Icebreaker merino underwear question

I want to invest in itch proof merino thermal underwear. I understand the function of this base layer is to wick moisture away. My main question is if the thinner it is the better it is at wicking moisture and just use wool sweaters for insulation purposes? I'm asking because I don't know which thickness I should buy. I checked out the 150 at the store but it's very thin. Their original is 260 so should I get this one? Should I get 150, 200 or 260? Which one would wick moisture the best? I want to use this layer only during late fall, winter and early spring.

Thanks
Frankie

For use as a base layer the 150 should be fine. Layers on top of it will help move the moisture and add insulation. I've gone synthetic for my baselayer, thin Coolmax works great to move moisture away from your skin. Then wool or whatever on top of that. Coolmax is easy to clean and dry.

Same with my feet -- coolmax liners, Smartwool socks.

Wool is not the best moisture mover but if you insist on not having a synthetic (best) base layer, a thiner wool layer is probably best.

What do you guys think would be the warmest, best wicking base layers. I've seen all this hype on under armor and I was wondering if it was anything like it hypes to be.

What do you think the best maker of base layers that offer the best of all worlds? (warmth, wicking, fast drying, compactness, etc...)

Would your choice be wool, synthetics, or what?

Ok thanks Izzy, I figured as much, it seams they spend half of their profits in advertising. They had a under armor store over by the bass pro shop in Jamlando and I went in looking at them just to see what all the hype was and they seamed very expensive and didn't appear like it would keep you warm, but I never bought a set to check them out. I was curious to see how they hold up in the northern part of the states but I do agree that over at travel country they do have better thermals. Next time I run over to to the east side I'll drop back in to travel country outdoors and see what they are carrying.
Thanks Izzy.

Personally, I like a layer of Patagonia Capilene Silkweight (now called "Capilene 1" I believe) covered with Capilene Expedition Weight (now "Capaline 4" if I understand).

The silkweight stuff is very thin, comfortable (in fact, it does resemble silk in texture), and dries very quickly. For whatever reason these two layers are much warmer together than I would have expected.

I'd much prefer to layer than to have one, warmer layer. I think you really don't want an overly warm/think base layer.

In more moderate temperatures, you can layer the silkweight with a midweight layer (Capilene 2?).

-john

Thanks john, how does it hold up in very cold temps and high winds? I know it's a base layer, I'm just wondering if you had and cold spots coming in through your outer wear if it is good at reducing that chill.

I know how they say cotton kills, etc.. I have been wearing cotton long johns in the military, skiing, etc.. and they have kept me warm in some pretty cold conditions. I have had them soaking wet in the cold with sweating because of being overdressed while skiing one time. I never had felt cold, the edge of the sleeve actual turned into a chunk of ice,I crushed it up and everything was fine but those were when I stayed active and I never noticed how wet it was until I went in the lodge to get something to eat later on that night. If I had cut my layers down it would not have gotten that bad, but I was on a mountain skiing and no where to put the cloths. There is something to be said about the old cotton long johns, cheap, warm and my father and his father and so on have been wearing them for decades and they lived long lives. I've used them over 40 years and even in -25 below and I'm still here. But they are a pain to get the water out once wet, but with a good fire has helped.

Well, it doesn't get cold here the way it might in some places, nor do I get as much outdoor time as some here, but it does get miserable cold, with a lot of wet thrown in for good measure. In any case, YMMV.

The Capilene is not a 'windstopper' layer. It is fairly dense, so does a reasonable job, but you need a shell on top to keep a strong wind from coming through.

I noticed that layering over a silkweight layer is much more effective in general warmth, as well as blocking drafts than just wearing the heavier layer.

Personally, I think it is very effective.

-john

Ok, thanks John. I was looking for a long john replacement that would be faster drying and control wicking a little better.

And I think this is key. Cotton is fine if you can keep it dry, but once you get it wet, it is miserable and potentially dangerous and difficult to get dried out again.

