Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth

Every time I see a well thought out survival kit, I print it out and keep a copy of it. Last night I was reading through several kits and got to thinking.

Why do we worry so much about making our kits so small and lightweight. Think of what it will take to be warm and dry on a wet rainy night. In my imagination, a survival situation will be wet with wet grass, wet ground, and wet leaves. Even if you get a fire going you will not have a dry place to sit or sleep and anything you would try to make a shelter from is also wet. Adding 4 pounds of shelter and warmth would make survival so much easier. With a decent pack, I don't notice the weight that much. 4 pounds would give you a warm dry place to sleep and a light sleeping bag or blanket. There are lots of ways to get there; a poncho and liner, a tube tent and sleeping bag, a bivy and sleeping bag, etc. will all make for a comfortable night out.

I always wear a day pack when I hike. A compact sleeping bag and a little shelter are very manageable in addition to a few survival tools, water and gear. All this together shouldn't weigh over 10 pounds unless I have to carry a lot of water.

David Enoch

Good points.

When I hike with friends I invariably have the heaviest pack. And if something bad happens we'll be glad for the extra gear I carry.

Most of us could stand to lose 4 pounds of fat and that would be a good trade for many reasons.

That is EXACTLY on target. I think shelter and warmth are two elements of outdoor/wilderness survival that are often overlooked while assembling "the kit".

You might remember Chris, our beloved moderator, saying a few weeks back that that his most important survival tool was his sleeping bag. He wasn't kidding.

My thought on the matter is that when out and about you need to wear enough clothing to SURVIVE (not necessarily be comfortable) a few nights outdoors. Outdoorsafe.com calls this "dress to survive - not just arrive". Your clothing should provide the majority of the insulation need to deal with the cold for several days.

Now, what about the wet ground and the rain/dew that is so often associated with unexpected nights outdoors? THAT is why it is so important to carry at least two 'chunks' of some kind of waterproof material. I myself like carry at least two large (50-60 gallon) orange plastic bags. Either sit on - or better yet step into - one of the bags, and then put the over your head AFTER tearing a face-hole in one corner. Those bags can easily cover a large part of your body without flapping edges and such. Plus, the color is such that it enhances your chance of being found.

BTW, lately I've been looking at bivy bags, and couldn't help but notice that some of the small solo tents, such as the Eureka Spitfire, weight and and might even pack about the same size as the bivies. Am I wrong on that?

Ken

Combine your plastic bag shelter with a fly net, and you are amazingly protected from whatever mught come your way.

Now, you may need to be a little careful to place the bags such that they can vent a little, so as to limit condensation, but that's not too hard.

Ditto.

good thoughts,but this is where we get into what is a survival kit and what is the stuff we carry around when we go hiking,canoeing,rockhounding?..the "kit" to me is something small enought to be carryed un-noticed untill the moment you need to survive--matches-foil bag-ration bar-..the other stuff is the Lite-Hiker knapsack with enought gear to camp out if need be..my survival kit is the stuff i carry in the pockets of my PFD. compact food,a pot.Bic,and a Heatsheet bag are top items.-- i know it's hair splitting but i think of it this way.
the news report---"he "survived for a week before he was found"--V.S. "we found him camped out,lost, back in the hills"

I could not agree with you more!!

I actually tend to carry my "kit" in pieces in my pockets rather than in some kind of container. Its just what I perceive to be the critical elements - cell phone, ResQme, knife, fire starting gear, flashlight, whistle, bandana, small compass ... When moving a distance away from my truck (shelter), I'll throw two big orange garbage bags in my back pocket (I don't carry them around work or when out shopping and such).

The one part I don't carry that I probably should is some kind of signal mirror. Unfortunately they just aren't tough enough or small enough to survive the pocket environment. I've also been thinking about adding a small spool of some kind of cord - which is in my pack(s) right now.

I've tried to carry a little pouch on my belt, but I find it uncomfortable.

My daypack and backpack carries the bigger - living a bit more in luxury gear.

Ken

Personally, the reason I don't like carrying a big kit is because the bigger the kit, the more likely it is going to be left behind when you really need it. A lot of times people get into trouble when they least expect it, like a short dayhike, wandering away from camp to use the restroom, exploring a side trail, etc. Those times are when they will most likely leave things behind "just for a minute", especially if it's heavy or bulky.

I do carry a heat sheet bivy bag on every hike, regardless of duration. If there is a very remote chance that I might be spending the night, I'll pack some extra clothes and a poncho/tarp. If there is a decent chance that I might be out overnight, I might carry a regular bivy. For anything more, I'm probably camping anyway and have a full shelter and bag. But that's inside my pack, which might be put down to take a break or whatnot. I'll still carry the really essential equipment on me.

Sounds familiar... how many times have you heard stuff like, "hey, we're just going out for the day", "what's all that stuff for?", "which pocket is the kitchen sink in?"

If I'm with friends in an unstructured activity, when it starts raining, snowing, or someone needs a FAK, or they want to start a fire to warm up, my pack is the go to place for the group? I guess I don't worry about what they think. I don't feel comfortable going out unprepared, so I just try to act responsibly.

Incidently, if I'm the one leading the group, I make sure that folks bring the essentials, or the don't go with me in charge. (Which gets into the whole area of outdoor leadership, but, that's probably another thread.)

Shelter and warmth are so vital, I think everyone here is hitting on some key points.

I agree with KenK. I try to carry everything in my pockets, without letting it get out of hand. I work in an office environment, so cargo pants with each pocket fully loaded doesn't exactly cut it.

