72 hour kit without a knife recommended in Wash DC

The recommended emergency 72 hour "Go Kit" here in DC as recommended by the local govt. does not include a knife:

http://eic.rrc.dc.gov/eic/cwp/view.asp?a=1272&q=568088&cat=3

It appears that they are following the recommendations of the Dept of Homeland Security, which also does not include a blade of any type in their recommended kit:

http://www.ready.gov/america/_downloads/checklist.pdf

I would find a blade to be one of the essential items necessary for a emergency kit. Is this an oversight, or do they view a knife as a liability?

Other: they want to scare the public, not arm it.

Why would I bug out with a fire extinguisher?

They probably figure you will end up at a shelter, where they will take your knife away.

I work with a group that works at shelters. I've been told that I would not be allowed to bring my leatherman into a shelter. My answer was "I guess that shelter doesn't get radio comms then, as I need tools to setup the radios"

I was basically told - keep it in your pocket, don't use it where shelter residents can see it, and we'll look the other way

Wait, wait, wait.

Didn't we just have someone (sorry, I'm bad with names. You know, the guy...) deliver a heated speech about how nobody is going to take anything away at shelters? Does this mean they were, well, wrong?

Only an idiot would not carry a cutting tool of some sort in an emergency kit. Of the things in my EDC I use the most, a knife is in the top 3. When I'm on an airplane, I carry medic shears instead of a knife, so I can still cut stuff.

In fact, my EDC for NYC is basically Flashlight, Red Bandanna, Pocket Knife (Swiss Army or Leatherman) 1 liter of water, a Blackberry Smartphone, $300 in cash, an AT&T 60 minute calling card and a sharpie. In my laptop backpack is a mini-trauma kit with Nitrile Gloves, plenty of Gauze, Medic Shears, burn gel, some medicines (ibuprofin, immodium) and adhesive bandages.

Y'know, I am thinking that the government probably ain't the best provider of security in a crisis situation. Were I to be part of a community I felt comfortable with, I wouldn't mind donating a bit towards establishing a shelter of our own. I am quite certain that a well organized and intelligent group of private citizens with more immediate and localized common interests would be well capable of coming up with a much better shelter system given time than could any government agency I've ever dealt with.

People have gotten too used to letting big government take care of them. We've gotten lazy and greedy, and unless we are all gonna build our Burt Gummer fortresses where we can hermitage away from the rest of society, I gotta think at some point responsible men and women are gonna have to step up and take matters into their own hands, or else expect to get fleeced and put out into the cold on a regular basis, or maybe to the slaughterhouse.

Or maybe I am just being naive to think that people these days are willing to invest in a little common good.

One thing's for certain, the federal and often the state governments have a different agenda than protecting the interests of the common man, or small community. They couldn't care less, and they demonstrated such for the past 50 years with their ridiculous policy making.

If you want to survive, you'd best not rely on some bureaucrat to decide how you are going to, or even if you get to. That is just too close to the Commandant at Auschwitz deciding who goes to the shower and who gets to spend another day hungry for me.

IMHO the government is planning on having you make it to the shelters. There, where food, personal space, hygene etc..., may all be in short supply tempers on the other hand may be in abundance. By disarming everybody, there will be no violence. Just like in D.C. The is no firearm violence/murder because there are no guns allowed.....right?
Not trying to be political, but the fact is that government has a way of burying their collective heads in the sand when it comes to armed citizens sometimes.

-Bill Liptak

Idiot here (just temporary I assure you).

Before we jump up and down and decry our guvmint, can we brainstorm a few common scenarios where a knife or other edged cutting tool (defn: the kind of thing the TSA likes to take away) would be useful after an emergency occurs and the general urban population of DC grabs their Go Kits?

Disclaimer: I'm a recent Red Cross shelter volunteer with no working experience in a shelter at the moment, but the protocol is pretty clearly no guns or knives inside a shelter. Maybe this just prepares the population for that scenario, at the expense of using a knife after an emergency but before they take shelter. Basically I would recommend at least 95% of any urban environment to head for a Red Cross shelter if they could find one, assuming they have no where else to go, because otherwise their odds of death and injury go up as the temperature goes down etc.

But what are those knife scenarios exactly? Keeping in mind we're talking evacuation from the DC metropolitan area.

