SLEEPING ARRANGEMENTS

Alright everyone- I've already posted about the trip that I'm about to tackle, and have arrived at a fork-in-the-road having to do with my sleeping arrangements... I'm in debate with myself as to whether or not to bring a tent-

Sleeping in a tent has a bit too much of a confinement factor to it- If walked up on by anything, be it a human or otherwise, it's much more difficult to react to the situation while in a tent. I've heard of bears ripping open tents, and there's also the possibility of an ill-intentioned person walking up.... However, protection from bugs, rain, and small critters is unequaled...

I'm wondering what all of your thoughts are on camping in a hammock, as opposed to a tent- The issues I'd like input on are the ups and downs to both, when taking into consideration rain, bugs, animals, ease of setup, diversity of location for setup, and reaction time/ability to cope with a situation when stumbled upon...

I'm going to suggest you consider a Motel 6.

They'll leave the lights on for you.

Excellent points, specially on the bug-net, haven't thought of that...

I am not paranoid about people out to get me- However I do believe in preparing for the worst, because there's always the possibility- Better safe than sorry. The thing about a tent is the serious lack of visibility around me. Tent walls are no protection- Having to fight my way out of a situation when I can't see seems a bit worse, no? In a hammock I'd be freed up, and not to mention- I'd have a clear line of view should I happen to hear something approaching... Points of dispute please?

I'm more likely to set up on their roof than check into the front desk:-)

Hammock pros- flexible to set up because you don't need level ground. Gets you up off the ground and away from insects and small critters.

Hammock cons- air underneath you so lose heat in cool temps unless you work insulation into your setup. Curved sleeping position with little ability to change much.
Requires trees or posts to tie off to. Precludes lots of real estate.

Some people love them. I've not used one.

Last time I went camping the guys who used tents were washed out big time by a prairie thunderstorm that was intense enough to spawn tornadoes. I was snug and dry in the back of my Jeep because I'd figured out how to fit myself and my stuff in after tents had proven troublesome when on 4WD trips. (I waited out a 3 day snowstorm at 11,000' in my Jeep one year.)

But if I'm without my Jeep, I'll be backpacking and using a tent. Yes, you can't see much but I've ridden out some pretty good storms in tents and been really glad to not be tarp-camping.
(Colorado mountains)

Super lightweight and low-vis would have you rolled up in a poncho sleeping in a bush. Probably takes a lot of getting-used-to.

How about this:

http://www.rei.com/product/684087

Put it under a tarp if rains is a possibility:

http://www.rei.com/product/627834
http://www.rei.com/product/655940

I have not used any of these products personally, but that's where I'd start looking. Lots of different tarp options available. I would want netting for bugs to add to that though.

I use a bivy bag and a tarp.

I've considered a hammock many times but unless you can tie them up to something, they're dead weight.

I'm with BigDaddyTX when it comes to ill intentioned people and critters...they don't care if you're in a tent or not and if you're sleeping you won't either until you wake up. Unless you're sleeping fully clothed and equipped without a sleeping bag or anything, you wouldn't be in a position to move very quickly even if you did wake up first.

Either way you take your chances.

Somehow, I'm willing to bet your next post to the forum will ask if you should walk across the country wearing boots or flip flops...

(By the way, if you wear flip flops, your bayonet will come in handy for cleaning your toenails.)

Since you don't own a tent or a hammock currently I sense you're just at the exploring your walk across the country stage of things. If you're most concerned about the element of surprise while sleeping then maybe you haven't considered where you'll be sleeping either. Just where are you going to walk the earth afterall? Because its one thing to re-trace the lonely path of the Voyage of Discovery (Lewis & Clark), and another to hitch a ride along I-80 and always stay within a hundred yards of the nearest culvert. On the Lewis & Clark trip, most places you will be all on your lonesome, no one to sneak up on you for miles and miles, you will need to plan your itinerary to stop at places of human habitation. You could die, but most likely of starvation, appendicitis, or maybe boredom if easily bored. Along I-80 otoh you could get a shiv between your shoulder blades, or a 24 hour ride from a talkaholic trucker headed to Salt Lake (like I did once, 'spoiling' my ride through the Rockies and midwest). Neither is all that likely, especially the long haul trucker willing to take you on. But I think you're overweighting the personal safety aspect of this adventure. If you really want trouble, it will find you.

