Best Concealed Handgun

Posted by: colbyhouse

Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 06:34 PM

I'm obtaining my concealed carry license - and before I take the required training I need a handgun greater than a .22 caliber.

I'm a larger guy, with little or no experience firing guns.

Can anyone provide suggestions and/or links to such firearms appropriate for me?

Thanks.

colbyhouse
Posted by: haertig

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 06:42 PM

Go to a shooting range. Rent and fire many different types of handguns. Find out what YOU like and what works for YOU. It doesn't matter what *I* like.

I would recommend taking a basic firearms class, with range time, and gaining some shooting experience before applying for a CCW permit ("CCW" = "Carry Concealed Weapon", is the term used here in Colorado, other states may have different acronyms).
Posted by: Stu

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: haertig
Go to a shooting range. Rent and fire many different types of handguns. Find out what YOU like and what works for YOU. It doesn't matter what *I* like.

I would recommend taking a basic firearms class, with range time, and gaining some shooting experience before applying for a CCW permit ("CCW" = "Carry Concealed Weapon", is the term used here in Colorado, other states may have different acronyms).

+100 Good Advise.
Posted by: MrDrysdale

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 06:48 PM

I agree with the previous posts. Find what you like. I carry a Colt MK IV 380. I like it because it is small and lite but still has enough firepower. I want a revolver because of their reliability.
Posted by: JohnN

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: colbyhouse

Can anyone provide suggestions and/or links to such firearms appropriate for me?


Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Go directly (subscribe) to the defensivecarry.com forums and ask for advice there.

Seriously tho, it is exactly what you are looking for.

-john
Posted by: celler

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 08:51 PM

Follow the previous advice, but don't leave the range without trying at least one of Gaston Glock's inventions. Pull trigger + go boom + every time = good.

Craig.
Posted by: Paul810

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 09:24 PM

Here's a chart with some options that may help you:

http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf
Posted by: haertig

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 09:24 PM

Originally Posted By: colbyhouse
...with little or no experience firing guns.

Please tell me that you will get training from a qualified instructor before you start carrying a concealed handgun. A CCW class alone probably won't cut it. Many of those are just four hour textbook sessions where you study laws and such (depends on the state). Drawing a loaded handgun from a concealed holster is not something you should just assume you can do safely, without training and practice. You could easily blow a hole in yourself (or a family member) when drawing or reholstering. Depending on your chosen holster position, you could be swinging the muzzle across your body parts, or someone else's, and you really need to know what you're doing and have a lot of practice before attempting a draw with live ammo. Some of the first things you will learn are "Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction" and "Keep your finger off the trigger". Even people who have been shooting a long time sometimes have trouble with these when they first start drawing from a holster.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 09:44 PM

With little experience, I'm generally going to lean to a small revolver. S&W J and K frame and the Taurus equivalents, Ruger SP101- if you can find one, the Colt Detective Special rocks my world, I'm on the look out for one at a good price.

I generally would not recommend anything lighter than .38 Special or 9mm, although .32 H&R Mag is very nice and gives you an extra round when you find it. However, any bullet that hits is better than the perfect one that misses, so .22 has the advantage of being cheap enough that you can shoot it a LOT.

I had to pick on the place to save, it would NOT be the holster. A good holster breaks up the shape, protects the gun, protects you, and keeps it conveniently located.

The reason why I like the revolvers is becuase there are fewer things to worry about. You have three controls- cylinder release, ejector rod, and trigger. If you have a click, pull again- if you aren't out, it will go bang again.

One nice thing for these is the Crimson Trace Lasergrips. I don't care how good you are on the range, or drawing against the mirror- when the real thing happens, your reactions will go to poo. It isn't a matter of fighting fair, it is a matter of being able to RUN away, and while their use is limited it is large enough to show that laser sighting aids while incapable of replacing proper iron sights and training to build confidence in skills and have a noticeable improvement on your odds of being the one who gets to run away.

With all that said, find one that you can shoot well. Too big or too small, and you'll have a hard time using it, and if it is too snappy you are more likely to flinch.
Posted by: haertig

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 10:40 PM

A big part of concealed firearm choice is how you plan to dress. Do you wear suits all the time? Or overshirts? Then you could consider OWB carry (outside waistband). This is the typical "holster on your belt". You need a cover garment that hides the holster.

