Nother Q about survival knife

I am looking for a "sharpened prybar" for utility /survival

The knife should be a bit thick and have a tanto head with a FULL straigh blade and a FULL saw on the other side.

I need it for times of trouble, to dig, cut limbs and other chores. If it is not great for skinning a small rabbit, well, I am not that good at butchering anyway.

Have you seen anthing like this ?

Jungle Primitive?

US Navy MK3

You can find these military surplus knives for around $60 had mine for years, managed to chip the tip a little when I hit a rock, but it is really thick & heavy. The top has of the handle has thick chunk of metal to hammer on/with. Sorry to say that I haven't used the saw for much, I carry a pocket chain saw blade for that. Hard for the novice (ME) to sharpen.

Look at TOPS knives. They have more than a few that will fit your bill.

-Bill Liptak

Unless you have some very specific task in mind I daresay you will be disappointed with any knife like that. IMHO a knife should first and foremost be good at cutting. A beefy blade with a thick profile just plain sucks at that.

Second, you can put mean looking teeth on the back but if the blade is too short and thick (any kind of knife blade is generally too thick for a saw, let alone the "sharpened prybar" type) you will end up with a miserable saw.

Third, no knife is much good as a shovel. If you attempt to do any serious digging you will quickly ruin the edge, possibly snap the point. Plus it will take you a while to dig a hole of any size, many times slower than even a small shovel.

So to make a long story short, the big Rambo sharpened crowbar may look macho but in real life it tends to be useless.

For the same amount of money you could get a good small knife, maybe a Mora, then a good folding saw and possibly an axe. Or if you really intend to do much digging, the Cold Steel shovel, which doubles as a pretty good hatchet. Alternatively you could get a sawback machete. Still too thick for a good saw but way better than the Rambo crap.

I don' really like the concept, but to each his own. I guess that you could get yourself an Ontario SP8 and reshape the tip into a tanto...

In all my perusals, I've yet to see a tanto with a serrated spine. Could be there's one out there, but I've covered a heckuva lot of knife sites. Maybe there's a niche yet to be filled. Hmmm........

I agree with OldBaldGuy try this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ONTARIO-SP8-MACHETE-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks guys

I don't need the knife for Rambooing purposes, or even for routine chores. I just need it for a backup to rely on in case of bad times. It will be sitting in the BOB.

I do have a foldable shovel in each car, a small knife or two. But emergencies being as unexpected as they are, we don't know what kind of scenario we may find ourselves in. So a multi-purpose "tool" has its appeal.

As a matter of fact, I wanted something that doesn't cry KNIFE !! But rather it should look more like a tool that I can even leave in the trunk of my car and don't worry much about the law.

Having a number of specialized tools ( saw, hatchet, knife ) is the best thing, except that in case I had to abandon the car, a BOB will be "nine-month-pregnant" if I carried all of them plus my other junk. Add to that the political correctness that we have to adhere to in certain cases. A bulging BOB with shovel, an axe ..etc. is a welcome sight in an emergency but before an emegency you will only hear

( shovel, my God ? )
( an AXE , dear Lord ??? )

A knife, even a Rambo knife can hidden in the folds of your clothes inside a BOB if your concern is merely nosy people and not the law.

So, what I am looking for a survival TOOL with straight edge and serrated edge. A tanto - type head is stronger in case of digging or breaking through material, and is also, somthing to dilute the "knifeness" of a knife. It starts to look like a big sharpened chisel.

If there is something like that which is NOT a knife, I will be interested to see it. The less "knifey" it is, the better.

http://www.countycomm.com/eodrtool.htm

Google Duluth Trading Co. Bamboo knife, does cry knife but not Rambo. This companies knives draw about as much attention as a screw driver.

[img]http://www.duluthtrading.com/services/image.aspx?path=/media/images/products/69186.jpg&width=250[/img]
Bamboo Knife

[img]http://www.duluthtrading.com/services/image.aspx?path=/media/images/products/69137.jpg&width=500[/img]
Hack knife

Using a batoning method you could hack through anything with these. If not pull the pocket chain saw off your belt.

Consider a Gerber LMF II.

Woodsman's pal?

