Lots of police out there, I see...

This is relevant to survival, and there are many police and ex-police on this forum that might be able to answer my question... How much flak am I going to be catching from authorities, while walking around the country on foot? I have proper ID and a mailing address, but will be hoofing it everywhere I go. "Vagrancy", "homelessness" might be words that they would use... Will any of this be a real problem for me?

Hi Chaotiklown,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ_OMThfhNs&feature=related

Just remember to have a good haircut, take a bath occassionaly and say 'Have a nice day' and you'll be fine

Good ID, obey all laws, have a good story (the truth is always best), and you shouldn't have much of a problem...

As my father has lamented about in the past, sleeping in public normally no longer gets you a rap on the bottom of your shoes with a night stick.

I think you biggest difficulty with other humans is not going to be with law enforcement, but it will be with others who don't know you and wonder what you are doing in their community or those who see you as a victim for a crime of opportunity.

I'm not exactly vulnerable, and not worried about opportunities of crime, all I can do is keep my eyes open. But what is the extent of what law enforcement can do to me, if a rap on my shoes is no longer applicable?

Neat appearance, friendly demeanor would go a long way.
Look more like a "backpacker" than a homeless vagrant.

Maybe have a backup story of "walking to find a cure for sick honeybees" or something. And be sure to have a spotless police record because you can be sure that you'll be checked for wants/warrants.

The knife in your possession *could* be an issue.


(On previously mentioned motorcycle trip I actually ate lunch with a motorcycle cop. I was glad for the company. )

Ok- Quick question on that subject... I've thought about the knives I'll be carrying... As long as it's properly concealed, it should not be a problem, right? I mean, with proper ID and no police record, they wouldn't be able to randomly search me, correct?

Officer can search your person "for his safety." That means he can frisk you for weapons before talking with you. Knife in your pack would require a warrant or probable cause. Knife on your belt--- could be an issue. (I'm not a lawyer. A lawyer would advise you to retain counsel in every jurisdiction you move thru - just to be sure.)

Search the 'net for knife law sites to review what you will encounter along your intended route.

You probably want to be legal. Probably that means no concealed weapons. You want to know what is considered a weapon. The laws and practices for carrying while hiking an established "wilderness" trail is almost certainly going to be different than walking down a street.

If you post a more detailed route here, you probably will get some detailed information.

Ain't America great!

Haha, yes- America is great, and there's a lot of good points that have been brought up here... If moving through a town, I should definitely keep it in my pack, and simply avoid this "probable cause" for search. Sounds good everybody, thanks!

Your on the internet right? And internet shares it's root word with interstate,right? So maybe you can email several police agencies/ Highway Patrols, townships,local branches of your religious affiliation, Freemasons, VFW, ALPHA KAPPA ZIPPO fraternity, etc? Just a friendly ' Hi, I'm walking through your area and want to be a polite guest and not cause undo concern. I am carrying this knife, but it's for spreading peanut butter, not a interstate crime spree, and I will be wearing a pink watchcap and my name is X.I helped plan teh route for two buddhist monks on a walking meditation THE LENGTH OF THE PCH. They stopped every third step and bowed in prayer and one took a vow of silence. I communicated with the three pacific state Highway patrols, several monasteries of several religions, local police etc. The only problem they encountered were a bunch of Hare Krishnas trying to convert them outside of Portland. I think half teh people we contacted went ahead and told other people, building an entire network of folks looking for the two monks.

:-) Excellent point- I'm actually in the process of compiling sites along my route that I can obtain information through.... Though I'm not sure if they'd buy the "spreading peanut butter" story, but I'll get creative!

Chris,

Great suggestion... If you contact certain municipalities before you head through, you may save a lot of grief. If an officer approaches you, the best thing you can do is tell them what you are carrying and wear it is. Since you are through hiking, it shouldn't be too bad.

Keep your appearence neat and always be curteous... That goes a long way.

Wouldn't hurt if you could get your hands on an FOP card. Sort of indicates that you are a "friend" to the police.

Excellent suggestion Chris but it depends on the locals. I did a series of week-long walks, as a prayer for peace and healing, back in the early '90s and sent letters to each County Sheriff's Office detailing what I was doing and when I expected to be walking through their county. For the most part the deputies I met on the walks were polite and professional and a few were very interested in what I was doing and friendly. In one county however, various deputies stopped by at least 3 times a day (their record was 7 times in one day) and tried to convince me to let them give me a ride to the next county. It took 2-3 days to get to the other side of that county and I was very glad to put it behind me each year.

Always keep forty or fifty dollars in your shoe.