In the winter here in Utah, I carry a Heat Sheets blanket and a cheap poncho in two of my coat pockets and take my coat everywhere I go. I have gloves and a stocking cap, in the other pocket. Weather-proof shoes/boots are worn all the winter long. I try to buy stylish AND functional clothing--I don't stand out, but I have what I need when I need it. If a coat doesn't have 4 pockets, it probably won't fit my needs. Same with pants as well. Fleece vests are great in the winter and give 2 more pockets.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "If I thought we were going to be out this long in the cold, I'd have brought [insert preparedness gear here] too!"

Think about weight tho. If cold is your greatest enemy in a given
situation, a couple of pounds of down or polarguard will be more welcome than the same weight of food/water/knife etc.

You obviously can't carry a sleeping bag in an altoids tin, but
I have seen gear lists here that included three or more knives and
multitools and several flashlights, a backpack that empty weighs
4 or more pounds, etc.

Leave out some of the redundancy and allow for the weight of a light sleeping bag or parka.

For example, here is a synthetic sleeping bag that weighs around 2
pounds total.

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=31&p_id=1121773

I'd take that over a 2 lb hatchet any day.

as long as we are on the subject of bags--i'm sure we have all looked thru Ebay for survival gear and seen the orange vacuum packed sleeping bag--$100+ if i recall--and tried that at home with a down or poly bag and really have it worked to the point where you put it into a survival kit and left it there--no taking it out for camping ,that sort of thing?

I guess my point is to not go out with just a small kit. Take enough gear to survive what you fear to be the worst weather you could encounter. While I agree that even a small Altoids kit is much better than nothing, I don't think it will give you much margin for bad weather. It can be done with less weight than 4 pounds but what I am saying is that adding what is needed to keep you safe is worth the weight and space and worth changing your carry method.

David Enoch

I always pack a jacket; very useful shelter. Warm and dry is a priority.

Yes, well maybe not the absolute worst you can imagine, but at least enough for what it is sane and prudent to expect.
For example a person should have enough clothing with them that they can rest comfortably instead of needing to keep moving just to stay warm.
People have died of exposure by getting caught out in the rain when they had nothing but a tee shirt and shorts on. The weather can change a lot in the course of a day.

I tend to think of how many hours away I will be away when considering what to take with me.

If you looked at my kit you will see that I pack an AMK thermal blanket and a Tacoma Mountain Rescue shelter. I'm pondering on adding an AMK bivvy too.

I have the heatsheet and shelter vacuum packed so they easily slip into my pockets. My kit is actually made to disperse into different components that way.

When out on a dayhike, I'm not planning on carrying a tent, but I do have the emergency shelter options with me. The shelter, blanket, and fire making should make for a comfortable night. I will have more than adequate clothing with me to adjust to a swing of temps from day to night.

I'd like to think that most people on this forum carry emergency shelter in their packs as well, but don't necessarily call it their survival kit.

Part of the reason I don't carry such items is that I'm comfortable in my environment and my abilities. In my daypack, I have an AMK bivy (the Gen 1 version), a 2-person heat sheet, and some plastic trash bags. I figure it's enough for a decently comfortable night, when worn over my clothes. I usually have extra clothes (usually a fleece vest at the minimum), so I have insulation there.

If I'm going for a dedicated camping trip, then yeah, I have a tent and sleeping bag.

My exception to this is my bag I'm setting up for Alaska. It'll have my 1-man tent and my sleeping bag, because I just anticipate harsher conditions up there. While a bivy and trash bags may suffice, I'd rather have the security of a bag and tent.

As for why we keep our kits light and small, it's 2 reasons: easier to bring, and easier to carry. You mentioned you keep your kit under 10lbs. I don't know how you keep it so light - mine runs about 15# all told. But IMO, you seem guilty of the "keep it light and small" mentality too. My question is, why do YOU keep it light and small, and what do you leave out to keep it that light?

The problem with the "in my pack" thing is that people ...

(1) ... have things happen that are well beyond the trip
exectations. Such as being stranded on a deserted tropical island when you went on a simple 3-hour tour, so they simply can't "pack correctly" ... I'm simply NOT going to carry a sleeping bag or tent while hiking 3-5 miles on a recreational area trail. I will carry plastic bags, or other survival shelters.


(2) ... fall prey to gear-seperation. Examples: Canoe overturns, flash flood takes tent w/ gear in it, tent catches on fire, person gets lost on way from quick potty-break, plane crashes & burns, took a quick afternoon hike with gear back at camp and got lost, gear was supposed to have been ferried to the main camp but didn't show up, ...

Again, in my own view, if the kit isn't with you at ALL times when outdoors, then its not a survival kit - its backpacking/camping gear. People simply don't expect to have to survive - it comes without warning.

Just my view.

'...i think of it this way. the news report---"he "survived for a week before he was found"--V.S. "we found him camped out,lost, back in the hills" '

You must be a lot more sensitive than I am, because I simply don't give a sh** what some news article says. Not even a tiny bit. I am not responsible for what other people think.

I know there's a difference between the PSK you keep in your pocket all the time and what you have the rest of the time (and even that is probably stair-stepped).

Where will you be when you're away from home, and what is your mode of transportation? How far from help are you likely to be? How bad of a spot will you be in if you break (or even badly sprain) your ankle?

Okay, so you keep your Altoids tin in your pocket all waking hours. Fine. You're in town, it's all you need. SmSize > Bulk/Wt.