If you're less formal, slacks and dress shirt let's say, then you might want to consider IWB (inside waistband). Sometimes you still need an cover garment since the butt of the firearm sticks up above your belt. They have "tuckable" IWB holsters where you can tuck your shirt in over the firearm. Depending on your size, IWB may not be comfortable though (too big or too small people seem to have the most problems). You may have to step down a little in the size of firearm that you can carry IWB. Maybe, maybe not.

If you're more like me, T-shirt, jeans, cargo pants, etc. - you might want to consider inside pocket carry. This is a deeper concealment than IWB or OWB, but it limits the size of firearm you can choose. Some people say they can carry a 1911 model .45 in their pocket. Yeah, right. Remember that "fitting in your pocket" does not mean you can "get it out of your pocket" in an easy manner. Nor does it do much good in the concealment area if your pants are stretched so tight over the firearm that you can read the serial number off the shape that prints through your pants material. Jeans are tough to pocket conceal all but the smallest semi-autos, but a looser pair of pants can accommodate a small 9mm if you shop around for a size/style that works. A J-frame revolver (i.e., 5 shot) may be pocket concealable for some folks, but I personally think it's too fat. If you're one of those young folks that wear the saggy-baggies, you could probably hide a canon in there. Most adults don't want the weight of a large firearm pulling their pants off their butts, but if your pants are already like that, more power to you.

Even deeper concealment can be had with the pouches that hang around your waist in the groin area, under your pants. But I'm not sure I like the idea of Mr. Happy And The Boys sharing the same space with a handgun. Normal bodily functions might be tougher to pull off than usual.

So, before you go out an buy "a handgun greater than .22 caliber" for your CCW class just to have a handgun, lots of things need to be considered. I would suggest borrowing a firearm for your class and then research, investigate, and think about your concealed carry needs before actually purchasing.

You may get more info on a firearms specific site than this one (but no reason NOT to ask here - lot's of knowledgeable people available).
Posted by: SJC

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 09/30/08 11:33 PM

I too agree with all the above posts. You have one thing working against you and that is experience. Carrying a Gun is a major responsibility that requires a very mature thought process. You must learn to walk and look away from confrontations. Whether it be on foot or in a car. Be aware of road rage. Not from you, but from others. You will be tempted to want to engage that jerk that cut you off and then flipped you off, but you can't!! No way!!

With that being said, I too am a large frame man. I have been carrying for almost 7 years now. I haved carried everything in every caliber. The first gun that probably everyone told you to get is a Glock of some sort. Great gun, but I wouldn't recommend it for someone of your experience. With the lack of a "True" Safety you might want to stay away from a glock until later. And don't think that you just won't carry the semi auto without a bullet in the chamber, if so, so might as well just carry a big rock. (one in the chamber is called - Condition 1) I would suggest a S&W 638 Bodyguard (.38 Special +p) Skip the Crimson Trace (ctc) laser grip for now also, save your money. There are many great holsters for the J-frame. I carry in a pocket holster most times, but also have many Inside waist belt (IWB) and even an ankle rig. With chukka boots on, you never even know that there is a gun on your leg.

Good luck and be careful

steve
Posted by: Stretch

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 12:19 AM

H&K USP 2000....in an ankle holster. Just a thought.....
Posted by: pforeman

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 12:56 AM

Ok... having been a cop, worked corrections and been a firearms instructor I'll tell you now, do not buy anything.

As many (LOTS of very good advice from this group) have said, get training and try out several things. I've packed a S&W Mod. 29 .44 with a 6.5 barrel as well as a tiny .22 - it was all about my situation then and what worked best for me and the conditions. Right now I've got a custom .45 auto with a custom holster that's not light but is very good for what I want/need and I have three variations in the gun safe.

You will be different.

You will also need to confront what violence is all about. It's not like the movies or books and being involved in a shooting is very traumatic. Before ever making the decision to carry, you need to make a lot of very personal moral and ethical decisions and what it will all mean to you and the people in your life. Go talk to your spiritual advisor, Rabbi, Priest or whatever, talk to those in your life who may have to also deal with the decisions you make and really be sure you've thought this out completely.

