mid Mississippi River, between St Louis and Natchez MS. I don't know the exact dimensions, but the levees are usually 2-10 miles apart and the area is 600 miles long, as the crow flies, or about 800-900 river miles. In some places, such as the mouths of major tributary rivers, the levees are even further apart. Since it is subject to flood, there is very little building or permanent settlement here, and only a limited amount of farming. Most of it is private hunting camps, since fish and game are plentiful throughout the corridor.

Roughly in the middle of that stretch is the mouth of the Arkansas River, where some public land augments the natural flood area, so the wild area becomes very wide as well as very long. Other, smaller rivers also come in near here and centuries of misbehavior by the mouth of the Arkansas have created a maze of channels in the area. That area would be my first choice for a long-term bug-out (I live in Memphis, about 100-150 miles upstream from there).

Other than that, many (perhaps most?) rivers in the US pass through a National Forest, National Wildlife Refuge, or State Wildlife Refuge at some point on their route - there are hundreds of them, covering millions of acres, and all of those are good near term objectives.

Around my neck of the woods, one would become VERY skilled at carrying a boat. Unless you are only crossing a local lake.

I agree with your first point. I have the two boats I mentioned (small fishing boat with motor and canoe), and I use them actively for recreational purposes, so they are a natural choice for a bug out. As long as I stay disciplined enough to keep them properly maintained, packed and stocked, which alas I do not. But I try, and it has the added benefit of keeping me ready for a spur-of-the-moment recreational trip at any time.

I also MOSTLY agree with your 2nd point, which is why I live in a city and not the country. But I see the possibility that, in extreme circumstances, the usually friendly and benficial human community that I like to have all around me could turn on me, and I could be nearly helpless to defend myself, unless I have thought out and prepared a way to do so. That's all I'm suggesting here.

And anyhow, remember CCR and proud mary - river people can be pretty cool too. (Lyrics: "You dont have to worry cause you have no money, People on the river are happy to give.")

BTW, in your situation there is an out similar to mine, and I know some people who are planning to use it (or at least talk like they are, like me - who knows what we'll do if push comes to shove). There is a sport similar to canoeing called Sea Kayaking. It's difficult in some ways and pretty dangerous on its own, so it's not something you'd want to take up solely for the sake of bugging out from a massive terrorist attack. But if you already do it anyway for fun and you build up your skills, it definitely gives you the ability to escape Manhattan on short notice and carrying plenty of survival gear. My friends have paddled before from Manhattan to Delaware Bay in two days - that;s about 100 miles, I think. They paddle the East River regularly, although they don't much like it - too dirty and too many other boats that don't respect small boats.

They're not alone, either - the sport seems to be catching on, somewhat at least. I think they said there was some kind of East River Race this year, and over 100 kayakers showed up for it.

Upon reflection, I’m probably wrong on that 50-100 MPG number. I guess I measured something wrong (starting gas level) or over estimated my distance or something. I need to get a better number for that. My number was based on a test 20 mile run I did on a slow river, 10 miles up and then 10 miles back down, and I thought I only used about 1/4 of a gallon, which would be 80 MPG. I knew it was a small sample so I fudged it to 50-100, thinking that had to cover it. But now that I look it up online, it looks way out of line.

In my defense, the number sounded kind of reasonable if you think of the big differences between auto MPG, motorcycle MPG and dirt bike MPG. Also, just subjectively, when I go out fishing in my zodiac I never use much fuel - I think I use more gas cutting the grass than running the outboard in an average summer. It seems like you can run around forever on a fraction of a gallon of gas. But then, I rarely travel 80 miles when I'm out fishing a lake.

Searching on the internet, I’m seeing numbers like 4 MPG and 6 MPG – the highest is 10 MPG. I'm sure I'm doing better than that - that’s all with bigger boats and bigger engines and bigger propellers and running flat out with boat on a plane. I’m running a new 6HP Tohatsu on an inflatable Zodiac with 400 lbs of boat and contents and usually about half throttle, which gives me a speed of 5-7 MPH. I haven’t yet found any numbers for a setup like that. I also have “lifters” (fin-looking devices) installed at the bottom of the transom and an inflatable keel, which improves the performance. All those things should work for me, although probably not enough to reach anywhere near 80 MPG. Maybe 20 MPG? 30 MPG?