Various gardening and tool catalogs carry the japanese gardening tool. It's a stout trowel with spear point, one side serrated. The full tang extends @ 50% into a simple wood slab handle.The thing is made of a simple carbon steel, easy to sharpen.It cuts, digs, stabs and saws roots very well and is diret cheap.

Are you using it as a prop in a movie???

Have you thought about buying an axe and duct taping a bow saw to it?

Great ideas.
I may end up buying more than one item.

Guess what I have found yesterday in a garage sale !

Its a FIXED knife with
a FULL straight edge,
FULL serrated edge, and
a FULL length saw !
Plus mini pry bar, and can opener ..etc.

Now did I count things correctly ?
Three full lengths of blades in one fixed knife ?
Yes.

It looks like any fixed knife (4-5 inches) with a handle. The handle splits in two halves and they rotate 180 degrees to cover either the tang or fixed blade.

The tang is not the normal rectangular piece of metal found in other knives. Rather, it is a blade with one side serrated and the other has saw teeth. The tip is pry-bar-shaped with a can opener on the side.

So, you rotate the handle twin halves and they cover the knife blade. Then what you get is a "tool" that doesnt look much like a knife but a straight one-piece "multi-tool". When you rotate the half handles back to cover the multi-tool, this thing becomes just like any other fixed blade knife.

I'll try to post a picture.

Its made of stanless steel. And only says (Stainless - USA) Nothing else. I am not worried much about losing the edge and how hard it is to sharpen, since I will only use it occasionally and save it for a last resort asset in the BOB.

The handle is OK, but I'll try to find some sort of sleeve to contain its two halves ( they have a lock to keep them together, but still). Also, I have to find a sheath for this thing.

Having found this thing does NOT mean I have stopped searching.
I'll still appreciate more suggestions. I really really liked a number of them especially the ones with "non-knife" concept.

Thank you again folks.

That EOD tool is pretty slick and cheap.

What you described reminds me of two knives. First, the Sog Revolver:



as well as the Pacific Cutlery 983:



Sounds interesting.

If you think about this however... Don't you think you'd want the best tool available in a real emergency?

I don't know about everybody else but I always pick quality, time proven gear for backup. A lot of folks believe a knife that doesn't hold an edge or is difficult to sharpen is perfectly ok for their BOB. As long as your backup gear is stowed away and never used it doesn't matter. But should you really find yourself in a bad spot all the details that don't seem important right now will become critical. And if your gear doesn't perform well it might make the difference between life and death. That's why skimping on your backup systems is a bad idea.

BTW, no knife with a revolving or somehow interchangeable blade works well for prying or digging in my experience. But the Japanese gardening tool is a good idea. So is a Woodman's pal. A small axe could be used for almost all the tasks you have in mind and it would be excellent at some of them at least. I don't think any of those options would look any more out of place in the back of a car than a big, exotic looking knife but then again, I understand your personal situation could be different. Best of luck and stay safe!

They come in $20-40 range (also in stainless steel), and are called Hori-Hori (Literal Japanese translation “dig dig”)

http://www.nisaku.co.jp/njc/garden/knife/0650-LeisureKnifeN/0650.html





And here's the big brother, YAMA-KATANA ((n) woodman's hatchet)






Sure looks tempting

I gave my wife a stainless hori-hori some years ago. Very strong as a digging tool in the garden, and holds a good edge. But I never use it. It's too thick to be a really good knife and not long enough for serious digging or prying (a two-handed task IMO).

As an all-around no-nonsense digging/cutting/general abuse tool, my Cold Steel shovels (I now have three) will do ten times more real work. They're compact enough for a daypack, and they're discreet because they don't look like a weapon.

My two cents' worth.

A decade ago I found this nifty little kit shovel. The metal handle was pretty solid and as ergonomic as you could expect, with a rubber grip and all, but the working end had a yoke that allowed you to change out the shovel for a pick, or a saw, or a hatchet. It all packed into a cordura bag, and snuggled nicely into a BOB. Considering the multi-task nature of the package, I found it quite functional for it's scale. Things such as these are always a compromise from having a tool dedicated to a specific task, but this was perhaps one of the more functional compromises I've seen in a while. Even a Leatherman Wave is a compromise, if you think about it.

benjammin:
what you are describing is a tool that was carried in a U.S. Air Force survival kit, I have two of them somewhere still in there military case, you can sometimes find them on e-bay, and now a company (probably China ) makes one for sale here in the U.S.

