Strongest production folder

Ok, there's so much talk about knives on these boards but I've been meaning to ask a somewhat specific question - what is the strongest folding knife available off the shelf (no one-of-a-kind custom knives, please) that you have ever handled personally?

Strongest in this case is defined primarily as having a safe, solid lock - something that comes close to a fixed blade knife, even in terms of lateral strength (eg. prying) where folders are usually the weakest.

The reason I'm asking is that a lot of folders are marketed as super strong these days but IMHO very few could come close to a fixed blade at the end of the day. So I wonder what combination of lock and blade design is the strongest in your experience.

The CRKT models that include the AutoLAWKS system have to be close, in the sense that there is a lock and then a lock that locks the lock. In that case, it is very difficult to force the lock. That said, I know that some of their Chinese-made models feel weaker to me than the Taiwanese versions.
The CRKT M16-13Z made in Taiwan that I own would stand up to anything that a fixed blade knife would, I believe.

"something that comes close to a fixed blade knife, even in terms of lateral strength (eg. prying) ", "off the shelf"? None.

Even a very strong semi custom like a Chris Reeve Sebenza is going to loosen eventually with lateral prying. That is something some fixed blades do not do well.

Take prying out of the equation and I'd go with a Sebenza's framelock or an axis lock such as that on The RSK Mk1 and many other Benchmade knives. It's a very strong lock.

Benchmade 520 is mighty strong with the axis lock, but you pay for it with the weight of the handles.

I'll stick with my Barry Wood Folder, As far as I know the've never had a failure causing them the close up on fingers

Ka-Bar's got some pretty tough folders. I own a Ka-Bar Mule, and I reviewed it on this forum some time ago. It is one tough folder, and the Dozier family are also pretty tough folders from Ka-Bar. I abused mine pretty rigorously when I got it, and the lock held firm. For the money, it is a good investment.

Don't own it, but the EXTREMA RATIO RAO is mighty tough

http://www.extremaratioknivesdivision.eu/inglese/military/rao.htm
http://www.knifetests.com/erraophotos.html
http://www.knifetests.com/erraotest.html

mighty

Zero Tolerance folders are VERY solid and I have recently picked up 2 folders from 5.11 Tactical that are VERY heavy duty.

Thanks for the feedback! Having made several knives myself I'm well aware that every folder has a number of structural limtiations. Nonetheless, it's interesting to compare some of the newer "heavy duty" folders out there to see if they can live up to the hype.

Right now the verdict seems to be that the AXIS lock is pretty solid, I'm sure the AutoLAWKS is an advantage as well. However, I wonder if the lock design per se is as important as the actual implementation. Seeing that the Kabar Mule is "just" a lockback but apparently still a very good performer.

BTW, I know a guy who bought an Extrema Ratio folder. Turned out the knife was built like a tank. So overbuilt in fact that it was pretty much useless as a cutter. Something along the lines of a sharpened folding crowbar, not necessarily the best of both worlds.

I've always hear that lockbacks are the strongest "lock." That being said, my Cold Steel has some pretty good lateral play. The AXIS lock by benchmade, as are the AutoLAWKS, are supposed to be very strong.

you might look at the new cold steel pocket bushman. getting lots of good reviews.

This "lock" looks like it cannot fail - http://www.coldsteel.com/blackrockhunter.html

I suspect frame locks are probably a leading contender for strongest folder.

That said, strength is good, but pursuit of strength is a good way to lose perspective.

I love my titanium frame lock Chris Reeve Sebenza. But after a while, I realized that while the frame lock is an elegant design, very strong and simple, it is really difficult to operate with one hand, esp. off-handed.

It seems in a survival situation, you should be able to use your knife one handed, and likely off-handed in case of an injury.

So, my Sebbie is now a backup and my Ritter RSK is now my primary EDC knife.

Good one-handed usability, ambi-use, and very strong.

-john


Edit: For prying you'd probably want a flat ground. The popular hollow grind is going to cut better, but more likely to break.

Well, the 'lock' may not, but the screws sure could.

-john

Didn't mean to imply otherwise. Just "cannot fail" is perhaps a bit optimistic.

-john

Yes, I am aware of that. No substitute for fixedblade.

Pocket Bushman seems to be interesting knife but the edges of the handle look too sharp. I can imagine it´s very uncomfortable to do something with it for a long time.

Great, if you eventually decide to get it, I will be looking forward to read your experience.

IIRC the Pocket Bushman uses Krupp 4116 steel. I have a Canadian Belt Knife with the same stuff. It's rubbish steel IMO. I use it as a kitchen knife. Otherwise, buy something else.

My 2-cents' worth.

Back when I carried it daily, my old Buck Folding Hunter (aka 110) took a lot of abuse, and is still as tight as it was brand new...

Aha, thanks for info.

Here is one of the new 5.11 Tactical knives I have been carrying.

The "First Responder" spearpoint model.