Day hiking, you simply never know what you will encounter. Here's where traveling ultra-light is really stupid. You can't control the weather, especially. You're either smart enough to allow for changes, or you're dumb enough to be a statistic -- it's your choice.

You keep a smallish backpack in your vehicle in case you need it to get home. It's small enough to carry, and what it contains is more important than the weight. Wt+Bulk=Need.

If you're traveling out in the boonies (commuting or general travel), you could be caught far from help. Now you may need more stuff than you can carry easily, but it's in your vehicle, so you may be able to shelter in the vehicle.
Bulk+Wt > Convenience.

Fit your carry to where you're going. Ultra-light carry has proven to be deadly for quite a few people. I'm sure they haven't found all the bodies yet.

Sue

I couldn't agree more. As Doug says, if it isn't with you, it's not going to help you.

I have lots of stuff in my pack. I also have a lot of stuff on my person in case my pack goes bye-bye.

Can you guess how many times I told the scouts to take their pack with them when going out in to the woods this weekend?!?!

I respect your view and I agree that it´s very important to carry as much as you can in your pocket, etc. but I wouldn´t hesitate to call a certain gear a part of my survival kit if it´s carried in my backpack. If it´s there as an answer for situations when things go bad it´s sure part of my "survival kit". Whether it´s every second with me is in my opinion different thing - it doesn´t make it camping/backpacking gear when it is in fact designed and/or carried for possible survival situation.

My survival kit consists of two parts - first part are the most important survival items I carry in my pockets and the heavier and bigger part is in my backpack, ... . Just my perspective.

In warmer weather, a couple pounds of tarp, a couple more of wool blanket, a few ounces of mesh or parasilk hammock, and a few more ounces of webbing and paracord is absolutely one of the best things I can have in the kit. A little heavier than four pounds, call it five. *shrugs*

As a person who does a lot of hiking, I totally agree on this. The environment and my abilities always helps decide which items I carry and which items stay in the car or at home.

On day hikes, the tent and sleeping bags stay home. However extra clothes and some shelter, whether it is the sil-tarp or just a 9x7 sheet of medium weight clear plastic are put into the pack. For the clothing, my standard is the clothes I am wearing plus enough in the pack to keep me warm for 10-15 C overnight drop in temperature without a night fire.

Also when out, I am always on the watch for any improvised shelters that can be used such as overturned tree stumps, rock overhangs etc. These are marked either on our map as we progress or in a small notebook and I always take a photo of the possible shelter and it's immediate area for future reference as seen in the below photos.

Although the photos have been cropped to save bandwidth, all 4 of these improvised shelters are very safe from any danger of surrounding collapse, flood etc. With 10- 15 minutes work to clear spruce up the area and with the addition of the above carried sil-tarp or plastic, our shelters are now large enough for 2 people and offers great protection from the elements. With a small fire burning close by, our odds of comfortably surviving almost any type of weather for multiple nights/days have improved immensely.

Rock and ground overhang. A bit of work to clear out the dirt and level it off a bit, 2 people could lay in there with ease as it is deeper then it looks


Hollowed out cedar stump Once most of the rocks are removed, 2 people could sit /lay in there with leg room to spare)


This cave can also fit 3-4 people and the view is terrific as it looks out into a canyon.


This overturned tree stump /root system is huge and has many great options to rig a comfortable shelter. The dirt is easy to move out and although it is difficult to see in the photo, just behind the slight overhang in front, there is plenty of room to sit completely upright.

Sherp--great photos--good thinking..i read a good book about a hiker in northern minnesota who sheltered in nothing more than a space like that and survived for a week or so in freezing weather--no fire-left his gear in his tent trying to find where he took a wrong turn and got lost.those may not look like much but with the stuff we talk about carrying--foil bag-bic--so on..you could live in those--

Thanks, carrying around a couple of cameras, lenses and a small tripod has some rewards other then just memories of a hike for me. I find the extra weight is well worth the reference material I can look back on days or months later.

In all the years I have spent outdoors, there have only been 4 times where making an expedient overnight shelter on the trail was truly needed. Although none of these times were in a true live or death situation, knowing that by looking around, observing and imagining different shelters while walking as seen in the example photos I posted, can pay dividends if and when the time comes.

Shelter is the most overlooked thing. A lot of crises can be survived with the ability to get through a wet cold night in OK shape.

Much maligned though they may be, a space blanket can make a huge difference, and can genuinely be carried in a shirt pocket so it is always with you.

I keep a cheap disposable poncho and a space blanket in most of my coat pockets - I may not be going miles from civilisation, but if I break my leg walking the dog in the woods, I intend to be dry and warm until rescue turns up

Although I carry a space blanket, it is only a very small part of the equation in staying warm on cold wet nights.

Space blankets are "maligned" for this very reason as people have carried them for years and wonder why these blankets offer very little warmth when needed. If you are wearing cold wet clothes, the little heat that your body is giving off is not enough to dry nor warm these clothes....this also does not factor in ambient temperature, wind and humidity. Wrapping yourself in a space blanket may help somewhat but it is no substitute for proper preparation of shelter.

To test this, go out in the backyard when it is cold and raining and ensue you have with wet clothes on. Wrap yourself in a space blanket and spend the night with it and nothing else for shelter. Sure you will probably survive (which is the ultimate goal) however I can guarantee that you will not be warm and will of spent a very miserable night.

Good photos Sherpadog.

There have been a few times that any one of those four spots would have looked good.
With a small fire in front of you and that uprooted stump as a reflector behind your back you likely would be nice and warm as well as out of the wind and weather.