I'm mentally wandering around DC now, and finding not alot to cut or slice. I have a sandwich or meat so far, if someone gave them to me, but the knife is actually not *necessary* to eat those. And for purposes of the mental exercise, gutting and cleaning a deer or other animal is not very common in DC, at least among the urban population of folks who don't already eat rats and squirrels every day. And amateur tracheotomies in the service of dying pedestrians are off the table as well. There's some argument that having a knife can aid in personal protection. Help me out a little here, I'm not being imaginative enough. I don't EDC a knife, so I'm missing out on a level of ingenuity that a DC person will employ after an emergency.

I'm pro 2nd Amendment, pro carry, and for changing DC's laws. Thank goodness the Supreme Court ruled DC's gun ban as unconstitutional. However, I agree that firearms and knives do not belong in a shelter situation - at least by those being sheltered.

Setting aside the argument someone will make regarding what the staff vs the sheltered can do, let me explain. Those needing use of the shelter are the unprepared. Anyone who made preparations can either take care of themselves, they left before the storm arrived (if that was the case), or they were unavoidably and seriously hurt and end up in a hospital or dead.

The prepared have taken the time to prepare themselves mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually (if they are the type) for the unexpected. The unprepared are the ones 99.9% of the time in the shelters. They are also unprepared for catastrophes mentally. Stress and emotions are over the top. When they get stuck in a room with tens, hundreds or thousands like them, that is another disaster waiting to happen. Particularly if someone has a weapon. In normal times they may be cool headed. But under stress and panic, like those observed in the Super Dome during Katrina, people aren't rational and emotion takes over and people get hurt unnecessarily.

It is not a perfect system by any means. Arguably a poor system, especially Katrina. But it is the system now in place and it has worked in many instances; although on a smaller scale. The stark point is, if you put a bunch of unprepared people together, more stupid things will happen. When people become more educated and prepare themselves to avoid these types of situations, like you, they will take it upon themselves to carry a knife for its usefulness. I do and everyone should. The prepared don't need a government organization to tell them what they need to carry in some list. No one will have to take it away their knife in a shelter because they will never have to be there in the first place.

My .02

Well - and this is unlikely, I know - you may need to cut a rope. Or traverse a small patch of dense woods. Or take down a branch. Or shave wood for tinder. Or, I don't know, decide not to become dog food. I'm just sayin'...

if you were referring to my comment that aligator seemed to be worrying he'll be forced into a shelter and at the same time worried he won't be allowed in.

Then that is not what you are claiming I said is it? I'm just pointing out they are contradictory worries. Wether you get knives taken off you or not in shelters I have no idea.

If you are not referring to me; apologies.

And i certainly did not intend any discussion I take part in to be heated. I think Aligator had an Escape and Evasion kit and a Bug out Bag confused. That was not meant as a personal criticism. I wish I had a pound for every time I'd been confused.

Agree with you on governments wanting to keep us frightened. Once you look at what the media and organisations tell us, it is usually aimed at that. So we'll need them.
The Sock

This is going to come off as sarcastic but please don't take it that way.

Why aren't you mentally preparing to shelter in place -or- load up your belonging and evacuate -or- do some expedient repairs on your car/shoes/backpack/home/etc?

I use a pocket knife just about every day. Maybe I could carry scissors, screwdriver(s), a file and several other implements instead but a knife is much handier.

$.02 & YMMV

Potential cutting situations I can imagine in a Red Cross Shelter:
1. Opening boxes, MRE's, or other packaging.
2. Making bandages or slings.
3. Cutting food into child-sized peices.
4. Altering clothing.
5. Splicing wires.
6. Poking hole in cap of water bottle to make it spill-proof for child.
7. Cutting rope for makeshift curtains/privacy walls.

A trauma shears could do most of this stuff, but would be tricky for some.

-Blast

Not sarcastic at all, thanks. I think if you're sheltering in place or loading up your belongings, you'll have access to knives and pocket knives. The question
was about a Go Kit for residents of Washington DC, which assumes some sort of urban evacuation scenario. You're either leaving because you want to (short deadline
until a bomb explodes) or because you have to (guys in trucks with megaphones imposing martial law and pointing you to Fairfax Co).

Believe me, whatever the government says, I'll have a pocket knife on me when I leave my front door. I'm just wondering why the average person needs a knife in their
GoKit to get out of DC.