For example I can get sweaty while hiking and soak my base layer. With a wet Capilene silkweight layer, I can stop, take off my top layers, leave my base layer on, and after a break be comfortable and dry (assuming no rain, etc).

With a cotton tee, I'd still be wet and uncomfortable, and perhaps cold. Basically, I'd probably *need* a fire (or adequate sun, not often handy in this area) to get it dried out and it often can take a fair amount of time. Time best spent doing something else IMO.

I guess my feeling is that if I need to stay warm and I might get wet (in one way or another), I'd pick synthetics every time*.

On the other hand, I go to work in a cotton shirt, undershirt and pants.

But in my car, I have a set of synthetics in case I have to change modes.

YMMV.

-john


* Although, I'll admit, I only wear wool socks. But it keeps you warm while wet, and I try to keep a dry pair handy.

It does just fine at that IMO.

-john

A base layer has to be matched with the activity level just like any succeeding layers. A 150 is fine for high activity levels, 200 for general use and the heaviest stuff for near arctic conditions of minimal or slow movement.
In the past I've used, and I know Randy Schwert uses fishnet base layers available from Brynje and Wiggys. This does mechanically give us that depth of microclimate Cody Lundgren discusses. Over that I like the woolen products.

Generally, the guy who is telling me that cotton kills is standing there in his cotton bdu pants that all the sar folks wear. He indicates then that cotton is okay for pants, but not for torso or core coverage. Lots of important torso parts are actually in his pants, but logic, and irony, have no place here.

Clearly, cotton doesn't kill. It only maims.
Usually the 'cotton kills' diatribe is directed toward folks who wander into the woods in cotton shorts and t-shirts, and get caught in a 40 degree rainstorm. If they were in polypropylene shorts and t-shirts, they would still be hypothermic. Fabric isn't the issue; poorly- designed or poorly chosen clothing is the real problem.


In the Northeast and midwest, folks who spend serious time outdoors, doing serious work, often wear cotton thermals and cotton Carhart coveralls. If cotton kills, you would see stacks of cadavers in the gutter due to textile-induced hypothermia. In the northwest Filson cotton have garments served for years.Carhart and Filson gear is not cheap, and is not second best. The synthetics enjoy the benefit of marketing services-marketers being the people who taught us that folks who live in a country with fabulously pure tap water should pay $4/gallon for bottled water from France. Marketing creates a new conventional wisdom, bring us synthetic garments, titanium cookwear, over-engineered cutlery. It all sells at a premium, confers status on the purchaser, and generates lots of noise in the literature. And it seeks to replace the cotton and wool garments, aluminum and steel cookware, and Mora knives, all of which do the job at least 95% as well as the new technology while costing a fraction as much as the new stuff.

Reading Blast's Blog brought this home to me recently. I had been coveting the Olicamp cup that slide over a nalgene bottle-one of his kit pictures revealed to me that a 15oz stewed tomato can with improvised handle serves the same function at no cost. Thanks, Blast-

I don't buy the argument that synthetics are all hype and marketing. Synthetics are the proven winner for the self-propelled traveller who doesn't have the option to jump in a truck and dry out. They're also good value because they last and last.

That said, cotton thermals have their place. The waffle weave seems to dissipate moisture better than jeans or T-shirts.

There's a cotton/wool hybrid made by Stanfields that I wear in very cold weather. It has a onionskin thin poly/cotton layer bonded to medium-weight wool, and it's very comfortable to wear.

But these days I basically live in synthetics, and see no reason to go back.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll go to the new Icebreaker store downtown and try Icebreaker 200 long johns top and bottom as it's only a couple of dollars more than the 150 for an all purpose winter wicking layer and see how it works and compare to synthetics. Some reasons for my choice of wool are it doesn't stink as synthetics like polyester or polypropylene and it doesn't melt to the skin...

Frankie

I like both wool and synthetics. Polypro did take on odors and it seemed they were there for good. Coolmax doesn't seem to have that problem and as for melting, another option worth consideration is Massif. Their Nomex Hotjohns work great as a base layer. They don't seem to have that odor problem either. Pricey, but good stuff. I keep their FIRELITE PULLOVER in my flight bag.