When you're passing an LEO, make eye contact, nod and smile. You don't even have to speak. I used to work with a few ex-LEOs, and they said a guy passing them who studiously ignored them tended to raise their hackles. In London, it has even been known to get you arrested.

Don't talk to yourself in public.

Sue

Hi Sue,



Also don't attempt to walk cross the country whilst being naked either as you may get yourself arrested as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6542329.stm

Edinburgh Sheriff Isobel Poole ruled the case 'not proven'.

I'd recommend keeping a written journal. For your own memories of course, but it might also serve as a type of "log book" that could help prove your actions and whereabouts should a problem arise.

This is a definite- I will be keeping a written account of my trip:-) Although I didn't think about it creating an alibi... I shall keep it in mind:-)

I'm reminded of a line from the movie Braveheart.

"...they wouldn't be able to randomly search me, correct?..."

Wrong. A "pat down" search for the officers protection is court approved, happens all the time, day or night, any location. If the knife is in your pack (or whatever you use to carry your stuff), you should be OK. If it is on your body, then the type of knife comes in to play. In CA it is illegal to carry a "dirk or dagger" concealed on your body. In some counties, Los Angeles for one (at least in the '70's), the DA's office had decided that any folder with a locking blade was a "dirk or dagger." Lots of Buck 110's got lots of guys into trouble. A multi-tool or SAK, or your old Boy Scout knife, on the other hand, even if it has a locking blade, "probably" would not cause a problem...

And as for "protection," a stout hiking staff, combined with a little bit of training and practice would, in my humble opinion, be much better than just about any knife you might have (think Little John). I have been practicing a bit with my late mother-in-laws wooden cane, we have an upcoming trip out of the country and don't want the hassle of any knife in foreigh ports. Being old and worn out, no one will question a cane. Same with a hiking staff for a hiker...

Good luck with that. Several years ago, wanting some info on "local" laws, I send e-mails to the published addresses of several agencies in the Pacific northwest. Identified myself as a retired LEO. Got not one answer...

Probably pretty cool where he was hiking anyway...

Here are couple of sites I found searching "knife laws". Hope it helps and good luck in your journey.

http://www.knifelawsonline.com/knifehome/

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife.pdf

If you take the Appalachian trail, you'll most likely get no trouble even if you wander a ways off the trail. Well, don't quote me on that. There are jerks everywhere. However, a lot of people take the trail and if there were some constant trouble spots, you'd be able to find out online.

I am not an attorney or law enforcement. I do have friends who are....my humble 2¢...
IIRC you are carring a multi-tool, should not be a problem, even the more draconian laws allow up to 3" blades. Also it is arguable that it is more a tool than a knife. Don't push it with the police though, worst crime you can commit is POP...pi$$ing off police.
A small 3" locking folder for camp chores, fine cutting etc.... Will be easily explainable and probably not questioned unless in an urban situation like major cities. Have it in a pouch on your belt. In plain sight. So that way you are not carring it "concealed".
Ditch the bayonet. If its double edged like a lot are its a dagger...big no in many areas. Also with the attached wire cutter it could send the robber/destruction of property alarms on the local police. If for some reason you need to cut wire, try nicking the wire and using the pliars to wiggle it back and forth until it breaks. Or use your multi tools file.....
A four to five inch fixed knife on the belt while hiking is ok, in towns bury it in the backpack. Although it is now concealed it established two very imporant issues that are commonplace in a lot of leagal wordings. One, it is not "on ones person" per se, its in a pack. Two it is not readily accessable. Setting up a defence that you mean no harm with it. You use it when on the trails, in cities you pack it up where it is not needed.
Finally check the regulations on what size pepper spray you can leagally carry. Diffrent places put restriction on how many oz. The spray can be.
+1 on a hiking staff, it will help immeasurable while hiking. Ease your load, kill a pesky snake that doesn't want to go away, check water depth in streams you want to cross, cave in the skull of both two and four legged beasties that wish to do you harm. Hope this helps

-Bill Liptak

Rather than the bayonet, bring a pruning saw. Cheap, light, does what it does well.

I can't believe it but I actually dreamed about this topic this morning. Brian Denehy was the cop (he played the Sheriff in the 1st Rambo movie).


I was personally clean and spoke pleasantly with the officer so nothing happened. (Unlike John Rambo who was scruffy and sullen.)

The thing one wants to avoid at all times is even hinting at "contempt of cop" attitude.

Some cops, (bad ones I've read about, LAPD most notorious), will take the slightest of behavioral nuances and blow that up in their minds to the point of being willing to beat hell out of anyone that doesn't give them total awe and respect of their super-cop powers.