With a sleeping bag and some insulation under me I might be tempted to sleep in late.
( I have seen bears den up for the winter in spots just like that blowdown.)

Sherpadog, i believe most of us will take a pass on your suggested experiment with the space blanket.

We believe you!

You can get a full shelter i.e. tent, sleeping bag and mat for just over 4lbs. It is expensive though.

PHDesigns Minim 400 Down Bag @ 670gms Good to -5C.

http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=25_58&products_id=118

Thermarest NeoAir Sleeping Mat (medium) @ 370gms

http://www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=134&cID=1

TerraNova LaserLight Competetion tent @ 940gms

http://www.terra-nova.co.uk/Product_Type...iew=description

Total 1.98 Kg = 4.356lbs

Or you could just forget the LaserLight tent and add 200gms to the PHDesigns Minim down bag with a Goretex shell and add a silnylon tarp Intergral Designs Silshelter @ 470gms

http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=729

Total 1.71Kg = 3.76 lbs

SherpaDog's practice of logging good sheltering sites for emergency use is quite smart and I will be shamelessly emulating that from now on!

I agree with CanoeDogs: we're getting into a semantic issue about the line between "survival kit" and "stuff I'm carrying for the trip I'm on". Like others have said, there's simply no way I'm going to tote 4 lbs of sleeping bag and tarps on a 3 mile dayhike. I do carry these shelter-specific items on the hike (among other essentials, of course):

- AMK HeatSheets bivvy bag
- two of these plastic bags
- a torso-sized piece of 1/2" closed cell foam
- gaffer's tape
- some paracord
- a few cable ties
- the knowledge and prior field experience of putting these components together to rig an emergency shelter, along with bushcraft skills

This thread brings to mind the 1st/2nd/3rd line gear philosophy. Sleeping bags & tents are definitely 3rd line gear, while what most would call survival kits/supplies are 1st line.



I have a set of these little mirrors on order. I'll test them and report back here on the forum. My idea is to cover the reflective side with a piece of a PDA screen protector to prevent scratches while stowed.

True. Not my first choice but so small and light and cheap there is no excuse not to have at least that. In addition, it is a great way to add a rainproof layer to a shelter - and when cold tired injured and lost, with the light failing, it can make a difference, when the tarp is still in your daypack you left behind, and constructing a lean to is just beyond your abilities at that point.

It's not all you need - but it's the least you should have, andit can sit alongside your PSK and pocketknife so it is always with you.

That is a good standalone phrase right there.

My problem with space blankys is that you can't keep the separation from your clothing large enough to let them work as a heat reflector.When they are tight to you all they really are doing is either keeping rain off you or breaking the wind.
They have no value as insulation for heat loss by conduction instead of radiation.
They are not really big enough to be an effective tarp either.
(the original ones with the ripstop fabric and grommets were a bit better, but not enough to matter.

In return for that they trap condensation from your perspiration and make your clothes damp if they are not wet already.

Large (yard size?)heavy duty garbage bags will do all of that for me and much more cheaply.
Orange trash bags make pretty good flags too, and might increase the odds of me getting found if there is anybody looking for me.

Trash bags are also just strong enough to use for other things too like tarp, water carrier....etc

Where a space blanket does work is hanging it at an angle above or behind you to reflect more of the radiant heat from a fire onto your body instead of losing that radiated heat to the trees or outer space.

If you are sitting up and the Space Blanky is draped loosely it is able to work better.

Say Glock-A-Roo, are those plastic bags you showed the same as the ones thay are used to ship matresses in?

I don't know, they come flat packed from that website. They are about the size of mattress bags, though. That's probably the kind of thing the website sources the bags from.

I see Wiggy bags are actually available shrink wrapped. Do they really work after that?
QJS

I would assume they do Joey, but how would you repack them?

I have been disappointed in the claims made by space blankets and what is effectively a space blankety sleeping bag makes me wonder.

I quit trusting what was said on packaging for anything said a long time ago.
I figure if I am betting my life on something I want to be sure it does what it says it will do, and that means actually trying it out in a controlled situation on myself.

I might consider getting one to try out, and maybe if it works well I would get more of them for packing in bail out or car kits.

Repacking it might not matter if it was a real situation.

EDIT: OK, I misunderstood what you meant by a Wiggy Bag and was going by what I had seen posted on their web page.
Forget about this post as a comment on Wiggy bags and just read it as being about the space blanketty type bags.

I carry (in a day sack or haversack) 2 foam sit mats, A lightweight poncho, waterbottle, snacks, hat, gloves, extra warm layer, head torch. Plus the usual in my pockets.

One thing that was drummed in to me years ago was that you never, ever, go anywhere without it. Not even to take a wizz. Because if it goes wrong, it will go wrong with very little or no warning.

Amen.

Ski training once, just outside the search truck, we piled all our
packs in the ski rescue sled (to simulate a body) to see how steep a hill we could ski it down.

Where we couldn't get our snow pits
to show signs of layer weakness or cornices to fail with one person jumping up and down, with the load of 8 bodies holding
onto the sled, the snow collapsed and the sled rode 50' down
the little hill with a small avalanche.

In our packs, in the buried sled,
were our shovels and probes.

Hence, ALWAYS carrying stuff, you will always be prepared, and Mr. Murphy will overlook you

Now there is a lesson learned the hard way...

I used to settle for the 2 garbage bag and duct tape solution to shelter/warmth, but in my dotage I prefer a bit more insulation now, so based on everyone's recommendations, I bought and have used the AMK heatsheets and bivy's, and they are just enough to make it AOK.