I am 95% sure that you are right in this, and that I am wrong. The lingering 5% consists of 2 weaknesses in my own character-thinking-doing:

I like new technology, and want it. marketing works really well on me, and has led me to acquire things that I do not, on reflection, need. Things like knives, firearms, clothing, trucks, women...

I really did not see the nalgene/bis-Phenol A thing coming. I have cheerfully consumed a couple of liters of water each day from clear shiny nalgene containers. Felt good about it, too: cheap tap water, no disposables, and a blow against the loathsome marketers. So BPA toxoicity studies come along, and suggest that some plastics leach methyl-ethyl-bad-stuff into me. May be good science, may not. There is eveidence out there that asbestos and DDT may not be as bad for us as originally believed. Is the revisionist science better than the scary science? Is the
entire picture clouded by the interplay of science, economics, politics, ideology, marketing and scientifically-semi-literate me? Dunno. Will there be a study soon that demonstrates that the polypro shirt and fleece that I am wearing are causing brain damage, hypertension, and premature balding? (Clearly, something is doing so, or I wouldn't be the fellow I am today-it might be the clothes.) As always, the right answer is to just try to keep doing the next right thing, get advice from wise forum-dwellers, and react to the information as it comes available.

This much is probably true: George Mallory climbed all, or most of, Mount Everest in cotton, wool, and silk. whereas current climbers mostly use gore-tex, fleece and down. Lots of people still succumb to hypothermia, so it ain't just the clothes.

Regarding BPA Toxicity. NBD, I continue to use the same polycarb bottles I've had and used for years.

Thanks for mentionning this option. Since I'm not a pilot and try to avoid mail ordering as much as I can, I think this is not for me. I'm also a proponent of Cody Lundin's principle that your kit components should be easily purchased or made. BTW, wool still stinks less than polyester. I think Icebreaker claims that the record without washing them is 169 days.

Under Armor is my current favorite only because its a black mock turtle neck, long sleeve and I wear it under my cycling tops. UA is okay but nothing special.

To touch on the Walmart angle, I agree that you can find products there that as good as name brand. I bought a pair of Starter running socks and realized they were identical to my Nike. I researched and found that Starter is only sold in that store and Nike owns Starter. It is just the Nike low-budget brand.

+1 on Patagonia and I would add REI to that list.

I am very interested in the lightweight wool tops that have been coming out the last two seasons. I personally think wool is the best but hasn't been light enough for me to wear all day.

In my opinion for what its worth, I would not travel into a cold climate without a good wicking layer. Either Marino Wool or Polypropylene both work find.

Yes you still need to regulated by removing/adding layers, ventilating, and investing in more thinner layers to increase versatility, but keeping moisture away from your skin is a life saver in cold climates.

I'm going fishing in a pool in the hope of catching the Salmon of Knowledge that ate the nine hazel nuts that fell into the Well of Wisdom from the nine hazel trees.

Hello,

I think that for underwear this is not only a problem of materail, it is also a problem of engineering and shape...

Consider prowool (ullfrotte) 200, it's a wool/synthetic terry fleece and it is warm and comfortable because the small loops of wool.
If you look at the shape it's is very well made. Ullfrotte have made first socks and their underwear are made like a sock : a tube with very few flat sewns.
So this is very nice under a shirt and your skin is very happy even after 10 hours under a rucksac.

Very often in US forum you are against polypro underwear because they smell a lot. I think that a lot of people refer to the old army polypropylen underwear.
I have find that with Helly Hansen it's always true but not so much AND you could wash them at 95°C (white, 60°C for black). with this temperature you have no problems with bacterias.

Odlo underwear Brands ( marvellous swiss brands) have polyester underwear that you could wash at 60°C even 90°C for white, not bad for a polyester underwear.

http://www.odlo.com/custom/index2.php3?lan=E


Y use also cotton fishnet from Brynje of Norway. They are not bad for wicking and you could boiled them for cleaning.