Could be. It was fairly inexpensive at the time IIRC.

What about a Scuba knife? I have one and it is exactly as you describe.

benjammin:
did it look like this??

This "thing" I bought is not a scuba knife because the handle is metal and covered with two wooden slabs. It will not survive seawater I guess. But if you think about it, the utlity side of this thing can be very useful for a fisherman or sailor. I didnt mention that it has three nut holes in it. So, it would be helpful in boat engine maintenance for example.

In the process of finding a suitable survival knife or "survival thing", I thought about scuba knives. There are a few good ones that come with a straight edge on one side and a serrated edge on the other and a metal butt for pounding/hammering. Some have a chisel tip which is good for prying. Pretty versatile, but I was still looking for something more versatile, and bigger if possible. If a spouse or friend was trapped in a car wreck for example, a diver knife is too short to be used for prying doors open.

Even a Leatherman Wave is a compromise, if you think about it.


Off course.

This thread isnt about replacing 20 tools with one "super tool" . Rather it is about a principle that all prepared minded folks know about ( the mult-layer system ).

When you have a tiny PSK in your pocket, it doesnt mean you throw the BOB from your tuck. It just adds another layer of pretection in case emegencies strip you from the better and more effiecient options.

So, I have a few knives, shovels ..etc. and the house burns or I bug out, then the car is wrecked or trapped in a traffic jam ..etc. and you find your self without your huge pantry and without the car collection of survival equipment. In such case, you dont have the luxury of having 10 dedicated tools, it one or two VETSATILE tools that can help you solve as many problems as possible.

It is like the other threads that ask ( If you had to choose only one tool or one knife, what would it be ? ) but I guess I made the thread a bit less focused LOL.

I like the machete ideas and also the small shove kit.
The shovel kit is more versatile, but a machete can be trusted with prying more than the shovel kit. I will see if both can be squeezed in one small package.

Maybe if I squeeze something like this with a shovel kit

During the search for a better tool I found a shovel kit that has a few essentials inside the mini-shovel handle. I thought about it and it seems like a good idea.

Many of us have condemened the knives with hollow handle because it weakens the knife. However, in case of a shovel the handle is already made of heaviy metal pipe to withstand the job it is intended to do. In such a case, it will not be a bad idea if a few plastic tubes or capsules are inserted with a few items inside, from whistle to matches ..etc.


For those interested in the concept you can see this mini-shovel with kit inside the handle.
You can steal the idea and develop it in one of your better shovels.

But the thread is really about the one tool you want to keep with you as a last resort when you lose everything else.

A funny thought crossed my mind when seeing the pictures of this Japanese gardening tool.

Can you imagine carrying it with you and telling airport security that it is NOT a knife, and that is only a "gardening tool" LOL.

A beautiful "knife" indeed.

Yep Big Al, pretty much that is the kit, except I don't see the pick/prying tip. Yes, multi-taskers and compromises make up a lot of the gear we are interested in. That's okay, I just try to find the best bang for my buck. I love my Leatherman Wave, it is the tool I used more than all the others I own combined. Compromise or not, it gets the job done.

I have a question about two survival knives.

First the pilot survival knife



Why is it not mentioned often in discussions like this one ?

While I am not interested in it for the purpose stated in THIS thread , it seems to me like a very verstaile knife, with saw teeth on the back, and two holes for making a spear , and the butt can be used for hammering.

It looks like a great design in my opinion.
Even the price isn't that much
Do you see anything wrong with it ?


OK, the other knife is the tracker.



I keep wondering

Why the straiught edge is divided in two parts ?
Also, why the saw edge is only half of the blade length ?

The USAF survival knife is not bad, but it is a bit overbuilt IMHO. In the sense of the blade being slightly too thick for optimal cutting performance.