All useful situations in a Red Cross shelter - and if you're put to work opening boxes, helping in First Aid, or general maintenance I bet they give you a box cutters or other appropriate tools. I think the point of the Red Cross ban is focussed on those who are sheltered, keeping them out of their hands and reducing the incidence of injury through short tempers and long hours.

But I think your list gets a little hypothetical near the end - doubtful they'd want someone without an electrician's license splicing wires in a shelter, and I think they'd be happy to poke a hole in a water bottle for you if it helps you out. The one I can't say on is whether you're encouraged to set up makeshift curtains/privacy walls, that cuts both ways, both for privacy and safety of shelter occupants.

Ok, I'll bite - here are some scenarios where my knife(s) would come in handy in an urban/shelter environment. For reference I work in an urban / office environment and tend to carry a wenger esquire moneyclip knife (small blade, small scissors, nail file) a small locking folder (think benchmite size) for slightly more serious work and a small multi-tool (squirt E4).

Here are the sorts of things that just the moneyclip knife can be used for:

Opening boxes / packages - it seems everything is buried in plastic or cardboard with strapping tape these days. I think this would include some prepackaged supplies the shelter might have around.

nail file is tolerable as a mini, very light weight prybar (for opening stuck battery doors on radios, toys etc.)

nail file is tolerable makeshift screwdriver (standard and phillips)

cutting tape - I can't ever get the stuff to tear evenly.

whittling plastic things down to a size that I can run them though various size holes (think running electrical cords)

opening watch to replace battery (careful, this is a great way to cut yourself).

stripping wires - takes some practice to avoid nicking the copper.

Getting CDs/DVDs out of those annoying slot loading drives.

punching a bigger vent hole in my coffee cup

prybar for lifting Coca-Cola can tabs

Getting coins unstuck in the feed slot for vending machines.

Cutting those annoying zip ties that are everywhere these days

Cutting fabric into strips - lots of possibilities from bandages to restraints to lashing.

Jimmying the wimpy locks on most cheap office desks/modular furniture (takes some practice and doesn't always work) to find more supplies/options. I am not advocating theft/looting but I have broken into my own desk a couple of times.

changing jumpers on computer equipment (scissors & nail file).

That extra 2" stretch for the thing that just fell behind the partition and is almost in reach.

Shorting out low voltage lines - think doorbells, various control circuits - please be sure it is low voltage before proceeding.

I am sure others will think of several things I missed.

- Eric

Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory. 
- General George Patton Jr

I fully agree with this one from Blast:

Poking hole in cap of water bottle to make it spill-proof for child.

I have to do that all the time and it is not just "poke a hole" it is take the lid off and cut a straw sized hole in the lid before replacing. That is the only way I would ever give DS or DD a bottle of water to drink unless I wanted to dry out lots of stuff.

- Eric

Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory. - -General George Patton Jr

First Lono I think you have this the wrong way round. People should be allowed to do anything till it's proven they should have that right taken away from them. Not them having to prove they should keep it.

And 'In a shelter' assumes you make it that far without problem. If you were evacuating a city it'd be for a reason. A lot can go wrong.
Someone can need cutting out of a car or seatbelt. You might need to cut your way through the roof in a flood. You might need to cut an injured person out of their clothes to bandage them or cut open a tin of food you've found. Prise your way out of a lift, cut through an interior wall. Improvise a stove from an old can to keep warm, Cut up furniture for the stuffing as installation. Improvise a crutch...
It's a list as long as your imagination.
The Sock

Obviously the majority of posters to this forum won't be assaulting other evacuees.Less obvious apparently is we have utterly no idea of intent by other people. So, shall we raise the bar to allow a B.A.R. in our personal kit?

I think, since nobody has mentioned metal detectors or strip searches , SOP in this situation is to slip your multi tool, pocket knife or Battlemistress into this nifty clothing feature- it's called a pocket and heed that greatly under appreciated Nimrod Elmer Fudd's very sage advise while being foil to Bugs and Daffy, " Be wery wery quiet."

mmmK

They aren't going to allow you to carry a pocket knife but you think they are going to provide you box knives, EMT shears, scissors, etc as needed. I guess a brief mental evaluation will be performed in the event that staff considers getting a box cutter out of the weapons locker. All of those items that get loaned out would have to be inventoried, checked in/out or there would be no point in stopping folks at the door with them.