Oh, and I lug a small tarp/paracord just in case of rain, about a pound's worth of weight.

I'm currently carrying an AMK Thermo-Lite II bivvy, 3 space blankets, 2 contractor bags, and an 8'x10' tarp with cord and stakes. I don't want to do without some shelter.

A long time back, I almost bought a prime winter buffalo robe. The wieght @ 30 lbs and cost left me cold. Next I looked at a Hudson's Bay point blanket. Both wieght and cost were more reasonable, but then I thought of packing that pretty blanket and it went on my bed.
So I waited one field trip to long, freezing in a rectangle car bag in Anza Borrega. I went the following weekend, and arrival of my G.I. bill check to visit my local ski rental and outdoor shop. Down bags in the popular red and deep blue hung like so many crysalis.
I told my friend and salesman I 'would never be cold again' with all the determination of Scarlet O'Hara. He produced two bags hidden away.They were this split pea green colour and were rated 4 season, -20 degrees. I hesitated, and he dropped the price $20 BELOW the 3 season bags. I can't see popular colours with my eyes closed anyway. I bought it.A Silva Ranger compass, balaclava, mittens and 3 pair of socks went home with me that day.
Next field trip to the desert brought a rare snowfall. People were jumping into cars to sleep sitting in their bags. I pulled my tarp over me, noted in the dark the direction of snowfall by my luminescent compass, sort of wormed my face to leeward and fell asleep.
That bag lasted beyond my best hoped for expectation. No annual camping trips, but near weekly field excavations and full, 3 month summer use.
And even when it started to fall apart, a gifting of goosedown found it's way into countless springtime bird and small animal nests. I like to think the vigorous crop of babies was from my old bag.
It was replaced with a 4 lb, 0 degree rated Wiggy bag. Lamilite is a remarkable material, and I am satisfied. I also pack it on day hikes, secured to my german issue day rucksack that holds my sil tarp, paracord and George Carlin 'stuff.'
I get looks and comments all the time. Well not the one day my group came upon an injured hiker who we got into my bag until the Park Rangers arrived well after dusk.
The buffalo robe or point blanket would sure look neat though, sitting down among the ultralight hiking crowd, pulling a bottle of red wine, fruitcake and beef jerky.
Oh, Lamilite will regain it's full loft very quickly as opposed to even goosedown. The compression packing is VERY expensive.Unless you're punching out of a F 16, just hang it on your daypack, maybe sew a Bigfoot research association patch on it.Bigfoots are rumoured to love fruitcake.

That's what they claim, but I don't have personal experience. Based on Chris' comments I want one, badly!

Steve

"Four pounds of shelter and warmth"

The night that I was looking at various kits and got to thinking about this was a cold rainy night. It was about 33 degrees and everything was wet. When I looked at the kits I was definitely thinking about the weather that we were experiencing outside.

I also hike in Colorado every summer on vacation and there it can go from very hot to snowing in a matter of an hour or two up high in the mountains.

I carry a couple of trash bags and a Heat Sheet, but have been adding a poncho and poncho liner or light sleeping bag to my daypack for almost every hike. If I break a leg or are otherwise injured, I may not be able to scout out a good natural shelter. I once broke my foot just by slipping off some cross ties at my house and landing in a very odd angle on my foot. It can and does happen. In the summer in Texas where I live, I could get by without much in the way of shelter but I feel it is worth the extra weight.

I don't mean to put down anyone's kit. We each have to carry what we are comfortable with. For me, I will opt to carry a little more bulk and weight.

David Enoch

I've said this before. The bottom line is at day's end we all crawl into our own sleeping system with the chosen knife as companion.
What caught my attention to Wiggys was not Jerry's combative nature ( honed by a lot of people who would not, or could not refute his knowledge of insulation. It was the late Chris Janowsly of Alaska. Chris was a dealer, after buying a bag and testing it by TOTAL emersion in a river in winter and then crawling into it.
Wiggys are being sold at 20% discount. The cost went up because of oil prices and then our economy began to go cold.

Decades ago I had a very experienced Sierra climbing & trekking guide teach me that the worst weather to be caught in was "35 degrees and raining". He would rather be in a blizzard at subzero temps than be caught out in the wet, just above freezing.

I've been carrying a minimalist sil-nylon tarp from O-Ware for the last few years, even on dayhikes (and I still carry the plastic bags & AMK bivy). I had it made in blaze orange to serve as a signaling tool as well and it weighs under 1 pound. Combined with my trekking poles and some cordage it is very versatile, either alone or integrated into a bushcraft-style shelter.

I carry a heatsheet too, but keep the bivy in my jeep. I considered carrying the bivy, but figured that, if needed, I could rig a shelter, using the heatsheet itself as a liner, and, with a fire going, likely stay warmer with the reflected heat, than with it wrapped around me.
Now, that being said, I am obviously planning on building a fire; should that not happen, I still have my military poncho for shelter, and can use the heatsheet for warmth. I think though that the bigger issue would be dressing correctly for the weather. Although I enjoy wool, I almost always hike in synthetics. Simply because they dry quicker. I keep my natural materials for my campground activities.
Again, most, if not all of us here, have spent more than a few nights, or weeks, out in the boonies, testing & trying new gear. with the wealth of knowledge all of us bring, it really comes down to what you're comfy carrying. Some prefer to do more with less, some prefer ease of use. These dont always mutually exclude each other; but, with a wealth of knowhow, I am sure some of you could disappear for a week with nothing more than a wool blanket, good knife, and a sharp axe. Me, I like to make some things easy; firestarting, for example. I CAN do it with a bowdrill; havent in probably 15 years, but know I have. Hence, I have firemaking material everywhere in my kits & on my body.
Shelter, for me, is the same; I can build something, or find something, but the convenience of my poncho works well in most situations. Besides, I have spent many, many nights under a poncho; it almost feels nostalgic Of course, that feeling would quickly fade on about day 3 of a real survival situation for me...but, I havent been there yet, and sorta hope not to go there!