I did find this chart for a 25HP motor on a bigger, but still lightweight zodiac:
RPM MPH GPH MPG
1000 2.4 0.1 47.00
1500 3.5 0.1 34.50
2000 4.5 0.3 14.83
2500 5.3 0.5 10.60
3000 6.0 0.8 7.50
3500 6.9 1.2 5.96
4000 14.2 1.4 10.52
4500 18.2 1.6 11.38
5000 21.3 1.8 11.83


I wonder if those low RPM numbers are a quirk of the testing instruments or if they are real – 47 MPG at 2.4 MPH? I had picked out the half-throttle point as what seemed most efficient, in terms of speed versus how much effort the engine seemed to be making judging by the noise it made. Maybe the secret is to throttle down a little from there.

Bottom line, yes, range matters a great deal, and I purposely favored a small outboard and lightweight boat on the theory that fuel economy is much greater. If that's not true, then it might change my approach somewhat. If it is true then my choices are okay, but I still need to get a better handle on the exact numbers so I can plan better.

There are some other things to consider. Locks and dams being just 2 of them. You might have to portage your boat around a few obstacles like those.

Why you have to evacuate is another one.
For example if it is because of floods you might not want to be on the water at all.

But going by water if ready to do it and with a decent plan is a good way.

Well, I am moving to a suburb soon, and our neighborhood is close to Long Island Sound, and I'd like to take it up.

Otherwise, I think storing anything, a decent inflatable kayak might be an answer. But things still would need to be pretty desparate. If I needed to go, my first option is the car, followed by a train. If using the trains can get me about 30 miles out, I should be ok for most things that require fast evacuation.

If I got stuck on the wrong side of an incident of prolonged civil unrest, I would be thinking about using the tides to get me from here to Long Island Sound.

Bilojax,

Sounds like a nice little set-up for your boat. I didn't realize we were taking an inflatable and motor of that size (nice set-up btw!). I can see how you could get some pretty good efficiency out of that combo.

Of course the other nice thing about that size/style of boat is the ability to beach when and where needed. It's not like you need to look for a slip like you would with a bigger boat. See a gas station along a coastal road? Just beach it and walk up with your cans. Nice.

In a worst case situation I would also worry about the lack of cover on the water. Perhaps traveling at night but that would make the navigation harder. There would be the noise from a motor boat that may attract unwanted attention.

I like that idea better than walking. But, in the part of the country I am familiar with, rivers are dry ditches most of the year...

True – an abandoned lock is like a dam and requires a portage, which could be very time-consuming. Here it helps that my transport means in crisis is also my hobby in everyday life, so I have occasion to learn the location of such obstacles. As it happens, there are no locks or dams on the Mississippi River below St Louis, or on my local tributary.

If absolutely necessary, I can make a portage with my described set-up. Everything breaks down into pieces with the heaviest piece (the outboard motor) weighing 60 pounds. Of course, if I’m carrying over 1000 pounds worth of supplies all together, we’re talking a great many trips and a day long portage. I wonder if I could tie the two mountain bikes together to make a wheeled cart of some sort?





Well, that’s actually a hard question for me. In most disaster scenarios I can think of, I’d rather stay and try to help out in my local community than bug out with just a few people. I guess the turning point would be how others are behaving. If everybody around me turns predatory and it’s a survival-of-the-fittest, dog-eat-dog, thunderdome-road-warrior type situation, then I guess I’d rather compete in the wild than in a post-urban-wasteland environment.

Of course, even if you run for the woods, other men are still going to be your greatest danger. That thought contributed to my choice of the Arkansas River swamp as a hiding place rather than a more scenic and pleasant location, like a mountain lake - plus, it’s hard to beat a swamp for natural food production.