You assume the wires that Blast is splicing are for some official purpose and not just rigging his radio to run off different batteries, fixing headphones or the power cord on his cell phone.

You're already an refugee & you're sure they are going to have someone available to poke a hole in Blast's DD's water bottle. This means the staff is allowed sharps and they have a LOT of time on their hands.

Finally Blast's curtains are shot down because they're a safety concern. They're a safety concern around a temporary infirmary or toilet area? You seem to be able to think up scenarios where the curtains are a problem but no scenarios where they are beneficial.

You seem to be working very hard to debunk each of Blast's points while doing no work to figure out the other point of view.

This thread seems to be going down the road where someone asks "So why do you [b]need a car?". Twenty people then spend the next week trying to explain why we need cars only to have each point systematically shot down because we have feet, bicycles, buses, trains, plains, etc.[/b]

Blast did as good a job as I can imagine of trying to break it down.

Sorry, this post was a bit sarcastic. I couldn't help it.

Now Chris, don't go getting all rational on us.

As I've said before, I've never seen anyone searched at or as a condition of admission to a Red Cross shelter, or any other shelter, unless their own individual behavior brought them to the attention of the local police standing by at the shelter.

The rules, like knives themselves, are merely tools available when needed for shelter managers in dealing with hordes of highly stressed-out people of various socio-economic and cultural backgrounds suddenly crowded together. Be reasonable, be discreet, avoid getting into altercations or other disruptive behavior, and no one is going to bother you.

As far as the Red Cross is concerned, sheltering is a voluntary activity. If you have a problem with the rules, you are free to leave. (The local authorities may have different ideas, however. But that's their,and not the Red Cross's, doing.)

If anyone has a different actual experience, I'd certainly like to hear about it.

Jeff

On the original topic I am conflicted. While you would hope that people giving other people advice (such as afore mentioned recommendation go kit) would do a good job, I'd also suggest that people who totally outsource their thinking get what they deserve.

"Hey dude! What's this squishy thing between my ears?!"

Actually, I'm willing to give the creators of the list the benefit of the doubt. They probably really have to aim for the lowest possible denominator, and in that context, if you get people to bring a smaller set of items instead of blowing it off all together, you might still be ahead of the game.

The area I fault them with is not having links to additional resources on the topic or perhaps calling this the "minimal preparations" page and having a supplemental "additional preparations" page.

On the latter topic, I think you want to avoid any type of shelter if you have the means to. We can quibble about details, but the bottom line is once you commit yourself to the mercy of someone else, you are... um... at their mercy.

My main concern is that the ongoing predilection towards forced evacuations. While I think it is perfectly fine for them to suggest "It would be a REAL bad idea to stay and here is why." and "If you change your mind it's too late, nobody is going to come for you.", I feel it should still be my decision*, esp. since once displaced, you are more likely to end up in some sort of shelter.

* After all, last I heard there was some squishy thing between my ears that needs some exercise.

-john

Nope - the shelter workers are not supposed to have knives. Heck, technically, there is no exemption for those working in the kitchen

I know at shelters around here - they do have plans (location depending) on metal detectors, with the PD manning them

Hmmm....

You've never had a block of cheese, two hard boiled eggs, piece of sausage, two apples, and a loaf of bread to feed six people.

You've never had to add oil, break fluid, coolant or wiper fluid, and not had a funnel, but you've been able to find an empty soda bottle.

You've never been confronted with one of those cursed plastic clamshells.

You've never faced a container that is reinforced with nylon strapping. How about tape with fiberglass threads.

You've never watched a coworker actually put his tie in the paper shredder.

Yes, some of these things can be dealt with with a pair of scissors. But let's face it, scissors lack versatility. And the first scenario doesn't do didly for scissors.

On top of everything Blast mentioned, all of which are actually pretty real world. Shelters still have a hard time remembering to bring cots and blankets- forgetting to bring privacy curtains if you have to go to honey buckets is something really easy to see.

The government helps out plenty.

Gustav went much better than Katrina. Why? Because all the people that sat around before Katrina waiting for someone to tell them what they should do finally had someone tell them what to do. If only these lists had come out 3 years ago, alot of people would have been saved.

Well said. I dare say we're all in agreement here.

Can I just come back to the topic of making shelters safe for mankind?

EMT shears get dulled quickly (rendering them useless for actual medical emergencies), but scissors make for nasty wounds.