If I were to hit the road again I would take sleeping bag, thermarest pad, and my Double Rainbow tarptent, it weighs in at less than 4 pounds and repels all manner of crawlies, mosquitos, rain and a certain amount of snow. Most times I would prefer the relative comforts of the Motel 6 or Holiday Inn, but am mighty comfortable in the tarptent too. Consider you want to get out of the rain (fast) sometimes, the tarptent keeps your gear drier than a hammock.

Hammock

For a sleeping system I recommend a hammock system. Yes a hammock can even work in the city. For that matter it can work right in your office. All you need are a pair of supports solid enough to support the weight and far enough apart to hang the hammock.

The advantage of a hammock is that it supports your body above the surface. If the area is wet you stay dry. If the surface is lumpy you don’t have things poking you in tender places. It is definitely softer than laying on the floor or the ground. If you have ever tried to sleep on a non-level surface you know how little rest you end up getting. Because you body had to fight all night to keep from sliding or rolling away. Direct contact with a solid surface can literally drain heat from the body at a phenomenal rate. Thus a hammock eliminates the expense, weight and space of a sleeping pad. Using the right style hammock it also combines the features of a tent. The whole thing ends up weighing less than a pad, sleeping bag and a tent. Although there is less space available.

One complaint many people have against hammocks during cold weather is that hanging in the air the wind blows all around it. With that you are affected by wind chill factor. While true this is not as great as uninsulated contact with the ground. But that can easily be overcome if you do not think along conventional lines. Most people think a hammock must be hung roughly at waist height. Well that just ain’t so. Sure that is convenient most of the time. It can be rigged so that when you are in it you are a mere fraction of an inch or a bit more off the ground. Then a very small windbreak will eliminate that problem.

Conversely you are not limited on how high up you can go either. Sleeping high in the air serves at the very least as a form of concealment since most people rarely look up unless something attracts their attention to do so. Therefore you are likely to go unnoticed. This is even better during the darkness. Even more so if there are other things to hide among.

If you are in the wilds or at least a natural setting like a park or the burbs to city dwellers. A hammock keeps you above those things that slither, creep and crawl along the ground. Higher up it can keep you safe from the wild beasties. In the case of an urban setting this could very well be a pack of wild or at least less than civilized dogs. It can even help you avoid the two-legged variety.

A word of caution. If you are considering the possibility of going aerial for a sleeping platform. You might want to include chest and waist straps as a safety precaution. If startled out a sound sleep you might leap out of bed. If you have a violent nightmare you could thrash your way out. This situation happening could lead to the rude surprise of suddenly finding yourself in free fall just before the thud. The effects of that sudden stop at the bottom will greatly depend upon the starting height. It could be a simple inconvenience, serious injuries or worse. Such straps will greatly reduce the chance of this happening or at least slow you down long enough to realize where you are. Think of them like seat belts in a car.

There is a wide selection of hammocks available on the market. Of course there is also the option of do it yourself route from scratch or in my case adding a few modifications to an existing model. While there are a few designed to accommodate two people most are made to sleep only one. Although in a pinch these single sleepers can be pushed to hold 2 if they are very friendly or in some cases for a parent to include a child.

For those with the desire or need to go ultralight there are the string hammocks. They use relatively light cordage tied in a fishnet pattern. Some of the better ones have ratings of up to 500 pounds. In fact depending upon the mesh size used they can be used as a gill net or a cast net with a few minor adjustments. They can also work as a storage or tote bag for your equipment.

Then there are the old style military jungle hammocks or their civilian descendants. These systems add a roof and sometimes mosquito netting to the hammock. This way they act as a bed and as a tent combined. The modern civilian models are lighter in weight, more compact and have added features making them even better. The most notable of these are the Clark and Hennesy brands.