The Ontario Spec Plus version is worse still. I bought one online a while ago - sure looked nice but the blade is even thicker than the original USAF issue. Even with heavy grinding I was not able to reduce the blade profile to an acceptable level so the knife was pretty much useless as a cutting tool. It was outperformed many, many times by a cheap Mora and even by the genuine KABAR. Which, while fairly strong, is still not too thick for serious cutting.

The sawback is not really a saw. IIRC it was designed to saw through plexiglas. Whether that works I can't say because I've never tried. On wood it's pretty much useless except for making shallow grooves (might be useful at making traps or snares, but that's about it in a survival situation). On metal it's worse than useless. Simply put, the blade is way too thick for a saw so a real folding saw would do a far better job.

IMHO a sawback has no place on a knife but then again, your mileage may vary.

Well it doesn't vary by that much .

Thanks Tom I have learnt something.

Now I know why not so many people talk about it. And also now I am reconsidering the saw back idea as a whole. There are a number of small folding saws in the market that I think will not take much BOB space beside the knife.

Any comments on the second knife (the Tracker) and why it is designed this way ? Why the blade is divided in two halves like this ? And is the saw back of the Tracker any good ?

The second blade seems like an attempt to combine a skinner style point with a draw type or splitting edge closer in. IMHO, the knife is too much a compromise and not enough purpose. Maybe a good theory that just doesn't work in practice. Not sure I would find much use for it.

For a saw, I prefer a chain saw; the kind that fit in a can about the size of a snuff tin and is drawn back and forth using your hands, or a makeshift frame. Small enough to EDC if you want, but very functional, at least for cutting something softer than steel.

Yeah, just what Benjammin said. With such basic tools as knives there is a simple rule to follow - if the design is too exotic or unusual it most likely won't work. People have been using knives since the dawn of time and have figured out long ago what works and what doesn't. Look at Bowies or Scandinavian knives - their shape hasn't really changed a bit in the past 1000 years. Which speaks volumes.

For hard use I would always pick a more or less traditional knife. Modern materials are great and all the extra stuff such as Kydex sheaths, pocket clips, the Wave hook etc. may be great add-ons but the blade itself shouldn't look like it came out of a Star Wars movie IMHO.

( and it's even got the hollow handle for whatever you can fit it in )

I have seen some of those mini shovel/pick/ wahtever with hollow handle. As everyone said, these things are too much of a compromise. The shovel was not really good for much , the saw is for decoration more than real use, the pick will break the first time I use it for prying, and the hollow handle can take a few matches, and maybe a whistle, but no knife of any size.

Now have to re-engineer the last resort "multi-tool". That means to store several tools in a ziploc bag at the bottom of my BOB.
The idea is to keep it as light as possible, as VERSATILE as possible.


How is this combination ?

A simple knife like a Mora or equivalent,
A 6 inch folding saw,
and an SP8 machete

BTW, if a tool has "saw teeth" on the back is that BAD and should I definitely shift to straight back. Or is a saw teeth back only "useless" . I mean will it hurt in any way to have the saw teeth even I am not going to utilize them ?

The teeth are derfintely BAD if I try to hit the machete or knife with a hammer to chop something., The teeth on the back will be damamged and the hammer head will be damaged too. So, that is one disadvatage

The sawback concept is hampered by useable length and more grevious, thickness of blade. The infamous US survival knife is more chisel than saw. It works very well tearing through thin aluminium and plexiglass.In green wood you can make very precise notches for your paracord binding, if you are concerned with precise notches the other side of the knife can cut in less time and precious energy.

My concern is the structural integrity of a knife with sawteeth. The spine is just what it implies; the backbone and support for the blade. The idea of stock removal along this critical area and then banging away with a billet of wood isn't comforting, exptoc metallurgy or robustness not withstanding.

My first experience with a 'survival knife' was Arctic Survival School in Alaska. My issue knife was being banged on to split wood and in the sub zero cold made a sound no Hollywood sound effects engineer could duplicate. It had snapped @ 1/4" forward of the guard from a saw gullet diagonally down to the edge.

My instructor gave me a disgusted look, I expected my pay docked for the relief of taxpayers and a general courtmartial or something. He merely reached into a flight bag and pulled out a spare Camillus.I had this epiphany he probably wouldn't be around if I really crashed in the arctic circle. Like everyone else, I soon acquired my own personal knife.