Again we come to the point Canoedogs made in the 4th comment back.
At which point does it quit being an emergency kit and become a camping kit?

I differentiate between the 2 quite easily. For me, camping means throwing the cargo rack on my Jeep and loading it down. I've not yet got into backpacking, so I have no experience in that style of camping.

My camping experiences always involve a big tent, EZ-Up canopy, 2 sleeping bags, a propane heater with 20-pound tank, a queen-sized air mattress, full-size pillows and everything else I can think of to make my weekend comfortable. Then again, my campsite is roughly 10 feet from my Jeep, so I don't have to hump all that stuff on my back.

That said, I have been getting tired of carrying so much stuff and am leaning towards paring down what I carry. But, I want to start off with little steps and not just jump off the deep end. I'm waiting for summer to try my hand at camping sans tent, just using an ultralight tarp.

Exactly.

Are people starting to carry a spare sleeping bag????

Being prepared for EVERY possible contingency can get to be a bit ridiculous.

The most basic shelter is a waterproof and windproof barrier. Insulation is nice, but can be compensated for by utilizing an external source of heat such as a fire or chemical heater. For years that bit of kit was a disposable poncho, bit of plastic sheeting, or a mylar space blanket. Now, the AMK Heatsheet is the best minimum bit of shelter kit that is reasonable to carry 100% of the time when off the beaten path.

I've wondered how to always have a sleeping bag with me, given the problem that:
down bags lose 64% of their insulation if kept compressed for 6 months.
synthetic bags are bulky.

I've got (I think) a partial solution. Halve the bulk and weight of a synthetic bag by only only using it as a top. Like some manufacturers do, e.g 'Big Agnes'.

If I get a sleeve for a mat sewn onto the bottom of a sythetic bag (Wiggys come to mind since they are guaranteed to never lose their loft and even the people who find Jerry Wiggy an obnoxious jerk admit he keeps that promise). Wouldn't that mean I could use a bag a lot lighter than the one recomended for the temmperatures I'm sleeping in?).
With the right material I'll also add a waterproof base to the bag :-).

Questions:
This seems too simple. Am I missing something?
Does any other manufacturer guarantee their bags never lose their loft?
QJS

P.S apologies to whoever it was took exception to me asking why he was blaming the USAs problems on a president who'd been in the white house 13 days. He shouldn't have said it in the first place but I shouldn't have risen to the bait either.

Scafool & Canoedogs are right; your emergency kit is just that; for EMERGENCIES. When you start carrying legit shelter gear, ie sleeping bags & full tarps, you are crossing into the realm of backpacking. Now, IMHO, that isnt a bad thing; if you pack for an overnight, even for a day trip, then you're hedging your bets for a worst case scenario. Some people are more comfortable with that, and thats fine. No one here will discourage you from carrying what you want (provided it wont kill you...). For me, just to reiterate, I carry in my pockets a PSK, a small FAK, bandana, and heatsheet. I also carry a multitool and at least one other knife. Around my neck I have a whistle, matchcase w/small compass, tiny flashlight, and a ferro rod, on 8' of paracord. This stuff is with me, at all times. I ALSO carry a camelback MULE, with more stuff in it (pics in the gallery). Its ALL emergency kit; but it is broken down in to worn/carried. If I were hiking on longer trails, I would likely swap to a true daypack; however, I hike in familiar areas, and am comfy with what I carry. I would say the stuff in my pockets/around my neck is EMERGENCY gear; the stuff in the pack is "just in case".

Wiggys lamilite will regain almost full loft within a short time after being removed from compression packing. The website gives exact particulars.
All I know from personal experience is they work.

I wrote to Wiggys and Jerry Wigutow promptly replied that my idea wouldn't work:

it would actually be 'detrimental to the function of my bags'

'If you use a waterproof layer on the bottom of the bag you will get condensation and then water. If cold enough the water will freeze.

'a waterproof material that has the capacity to be vapor permeable [does not] exist.

oh well it seemed a good idea at the time.
QJS

I've never had this problem when using a British Army 58 Pattern Down bag. This has a waterproof base built into the bag. Hmm Sounds like Jerry hasn't heard of Goretex or any of the other waterproof MVP materials that other manufacturers such as PHDesigns can provide as an upgrade to their bags.

http://www.ludlowsurvivors.com/sleepingbag.html

Goretex, in my opinion, has limted uses, at best. First, by the time the air gets to the goretex layer, it has cooled considerably. goretex needs a good temp variation between the inner layer & outer layer to work. Second, by the time it gets to that layer, how much has already condensed on the insulation itself? It doesnt magically pass by the insulation fibers, without condensing, until it reaches the barrier. Goretex is way overhyped, and hasnt proved worth its cost, to me anyway. Not to say I dont own goretex gear; I own alot of it. But, it is more market hype than reality.
Now, that being said, I DO have a goretex bivy. And, it HAS been 100% weather proof for me. It excelled in this area (freezing rain, I was perfectly fine). However, if the bivy bag wasnt free, I likely would have gone with a different bivy. However, I have yet to use it in warmer weather (above freezing), so, I dont know how it would perform there. My experience, and the experience of others I know & respect, is that goretex works outstanding when the temps are at or below freezing: provided you regulate your core temp via zippers, cuffs, etc. For bags, below freezing, they are great as well. Anything for much above freezing, I have other, lighter jackets, that work wonders, at a third the cost, and with minimal venting. For bag protection, I will simply take a tarp. Pertex treatment on my bags work wonderfully, even after a couple years worth of use. Adding goretex to a bag is unecessary weight, and makes the bag less pliable.