Once you are really sure, get some trusted and experienced advice - seek out a friend or link through friendships to someone trustworthy who has experience with this topic - not a gun-shop-guru or mall ninja but a working cop (lots of federal agents come to mind) or someone with several years of firearm concealed carry to provide you some feedback and advice. Then you will be prepared to make some choices on what to carry... not until.

Paul -
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 01:50 AM

I don't know if I'd ask a cop. Two reasons:

Asked out of the blue, it is a strange question.

And a lot of cops, in my experince, are no more gun savvy than they are experts on the law. Some are one or the other, a few are both, but by and large, they do what they are told, and carry what they are issued.
Posted by: haertig

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 03:50 AM

To reinforce what ironraven said previously, don't cheap out on a holster. You need a good one. No matter how you decide to carry. When I was talking about pocket carry earlier, I was assuming you knew that you only do that with a proper holster. I didn't state that specifically, so I'm correcting myself and stating it now. Chances are, "good holster" means "buy online". Most local stores I've be into only carry soft nylon one-size-fits-most type of holsters. Those may be fine to hold your firearm while practicing at the range, but fall far short of what you need for day to day carry. Not all of them fall short, but you won't know which do and which don't until after you have some learning and experience under your belt. Oh yeah, you'll need a good gunbelt too. That whiz-bang special from WalMart won't cut it for long. It will stretch and sag in no time supporting the added weight of a firearm.

Especially given your lack of experience, I would stay away from holsters with thumb breaks (a strap that goes over the top of the firearm to help retention). My opinion is that these are more aimed at police officers who might be at risk of someone snatching their gun out of the holster. With concealed carry, that should not be an issue (if it is, you're not concealing well!) And those thumb break straps can promote accidental discharges on reholstering if you're not careful. Especially with light trigger, no external safety guns like Glocks (the strap can flip over into the trigger guard during reholstering, and then press the trigger as you seat the gun in the holster!)

These are things you will learn in a basic firearms class, in a CCW class, in range classes, and yes, by researching on the internet. My point is - don't buy until you know what you're buying and why you're buying that particular model (be it a holster, or a firearm, or defensive ammo for that firearm).
Posted by: bigreddog

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 07:15 AM

As a novice, it is really hard to go wrong with a .38 revolver.

Versastile, reliable, not fussy about ammo, enough clout but manageable, easy to carry - after a .22 it's absolutely the next step for most people.

Doesn't mean you won't end up graduating to something more sophisticated later, but this would definitely be my first step.

(PS - the advice about talking to a lot of people and trying a lot is also good - but my advice still holds)
Posted by: CJK

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 10:57 AM

As a firearms safety instructor I have often been asked this question and it's type..."What is the best....."

I agree with all previous posts that say "Whatever is right for you." I personally do not like the Glock line.....Don't jump down my throat yet.....read on. The Glocks are EXCELLENT firearms.....I just do not like how they fit my hand.....they feel akward to me...I have friends who swear they are the best feeling firearm that they have held....it is all PERSONAL....

About the training.....ditto with the suggestions of finding an instructor that will 'teach' you and not just put you through a CCW class. My suggestion to all the mental/physical/equipment preparation is to read the following books:

In the Gravest Extreme

Stressfire (there are 2 of them start (obviously) with #1)


They are an excellent starting point. They talk about the various aspects of CCW (including but not limited to:type of gun, concealed carry, holsters, physical and mental reaction, legal considerations....)

I wholeheartedly recommend them to everyone as a starting point.

Good luck.....
Posted by: 7point82

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: ironraven
I don't know if I'd ask a cop. Two reasons:

Asked out of the blue, it is a strange question.

And a lot of cops, in my experince, are no more gun savvy than they are experts on the law. Some are one or the other, a few are both, but by and large, they do what they are told, and carry what they are issued.