It is not possible to "disarm" everyone in a shelter or otherwise. Nor is it desirable. Taking weapons away means putting the biggest males in charge. Is that wise?

Amen to that. They can't even keep weapons out of prisons, and that's about the tightest security there is.

We are making an error in identifying the purpose of the original list. The list, I would assert, was not created by experts in urban survival attempting to guide intelligent cityfolk in survival methods. It was actually developed by a low-ranking public relations flack who was assigned the task of filling 8 column-inches with material that will not offend any significant lobbying group. The flack (been there, done that) hurriedly googled the topic, did a cursory reading of the items with big print and lots of pictures, and cranked out the first draft. The draft was then submitted to the political correctness committee, which edited out any references to race, religion, political preference, gender, place of national origin, immigrant status, guns, knives, bodily functions, height, weight, or hair color. The revised draft was then reviewed by the department head,who edited out all the adverbs, and submitted to IT for placement on the website. It was then reviewed by IT's graphic designers and code monkeys, who revised it to fit the available space and to conform to the layout requirements.

The finished product has little to do with the original tasking, but it won't offend anyone, and if it doesn't turn out to be adequate advice for survival, the non-survivors will be in no condition to complain, or more to the point, to vote, so who cares?

Looking for quality survival guidance on a government site is as silly as looking for such guidance from Bear Grylls, or Wile E. Coyote.

An excellent point.

I'll see it and raise it with this thought:

Most municipal and state emergency plans I've had the opportunity to read over are about on par with the escape trunk on a submarine. "See Mom, if anything goes wrong..." They are written by people who get by on the power of positive thinking, not doing. Not even negative doing.

Allow me a couple of thoughts on this topic. Try to keep them short.

1. Let me posit that most of the folks who put this list together probably neither carry nor own a pocket knife or multi-tool. Or at least the folks in senior management who had the final sign off on this list. Because you can't take knives into most federal buildings with controlled access I think that such things are outside the relm of their daily experience. Therefore they fail to grasp the utility of Leatherman or SAK.

2. I agree with those who think that the operators of shelters want to increase their control (and reduce their liability) by eliminating the possibilities of tools becoming weapons. Not sure I disagree but frankly a can of soda can make a pretty good dent in someone's noggin. A shelter that's well run will be unlikely to have violent episodes. A poorly stocked and supervised one will produce situations where knives could be a big problem. So one mitigates the effects of violence that a bad shelter experience risks by eliminating potential weapons.

3. But if you desire is to get out of DC (or wherever) having a knife, even a small SAK, is to me a necessity. I take AMTRAK to DC 5-10 times a month from PA. Since my job takes me to govt. buildings I can't carry even a penknife. And that freaks me out. I carry a 24 hour bag so if I get stuck on public transport I at least will be able to take care of myself in a crisis or get out of town enough to avoid man-made problems. I do carry a knock-off of the BCB credit card tool that has a small cutting edge but it's no replacement for a Mora or a KISS folder.

Quick story. I recently worked with a govt. organization that was soliciting an outside contractor to support their emergency preparedness office. During the bidders' oral presentations to the govt. I would ask each group how many had their own personal 72-hour kits at home or in the car. Take a guess as to the percentage of positive responses. Let's just say it wasn't pretty.

I am torn between the arguement. I truly do understand not letting the unprepared, uneducated and the overly stress people crammed into a shelter carry knives or even a nerf football for that matter. However, being prepared - mentally, physically and with proper equipment - you wont see me in a shelter (or anywhere else populated). I have been a cop, a firefighter and an EMT. I have seen people at their worse and it usually happens when 2 or more people come together. Classic Darwinism will occur. The strong (or better armed/skilled) will survive. Mix in a few people that is trying to help and a few more that are panicing and just for fun and games - mentally ill and aggressive due to the situation at hand. Ya I can understand not wanting knives or guns in that situation. But like I said - I wouldnt be there in the first or last place.

In my 30 yrs of experience, I can't seem to recall anything more serious than occasional, usually domestic, verbal altercations or petty thefts at formally established and managed Red Cross shelters. Most people are remarkably well behaved and cooperative.