So, it is not only a problem of material, kind of material, shape and construction are also very important.

did

I agree. I came into synthetics the summer route, when I started road cycling in '98. I started out in the summer, riding in shorts & cotton T-shirts. Now this is Texas, so I always came back completely soaked through. I always thought the cycling spandex look was kind of ridiculous, so I resisted it for the longest time. Then I started going out with one of the local bike clubs, and learned that the stuff was about heat control and aerodynamics more than look. So, I bit the bullet and got a synthetic jersy and shorts. Can't say I was dry, but airflow over it ensured that I was only damp instead of soaked through. This was true even during the Hotter than Hell 100 mi ride, with temps peaking at 107 degrees. Never had a heat injury either.

Can't speak for it in winter, since you're covering the synthetic with something that keeps the air off it, but for summer heavy activity, I'm a convert.

I have a selection of ice breaker stuff. I have 140, 190, 200, and 260g/m2 tops and 200 and 260g/m2 bottoms.

Year round I favor the 140 and 190 tops...short sleeved ones. For any medium to high activity in the winter I favor the 190, with the 260 for low to no activity.

Bottoms I always prefer the 200 over the 260 unless it is very cold.

I have worn fishnet from Brynje covered with 200g/m2 icebreaker or smartwool in very cold conditions and find that combo near perfect.

Ice Breaker is fine stuff and has completely eliminated all poly tops for me. I never wear capilene tops anymore under any conditions. I do still wear capilene bottoms for high activity or just under surplus wool pants so they do not sand my ass off.

If I was only going to buy one layer it would be 200g/m2.

Ice Breaker can sometimes be found for very good deals at Sierra Trading Post. I bought nearly all mine there but would not hesitate to pay full price for it....it is worth it.

The best thing about a thin merino layer is that it does not feel at all clamy when damp from sweat...it does not wick that moisture right into your next layer wetting it forever, it dries more slowly on your body rather than a layer of moisture sitting on top of the stinking poly to evaporate rapidly chilling you to the bone. Many times I only wear a top when x-country skiing....merino top is vastly superior to poly tops for this rapid cooling. They are also superior in my view in keeping your midlayers from getting soaked.

Pure heaven is skiing with a 200g top, stopping adding a 260 top, and a wind breaker...you are instantly comfortable and the mid layer will not be like a towel soaking up all that moisture on the surface of your top.

Fishnet under a zip top is heaven too.....open that neck and vent, zip, add a layer and windshell and you are warm and dry in very cold weather.

Check out Sierra Trading Post....Ice breaker is top end stuff. Dump the stinking poly tops...

Interesting comments, Schwert.

I haven't used merino wool much.

I have one merino top that I use on aircraft and on oil-production sites where synthetics are ill-advised and/or forbidden.

The rest of the time it stays in the time-lock vault. That stuff is expensive! But gear that works is worth every penny.

BTW: I wash my synthetics (and everything else) in cool/cold water to save energy. If they are getting a little funky, I put about three drops of bleach in the wash water and that freshens them up nicely.

Merino wool is da bomb - when outdoors I usually rotate between an Ibex mid weight top and a Smartwool slightly less heavy top. I like the feel of merino wool compared to synthetics or cotton. Both are comfy warm even when soaking wet, as long as I keep a wind resistant shell over them. I've slept in wet wool that way, once, but greatly prefer a fresher wool to change into if I can. Neither was too expensive, look for merino on sale in the late winter and early spring - I think the Ibex top was $35 from SteepandCheap, and worth every penny. Outdoor Research had a great sidewalk sale this spring where they had short sleeved Smartwool merino wool shirts for sale for $25. Pick your price point, pull the trigger...

Thanks Schwert,

A question:

Do you have the Brynje fishnet in polypropylen or the cotton's one ?

What do you guys think about these guys?

http://www.minus33.com/

I know you can get them cheaper on the net but is the product any good?

Opps I missed it, thanks Izzy

I have the poly version in tops and bottoms. I have very very very old cotton net from LLBean and some Devold wool net that is also quite old.