Sleeping System

Combining the upgraded poncho, the modified hammock and using the emergency space blanket from a maxi survival kit I formed a winter weather sleeping system. I have tested the system in subzero actual temperatures with a measurable amount of wind blowing. Overall I would have probably faired better and much preferred a sleeping mat and a sleeping bag rated for the conditions. While a bit cold and having to get up to stoke the fire it was a survivable situation. No, the initial tests were not an all or nothing situation. I started in warmer temperatures and had backups and a quick out. Initial tests were conducted in my backyard. I’m not going to risk my life on something unproven. Then worked my way up or should I say down the scale. Until I had something that I knew would work in extreme conditions. I would say that adding a sleeping bag rated in the teens or twenties would be comfortable in the minus 40’s or stretched to the 50’s. It was not a clothing optional situation as they were part of the insulation used. Besides it made it easier to get up to tend the fire. The insulated poncho liner is wrapped around you and used as a blanket or bedroll. While I never tried it adding a sleeping pad inside the hammock might have made things even more comfortable.

The poncho set up. In my case and area of operation that being in the Northeast. I have combined a couple of ideas to form a more multi functional garment. One of the ideas was to take a heavy-duty space blanket.
Cut a slit in the center.
Sew bias tape around the resultant opening.
This reinforces the edges so they don’t tear out. It is then pulled over the head and acts as an insulated hoodless poncho. The other concept is to add a layer or liner of insulation to a standard poncho. Ala Ranger Rick. Either of military or civilian design. In most cases such liners as mine are of a pile type fabric, thinsulate or fleece blanket material. This liner can either be attached via snaps or zippers. I prefer and use snaps because they are easier to install. The liner lets the poncho function as a lightweight walk-around sleeping bag. Sort of a high tech bed roll. What I did was add the space blanket idea between the poncho shell and the liner using snaps. When all 3 pieces a used together it upgrades the thermal insulation value for cold weather. The nice thing about it is that each piece can be used independently or in any combination. This assembly not only functions as wearing apparel but also as portions of sheltering and sleeping systems. Don’t forget you further can and probably should line the hood with insulation and a tin foil beanie.

I’ll use compass directions to give some perspective. To start say the wind is blowing from east to west. Of course if you are building such a setup use the actual wind direction to align it. If there is a significant snow cover dig a north south trench. Then hang the hammock so that it fits into the trench without touching the sides or bottom. The trench will act as an additional windbreak. With little or no snow the trench is not necessary. Hang the hammock as close as possible to the ground without touching when fully loaded. The head and foot orientation north to south is whatever is most comfortable for the terrain.

A lean-to frame is the constructed to surround the hammock. The low side points east with the opening toward the west. The top of the lean-to is made so that it barely clears the top of the hammock system. It should extend far enough that when finished the hammock is completely enclosed on the ends and top. Obviously the downwind side is left open.

The emergency space blanket is the draped over the frame. Because of the fragile nature of the blanket it is then covered with the poncho. This gives you a reflective, water and relatively wind tight roof. Then the roof and sides can be covered and enclose with brush, branches, snow or debris to form a more solid shelter. The space blanket liner of the poncho is erected a short distance from and across the opening of the lean-to at the west end. The spacing is such that a fire can be built between them. The different space blankets are in these positions because of their differences in strength to withstand the stresses they will be subjected to. What the combined reflective qualities of the two blankets do is form a reflector oven. The back reflector pushes much of the heat of the fire into the shelter and the roof blanket directs that heat down to where you are sleeping. Only instead of baking biscuits you become the roast.

If there are to be others involved with similar set-ups. The fire reflector can be eliminated. Then the other lean-tos involved can surround the fire to reflect towards each other. Although if there are not enough to enclose the fire the reflector can be erected to fill the gap. This set up will work for about 4 but maybe be pushed to 5. Any more would require separate areas and fires. While common corners can be used in construction. Make sure that at least one corner is left open for access. It’s a real pain to have to climb over the lean-tos to get in and out.

If there is little or no snow the entire setup could be improved by including a hot rock bed as described by Ron Hood. If this is used you might want to lower the hammock even more so that it can actually touch the ground. While the system can be setup in a relatively short time. If the hot rock bed is to be included you will need to add a couple of hours to the prep time. First to sufficiently heat the rocks and for the time to bake the moisture out of the soil. You don’t really want to start your night in a steam bath. When things cool as the night passes that steam will condense and make you wet and even colder.

I think either the Clark or the Hennessy hammock can be set up as a tent, if you want.

My apologies Fitzoid- You were not the one who had assumed my death... That was Blast, and the message goes for him as well. NO MORE OPINIONS PLEASE, information is all I'm looking for

Hammock Forums

WARNING! The above website is highly addictive!!!