While this is arrogant BS and isn't right, the bottom line is that the cop has the gun, the taser, the nightstick, a fellow cop who will agree to your cop's story, the jail and the systemic presumption that whatever he says is the truth and you are presumed guilty and will be treated so until the jury starts to hear your case.

You'd best not give off the wrong signals when in contact.

All this is good to keep in mind- I also forgot something on the "my journey" post for my equipment- I do have a stout hiking staff, that's coming with me- I will keep my knives in mind, and when entering a town or city, I'll "bury" it in my backpack. That, I'd assume they would need a warrant if they wanted to search- and I don't have any intention of giving probable cause. I'm polite by nature, and will bring razors and equipment for personal grooming to make myself presentable. Thank you guys for all the info, this is a good bit to add to my mental-arsenal:-) Thanks!

Probable cause is defined very broadly by some LEOs, and even more so in some jurisdictions. Being quiet, polite, and well groomed may not be enough. If an LEO wants to search your pack he or she probably will and there is nothing you can do but politely state that you don't consent. Some LEOs have no problem stretching the law in order to enforce it. That being said, many LEOs that you meet will be a great help to you also, but they still may want to look in that bag first.

I had a friend that hitched and hiked across the country roughly 20 years ago, but he wasn't alone. He had a large, well trained German Shepherd dog with him. He said he didn't have a single problem except for one male driver propositioning him, and that guy was polite when politely turned down. The dog tended to bring out the best in good people and discourage others from bothering him. My friend and the dog were both quiet and kind but neither looked like easy targets either since they were both large for their breeds.
I don't know if he could make the same trip, with the dog that is, today or not.

Hey, I am late to this thread, I have been out-of-town.

Very interesting discussion.

Will your trip be only in the US or are you traveling to other countries?

Mike

You might consider getting a CCW permit, and then doing your walking without your gun (I think it would be very difficult to research all the local laws that might affect carry given that you're walking and have less control over what property you might cross).

I think it would put a cop at ease to hear, "Hello officer, I want to let you know that I have a CCW permit, but I am unarmed." This should let the police know that you're a good guy, because bad guys don't go through the trouble and expense of going through an FBI and state police background check on their own. Note: CCW permits are for firearms, they do NOT apply to knives (at least not here in Colorado).

Already have my concealed weapons permit for SC, all set with it- Have an FOP card on the way too possibly.

I'm not a cop, but I have acquired some wits over the years. Much or all of this might already be common sense to you.
I have done some walking myself. Once while walking across Arizona along the interstate at night, a highway patrolman stopped and ask me all sorts of questions including if I had any weapons on me. I showed him that I had my Bowie knife and my belt slung over my shoulder concealed under my jacket. He told me this was illegal. I honestly didn't know. I put it on my waist without any argument whatsoever, where it was in plain view, and he was happy. Always be polite and respectful of officers. They don't know who you are, and they wan't to spend as little time sweating the small stuff as you do. The nicer and more appreciative of their presence you are, the more helpful they will be.
As I was in the desert many miles away from any town, he was concerned whether I had enough water to get me through the next day. He filled my canteen and left, wishing me good luck or happy journeys or something like that.
Another thing, lockback folders are illegal in CA if they can be opened with a flick of the wrist. Weapons violations in CA are usually felonies, including double edged blades. If you have one of those loose lockbacks, you might want to tighten it so it requires two hands to open.
The greatest threat to you, or anyone out on his/her own, IMO, is from other people who might want to take advantage of you. Pranksters, thieves, rapists, kidnappers, and murderers are all out there. Be aware of everything going on around you, especially the people. It is generally thought that wanderers are either naive (just finding themselves...) or dangerous (on the run or looking to...). I try not to let people get either opinion of me, but I think I'd rather be thought of as respectable for no reason in particular other than that I don't appear or come across as naive or disrespectful. If I'm not looking or acting like I want my time wasted, I usually don't get messed with. Prolonged eye contact with strangers can be bad. A smile sometimes goes a long way, but then again, don't look naive or suggestive.
Be wary of who wants to help you, especially when you aren't in obvious trouble, and always be prepared to defend yourself. Make sure escape is always an option. If you accept rides, I'll only say that trusting people can be dangerous. Always keep a watch on people's hands, and listen carefully to the things people tell you. Don't be distracted by their eyes, and don't believe everything you hear. Be polite whenever possible and assertive whenever necessary. Take a reliable pepperspray, and don't feel it's sissy to keep it equipped on your belt within easy quick reach or in your jacket hand pocket. Self-defense laws can be tricky, so play it safe by using non-lethal methods. Remember that if you have to use your spray, to follow up by alerting the authorities. Have a cell phone. You want the bad guy to get arrested, and by the time he gets released to take revenge on you, you have already changed your shirt and are long gone.
Most importantly, I think, is to be careful of where you sleep. This is obviously when you are most vulnerable. If you can't find a campground or motel, light day-napping in a friendly populated place is safer than where you can be followed into isolation or stumbled upon in the night by no-gooders. If you sleep in a sleeping bag, be especially careful where you sleep, as they can be difficult to get out of in a hurry.
Also, keep some kind of itinerary, and check in with someone you trust every now and then, like every few days, but no longer than a week.
I know I sound a bit paranoid, and I hope I haven't detered you from your goals, but I seen some s#!t, so I don't mind rambling a little. I wouldn't be able to think of myself as friendly if I didn't. Happy Journeys!