Another poster mentioned floods also. I’m not sure I see the problem. In many cases, being in a boat in times of flood would be an advantage. Are you thinking of navigation hazards? It’s true that floods can create some very devious death traps for the unwary, and they may be unexpected to someone who is not familiar with small boat navigation. However, this reinforces the advantage of using a recreational hobby as your transport means in the event of a forced bug-out. I think I’m aware of the dangers created by flooding, and I even go out purposely during big floods to get first hand experience (we call it “having fun”) with whirlpools and low-head dams and temporary cut-offs and the like.

Is there another flood-related concern I should be thinking about?

Tillamook Bay Lifeboat Station, opening summer season, 1976.

I walk down the PCH to the boat shed. I pass 4 car collisions in less than the half block distance. I observe a cab over camper towing a airstream trailer and behind that a boat. He is backing the boat down the loading ramp. He hits the gas instead of the brakes. The huge V 8 puts everything into the water. Owner is screaming he's drowning. I remove my shoes and socks, walk into the waist deep bay and open his door, guiding him to the dry bosom of terra firma.Some jasper makes a joke about 'shallow water sailors.' I conduct an immediate courtesy safety inspection, find him wanting and tell him to buy 3 more PFDs before he launches.

I get down to the boats, find 3 tourists on board 'just looking around.' I threaten them with arrest for tresspassing on government property.I'm reminded they pay taxes. I remind them I do too and call the sherrif.

I am barely underway when a high performance oat races down the pier, hits the beach, becomes airborne and explodes in hte still jumbled logs from the great tilllamook burn decades past. Sherrif walks over with me and calls the coroner. We get a radio call about a flipped boat. I switch on the strobe, hit the horn and push my throttle forward. Some guy in a handbuilt, italian rowing shell crosses my bow yelling 'sailboats and rowing vessels have hte right of---crunch' and I take off most of his shell just forward of his feet. He is scraming profanities as I continue on.

We dodge several other 'vessels' oblivious to our strobe, siren and my loudhails before reaching the 'capsized vessel.' It is a boston whaler and out of gas, the one I told to buy 3 more PFDs.

I tow tehm in and am told our Co needs to talk. I return to the station and my rowing enthusiast is in the office screaming. Chief asks me what happened. I tell him. Chief says it's my call. I issued a citation for interfering with a emergency vessel underway.

We get a call about a 'disturbance' up at Neah Bay and the local sheriff couldn't investigate right away, and could we take jurisdiction? I drive up and discover a very dead, beached pilot whale. A crowd of people are stabbing it with every tool imaginable and one guy shooting the body with a BB gun.

I disarm the BB Nimrod and order the beach cleared. Nimrod protests. It's a Great White Shark and it needs killing to protect his grandkids in Portland.

I drive back to base, observing 3 more car accidents.

So, tell me again why you want to venture onto a waterway after a situation calls for buggong out?

I'm in the same boat with Dan_Mcl (pun intended). I have a 26 foot motor sailor in Brooklyn. My concern is that it is on the opposie side of Brooklyn from where I live. Don't know that I could get there in a SHTF situation, or that the boat would be there when I did. For that reason, I don't keep bugout supplies on board, other than the regular emergency supplies.

If I had some warning, or had someone prepositioned at the boat, it could be sailed to within two blocks of my home, near the Gowanus Canal. So it is always an option. I figure if they have to evacuate a major metropolitain area like NYC, boat is much preferable to driving or walking. Trying to get approx. 9 million people out over seven bridges or three tunnels is not going to go smoothly.

BTW, the mileage chart provided by bilojax is probably accurate. I have a 50 hp Honda on the boat, and if I keep the rpms at about 1,500 I get an easy 25mpg. Haven't figured a way to account for the current, so that figure will increase or decrease depending on conditions.

"...I issued a citation for interfering with a emergency vessel underway..."

You luck dog you. Many is the time I wanted to stop and cite some yoyo for putting me into the dirt median of I-5 at 'bout 140mph or so, oblivious to my lights and siren (OK, at that speed the siren can't be heard ahead of the my vehicle, but the lights are sure visible). But I just got back under control and continued to whatever "emergency" I was responding to...

That must have been in a rural area. All my experience on the 5 was at 5mph in all lanes.