I like sleeping in a hammock, myself. Much, much more comfortable. And I use a tarp above it for rain protection. You can see out the ends if you hear something.

Good luck with your decision!

Suzy

Oh, sorry, just saw the "no more opinions".

Hope the website is of to you!

Suzy

I agree wholeheartedly with Blast. (But you're absolutely right; he won't be able to get your knives, as you've already told us you'll be wrestling bears with them.)

So, here's some information, as you requested:

You are not remotely prepared or qualified for the journey you keep asking Cub Scout level questions about. For that matter, I don't even believe the statements you're making or that you're taking this great soul searching trip.

Showing up on a board dedicated to personal responsibility and refusing to take any (e.g., "I refuse to prepare or practice in any way," etc.) and making absurd statements like "LEOs can KMA" or "I don't care if I put SAR personnel in danger trying to rescue me" says volumes about you.

I think Blast is a fantastic poster. You are not.

"...going aerial for a sleeping platform..."

Not being a hammock person, I am trying to get a view in my mind of getting into a hammock, strung between two trees, about 50 ft in the air. I can't see it. So how would one get into bed up in the air???

OBG - Carefully.

Oh yeah...

Please! We avoid all personal comments, personality conflicts, flame wars, etc. etc. in this community. We avoid them like the plague. They invariably interfere with useful discussions, and waste everyone's time.

You may disagree with previous comments, but do not respond in a personal manner. Please reserve your comments to content-related points. Otherwise, you're skating on very thin ice.

I respectfully submit that you need to "change course" right away.

We won't be hearing from Chaotiklown for a week or so... We'll see if he has a change in attitude at that point.

Yes VERY,VERY carefully.

It's a trick I learned many years ago reading Heinlein's Tunnel in the Sky.

It can be done. In a single large tree or a couple of trees. It is easier if you have a third branch or tree as a standing platform.

I tried it out a couple of time in my young and foolish days. You know that age where you can't die or get hurt stage.

This is the first year the I have used a hammock extensively, they can be set up on the ground as you would a tent if there are no trees available.

My Hennessey has given me some of the best nights rest that I have had in the woods, includng during a rain storm that dumped over 3 inches of rain in 1 night and flooded out all of my tent based friends. I was the only one not drying my gear most of the next day.

Also, the whole not sleeping on the hard ground seems to be easier on my ever aging body in the morning . The nights that I spend in the hammock were around 40 degrees, and I found that putting my sleeping pad under my bag did help keep the warmth in.

The only downside of the hammock that I have found is the lack of storage space for your stuff, I ususally set up a tarp near my hammock to keep my gear dry.

PS Thanks Doug for stepping in and stopping the building flame war. There is good information in this thread and I would hate to see it degenerate.

I find a tent easier for me, as I have some trouble negotiating with hammocks due to my size. For comfort, I like to sleep with my 44 mag and trip lines around the camp. If an unwanted should venture into camp and cause a ruckus, and especially if they come messing around the tent, the 44 should be enough deterrent. If they are still out there after the first round or two, they won't be happy about staying long.

Ben, who often sleeps with one eye open, and focused on the front sight.

Anyone tried this?
The Sock

I prefer a tent myself. I often bring one of those fishnet type hammocks to lounge in when camping, but I wouldn't want to spend a night in one.

The jungle-type hammocks do look interesting tho. A tent still has superiour wind/rain protection.

I've set up my Hennessy on the ground a couple times using a couple sectioned aluminum poles from a yard sale pup tent. More room than a bivy sack and smaller than a pup tent but it works well enough if you have a good ground cloth and an insulating pad.

I'd prefer to hang it so I've been on the scout for a sturdy sectioned pole to use for one end so I can attach the other end to any available telephone/light pole, fence post or tree. I'm postulating that with three well-staked guy lines on the pole the weight will be directed straight down on the pole and prevent it from bending. Still experimenting at this stage however.

Hammock tents seem to wax and wane in the catalogues. The first ones resembled the jungle hammocks from WWII.

It would be fun to try one.

I'd have to get over the worry that in bear country (four legs or two) I'd be wrapped up tight like a pita or a pinata.

Thanks Doug.