I am a Missouri State Trooper. If you are contacted by an officer be polite and answer any questions honestly. Lay down your hiking staff and keep your hands empty and in plain sight. Make any movements slowly and only when directed to do so. If the officer decides to conduct a pat search, comply with his instructions. Yes, you can be searched by an officer of the opposite gender. Tell the officer if you are carrying a knife, pepper spray or anything that could be taken for a weapon. If you have to reach into a pocket that contains a knife or pepper spray, tell the officer it is there. We don't like surprises. Explain why you are hiking. You will most likely be asked for identification. A computer check to ensure that you do not have a warrant for your arrest will be conducted. Plan your overnight stops to be off the highway. We dislike having a report of a "man down" and finding out it is someone sleeping on the side of the road with out the good sense to be out of sight. Being clean and neat in personal appearence counts a lot towards creditability. Having good camping equipment adds to the overall appearence. DO NOT carry a knife that gives the primary appearance as a weapon. Bayonets are not a valid camping tool, they are designed to be a weapon. No "Rambo" knives, just something that looks like a camping tool. Your pack can be searched because it IS on your person. If you truly support the FOP that is a fine thing. Just carrying the card to quote "get in good with us" smacks of being phony. Things that appear phony cause further investigation. Don't BS, tell the truth. Different jurisdictions have different laws relating to weapons. Generally laws are more stringent in cities than in rural locations. If you are told you have violated a law, apoligize and inquire how to be in compliance, then do so. Be friendly and non threating to the officer. Hope this helps. Have a great journey seeing our wonderful country.

The "Officer safety search" is based on the Terry vs. Ohio doctrine. An officer can "frisk" you (a brief, cursory patdown) for weapons while he conducts a brief interview with you. This INCLUDES your backpack because it is within your immediate reach. Courtroom legalities can always be argued, of course, but officers make good-faith decisions everyday that span both sides of the blurry lines of legalese. During the frisk, an officer is looking for anything that could be a weapon which, of course, includes knives.

Concealing a knife is ok if you meant keeping it in your backpack. That's simply carrying it as opposed to concealing. It takes on a different meaning if you're concealing it on your person. In New Mexico, a person can carry a knife or gun in plain view - it becomes illegal when it's concealed. Many States have similar laws and I don;t know them all but concealing a weapon on your person is almost always illegal.

As far as being searched (frisked), I would think it's generally not going to happen (note use of the word "generally"). Most seasoned officers can size you up pretty quickly and a quick wants/warrants and criminal history check, coupled with your truthful story of just "hiking across the country" will be more than enough. Keep your hands in his sight at all times and, when asked for ID, be deliberate. If your ID is in your backpack, for example, let the officer know where it is before you go digging for it.

DON'T immediately say you have a knife or weapon here or there, just answer the officers questions. Without a doubt, you'll be asked if you have any weapons or contraband. THEN you can say you have a knife here or there.

I don;t see a problem. Police are regular people, which means you'll get treated differently not necessarily by location, but by individual personality. Some are more aggressive and assertive, others more relaxed and congenial. Some are new and others experienced - some are wise and others not so wise. ALL of them, while dealing with you, will be watching every move your eyes and body makes, and listening to how you respond to questions. As I said, experienced officers will know intuitively "who" you are in a very short time, the same way a dog seems to sense danger or ill-intent from a person.

In my opinion, everybody seemed to have some good advice, but OBG's, Susan's, and Trooper366's posts especially caught my attention.

There are alot of good, well-intentioned people walking or bicycling across the country and police officers know this. I think you'll be fine.

Trooper gave some excellent real world advice but...

If I'm on the jury, the contents of the backpack is NOT admissable because getting inside the pack is no more accessible than getting into the trunk of the car and pulling everything in there out and putting it on the ground including dumping the toolbox out.