Several of my LEO friends bring a lot of gun questions to me. One of them made a funny observation years ago. He noted that everyone asks cops about guns (that they always wear but use infrequently) but they never ask cops about cars (that they use eight hours a day). lol

That said, I do know officers that are extremely knowledgeable in the field.
Posted by: DavidEnoch

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 11:26 AM

I like the Glock 27 in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster for my primary means of carry. I also have a Glock 30 in a tuckable Inside of the waist band holster that I sometimes carry. But, the 27 is so comfortable in my 5:11 front pockets that I almost always carry it.

David
Posted by: unimogbert

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: ironraven
I don't know if I'd ask a cop. Two reasons:

And a lot of cops, in my experince, are no more gun savvy than they are experts on the law. Some are one or the other, a few are both, but by and large, they do what they are told, and carry what they are issued.


In some cases they know about as much about how a gun works as they know about the internals of the radios they carry. You don't see many cops competing in the Practical Pistol (ISPC or IDPA) matches.

Learning how to shoot and about how to handle guns is to be applauded.

Don't commit to buying anything until you've got some hands-on experience with handguns. Don't believe anything you think you've learned from TV.



Posted by: benjammin

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 12:36 PM

I will go with Ironraven and recommend a revolver, but would suggest a 357 magnum with a 4" barrel and adjustable sights. Here's my reasoning.

You said you were a bigger fellow, and so should be able to handle 357 magnum loads okay, with practice. That being said, you can start out with good 38 special loads, which can be an effective self defense round just as any 9mm could. I lean toward a revolver because of simplicity and durability in general. Any decent model will take a fair amount of abuse, and the operation is as intuitive as it gets. As your proficiency and comfort with the weapon improve over time, you will be able to take greater advantage of the additional capabilities.

I've toted all kinds of pistols concealed, from a little Grendel 380 pocket pistol up to a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 magnum. My two most preferential carry pistols were my Glock model 21 in 45 acp, and my Dan Wesson 357 mag with a 4 inch barrel. Neither one was any more difficult to conceal. Those little 22 mag pocket revolvers are too tiny for me.

As with the rest of the folks here, the holster will make or break the deal.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 01:10 PM


http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=259&category=Revolver

Posted by: unimogbert

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 01:51 PM



I have one and love it for backpacking & dayhiking but......except for the barrel length, it's slightly bigger than a "service revolver" which makes it difficult to conceal.

To each his own I guess :-)

I carry a Ruger SP101 when I carry concealed.
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 02:29 PM

I like the way everyone jumped from 22 MPH to 357MPH here.
A .22 is MANDATORY training before you even pick up a centerfire carry piece. I owned a 5 screw K 22 Smith and Wesson 6".It was paired with a K 38 5 screw 6" tube. I lost track of the experienced handgun owners who revealed multiple shooting faults with the 22 and then IMPROVED shooting the 38.

I even discovered a few of my own with the rare chance to use a Walther PP in 22 alongside my 32.

There was a time in the industry many fireamrs came with a 22 counterpart or even conversion kit.It still makes sense and better shooters.

lays Webley-Fosbury .455 with custom manstoppers on computer desk. This is my prefered weapon in this spontaneous butterfly hatching of calibers and platforms.
Posted by: haertig

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 03:23 PM

.22's are nice to have because they're cheap to shoot and a good training aid if you want to fire larger calibers. They're fine in and of themselves too, not just as a training gun for something larger. I don't necessarily agree that they are absolutely mandatory however. For children I'm more inclined to agree. Nobody would recommend a .22 for a concealed carry firearm.

Certainly, nobody should be asked to learn first time on a .357 snubby, but there's nothing wrong with learning using a fullsized Glock with standard pressure 9mm or a K or L-Frame S&W with standard pressure .38's. These are very mild to shoot and would serve fine as a first time gun for an adult IMHO. But full sized firearms are not generally the norm for concealed carry. Some do it, but most opt for something smaller and lighter. Smaller/lighter means more recoil, less controllability, and less accuracy (usually).