As for sleeping arrangements, in the summer I just use mosquito netting hung from poles, tree or bush if I'm camping along sandbars. If I'm in the woods I use a hammock. In both cases I have a waterproof silnylon tarp ready to trough over my setup if it looks like rain. In Texas summers you need all the ventilation you can get and so these systems work great. I've been eyeballing this thing but right now my system works well enough.

In colder (Texas) weather I use aEureka Solitare Solo bivy. It's very sweet.

-Blast

"...a sturdy sectioned pole to use for one end so I can attach the other end to any available telephone/light pole..."

I am not a hammock user, so I have no first hand experience at this, but I have read of the British SAS using two crossed sticks (think wooden hiking staffs), tied near the top in a lop- sided X, then running one rope from the hammock thru the X and down to a ground anchor/stake. Sounds kinda iffy to me, but you could try (and report) if you wanted...

It looks like the original question of hammock vs. tent seems to come down to the terrain being traversed and the weather/climate involved. I'm gathering that most who are experienced with both are of the belief that in a wooded or semi-wooded area in drier, warmer weather, a hammock is worth considering, while in other areas and other weather conditions, not so much.

I admit my experience with hammocks is limited to snoozing in one in my back yard. As for tents, my childhood nostalgia for the old army pup tent nothwithstanding, I get a little claustrophobic in them.

Yes, I guess I've become one of those "tarp people."

I love bringing my dog. I carry her food, obviously I'm not gone for a month, and bury her waste on any trials; no one wants to step in doogie doo on a well marked path. She can drink from any stream w/o ill effect, but I do carry some simple meds (e.g., metronidazole) for her just in case.

I've never brought her for protection. I just feel like primordial man out in the wild with my monster dog. Of course, she'd try to protect me from just about anything on the planet.

But I wonder where all these worries come from of being attacked while hiking/camping. I've never felt unsafe outdoors except due to weather or natural phenomena, such as an ice sheet that looks like it's about to calve; that's scarier than all the crooks in the world combined.

I think I've seen one drug deal in the woods and I was alone at the time. I kept my distance, they kept theirs. Otherwise, everyone I've ever met is happy to see another person and far friendlier than strangers in a city. Maybe it's that I generally stick to trails and reasonably well-established routes. Although I've also gone way off the beaten path without any problems either.

And for the record, tents or mesh enclosures all the way. I hate black flies.

Blast,

Good point. For you, a tent would be a bit overkill. It really depends on the terrain and weather.

I do a lot of deep woods type of camping. A hammock would work, but often the temp drops a lot during the night. The tent helps to conserve some of that heat when the rainfly is attached. I camp in the PA NE usually.

Mike

For me it also comes down to I just find a hammock exceptionally uncomfortable. I can get by without a tent but for reasons mentioned above I'd prefer a 2 man tent on a long hike.

I'm sort of in the "lightweight but not ultralight" category towards gear. I'll carry something a little heavier if i think it's going to improve my enjoyment of what I'm doing versus ultralight just to save weight.

I'm interested in the idea of a hammock, I'm a bit of a tarp guy myself... I'm not looking to spend a ton on a hammock, and I found one that I'd like some critique on from someone that uses them-

http://www.hammock-company.com/detail.asp?id=4196&sku=TRAVEL-HAMMOCK&mode=ADD&prc=B000

I realize that it has no bug net, But I could get one separately.

For those of you interested in hammocks, there is a hammock forum that might give you some info...

This is as personal a decision as what kind of mattress to use at home.

Cheapo store model works just fine for some. Other people pay $3K for a Tempurpedic. We tried one and I couldn't stand it; I was up all night tossing and turning. It was returned a week later. Now, we have a super firm something or other brand. I remember the salesman trying to talk us out of it. "You'll hate it! You'll be back!" We love it. There's no accounting for tastes.

I have friends who swear by the Sleep Number bed. Others want pillowtops, foam mattresses, very specific firmness, etc.

You can't know without trying a bunch of variants, and it's best to do so on very short trips. Nothing like carrying gear when you were up all night cause you couldn't sleep.

Also, hammocks deteriorate over time, just like anything else. I still remember the "below the waste" section falling apart on a hammock I was sleeping on that had been a bit abused. That was quite the shock and felt like an earthquake...

I have a DIY Speer hammock that I converted into a DIY Hennessey. I much prefer the Hennessey design. I go to great lengths to avoid sleeping on the ground now. Sleeping on the diagonal in a properly-designed and pitched hammock, you'll hardly notice that you aren't flat, as long as you sleep on your back.