I would like to see where you get your information about the
down losing its insulative value. My wife has an inherited
REI down bag that is near 50 years old that is very much
in good shape. Tests have shown that down reaches it peak
insulation value when somewhat compressed in use too.

As far as Wiggy's bags go, we ordered several hundred of his
Ultralight 20 degree bags for Outward Bound. They lost loft
and got cold by the end of the summer season just like the
Slumberjack bags of the same temperature rating. And the
slumberjack bags cost less.

I don't think you're missing anything. I believe that some Ultralight thru hikers use a down quilt type of sleeping arangement to save on weight. Something similar to this.

http://www.nunatakusa.com

As for the loft, I haven't heard of any manufacturer that guarantees their insulation never to lose loft. I've never tried a Wiggys, but if they do perform as well as they claim, it seems like a great idea. I am a little skeptical though since none of the other manufacturers have been able make such a claim. I kinda compare it to those hydrogen generators for cars or miracle fuel saving devices, if it really did perform as good as it claims, you have to wonder why the other companies aren't jumping on it.

My hunting partner has a Wiggy's bivy bag that is insulated
and COATED. And heavy.

I do think one of his synthetic bags would be a good choice
(as would a kelty, campmore, slumberjack etc.) for a truck,
boat, plane kit. I just don't think they are anything special.

clearwater wrote:

>I would like to see where you get your information about the
>down losing its insulative value.

It was a Trail Magazine article (a uk mag)based on experiments they had a university carry out for them.

http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Commun...mp;start-page=0

see Graham Thompsons reply to a query on 14 August 2007 10:12

QJS

I don't see the results here, only the mention.

Here is a thread on another board about compression of down.
Optimal insulation comes from compressing down 2 and 1/2 times.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/...&startat=20

Most good down bags will be supplied with a much larger cotton bag for storage, so that the down is not stored compressed.

The best down bags will be half the weight of the best synthetic bags. The only downsides to down is you have to ensure that the down bag does not get damp or wet as this will lose the downs ability to loft properly and the ability to keep the sleeping bag clean. Sythentic bags can be regularly washed in a washing machine unlike down bags so a liner for a down bag is a good idea. A Pertex or Silk liner is recommended.

Down will also last considerable longer than any synthetic bag in keeping its lofting properties for much longer periods of time. Its probably good practice to keep any sleeping bag whether synthetic or down dry. Sleeping in a wet bag, whether down or synthetic is pretty horrible. If using a bivvi bag then it's probably not a good idea to use a down bag with a non MVP material. This also applies to the sythetic bag also to a slightly lesser extent.

A good down bag also has that comfortable cosy feeling that is very difficult to achieve with a synthetic bag simply becuase the way the down draps across the body.

Ditto on the storage in a large breathable bag.

I have found that down will withstand considerable more
washings than synthetics. Just one trip through a hot dryer
will destroy the loft of synthetics (having worked where we
had to launder dozens of client/student bags after each outing). While I have washed down coats and sleeping bags
dozens of times with no obvious harm.

The danger with washing down is the stitching and baffles
inside can be damaged by the heavy clumps of down tumbling
around inside the washing machine, or being torn if handled
too roughly.

The synthetics dry much faster, the key in cleaning
is to avoid heat. Cold wash, hang dry.

Geez, that sounds nicer than the house I'm renting right now!

Why is it if I'm not semi-cold, dirty, and cooking over a tiny fire, then it's not "camping" in my mind? (Yeah, I'm biased, sue me! LOL)

Yeah, when I'm camping with my Jeep at the offroad park, I've typically brought a LOT with me. I've even hauled my 4-burner gas grill out there before, along with 6 t-bone steaks, hamburgers, Dale's marinade, a half-gallon of Captain Morgan's and a case or two of cokes.

Once it gets warmer out, I'm going to start paring it down a lot. Tarp instead of a tent, pad instead of a queen-sized air mattress, small camp stove, etc. I want to spend a lot more time actually enjoying camping IN the outdoors and less hiding FROM the outdoors with all that junk.

Please note that this post was deleted in error. I apologize to Adrian and have unbanned his account. By way of explanation, we have had a problem with people copying articles from other sites and posting on ETS. We also have a major problem with people plagerising from ETS and have had to initiate legal action in a number of cases. So, the words "plagerism" in a moderator notification are a huge red flag. Add to that the fact
that it was only his second post on ETS, a clasic Spammer or Troll profile, and it raised even more flags I should have spent more time investigating, for which I apologize. I didn't make the connection with his between his screen name and his Web site, my only poor excuse being that I was running ragged on only a couple hours sleep at the time.

Having said all that, as a general comment for all reading this, re-posting all or most of an entire article is usually not a good idea, even if it is your own work. Better is to provide a short summary and a link.