Once the new shooter learns the price of centerfire ammo, they'll probably make haste for a .22 or even a good quality airgun for cheaper practice.
Posted by: nursemike

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 04:05 PM

This is about the stage in the standard handgun discussion thread when the debate turns to vitriolic comparisons of stopping power, ballistic gelatin performance, and side by side wound track comparisons on sacrificial goats. This line will carry the thread to 7-10 pages, culminating in the conclusion that handguns are pretty unreliable defensive weapons, and that the serious concealed carry enthusiast should emulate Yancy Derringer's associate Pahoo, and modify their clothing style to accommodate a short shotgun. It also suggests that, since all handgun calibers are poor choices for self-defense, the unsuitability of the .22 rimfire is relative, not absolute, and that it might actually be a good ccw choice for an individual who is proficient with it, or who is less proficient with larger calibers. This position is further suggested by the availability of
.22 RF subsonic sniper ammunition.
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 05:51 PM

I was going to say Smith & Wesson 629 in .44 Magnum smile

But, Every one is wittering on about caliber, but has it occurred to anyone that at OS distances the big issue is going to be over penetration. You are not going to have the time to worry about who/what is behind the goblin.

So I strongly suggest that you stoke it with MagSafe's or Glazers.

One shot stop, uniformly fatal anywhere in the torso and no possibility of over penetration.
Posted by: benjammin

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 06:05 PM

I believe the thread's originator specifically said he needed something bigger than a 22 caliber, and wasn't inquiring about training, but about what is a suitable firearm for concealed carry. While a 22 can and will serve as a suitable concealed carry self defense weapon, within it's limitations, a 357 magnum loaded with a good 38 special is a much more effective and suitable, if not desirable choice, with the variables being consistently applied to both (such as level of expertise of the shooter, economics, etc).

Training is a separate issue altogether from what was requested. Although for what it's worth, I am a strong advocate of practice and the 22 is a most worthy, if not ideal, selection for the purpose.

If a full grown man can't hit a target with a good 38 cal revolver shooting a moderately loaded cartridge (the usual 38 special, non-plus p type for instance), then he most likely won't hit it with a comparable version in 22 cal either. Factoring out the necessary marksmanship requirements for either firearm or cartridge, which in my opinion are identical requirements for either to be considered effective, you are left with empirical evidence that a 38 special is going to be much more effective as a self defense round than any 22 lr.

In other words, a center mass hit from a 38 special at a given range is most likely going to have a much more desired effect on the opponent than will a 22 at the same range. There are going to be anomalous exceptions, to be certain, but for the most part, the bigger, heavier bullet at roughly the same velocity is going to do more damage and hit with greater force. A miss is a miss, regardless of caliber or bullet size, in the practical realm at least.

This, I believe is why the recommendations for bigger than 22 cal were offered, as it addressed the question more succinctly, which takes nothing away from Chris's point in the least. Good advice, whether solicited or not, is still good advice.

smile
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 09:16 PM

I got in deep trouble with the ventura County rangemaster once.I had this brief flirtation with being an insecure security officer in College. I arrived with a prewar , 6" model 10 with the old long action and two boxes of Peter's 200 grain Super Police loads.
I set the day's best record and had half the participants begging to buy my smith, reveal my magic load and asking about the funny, one handed stance I took.
Rangemaster had 3 academy recruits driving him nuts with requests for 200 grain loads in 9MM parabellum, trying to shoot Camp Perry style vs Wever squat and wanting to book this 'Ed McGivern' guy to guest lecture.
I know of a guy in Arizona convinced the CCW instructor his SAA was more than adequate- after being firmly rejected to use a .44 Army 1860 reproduction.
Posted by: 7point82

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 09:28 PM

Two words... Noisy Cricket. Easy to conceal and plenty of power.
Posted by: CANOEDOGS

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 10:51 PM


7point is not too far off the mark..i have no intentions of carrying a weapon--no need--but if i did i would want something that made a hell of a blast--maybe overpowered handloads with flash powder or whatever..if anyone is trying to attack you the noise and blast would throw them for a loop giving you enought time for a better second shot or to beat feet--
Posted by: Matt

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/01/08 11:53 PM

Choosing a pistol is a very personal thing as you can see from the varied opinions. I started with a 22 revolver and then went to a HK USP 40 S&W. I wish I had waited. I found out later I shot better Glock 26 (very small 9MM) and the Sig Sauer 40 S&W. SO I bought the Glock 26 and traded the HK USP for the Sig version.