It is also important to understand that, in most cases, the American Red Cross is a guest at the facility, too, there to provide certain management and support functions only. They don't own the facility. Typically, there is a pre-incident agreement with the facility's owner, usually a school district or other public entity, allowing the Rd Cross to operate a shelter there under certain specified conditions, and law enforcement is almost always stationed on site, as well. The owner, along with other local authorities, enjoy the lion's share of actual control over many aspects of shelter operations. Its a cooperative arrangement, requiring much diplomacy, tact and negotiation to pull off successfully.

Moreover, the Red Cross is composed largely of unpaid local volunteers of varying experience and ability, so things do sometimes go awry. It does happen from time to time. I've seen cops and other experienced and paid "professionals" go haywire under the stress and fatigue of a major incident, too. The more experienced Red Cross volunteers and paid staff do keep an eye out for the occasional Bozo, but sometimes they are hard to spot in advance. All things considered, they usually do a darn fine job.

Jeff

Maybe DHS should try using a real expert and hire Doug Ritter to create a 72 hour kit. A nice cush government contract would fund ETS for quite a while.

Lono here are myy preferred survival knives features (swiss army champ xlt)
Can you really not think of any circumstances one of these would be useful?
The Sock

Large blade
Small blade
Nail file with Metal file
Nail cleaner
Metal saw
Pharmaceutical spatula
Scissors
Wood saw
Fishscaler with hook disgorger
ruler (cm & inches)
Pruning blade
Electrician's blade with wire scraper
Case and Wrench with
-5mm female Hex drive for D-SUB connectors
-4mm female Hex drive for the bits
-Bit Phillips 0 (Pozidrive)
-Bit Phillips 1 (Pozidrive)
-Bit Slotted 4 mm
-Bit Phillips 2
-Bit Hex 4 mm
-Bit Torx 8
-Bit Torx 10
-Bit Torx 15
Pliers with
-wire cutters
-wire crimping tool
Magnifying Glass
Phillips screwdriver
Cap lifter with
-screwdriver 6 mm
-wire bender
Can opener with small screwdriver 3mm
Corkscrew
Chisel
Universal Hook (also parcel carrier)
Fine screwdriver 2 mm
Reamer
Punch and sewing eye
Key ring
Tweezers
Toothpick
Ball point pen - also to set DIP-Switches
Pin
Mini-screwdriver

^ A four inch fixed blade wouldn't hurt, either.





And yet they missed scissors. Oh well. I guess they could just handcuff everyone.

I think we can all agree that a knife is a handy thing to have in just about any situation. The question is, are you willing to trade that knife for Red Cross assistance? I suppose it is a matter of the situation at hand. Seeing how the kit lists many tools, it appears they simply aren't allowing sharps, which in a crowded, confined, near-hysterical environment seems like a reasonable safety precaution to me. Personally, I can't see how a penknife would be a reasonable threat to anybody, but I'm sure in the interest of simplicity it is easier for them to say "no blades", rather than get into arguments over why this blade is acceptable, and this blade is not.

So, what could you carry and make both sides happy?

Knifeless Fuse
All the utility of a multi-tool, sans the dreaded blade.

Plastic or Lexan Knife
For all of your food cutting needs

Cheese Wire
For that pesky hard to slice cheese

EMT Shears
For most common cutting tasks

Mini-Hacksaw
For uncommon cutting tasks

Those are only a few ideas, but all of them should be "Legal" by the guidelines set out, though there is no guarantee that any of them could not be confiscated by an overzealous security inspector. The question still remains, are you willing to trade your tools to ensure the peace of mind of the herd for the protection the herd brings?

Re,

C. Rowe

In short? No. I might stop by a shelter to see if I can help, but it'll just be a temporary stop on the way to my parents' house in central country. As long as I have a choice, I prefer people not go through my stuff.

For the last time, shelters aren't "safe" in terms of weapons! They still have scissors! Hacksaws and screwdrivers are used to off people in prison! And you're destroying EMT shears with regular cutting chores! Aaaaargh!

P.S. That cheese wire looks like it came right out of a Godfather murder scene.

That is your choice and perfectly within your rights. As a "prepared" person, from a safety and sanitation viewpoint you are more likely safer outside of a shelter that in one if you have your own supplies and adequate shelter (and if you have all of these things, it is probably better to give the shelter space to someone that isn't prepared).