A lot of people carry these blades, have squeezed amazing chores from the features ( you can scale fish with those sawbacks,collect lichen and grate wild onions.)

I figured if I needed a saw, a good swedish bowsaw blade in my ruck is easilly carried and a field expedient handle made.

I do have a Chris Reeves Aviator, a gift. I pack it on my rare sailplane and light aircraft adventures. It impresses my airport acquaintances who carry NOTHING.

The one time we did make an emergency lanidng, in a aircraft so slow I almost got out to push it down like a car out of gas, I was all prepared with my PSk and knife, emergency food and water. Southern California lemon orchards are scary places at night; coyotes chasing rabbits, the far off sound of illegal cock fights with people more dangerous than the Bedu in FLIGHT OF THE PHOENIX and skunks everywhere.

This old campesino orchard worker in a beat up truck pulled up and spoiled it all. I was all set to build a lemon treehouse with my knife before nightfall.

There was a useful sawback, once upon a time: swiss sappers bayonet. It had an 18 inch blade and a steel scabbard, and was perched in a place of honor above the knife display in the village army-navy store in 1962. I had saved up the money to buy a mercator folder, and did so but was smitten with the mirror-polished stainless steel blade, double row of offset saw teeth, and elegant wooden grips. The mercator was 2 bucks; the swiss gem was priced at a princely $12.50-In comparioson, mundane M-1 carbine and garand bayonets were available at $5 each, complete with a broken tipped scabbard. When I finally acquired it, I discovered that it would indeed cut wood, but found it burdensome for EDC.

Since there is no ONE knife fit all purposes, I am adopting the concept of survival "multi--tool". I am now looking for a fixed blade sheath that will take two smallish knives ( one straight edge and one serrated)

I never like the partailly serrated knives. If they are small then each section is too small for anything. If the knife is big, well, I may have problems using it in urban environments. And since I am 99% in urban environment, I may not be able to use it at all. Two small fixed knives seem a better way to go for my case.

Have you seen any sheath for two small knives?

BTW,I have seen sheaths holding one big knife and another smaller one. But what I am looking for is a sheath that holds two knives of similar sizes side by side.

"...Have you seen any sheath for two small knives?..."

I would consider contacting one of the many kydex sheath makers and have them whip one up for you...

( or make your own. )

That will be ideal !!

Since my bewildered brain has started wandering in many directions, that will help me design it exactly the way I want it.

Is there a link showing how make them and what materials I need ?

Chisel, I overlooked your initial post regarding the military survival knife and Tracker.

I know a few posters and many people carry the knife. In the interest of giving confidence in what you have, here's a review.

The knife was made by Camilllus and Ontario,now only Ontario, both fine makers. The only difference is a slightly deeper clip and @ 4+ rockwell increase in the Camillus.
There are a few asian knockoffs. These are plain awfull and are readilly I.D.ed by the sheath sans metal tip guard and leather handle of different pattern.

What we have, is a knife of plain vanilla 1095 carbon, rattail tang, stacked leather handle with a hammer butcap and double guard. teh sheath is leather, sheet metal cap to prevent the blade cutting through the sheath and into us.The small pouch holds a sharpening stone and a tie down lace is included. The metal is all phosphate coated. The leather is untreated.

Our first order of business is the leather. I teated mine with a quality saddle product called Skidmores out of Montana. If you get a knioe with loose parts, the leather has dried. Drop it into water and let the leather swell, wipe down and dress.

Toss the lace out. You can use paracord if desired for a securing lanyard. You will need it! the upper strap is very ineffective.

Toss the stone out too! It is useless. You Can get a sharp edge with lots of elbow greese and proper stones. You will have a half shiny blade and need to dress it with a protective oil.
You can replace the stone with another stone. I stuffed mine with a SPARKLITE and tinder.

The upper guard has two lanyard holes for lashing into a spear.
We've debated this idea elsewhere. If you like upper gaurds, the location makes for a SAFER wrist lanyard.
I don't and you can carefully amputate the upper guard without breaking the tack welds.The ergonomics of such a modified knife are very pleasant.