So the lessons are start small and practice. Then try out various handguns to find out what feels best to you and to discover what you can shoot the best with. A gun is no good if you can't hit the target. Then again, I believe most shootings are at 25 feet or less.

Lastly, choose the proper ammo for your caliber. Magsafe and Glaser (as mentioned previously) are expensive but they won't penetrate multiple walls. There are more conventional rounds that would generate less controversy in court like Federal's Hydrashok or Horandy's TAP personal defense rounds.

Try to find Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's books Street Stoppers and Handgun Stopping Power for in-depth info on shootings and the types of ammo involved. Police reports and autopsy reports are used. Probably a bit dated but good info.

Just my thoughts.
Posted by: nursemike

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/02/08 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By: CANOEDOGS

if i did i would want something that made a hell of a blast--


Pahoo goes high-tech: dragon's breath shotgun munition.
Posted by: Paul810

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/02/08 01:06 AM

Originally Posted By: CANOEDOGS

7point is not too far off the mark..i have no intentions of carrying a weapon--no need--but if i did i would want something that made a hell of a blast--maybe overpowered handloads with flash powder or whatever..if anyone is trying to attack you the noise and blast would throw them for a loop giving you enought time for a better second shot or to beat feet--


Not me, If I ever had to pull a firearm in self defense, I probably wouldn't have time for ear protection. I don't want to go deaf just to scare the other guy away.

Most people don't realize just how loud their gun is if they never shot without ear protection, especially inside a tight room. Even a little .22lr fired from a long-barreled rifle has quite the pop indoors without ear protection. If you've never fired a weapon indoors without ear protection before it can definitely stun you for a second or two. Not something I'd want if my life might depend on quick follow-up shot.
Posted by: Stretch

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/02/08 03:10 AM

Every person who has ever fired a weapon...... never fired one before.

One of the better rounds for all-around stopping power, recoil control, and availability is the .40 caliber. It may or may not be the best, but that's not the point. It's a good caliber for self-defense.

Firing warning shots brings to mind a thing or two:
- where does this warning shot go?
- if a life is not in imminent danger, why is there a need to fire the weapon at all? To scare.....?
- at the moment in time the trigger is pulled, it should be a situation where there is no recourse but to "stop" the threat (there. I said it).

In auots, I've owned a Browning and Beretta, and currently own a SIG and H&K. Of them all, I like the H&K .40 a tad better than the SIG 9mm, though I like the .40 cal round considerably more.

Whatever weapon you choose, it would be wise to try (more than once) several models and several calibers as has been suggested, thereby making your choice the best you can make it.
Posted by: CJK

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/02/08 10:54 AM

Paul810,
Just an FYI....multiple post shooting investigations show that in a shootout, the shooter has reported hearing 'pops'. Turns out they are the gun firing.....I do not remember exactly how it happens but under that level of stress, the body's physiological defense mechanisms 'close down' (if that can be used loosely) our hearing for some reason....

On a range the sound can/is deafening....literally and figuratively. In real life......it seems we may barely notice it.

I'll have to break out my copy of Stressfire to find the exact explanation of how/why this happens...
Posted by: Tarzan

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/03/08 06:21 PM

I can attest for the sound of the gunfire not being deafening simply in my hunting experiences. I would never contemplate touching off a .30-30 or a .30-06 without hearing protection-plugs and muffs - when I am at the range. But I have fired both in the hunting field with no ill effect, no ringing and only the vaguest of recollections of the report.
It is a strange phenomenon
Posted by: Stretch

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/03/08 10:37 PM

I have read about and experienced that too. I don;t know if it's the body's way of protecting us (probably) or just that, since our minds and physiological mechanisms are stressed and "pre-occupied", we just don;t notice it.
Posted by: NAro

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/03/08 11:42 PM

From personal experience I agree that one isn't typically aware of nor discomforted by a weapon's noise if you're in a stress-alert mode (hunting, shooting incident). This is a function of the brain, an "orienting response" and/or a body alarm reaction (fight or flight response). You're oriented on a critical situation and "habituated out" to the sound of the weapon.