A rectangular 8x10' silnylon tarp pitched separately from the hammock is very flexible in its options. Pitch it high for light rain, increased visibility, and being able to stand up. I can even cook dinner in the rain while laying in my hammock under my tarp using a stove! (Not that that's a recommended practice in bear country! ;))

Here's Ed Speer's site. I don't like his hammock design, but he has excellent instructions and tips (no affiliation):

http://www.hammockcamping.com/

My current bugnet is just a length of black no-see-um draped over the hammock, but I plan to attach it with a continuous Velcro strip. Here's my setup from a recent trip:



Edit: This is a reply to the main thread. Sorry for the misplaced reply.

I'm a newbie, haven't read where you are going yet, but I'd suggest to take a tent, then if you feel the situation arises you can do without it, try it a night and see how it goes.
Besides the bug-fest that could occur ( I hate bug bites on my eyelids! ) I think having a tent is also nice to store things out-of-sight, out-of-temptation for the odd slightly-evil person that just might steal a thing or two. Besides, the beauty of being in a tent is THEY don't know what YOU have in the tent either.. you might be packing a nice big knife

+1 on your post.

Setup your tent, and then sleep high up in a tree, ever watchful. When the bad guy comes for you in your tent, you can drop down on him from above. SURPRISE!!!

I have tried both, and in a hammock I had thought that I was easily approachable and visible. Unless I am sleeping on bare ground in some advantageous location, which is usual for me, I prefer a tent. Unless you are being stalked, a person can't tell exactly how many are in there with you, and there is no determining exactly where your head is.
Exit from a tent can be a surprise explosive effect through the wall with quick long downward slice with a sharp knife, if need be for some reason, and charging the guy. But then you don't know how many of them there are either. Just feeling like meeting the threat head-on can send contrary vibes to a curious would-be destructive black bear, but probably not a Grizzly.
A few thoughts:
trip wire, perimeter alarms, pepperspray, firearm, camo, light sleeping habits, loyal dog companion, travel buddy and two separate sleeping arrangements, etc.

I have an REI two person and it is a perfect backpacking tent. I have found most two person models made today have cut weight by meshing the top portion of the tent for 2-3 season use which does give good visibility but also includes a rain fly for heavy downpours.

Every time I put a tent down, I dig a trench around it to draw water.

I recently purchased an Eagle Nest Outfitters hammock and while it served me well on a weekend trip, hammocks need to have a place to put them up and honestly its hard to find, at least in the desert SW. I take it to the beach, to national parks, etc to sting up in the family BBQ areas and its usually hard to find lash points.

I am determined to continue using my hammock as often as possible but a light weight tent is IMHO the best option for long term travel. Its just to versatile for all the reasons listed for the weight it is.

"...Every time I put a tent down, I dig a trench around it to draw water..."

The leave no trace folks will hate you for that...

its more than just "no trace"--if you have a tent with a
different footprint you may find a trench under your tent..
a plastic sheet inside the tent will keep you dry..if you
put the sheet under the tent water can be forced up thru the
floor fabric by your shifting body weight--trust me on this..

I think we should differentiate between recreational camping and bugging out.

I'll assume that when you go camping you probably do it some time between spring and autumn. And you have every intention of returning home before winter when the temps get below freezing. Lightweight sleep systems are adequate for this.

But if you are preparing for a bug out situation, then you should be planning for the worst. And the worst means that you are forced to leave your home in the middle of a freezing winter. In this situation, I think going lightweight is inadequate. Could it be done? Yes. Would it be difficult? Hell yes.

I have a Eureka "Assault Outfitter 4" tent and a Slumberjack "Big Timber" -30F sleeping bag. Both are bulky and heavy (combined weight is 27 lbs). There's no way I can carry them on my back along with my other critical survival gear. So how do I plan to bug out with them?

I also have a Cabela's "Super Mag Hauler" deer cart, with the dual wheel kit added on for extra durability. This cart is made for hauling heavy game out of rough country. Hauling a tent and sleeping bag into rough country is no problem.

My method is to always carry my winter sleeping bag and a blanket.
During the summer months, I sleep on top of the bag and cover with a blanket. During the cold winter months, I get inside of the bag with the blanket on top.