I much prefer the Brynje poly net (Super Thermo if I remember right) to the cotton. The cotton net is great mosquito protection but not a good in the wet or winter as the poly net. The Brynje net is also great in the summer under a tightly woven fishing shirt...the added layer keeps mosquitos from poking though and you can very easily ventilate with a couple of shirt flaps. Great under a backpack too....hunch your shoulders a couple of times and "huff" some cooling air under there.

The Devold wool net is my warmest top....very very comfortable in deep cold but way to warm out here in the Pac NW. This is the stuff I would wear if I was ice fishing or something very sedentary but cold. Impossible to find anymore too which is unfortunate.

Merino is the new high tech.....capiline and its brethern are the old tech much like Dufold cotton thermals of the 60's...except they stink to high heaven as well as freeze your ass off.

UnderArmor is a marketing sensation....pure expensive stinky junk in my view.

Last weekend my wife and I went up to Mt Rainier National Park for a 4 day get-away. I had no idea how the weather would turn out....cool and cloudy with rain or even snow, or sunny and warm.....we had sunny and warm (60's-70's). Perfect weather for hiking around the area. But Rainier like most of the larger peaks in the Pac NW can change from beautiful to blizzard in mear moments.

Having a wind/rain shell and a few other items is always prudent on this mountain. A cup of hot cocoa "spiced" up the mountain views too.



I wore my 190g/m2 Ice Breaker top under a fishing shirt and was comfortable in the cool mornings and evenings as well as during the day. I wore the same top 4 days in a row and could easily go into the dining room at Paradise without killing small children with the stench of poly.

Myrtle Falls at sunset.

Lord, Schwert - that is the prettiest picture of Myrtle Falls I've ever seen!

Thanks Lono. It was a difficult one to get as the slot canyon is so narrow it does not get much light. I had to work at this one using a split ND filter to hold back the light on the mountain and balance it with the low light in the canyon.

I was more than a little happy with the way it turned out.

Pulling this all around....

I was also happy to have a merino top on as the air was chilling down fast as I was working on that image. Mosquitos were out and trying to work me too.

If I had been wearing poly-stink-o-rene underwear I am sure the waterfall would have run up hill and I could never have gotten this image. Of course it may have killed off the mosquitos.


Rainier in the early fall is a wonderful place.

Hi Schwert,

Great photos, the night sky must have been pretty spectacular that evening, with the atmosphere being so clear.

There is an synthetic alternative to Merino called X-static which doesn't stink in the same way as other polypro or polyester wicking layers.

http://www.berghaus.com/technologies/clothing/X-static.aspx

And if you can't stand you own parfume whilst wearing synthetics, just think what others must be enduring! Might make a good bear repellent though.

Thanks for the info Schwert.

Your photography is amazing as always, that Myrtle Falls shot should be a postcard!

Mike

Thanks Mike. I lucked out on that shot.



The lower slopes of Mt Rainier are pretty wet in the dense forest cover. Loads of fungi all over the place.

Schwert,

Thank-you for posting these shots. They are truly awe inspiring. These are the best glimpses I've had of the Mt. Ranier area.

You have some great talent.

Schwert,

Is it possible to eat this kind of mushroom ?

I know absolutely zero about edible mushrooms. There were many different types ranging from this large red domed one to round white dotted little ones. Shelf fungus, odd shaped ones, reds, white, cream, yellow....many different types.

I would not eat any of them even if I had a good field guide because I just don't trust my identification.

Thanks Wildman. Rainier is a very heavily visited Park, expecially in the Paradise area during the summer months. It is beautiful but can be crowded. The vistas though are something else. I could easily spend many more days on it.


There is a 93 mile trail all around the mountain...The Wonderland Trail, that has been on my wishlist to do for ages. I doubt I will ever do it, but it would provide days of amazing vistas.

Here is the last image I have worked up so far.



Small black bear that was working the red meadow in one of the images above. He was feeding like no tomorrow...slowly working his way up mountain in the early evening.