But it is a brain filtering process. It is not a matter of your ear being immune to the injury or protected from it. There is no less pressure on the ear structures (cilia, etc.) than when you're shooting at the range without proper hearing protection. So unless someone can point us to scientific studies to the contrary, I am of the opinion that the injury and ultimate damage to your hearing still takes place.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/03/08 11:48 PM

Of course the damage still takes place, and AFAIK it is still considered irreversible.
Posted by: unimogbert

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/04/08 12:39 PM

In the court case after you shoot the intruder it will be hard to explain in a good way why you put on hearing protection. That would be presented as evidence that you intended to commit murder.

Massad Ayoob's In The Gravest Extreme is good reading for getting one to think about the court fight afterwards.

Would you be willing to trade a little reduction in hearing against going to jail for murder? I would.
Posted by: Arney

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/04/08 03:02 PM

Originally Posted By: unimogbert
In the court case after you shoot the intruder it will be hard to explain in a good way why you put on hearing protection.

I actually have In the Gravest Extreme and Stressfire on order, but for those who have read them, does Ayoob actually cite any real cases where wearing hearing protection was actually pivotal in the outcome of a lawsuit, or heaven forbid, a criminal case? Because I tried looking on the web in the past and couldn't find any.

You often hear that "Wearing ear plugs could be used against you" line whenever hearing protection is discussed. Even more common in discussions are: "Only use factory ammo for self-defense, not your handloads" or "Use a plain Jane weapon like your grandpa's wood-stocked double barreled shotgun and not your tricked out 'tacticool' assault rifle", etc. Again, I've never been able to find any cases where it actually mattered, let alone was even used at trial. I wonder if these "common knowledge" ideas are more of an urban legend?

Heck, going back to the OP's topic of CCW, the same argument could be used against anyone who carries concealed (Were you out looking for trouble, Mr. Defendant, when you provoked an incident with my client?) or someone who buys more than a box or two of ammo at a time, like that screaming deal on a case at the gun show (1,000 bullets? Mr. Defendant, why on earth would any sane person need 1,000 bullets at home? Just how many innocent people did you intend to gun down besides my client?).

Seriously, I'm interested. If anyone can cite any cases, I'd like to read up on them.
Posted by: PSM

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/04/08 05:49 PM

You guys just jogged my memory.

I remember reading that Russian tankers' helmet intercom would "click" at the first movement of the main-gun trigger. This supposedly closed down their ear canals to help block the sound. You can see the effect with pets.

Any armor guys here that confirm or refute this?

Pat
Posted by: NAro

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/04/08 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: unimogbert
In the court case after you shoot the intruder it will be hard to explain in a good way why you put on hearing protection.


O.K. So if you don't tell, I won't tell.
Posted by: unimogbert

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/04/08 11:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Arney

I actually have In the Gravest Extreme and Stressfire on order, but for those who have read them, does Ayoob actually cite any real cases where wearing hearing protection was actually pivotal in the outcome of a lawsuit, or heaven forbid, a criminal case? Because I tried looking on the web in the past and couldn't find any.

Seriously, I'm interested. If anyone can cite any cases, I'd like to read up on them.


Ayoob would have been the one to do the research and publish it. He had and may still have a monthly column in American Handgunner on such topics. Might not be any cases. I brought it up as a consideration. It only takes one case - YOURS - for a politically driven anti-self defense DA to ruin your life after you survived whatever it was you used your gun for. If you put earplugs in before going to see what the noise was about - that would be stupid. You need all your senses to investigate.
If you put on electronic hearing protection- that would work better but would still potentially arouse suspicions about your motives.

If I were a juror, it wouldn't be a factor unless the case wasn't clear self-defense.

Your choice as to what to do. Just think about the court case afterwards as you make your decisions.

Posted by: Nishnabotna

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/05/08 12:15 AM

There should only be one consideration:
Do you feel threatened enough to justify taking a life?
Posted by: CJK

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/05/08 05:23 PM

I have In The Gravest Extreme in front of me.....don't see anything regarding a specific case.....

Now his book "Stressfire" has more information about the body's physiological response to the stress it undergoes during a shooting...though not as much as I would like......