Just about anything can be used as a weapon if enough time and effort is put into it, or god forbid you just use your own bloody bare hands to do the job. The most dangerous weapon is a mind prepared to do violence, and there is no practical way of disarming people of that. That doesn't mean that a shelter isn't within its rights to restrict what IT sees as unreasonable safety risks. WE know we are responsible persons that would not use these tools in irresponsible ways, but a shelter has no practical way of proving that or ensuring that your tools would fall into irresponsible hands. It is a reasonable request in my opinion and one that you are free to choose or not. As far as the shears...I doubt you would ruin them in the "short term", and if so, you could bring a sharpener if it was a major concern.




Really? Then what about these?

Re,

C.Rowe

Nope, it'll never happen. Mr. Ritter is actually well qualified, and could do the job at a reasonable rate. Clearly, he is utterly unsuited to be a government contractor.

Jeff

I have had the priveledge to have the red cross come to a few house fires and some bigger events. I can not say enough good things about them. Please to not take my comments as a assault on the people that serve in the red cross. I was mearly commenting on human nature and how a situation can go from bad to worse to down right chaotic in an instant. My point that I was trying to make (and I guess it was poorly done) is that bringing knives or guns into a place that is already potentially stewing is probably not a great idea for anyone involved. Those who are prepared and forgo the shelter should have some form of cutting devise. In a shelter where everything is in place and provides for the needs of the mass, then there is no need. Thats all. Guess I should have said it that way in the first place

While I understand and appreciate the sentiment, I am pleased to report that technically you are not correct. Miracles do happen. <g>

Earlier this year ETS Foundation successfully completed a test and evaluation contract for the U.S. Coast Guard and I also this year served as a Subject Matter Expert advising a U.S. government contractor on a survival related contract. In fact, while it may turn out to be temporary insanity, we have decided to actively seek additional test and evaluation work from the government to both support the good work ETS does and this site, and perhaps help us all get better value from our tax dollars. Keep your fingers crossed for us...

What is problem here?

Live survivor with knife is problem for goverment. Must be sheltered, fed, housed, provided with medical care. Might even vote against Goverment at next election.

Dead disaster victim is no problem. Just garbage disposal.

And just to add to that:

I scenarioed a Katrina type disaster sometime ago. With large numbers of people under canvas. For months with inadequate numbers of LEO's.

You need armed citizen's either deputised or as posse comatus. To maintain rule of law. That means dealing with the predators. Muggers, Thieves, Wannanbe rapists etc.

No, the no weapons rules may not always be a good idea.

"...Keep your fingers crossed for us..."

Consider them crossed!!!

Leigh, in a long term, semi-Mad Max scenario you describe, you'd discover just how creative humans are. Clawless, fangless, furless, weak, slow, with a fraction of the senses of most species, we're the top of the food chain. Mainly because humans are experts at being efficiently anti-social. *laughs*

While working on the admin staff of a community hospital,
I was assigned the task of writing a disaster manual. Department of health regs required that flooding be addressed. The hospital was located in the foothills of the Adirondacks, and everything sloped away from it. I had research studies by state and federal soil conservation experts indicating that the site could never flood. unfortunately, regs required...so I chose to involve the staff. Standard plan for managing flooding involves emptying waste into plastic bags.

Quiz to the staff: Where should the bags of stuff be stored?

Correct answer: on the roof, well away from the flood water.

Most popular answer: on the admin wing, where they would be right at home with the bags of stuff working there.

So I stopped involving the staff.

The scariest part about writing this stuff is that someone will actually do what it says to do, rather than what is needed.

For an evacuation walk out of Washington DC, I'll admit the corkscrew would be great. For the rest, not so much.

Once again, my point wasn't that I don't carry a knife - I do, in my BOB, in my personal version of a Go Kit. Knives are useful, eventually. I also carry a knife on every hike, sometimes several times a week, and you can count on one hand the number of times I've pulled the knife from my pocket in the past year, but I do use a knife. In a Go Kit, leaving urban Washington DC, I really couldn't see myself making use of most of your list of edge tools, it would just weigh you or me down. Yes, I might miss having your Bit Torx 8 and wire cutters to take over the elevator and save a pregnant woman who is on the same walk to life, narrowly averting delivering a breach in a 6x6 space. But that won't happen so much. If I'm leaving DC with my Go Kit, I'm probably on foot, maybe on public transport, and can't be stopped for anything except water, food, and bedding down for the night. I'm totally reactive, not in control of the situation. Someone has pointed to some actual circumstances where a knife would be useful, such as cutting someone out of a car - that's a a good point, I'd like to save someone from their car accident. But in the end, if I'm leaving DC with just my Go Kit, I'm not very prepared to come to the assistance of others, I may need to stand in the street and yell "does anyone have a knife?"