When I carry my winter clothing, I have a significant weight addition and I struggle with that. I feel the need to use camp outs as training exercises IRT a Bugging Out situation.

Yes, I know that I am a sick puppy!

It's not hard to go light and stay warm. My sleeping bag and shelter for winter camping weigh only about 10lbs and nearly 8 of that is the sleeping bag at the core of the system.

How do you like the Assault Outfitter 4 Tent? I tried buying one last year but the Eureka store that sells factory refurbs wouldn't ship to Canada.

I got mine through amazon.com.

It's a nice tent. It claims to fit 4 people. It'll fit 4 kids, but for adults I would say no more than 2 people can fit comfortably. You can sqeeze in 3 adults if you had to. I'm a loner, so it's just right for me plus all my gear.

Setup is easy. I do it by myself in about 15 minutes. I relax and take my time, mind you. I could do it faster if I had to.

What makes it a 4 season tent is the storm shield. You simply throw it over the top of the tent and stake it down. Take it off and you have 2 big doors with bug screens that can be left open in the summer.

I only have 2 complaints:

1. The stakes that come with it are cheap. I recommend buying separate titanium stakes.

2. Not all of the seams are sealed to keep out rain. You have to do that yourself.


Overall I give it a 9 out of 10.

I admit I am unprepared for winter overnights right now. My tent is three season and my bag a 40+. I have camped in Yosemite where it has dropped to below freezing and did okay by putting extra clothes on, but its not ideal for a worst case.

I need to invest in a zero degree bag and 4 season tent at some point.

"... invest in a zero degree bag..."

And that is no real assurance of anything. I have a 20 degree bag that I freeze in at 35 or so, my wife has a zero bag that barely keeps her warm at 40. Good thing they zip together, or we would never get any sleep. Or at least not due to cold...

While there are some standards for testing sleeping bags, every manufacturer seems to do their own tests and do it in their own way. If you can, learn how they do it first as this can help you make an educated guess. If they don't advertise how they test the bags, then maybe you're looking into the wrong brand. The standard the MEC follows is set out by the ASTM and I've had very good luck with their bags. I believe The North Face does too but I can't find anything proving that right now. I'm also a big fan of TNF bags.

For me I used a +20F bag nearly year round but it's part of a modular system with layers which can be added or removed to suit conditions. At most I'll have 6 layers and at minimum 2 or 3 depending. I've tried and liked about 6 different combinations for different seasons and temperature ranges and I'm still coming up with new combos as I go. I'm hoping for some REALLY cold weather this winter so I can test it out in -40 or worse with just a tarp shelter.

Every time the first big cold snap hits and I see guys at the local outfitter buying -40 sleeping bags which are bigger than my whole pack, I laugh.

What 6 layers would that be?

Thanks.

Here's the full parts list. I rarely carry all layers unless I'm expecting it to be -35C or worse. I'll usually carry more than I need though since the individual parts are fairly light and I like to be ready for unexpected weather. Snow in July isn't impossible here.

• MEC Merino Wool long underwear tops and bottoms (they were getting thin so they've been demoted to dedicated sleepwear duty)
• Silk Mummy Bag liner
• AMK 2.0 bivy
• The North Face Aleutian bag (+20F rated)
• MEC Penguin Overbag. Long. (+15C rated by itself)
• REI Minimalist Bivy. Long.
• MEC Kelvin 2.5 sleep pad. Short.
• Thermarest RidgeRest foam pad.

In winter I'll wear the long underwear, use the 2.0 bivy as a vapor barrier liner for the bag, both sleeping bags, the REI bivy, and both sleep pads (the double sleep pad is untested as i just got the Kelvin this spring. I plan to put it inside the REI bivy for additional warmth and comfort with the closed cell pad on the ground/snow). The secret to this systems success is the vapor barrier. I've posted about this topic and this system before so I won't get into it here. Just know that this system has been proven to worse than -30C WITHOUT the Penguin overbag and with only the Ridgerest pad.

For weather like we see right now I'll have the Silk liner, the Penguin overbag and the REI bivy only...that's about the minimum though if it's crazy hot I might just crawl inside the AMK 2.0 bivy. I've yet to be so hot that it seemed like a good thing to do. I sometimes wear the wool undies in the summer too (or instead of the silk) because Wool really helps regulate your body temperature...hot or cold. Silk is just more comfy when the weather gets muggy.