The book "In Self Defense" 'The Legal, Ethical and Tactical use of Deadly force' by Michael T Izumi ISBN 0-936279-15-x

Has a much larger area devoted to the physiological effects of both the shooter and the one shot....I have found this book to be quite good for a place to start for information. Though even this book does not have nearly as much as I'd like.

These are the 3 books I suggest to all of my students before they come to my class....
Posted by: BillLiptak

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/06/08 02:34 PM

I'll chip in my 2¢ here, like most every one else has said...before you buy a gun for self defence handle a bunch of them. See how they feel to you. Shooting them is even better, but you may be able to whittle down your choices simply by handling one in a shop first.
Get some one on one training. Experience is priceless and can not be replaced by gee-gaws, gadgets or mall-ninja goodness.
Smaller and lighter normally translates to easier carry, but harder to control. More pronounced the higher up the power of the pistol. Bigger and heavier normally translates to harder to conceal and more of a "burden" to carry. It also normally means easier to control and make the shot count. And the follow up shot(s) if needed.
Only you will be able to decide what balance works best for you.
What caliber is best? Everybody has a favorite, looking at what the police carry is a good benchmark...
Personally I love the 40 smith and wesson round. Or 10mm short if you want to look at it from another angle. 38 special, .357 mag, .357 sig. .45....all will do the job if you do yours. Find a caliber that you are comfortable shooting. Use good self defence ammunition. Just like the police do. I like golden sabers and winchester's sxt.
Don't skimp on the leather! A good holster and belt is paramount to "comfortably" carrying a handgun all day. A good leather belt, designed for handgun carry or a wilderness instructors belt is the way to go. Doesn't matter what the holster is made of, kydex, concealex, cow leather, horse leather etc... so long as it holds the gun securely and presents the firearm for a good draw. You have to decide how you are going to carry. Inside the waistband, strong side, weak side/cross draw, shoulder, ankle, small of back.... then work from there
One thing that hasn't been mentioned which I will do now. Once you have the firearm, belt and holster - practice. WITH AN EMPTY GUN!!! No clip. No bullets. If you can afford it get a dummy barrel the can not chamber a live round and replace your working barrel with it. Practice drawing your firearm as well as reholstering it. Practice makes perfect. Always remember "slow is fast and fast is slow"

-Bill Liptak
Posted by: Seeker890

Re: Best Concealed Handgun - 10/07/08 02:57 AM

I have to say this is a very ambitious question. The best thing for a person new to shooting sports would be to try various pistols and calibers. Do you have friends that shoot? In such cases with new shooters, I would usually suggest starting with a 22 or a 38. However, you want to leap directly to conceal carry. This is tougher, since concealment is dependant a lot on your local climate / apparel you usually wear. One size does not fit all applications.

I carry a S&W MP9c in a soft side inside the waist Uncle Mikes holster. I have found the MP9c to be much more accurate and easy to shoot than I expected it to be when I purchased it. The holster doesn't move when the pistol is drawn. It seems to cling nicely to cloth to either side. It actually clips over the pants with a slight hook that catches under the belt, although I don't think it shifts enough to need to catch. The top of the holster is high enough to keep the top of the pistol from digging into my side. I took an advanced conceal carry class to upgrade my certificate with this assembly two months ago. I must have drawn the pistol 400x over the afternoon without any problems with the holster. I like carrying it in the 4:00 position. I can drive, sit, whatever, and it doesn't bother me. (I was lucky enough to have lost some weight lately, so I have some extra room in my pants)

The biggest problem when you start carrying is that you feel so obvious. That it is concealed to no one. A good instructor in your class can help you get past that issue.

It is important to get good instruction if you have limited shooting experience. Safety is paramount. To others as well as yourself. Drawing safely from a holster is something that must be practiced and practiced. You should start out drawing with an empty gun for a few hundred draws (and then maybe a few hundred more). You don't want to accidently shoot either yourself or anything around you while trying to draw your weapon under stress.

little things can be so important like when to release a safety, when to put your finger on the trigger, when to take your finger off the trigger. Muscle memory is extremely important under stress. You will do in real life what you practice if you practice enough.