BLADE: 3 7/16th inches long s30v stainless and G-10 scales over full steel liners that are just under 1/8th inch thick.
(shaves hair even in the serrated part)



The blade is just under 3/16th inches THICK!



5.11 Tactical refers to it as a framelock, but some quibble with that since the lock is under the scale, but with a liner lock that thick, it comes close!



The lock is dead solid, with no trace of play and hasn't budged under testing.

On the end is a "striker plate", that I guess could be used for blunt non-lethal impact, or as a glass breaker.



This is one heavy duty folder!

How about less lethal? At least less lethal than the blade end. You bring that down on someone's skull and it might well be lethal.

Yep, that's a better term. I was more thinking of pressure point style stuff, but your right, a shot to the skull with that thing could seriously ruin someones day.

Here is another 5.11 Tactical I have, it's a smaller (3 inch blade) lockback called the "Investigator" with 154CM steel.

Smaller and a bit easier to EDC, but very strongly built.

I just wish those 5.11 knives came with plain edges instead of combo's...

A frame lock, by design, would be one of the most secure locks out there. The lockbar is further stabilized by gripping and applying pressure to the handle while cutting - no other lock has that capability.

Benchmade's Axis Lock and Spyderco's Compression Lock are both very strong, and extremely reliable.

You should be able to trust any lock type as long as you're buying from a quality manufacturer (and using the knife within it's parameters).

+1 These knives are designed by Steve Tarani, and other than Karambits, I don't think I have seen one that he designed that wasn't a combo edge.

In the State of Texas, you will not believe the fine for that knife. It would be considered a butterfly knife. Class B Misdemeanor if I remember correctly.

I think that starts at $500.00 and a short stay in the slant bar motel.

Most likely it will be strider gb... It is a big knife and after opening it up it looks like a pretty decent sized fixed blade. Solid lockup, no bs knife. Used it as a pry bar, anchors, hammer anything... Only drawback? Expensive.

Your definition includes two separate things and they are not necessarily related.

Lock strength is one thing, the "safe, solid lock" part We generally use that term to denote resistance to the lock unlatching or failing when in normal use and perhaps when abused. After all, that's the whole point of having a locking blade. Of course, any lock will eventually fail and all have various failure modes. Like all things in knife design, they represent a compromise. Properly designed, and all other things being equal, there's little question that a butterfly (balisong) style design is the inherently strongest folding blade design. It has other issues that make it less than desirable in many cases, including legal concerns in some areas.

Strength while prying is a different thing entirely and not necessarily related to lock strength. This is where thicker blade steel, and the type and treatment of the steel, along with perhaps heavier and perhaps stiffer frame pieces and the pivot design all have much more influence.

That added prying strength will necessarily work against other useful attributes, such as slicing capability, what most use a knife for primarily. Thicker either requires use of a hollow grind to gain back some slicing ease or you are stuck with a geometry that is not optimized for slicing and cutting.

Just a few thoughts on the subject.

"...It would be considered a butterfly knife..."

Maybe, maybe not. If it takes both hands and four movements to open the silly looking thing, it might slide by...


"...Second, the Black Rock Hunter requires the use of both hands to make the four distinct movements required to rotate both handles 180 degrees from closed to open. The Black Rock Hunter is not a butterfly knife, gravity knife, flick knife or switchblade. It can’t be opened by a wrist snap, or any single-handed opening technique. It offers a significant margin of safety and, because of the way it’s opened, it’s legal to possess in most countries, states or jurisdictions that unreasonably ban the sale of even the most innocent one-handed openers..."

Design wise, I think the strongest folder design I've seen is the Scott Cook Lochsa. Very similar to the Sebenza design, but the entire handle is one piece of milled titanium. That means there is really only one screw/bolt used in the entire assembly; at the pivot. Therefore, it can be made extremely strong just by using more metal, since there is very little to fail.

As far as the actual strongest production folding knife, I have no idea, as there have been a lot of pretty amazing designs both past and present. However, I will say that if I was looking for a hard use knife it would be a fixed blade, especially a Busse/Swamp Rat/Scrap Yard fixed blade. A folder is always a compromise of strength compared to a fixed blade.

I don't know.

Most reputable manufacturers produce folding knives that are entirely strong enough for just about any practical field use. I wouldn't worry about it. If you are stressing a knife so hard that your in danger of breaking it your using it wrong. You need to forget about trying to use a knife and invest in a splitting froe or crowbar.

" May auld acquaintances be forgot..."
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I have two Cold Steel Pocket Bushmans. One in each emergency kit. I like it. It is a crude, inexpensive knife, but if I ever need it, it will work.

The lock is bomb proof. I think the only way to get the lock to fail would be for the pivot bolt to separate from the handle. It is damned hard to unlock even when you want to.