Still a bit fuzzy on how you deploy all this.

If it was killer cold, which would be the outside layer, which the next, etc.

Or, if it is esier, staring from the innermost [the underwear, I assume] what layer is next, etc.

Thanks.

Polyethylene or silk weave underlayer next to my skin for comfort and wicking. Then thin woven merino wool layer, then breathable nylon or poly shirt and pants, then breathable waterproof fleece shell. That is the clothing extreme, for the sleeping bag I've got a 0 degree 4.5 lb poly bag, oversize, in rectangular form, a full size self inflating mattress pad underneath, and a waterproof breathable fleece blanket to wrap around the bag if need be. This all goes inside a 2 1/2 man 3 season tent, with a deluxe poly tarp guyed and poled over the top of that if need be. But all that is luxury. I usually make do with only part of that list.

I wish I could draw this...it's how I planned it out in the first place last year. Here it is again starting from the inner most layer using winter as an example since it's got most of the layers

• Long underwear is the inner most layer obviously.
• AMK 2.0 bivy is next. It acts as a vapor barrier and radiated heat reflector
• Aleutian sleeping bag is next as the main insulation
• Penguin overbag as extra insulation
• All this goes on top of a MEC Kelvin 2.5 sleeping pad
• All the above goes inside an REI minimalist bivy
• Under it all is the closed cell sleep pad.

With the exception of the pads the whole thing is kept together and rolled up all nested inside itself toe first. Then I put it into an Outdoor Research drycomp compression bag so it fits nicely into my pack. The summer set gets similar treatment only in a smaller compression bag.

Found it. Search for "sleep system" (include the quotes) and you should find the 3 or 4 posts I made over the winter about my crazy sleep kit and subsequent balcony test session.

I use my Hennessy Hammock with the 4-season system in all kinds of weather but haven't been able to try it out in very cold weather yet. One thing I did add was an "underblanket" from Wiggy's, It's not listed on their website but they do make them on a per order basis.

If I used a cart or sled in winter with adequate snow, I'd seriously consider getting a Grand Shelters ICEBOX. Come to think of it, I'll have to start researching carts that can convert to sleds for BOB/INCH purposes. (No affiliation with Hennessy, Wiggy's, Grand Shelters or any cart/sled manufacturer or supplier.)

LINK: Grand Shelters ICEBOX

Igloo's are great but you need the right kind of snow or building one is impossible.

Using the traditional Eskimo method perhaps but evidently not with this method. The manufacturer claims any kind of snow will work because the friction of packing it into the box causes the particles to bind together. The biggest drawback is that it requires at least two people to use, a "form handler" and at least one shoveler.

I've thrown too many snow balls to believe that. Some types of snow just won't stick to itself...period.

I checked the site again but I didn't see where they specifically claim it works with all types of snow.

Okay. I found it. It's in the manual. They admit that with 'sugar snow' the construction is difficult at best but 'can be done'...not super encouraging IMO.

There is also a blurb in the beginning about testing the snow by squeezing it between your hands. I wonder how they determine that heat from your hands isn't what's causing the snow to bind.

I believe their theory is that the pressure from the packing of the snow melts the particles slightly enough for them to bond. It's a sound theory...that's how ice skates work after all. But when it's really cold and really dry and the snow just right, I'm not sure I'd trust my life to this gizmo.

Definately could be fun if you had kids around. Assuming you could keep them distracted for 3 hours while you build the Igloo

I wouldn't recommend the ICEBOX as someone's only winter shelter plan but if they were or expected to be in an area with snow, it would make a dandy backup or even primary shelter because of the insulating properties if they expected to stay in one place for several days or weeks. I believe it would also be a worthwhile investment for a car E-kit in blizzard prone areas.

I don't get enough snow around here for doing that sort of thing. I just get bitter cold and ice on everything. As a matter of fact, this last winter I slipped on some ice and cracked my ribs.

I'm super sensitive to cold, and y'all can laugh if you want, but I'm not going outside in winter without my huge sleeping bag.

"...if you had kids around. Assuming you could keep them distracted for 3 hours..."

Maybe make them the shovelers, rotating of course...