The but hammer is a functional hammer. I've used mine to crack open green bones for marrow. You have to use care with the exposed blade, or keep the sheath on which is terribly akward.Prolonged pounding can shake the knife assembly up.

The weakest part is that extreme bowie clip. It makes a splendid drill and expedient awl, cuts very nice groves and seems predestined to snap off.

As I posted above, the sawback is for egressing aluminum and plexiglass aircraft that are no longer airborne. It does work.I used mine to access crash victims in small private airplanes. It scales fish, chisels fancy lashing grooves and makes batoning lots of fun.

As a summing overview: Military issue survival gear is viewed as onetime use and then is usually considered junk. For the price you can do worse, much,much worse. I knew an entire Empire that didn't hesitate to trade for these knives. I did once. My russian counterpart was DELIGHTED. His hard to acquire AK 47 bayonet made the survival knife look like a winner, which it can be, with care.

Small points. The early versions of the AF survival knive (I got mine in 'bout '65) did not have the metal tip on the sheath. I beefed mine up with an additional layer of thick leather in the hope that the tip would not poke thru and get me. And yes, the tip does tend to break off. Mine on the husk of a coconut...

Tom Brown created a good knife. For his purposes. But is also highly specialized- it comes with a manual for a reason. I expect any knife to have a manual- it should have in there sharpening instructions, disassembly instructions if appropriate, the warentee information, and the "it's sharp, stupid" warning. Thats all. The Tracker comes with a LOT of directions.

In the dark corners of the survival/knife community there is argument Tom Brown did not design the Tracker.I'll leave that issue to anyone who wants to dive into the rusty archives of the various knife websites.
I cannot understand paying 3 figures for anything needing A.an instruction manual and B. a complete reprofiling of the blades to useable sharpness.the knife is one of our oldest tools. It cuts and pokes holes in things. I am marketing a new wheel.The accompanying video will demonstrate which section rolls.

Most of the internet history of survival/outdoor knife threads can be easilly distilled:

Ethnic blades; Nepalese Kukhris, Golok/Parang southeast asian knives, south American machetes, Inuit ulus. These are invariably matched against our own European traditional tools of

The Axe/belt knife and subsets of small utility pocket knife/saw.When people rediscovered Nessmuck/Rumford and other earlier outdoor writers this combo put food on many a knifemaker's table and more photos in forums. It's appeal is counter to the

Death from above/behind/below 1/4" thick, epoxy low visibility ( and production cost)paracord handle ( add $10)chop till you drop tactical ( as opposd to strategic) genre. This has some shared DNA with

The hollowhandle, sawback RAMBO knife,the earlier version being the Randall designed by AN ASTRONAUT, taught survival by an airman.

the list would be incomplete without the MacGuyver SWISS ARMY Knife, a piece favoured by skiers, ultralight hikers and climbers and others for who nature is often as much another accessory to the sport than the reality that sometimes inconveniently intrudes.

We also have hte 'Bushcraft knife' with it's obligatory and minimalist sheath attached firesteel.

All of these groups, and others unlisted reflect as much our mental template and scripted outdoor experineces.The happy chance that most work reasonably well is as much to the credit of other kit; sleeping bags, a can of SPAM or a PLB.

My next survival blade is going to be a Laguile with corkscrew, ebony handle, bee and filework and riveted cross. I've been on a wine and cheese binge lately. fallknivens are lousy decorkers and cheese cutters. I'm shocked the online community hasn't addressed this vital category before!

LOL Chris

I bought a SAK knockoff lately (intended for my younger boy) and I removed the wrapper to check things for safety. Guess what? What I saw in the photo or drawing and thought to be a small saw , was in fact a COMB.

Can you believe it ?
A one-inch comb . hahahahhahha

But you know ?
It will fit nicely with a corkscrew
Its so small it's only good for a gentleman's moustache
There ya go.

Thanks Night hiker for the link And thanks Chris and everyone for the review and insights about survival knives.

ahem, lesson learned about knives. The ones I have now are more than adequate for a city boy like me. What I need for prying and hacking is not a knife but another dedicated tool like a machete or something like that.

(Oh, BTW Chris did you happen to see the lazy member request?)