The handle is comfortable enough to use. The edges are round enough. If I were in a situation where I was using it heavily and wasn't wearing gloves, I can imagine wrapping the handle with cord or tape and treating it like a fixed blade. The way it locks up that's not unreasonable.

I haven't done any prying with one, but have batoned some fire wood. No problems.

It's an inexpensive knife. The blade is not made of super steel. It doesn't take or hold a razor edge, but it does the job. No chips in my use. There's a Sterling knife sharpener in each emergency kit as well. I'd never touch that thing to a good knife, but it sharpens the Pocket Bushman just fine.

It's half the size of an equivalent fixed blade and has proved tough enough to do what I want it to do. It's inexpensive enough that stuffing it in the emergency kit where it may never be used again doesn't seem a waste. As a folder it is less intimidating to LEOs. It is not a tactical-looking knife; actually it looks like an Opinel. Aside from the sheer size--it's a big damn knife--it is not very threatening looking, which is a good thing IMHO.

It is a good, inexpensive alternative to a medium fixed blade for an emergency kit. I can imagine some rough use situations where it would be appropriate for regular use, but not for me. My EDC is a Bradley Alias 2 which is pretty much at the opposite end of the folder spectrum.

And with surgical precision. What knife did you use?;-)

Welcome Grahund, I take it you have one or more of the greatest dogs in the entire world living at your house?

JohnE

Welcome Newguy!!!

Welcome. It does sound like the 40MPH couch potato dog doesn't it.

Do you or anyone else have any idea what kind of steel this knife uses? I like it's cheap price and solid construction, but I hate, hate, hate when a steel is labeled with nothing more than 'stainless' or '420 series stainless'.

In this case it is labeled 420 series. Anyone know if that is A, B or C? If C I would consider one, but otherwise not.

The Pocket Bushman has only been used for testing to verify its utility. Once I was satisfied they weren't junk I put them in the emergency kits. If I need surgical precision in an emergency and don't have my EDC, I have the scalpel in the AMK PSK.

And yes, I have one of the greatest dogs ever lying on the floor next to me. He's a sable working line GSD, called a "gray dog" in Germany.

Thanks for the welcome, OBG. (I've been lurking and leaning the lingo.)

Woops, I assumed Greyhound. As I type my to GSD's are trying to get in my lap. I cannotseem to explain to them they are not lap dogs.

Ah well, thought we had another greyhound aficionado on the forums, welcome anyway, and your dog as well!

Any dog can be a lap dog, just ask them...;^)

JohnE

The blade ofthe Pocket Bushman is made of Thyssen Krup 4116. It has been compared to 420HC among others. One poster on blade forum said this, "1.4116 was used by Puma for stainless knives including stainless white hunter. medium carb, quite a lot vanadium and Cr. Hardens at 55-57 HRC It lies somewhere between 440B and 440C." I'm not a steel junky, so I have no opinion. It is cheap, tough, takes and holds enough of an edge to do real work. The Sterling can restore a working edge quickly. It meets the need that I purchased it for. Your mileage may vary.

Thanks for the info, Grahund. It is curious t me that the steel would be labeled 420 series if it is actually TK4116, but what do I know? (not much).

In the 'cheap' category I like and own the Dozier Ka-Bar Hunter folder. It uses Aus-8 steel which is very respectable for the price ($20) and compares to 440B stainless. (rather than the lower carbon 420 series).

Not knocking anyone's choice of knife, just that I am a bit of a geek and shop mainly for metal(steel) when pricing knives. The worst handle can be compensated for with gloves, but an inferior metal simply fails in the task at hand. Hard to sharpen or dulls when looked at wrong. Good steel is a good thing.

The high quality/low cost of the Kabar dozier hunter has been mentioned by several people - including me - in the last few months on this forum. i got mine for $15 on a special amazon.com deal a couple of years ago. I think it's as good as spydercos at two or three times the cost.

We buy them now and give them as gifts.

According to the Cold Steel site, the blade is 4116 and the handle is "420 series". I doubt that it matters much exactly which 420 is used in the handle.

The Pocket Bushman has a 4 1/2" blade compared to the 3" blade on the Dozier Ka-Bar Hunter. Which is preferable depends on what you want to do.

Agreed 100%. What is 'preferable' is largely a matter of individual taste/preferences. I am not going to slam another person's blade.

Having said that there is some real crap out there and sticking with good steels and manufacturers/retailers with a well deserved reputation makes sense. Just last night I put a cheap chinese knock off of a swiss army knife to use and the main blade snapped backward toward me. It was 'locked' in place only by the cheap plastic body of the tool. Fortunately it was a gift and not something I actually spent money on.

The blade was marked (Stainless China). Now, as far as I know there is no stainless steel named 'China'. To me the label just means it is worth less than free because it will break when you need it. Many other steels we can spec out and use and have opinions on, but they are all more or less serviceable.

Personally I would rather get a $20 knife whose steel I was familiar with, but if it works for you then it works for you. No harm in that.