Welcome to Los Angeles!!!!!

"So, tell me again why you want to venture onto a waterway after a situation calls for buggong out?"

Ha Ha. Opening day of the boating season is always a lot of fun. As long as you are watching from the beach.

I would definitely not bug out on the opening day of boating season. Usually takes a week or two for Darwin to do his thing, then it is somewhat safer (relatively speaking).

Yup, central valley. When I worked in Los Angeles I always worked graveyard shift, so we could drive fast. Drove '69 Dodge 440 magnums, a four door rocket ship...

Yep, that's the biggest danger in the scenario I've drawn, because a river only goes one way and you have to follow the river. Any potential stalker knows where you will be in the future, and so can set up a perfect ambush. The smaller the river, the worse the danger from onshore, because not only is he more likely to hit you, but he feels more confident of recovering your gear and so has a stronger incentive to attack.

On a big river like the Mississippi you can get some protection from an ambush by staying near the middle, but then that exposes you more to pirates who have bigger boats, more people and bigger guns than your party.

I love this part:

If "worst come to worst" you would be more worried about military action.
The airforces of the world have a nasty habit of strafing roads and of sinking anything the see on the water too.

Being a landlubber, I have to ask those of you who are more into the water, is there a lugnut rule on the water???

The 7 MVA's, are a good start. Part of my bugout plan involves a boat (IF NEEDED)[b][/b] and I feel water is still safer than the roads!
That reminds me, I need a bigger deck gun on the bow!

What's the lugnut rule?

He who has the most lug nuts, wins (in a collision).

Based on the pattern that used to exist where bigger vehicles had more lug nuts per wheel. Nowadays, there are many exceptions to the rule.

Most or biggest, either way is good...

Never less than 8. Son#1 just had to have 4. If I remove the 5th wheel hitch and tool box/tank it ALMOST fits in the bed of my truck.

Maybe the equivalent in boating is:

He who has the biggest wake
Survives to attend the other boaters wake

It's the same thing as the "Gross Tonnage Rule." The bigger boat often, and sometimes, rightfully, gets the right of way, because he may just need more room. Ask wildman how he would feel about a Boston Whaler or a bass boat getting in his way, when he has a good-sized tow, especially with the curretn behind him. In some cases, there is nothing else a larger vessel can do but stick to the channel, and stopping a large vessel might not happen for a great distance.

Note that there may be a "relative hull strength corollary" that is an addendum to the "gross tonnage rule." If the bigger boat is made of thin fiberglass, the smaller boat with a stronger hull wins.

DesertFox, your boat presents options because it's a real boat. I'd feel very comfortable taking a boat that size up either the East of North (Hudson) Rivers, and a lot more local places. It's not something DW would want to live aboard for a night, but if you had to, it's possible. It would be the heck out of a sea kayak, inflatable or not.

bilojax, flood presents dangers because the water leaving the flooded area is going to be moving, possibly darned fast. If you do not have experience handling a vessel in that kind of a current, I wouldn't want to be in the boat with you.

I have experience taking a vessel through the East River. I've been through it a number of times on tugboats with tows, learned how to get through it from a pilot that had a ton of experience in the area, and I taught a whole bunch of people how to get through it's toughest spot, the correctly named "Hell Gate." That experience gives me some knowledge about how to navigate in that area. However, that does not give me the feeling I have enough experience to get safely through the area in a kayak.

If you were in a boat being sept away by flood waters, you are likely to have a tough darn time keeping control and you will be moving fast. Seems like a dangerous combination to me.

I'm not totally ruling out evacuation via water as an option, but it's simply not high on the list of things I want to do.

You're a poet and don't know it...

OBG, on the water, we call it the "Law of Gross Tonnage",,,,he who has more weight will win in a collision!!

Aren't there rules regarding Right of Way for deep draft vessels?

Rules are rules, but in the end, Gross Tonnage rules (at least until you get into court).

Kindasorta like this ???