Maybe having a multitool will help me in alot of situations, I'll leave it in the Go Kit just like I leave mine in a BOB day to day. But having a knife won't make much difference. Hey, that will make a great epitath...

My final point on the Go Kit (really) - I doubt someone left out a knife because it could become a weapon in certain contexts, or to be politically correct. If I tell most people they need a knife, they'll grab cutlery from their kitchen. If they buy a knife at a store they don't research it online the way people on equipped do, and end up buying some Kabar or Multitool. They'll buy a Victornix SAK, which costs $12.95 at Target, and stick it in their Go Kit. They won't keep it in their pocket, because they live in DC, the land of metal detectors and suspicious security staff. And you're right, if its on the list it will make great sales for Victornix. But having all those knives in all those Go Kits wouldn't make much difference to their survival. The folks who made up the list of items for the Go Kits couldn't think up enough vital reasons to include a knife during an evactuation from DC.

Hey, why not, everyone else is getting their share. You've got the qualifications, if I were you, I'd go for it too. Nobody has more money than those who make it. I am a bit surprised this didn't happen sooner.

That said, reading all the posts on this thread has me more convinced that a local community shelter constructed, run, and used by those who would invest in building it, seems to be the best solution if individual shelter needs are less desirable and bugging out is not an option.

My mother does the same thing for the hospital she works for.

The state wouldn't sign off on their plan until the bean counter in question was take to the site and shown that they have a 200' elevation change from the river to them. *eyeroll*

I don't think the bean counter quite knew what to make of a hospital that has water wells and filters if they need to go off town water. :P

The hospital was in Vermont? I spent 4 years in/at Middlebury, and learned to admire Vermonters' very practical and straight-forward approach to problem-solving-which doesn't translate into bean-counter language at all.

Consider my fingers crossed, and congratulations. It's reassuring to know that our government is actually tapping into some real expertise in the emergency preparedness arena.

Jeff

I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought you were attacking Red Cross folks. I know you weren't. Your observations on human nature, shelters, and individual preparedness are well taken.

All I was trying to do was illustrate how a typical "Red Cross Shelter" comes in to being. My key point is that, although the Red Cross provides much of the service, they don't get to dictate all the rules, and many of the things that may happen are simply beyond their control, such as local officials setting up metal detectors or doing searches.

Furthermore, although I am a former Red Cross paid employee and volunteer, that was many years ago. I have no current active affiliation with the American Red Cross, and my comments are strictly my own opinion. I do, however, work alongside and around Red Cross folks in a different disaster capacity, and have tremendous respect and affection for them and for the American Red Cross.

Jeff

No prob Jeff. I sometimes let my opinion override my diplomsy. As far as situations out of the personells control. You are preaching to the chior. I had the experience of working in a direct supervision jail. I figure it would be similar. If the mass descided to do something, one or two personell would have little say in whether it happened or not. Pretty scary and thus, I own my own survival shelter and have educated my family on self-sustaining. Best way to stay out of a bad situation is not to go into it.

The Red Cross does try, and does a fairly good job with what they have, in fact, their paid staff does a great job on the local level (I think there is a tad of feather bedding/politics up at the National - well, duh)

I did the whole "shelter Managaers" series, and was on call this weekend in case NYC opened a shelter, but thank G-- we didn't have to. GNYARC does have one strange issue with opening shelters - because of the way they run day to day, it's EXTREMELY rare they actually open a shelter. Reception Centers, yes, shelters, nope. That's because there are SO many hotels in NYC that the ARC has agreements with that they usually intake the clients, and pass them off to a hotel with a voucher for food, clothes, etc. Last two shelters ops I was on, they opened 3 or 5 shelters. Between the 8 shelters, on 2 operations, the TOTAL client count was .... ONE

I do have some funny stories - like the blackout, and the fact that someone forgot to refuel the ERV before they put it away, and trying to find a place to get 10-20 gallons of diesel during a blackout... (my pickup took the place of the ERV while they went to refuel - got a bunch of goodies from NYPD because of that - I've been told it's policy that if you use flares at a scene that the PD will replace them)

^ That is very impressive. I only wish Magen David Adom had the same funding...