Accessible stuff on the outside- yes. Stuff on the inside nope. This juror calls BS on it.

Heck, I've been unable to find a couple of items that I was sure were in my pack. Could only find them after the pack was completely unloaded at home or in camp.

But I don't get to make the law and usually am dismissed from the jury pool for suggesting I get to judge the law. (Fully Informed Jury)

Being friendly and open will preclude having one of these experiences.

Just one question... what is a FOP card?

"...what is a FOP card..."

It is more of an east coast thing, Fraternal Order of Police, or something close...

You are correct... Fraternal Order of Police. As opposed to a PBA - Patrolmen's Benevolent Association. Both are organizations of police officers with FOP being the larger organization.

If you carry one of the cards, it shows that you support the police force, either you are an immediate friend or family of an officer. Often, out of courtesy, a policer officer may show leniancy.

I've done this (sort of) by bike, with a few other guys. No agenda, no destination, just a bunch of guys with bikes loaded up with gear up in the hills of Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. We learned, quickly, to seek out and introduce ourselves to local law enforcement or fire services. "Hi! We're a bunch of guys doing a bike tour of the northeast - do you know of a place that will let us camp out for free tonight? Oh, and we could really use some water for our water bottles." The truth is ALWAYS the best approach. In every case, we were treated like guests of the town, asked about where we were and where we were going, and why we were doing it. One time, we were directed to a park, another to a church basement. One time, we ended up in a hayloft. All was fun.

Thanks guys, sounds like some pretty good advice- I'd imagine authorities would be slightly more resentful to me, being how I'll be on foot and alone, than on bikes with a group... But the courtesy applies the same- Can't hurt to be honest, can only help...

If you come to Santa Monica, you'll attract about as much attention as a moth on a light bulb down at the corner pub.

"...come to Santa Monica..."

Or just about anywhere else in CA between sea level and 2000 (or so) feet...

???? Could you guys elaborate on this please? What's the deal with Santa Monica? Are you guys saying this is a good idea, or a bad one?

The question that I would like to have an answer to from our LEO types concerns the carrying of a Flare Pistol (12ga) while camping/hiking in the woods.

Please keep in mind that I don't think there is any question of carrying such a signaling device in a drought stricken area, but what about the areas that are not drought stricken or under a "burn ban"?????

Every jurisdiction has different laws, so the best course is to check with local authorities first. Having said that, I'll talk about my area. A Flare Pistol can be considered a firearm in Missouri, so all the firearm laws apply.
If I came across one in the course of my duties, I would look at the total situtation. Does the person appear to be what he says he is, i.e. someone enjoying the outdoors with other outdoor gear or does he appear to be a thug. If he only had the pistol and flares I would lean towards it being used for its manufactured purpose. My thoughts would go along the lines of: Does it appear to be a signaling device(blaze orange color, made of plastic, etc.)or does it appear to be a "sawed off" shotgun? Does the person also have normal shotshells that could be used in the pistol? If he does and has no other shotgun I would view the item as either a "sawed off" shotgun or a smooth bore pistol, both illegal weapons.
I belive in the individual's right to lawfully have and use firearms(NRA member), so I try to give the benifit of the doubt to the person.
Hope this helps.

Thanks Trooper for that info. I carry 3 expired flare rounds and 3 new flare rounds. I intend to take it with me when I go canoeing/camping but I think it would cause serious legal issues to carry it backpacking/camping.

I have a Navy Mk V Flare Pistol which originally was issued as a 10ga but I have reduced it's bore to a 12ga to make use of commercially available flare rounds. No, It is not orange colored but an aluminum barrel with a plastic handle/receiver.

What are your thoughts??

If space and weight are not a problem, carry all your "expired" flares.

I'm not gonna take the time to look up pressures, etc, but I suspect that anyone who touched off a round of real 12ga shotgun ammo in an aluminum barrelled, plastic handled/receivered flaregun would be in for a nasty surprise...

In an aluminum barrel with a receiver that is primarily plastic sheathed/shielded by thin aluminum, even a low velocity shotgun shell would cause the barrel to either crack, peel like a banana, and/or blow up in your face.

That's REALITY for even the Navy MK V.

The cool thing about the Navy MK V is that it was the first sidearm I carried on a Boarding Team (as the Signalman) along with a Riot Shotgun. The GI issued holster allows for about 3" of the (10 ga) barrel to stick out the bottom. The sailors onboard the boats that we were boarding were often amazed at what kind of "Hand Cannon" was it that I was packing, beside the shotgun.