Here's some advice from western mountaineering on returning a down bag to original loft. Down bags can actually take quite an abuse they may need washed occasionally to restore the loft if you have very oily skin and don't wear a t shirt or what have you to keep the oil out of the bags. I have 2 down bags from western mountaineering and 1 synthetic bag from North Face and I never use the synthetic bag any more due to the warmth, weight and durability of the down bag that I have. The down bags I have should last me a lifetime if cared for and they are so comfortable to sleep in compared to my North face. I try to always carry my bag everywhere I go and is worth the weight.

Also listen to this pod cast, he goes into great detail of how to bring the loft of the down bag back to factory loft, it's toward the end of the interview under maintenance of the bag.

Western Mountaineering Podcast Interview
Robert Butler speaks with Gary Schaezlein, owner and co-founder of Western Mountaineering

Pod Cast

----------------------------------------------------
Care of Down Link

You can protect the inside of the bag from sweat and body oils by wearing a tee shirt, shorts and socks. This will do the same as sheets on a bed.

When you store your bag put it into a large breathable storage sack. Do not leave it stuffed in its stuff sack or in a plastic bag for long periods of time. Air dry your bag in the sun or in a tumble dryer before storing it.

At some point you'll need to clean your bag. Don't let this frighten you! The best way is to hand wash it in a bath tub or you can use a front loading washing machine. Never use a top loading or agitator machine as this can damage the baffle construction. Only use a soap especially prepared for down products. Dry cleaning is not recommended since the solvents can strip away natural oils contained in the down.

When you hand wash, fill the tub with warm water, add down soap and put the bag in the tub. A tip here is to keep your bag in its stuff sack and put the whole thing underwater. That way air has already been forced out of the bag and you won't have to fight air filled baffles floating to the surface. A Gore Windstopper bag should first be turned inside out before being put into the tub. Carefully pull the bag from its stuff sack and gently knead the soapy water through the bag.

It may be necessary to change the soapy water more than once, but don't over do it. When you are satisfied that your bag is clean be prepared to rinse it with clear water several times. It is important that all of the soap is removed from the down before it is dried. If in doubt rinse again; five or more rinses are not uncommon. Do not wring water from your sleeping bag, instead drain the tub and then roll the bag up tightly and carefully to remove all of the water. Use both hands (and caution) when picking the sleeping bag up, as it may be heavy from any water still trapped inside the baffle chambers. A washing machine that will allow you to select additional spin cycles will remove more water and save dryer time. Find a large dryer with good heat control, and set to low heat. Be sure there are no nicks, burrs, or other sharp items inside the dryer that may damage the shell fabric on your bag. Feel around inside the dryer with your hand to be certain. Once you begin drying, watch for hot spots on the dryer drum that could melt the nylon shell. If in doubt use the no heat setting. A couple of clean tennis balls tossed in with the bag will help break up clumps of down and give you something to look at. Be careful! Don't just tumble your bag till it feels dry, that may not be enough. Carefully feel the down insulation. If you still feel lumps, no matter how small, then your down is still wet! Break a twenty and add more quarters. It may take two or more hours depending on your bag, but you will have a clean sleeping bag back to its original loft.

Relofting your down sleeping bag before a trip is a good idea and can easily be done at home. Place your bag in a tumble dryer and set it to low heat. This will allow the down clusters to open fully. Always check the inside of your dryer for hot spots that can melt the nylon shell.

Water Management
The fear of a wet bag is the most cited reason for people to avoid down. This is a mistake. Any bag that is wet is miserable to sleep in and that is why it's so important to keep your gear dry. You'll find it's a skill easier to learn than map reading. Consider all the avenues available to keep your bag dry, like tents, bivys, and proper camp placement. Then consider the number of times your sleeping bag has gotten wet to the extent that it could not be used. Catastrophic wetting is extremely rare and is an indicator of other problems. You may find that you have indeed mastered the skill of staying dry. All shell fabrics used by Western Mountaineering are treated with a surface Durable Water Repellent finish (DWR) with an 80/20 rating. This is more than sufficient to shrug off dew and condensation. And, DWR's can be easily reapplied as time wears them thin.

If anyone wishes to assign ignorance of insulation to Jerry of Wiggy's, kindly do yourself the favour of actually reading his in depth articles.
Jerry is (in)famous for his combative nature.Even our own Doug got a withering reply to our annual April Fool's column. I think a good portion is the nasty bear baiting of an industry that ill appreciates anyone pointing out 'the emperor has no insulation!'
People, companies sell STUFF. Some STUFF is just STUFF, and often more properly something you spread on a newly seeded lawn from 20 lb sacks.
I am always told anecdotaly of Wiggy bags that lose loft and 'go flat.'
Well, mine did. I actually had to WASH IT per instructions. And wouldn't you know it, when all else fails reading instructions often fixes a problem.
The bags are garanteed. I wish somebody would produce a bag to Jerry so he can see what is happening rather than join in the widow weeds insulated Fates intent on snipping his life thread short.
Yes, Wiggys are bulky, and heavy. So are most bags of any value. If you can't handle that sad fact of life body bags are relatively lightwieght and roll up nicely.

I used down back in the 1970s and 80s.
The problem with down is it is very slow and hard to dry out.
I would never on good conscience recommend a down baq for emergency or expedition use.
I am willing to accept the trade offs and benefits of good synthetic bags.

(But I still love my down parka for -40 weather)

"He would rather be in a blizzard at subzero temps than be caught out in the wet, just above freezing."

Heed the man.
And tell him to stay out of the UK.
Because those are normal winter conditions for us.