The Andrea Doria sank after the merchant ship she spotted from miles away also assumed she would alter course.
A USN cruiser, USS Belknap was virtually stripped from the deck up colliding with an aircraft carrier, and in WW2 a british cruiser was cut in half by the Queen Mary.
My 'sea daddy' BMC Lonnie white taught me " always give anything big enough to sink you TWICE the manuevering room you think it needs and add 10% to that."

Then there is PT109....

JFK took a little bitty wooden boat to a big steel boat demo derby. Little bitty wooden boats have no lug nuts...

I think he means more like this,
sailer vs ferry

OOOoooh, Maersk's (the line that runs the blue vessel) P&I rates went up after that one. Maersk ships are distinctive in that they are that color. Judging only by the video clip, the Marsk ship probably had some more risk in the litigation that followed. However, I'd guess that both ships were found to have some responsibility, as seems to almost always be the case.

That may be more like it...

Oh, you were talking about current speed when you warned about flood levels. True, that could catch some people by surprise, if they weren’t prepared for it. It’s probably worse on the ‘Sippi than on most other rivers, because of the sheer volume and the man-made straight-aways. I’ve got some data from the USACE that indicates current speeds could approach 12-14 MPH in the sweet spots at record flood levels – that’s incredibly fast for water moving on a big river.

In my hypothetical bug-out from Memphis, I would love to have flood conditions, the bigger the better. Remember, the biggest hazard to me in that situation is encountering hostiles, either on the bank or in boats on the river (I’ll call the latter “pirates”). If the banks are under water that eliminates that part of the threat, and a faster current makes my transit downstream faster so there’s less time for pirates to find me. If pirates do spot me in flood conditions, I’ve got a much better chance of getting away because I can travel shallow areas where they don’t dare go, and there are more of those areas at flood. Also, in a big flood I can get into the trees and have some shelter from long distance gun fire, while continuing to travel downstream.

As for your situation in NYC, I still think a sea kayak would provide better options than a motor-boat would for a properly skilled paddler.

If there’s not a country-wide breakdown of law and order, then I agree your best bet would be to hook up with someone like DesertFox, and motor on down to Delaware on a 26-footer (provided somebody closer when the SHTF doesn’t steal the boat first). However, if the whole nation is lawless then there are going to be pirates all over that area, and a 26-foot motor boat is going to be more of a reason to get shot than a tool to help you survive. With a boat like that, you can’t hide, you can’t run it up on shore and drag it inland if someone is chasing you, you can’t creep across shallows in the dark of night. You need a dock to park it, and you’re going to need a gas pump every second day to keep it going.

By contrast, if you had a sea kayak and the skills to handle moderately rough seas in it, you could still cover enough distance to effect an escape – 50 to 70 miles per day is very doable for a few days of hard paddling, so you could be in Delaware Bay in 2 days. But you would be far less attractive as a target for pirates, as well as much harder to catch. And you would have more options for where to go next and what to do for food when you got there.

By the way, a sea kayak and an inflatable kayak are very different boats. The word kayak gets overused, I know it’s confusing. In the boating world, a “sea kayak” is a hard-shell, purpose-built craft designed to travel fast (7-10 MPH) and to handle rough seas in all weathers, but it requires a high degree of skill to operate it. By contrast, the term “inflatable kayak” covers a range of mostly recreational, slow (2-3 MPH), easy-to-use “mini-rafts” that are narrow enough to be propelled by a single person sitting on it and using a kayak (double-bladed) paddle. They’re fairly stable and easy to use in calm water, but they’re trouble in waves and especially surf.

An inflatable kayak might give you an escape route if you can launch into Long Island Sound, provided the Connecticut coast stays pretty tame (both weather and political disturbance-wise) and your destination lies somewhere between there and Cape Cod. But you won’t be able to go south, and from what I’ve heard, you’d never make it out of NY Harbor if you tried launching from Manhattan.

For some good sea carnage, search You Tube for "Greenpeace rammed". There are several big ship collisions, a couple Zodiac versus twice-as-big-Zodiac crashes (including one cool run-over), and a couple big ships narrowly missing little zodiacs.

I'd put up links but there are a bunch of them. Let me know if anybody is interested but can't find them.