Outward Bound hikers lost

Posted by: Angel

Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/25/08 08:33 PM

11 hikers lost this time. Hope they find them safe. Here's the story... http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MISSING_HIKERS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US
Posted by: Angel

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/25/08 09:53 PM

Just read that they were all found safe. The story didn't give any details, just that they hiked out on their own. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MISSING_HIKERS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US
Posted by: Angel

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 02:13 AM

Here are a few more details. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MISSING_HIKERS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US
I would think all the guides would have a sat phone. Could have avoided a search.
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 04:06 AM

"...have a sat phone. Could have avoided a search..."

Not always. I have seen NPS Rangers in the Mojave Desert, clear sky, no trees (duh), no cliffs (nearby), no nothing, be unable to make or receive calls on a sat phone...
Posted by: SwampDonkey

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 10:58 AM

My experience with Sat. Phones is the same as OBG.

I have carried a Globalstar Sat. Phone for about 4 years. At first it worked great but in the past 2 years I was unable to place calls due to poor coverage. Only in the past couple of months have I been able to actually make a few calls.

Mike
Posted by: climberslacker

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 01:20 PM

Maybe it has something to do with the military using the satalites in Iraq?
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 02:11 PM

It has to do with expense. Getting all Sat phones would increase cost so much they would have to drop one of the instructors from the trip. They are on a quite tight budget. An instructor is much
more useful than a Sat phone.
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 02:20 PM

If I understand the article correctly, they did have a sat phone.

One of their leaders was scouting ahead, solo, and took the phone with him.

When the group didn't show up at the prearranged meeting place, he used the phone to bring in help.
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 03:40 PM

Originally Posted By: courierdebois
typical outward bound cheap cheezy macho crapola.. we are gonna fight momm a nature and win.." blah-blah.. my 2 courses in outdoor survival at 2 different comm colleges featured : ex viet nam vet /air born ranger type.. hillbilly from Pa.. and the other teacher was same, hillybilly from south ohio.. ex usaf.. radio intercept guy and special projects dude stationed in deuthchland, 1/2 kilometer from the fence"..i mean, who would u rather be lost out in the boonies with? your average nols or outward bound type, once they lose their 1800$ of back pack equipment produced in the 3rd world for like 43.57$-sold in us of A for 1800$ they are n big trouble..u keep challenging momma nature, u are in big trouble.. in hillyheaven where i grew up in upstate ny, allegheny mnt area- the old saying,we are not out of the woods -yet"applies..


Your instructors sound like outward instructors.
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: climberslacker
Maybe it has something to do with the military using the satalites in Iraq?


Depending on which type of sat phone depends on which sats they communicate with... Either GEO or LEO.

The military does not task out commercial sats into different orbits. The orbits for the commercial sat phones are very much determined.

The non-reception really has to deal with available sats in the sky and surrounding terrain and available ground station if applicable.
Posted by: climberslacker

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 04:19 PM

Oh, thanks Mike! My mom, was like "do you wanna do outward bound this sumer?" And I said " No, not really because the kids who do it hav never been out before, and I know more about suvival/first aid/wilderness then they do, so it would not really be fun..."
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 04:26 PM

Not a problem. I'm somewhat of a space nut. I follow most things related to the space program.

You would get more out of a good hiking/camping trip with the scouts then Outward Bound. I think the purpose of the program is more to teach leadership, self reliance, teamwork, etc... to those that need it. Scouts typically already have these skills. Would probably be an interesting trip tho, esp. if you are prepared and know more than some of the leaders...

Imagine a scenario... You are out hiking with them, you set camp for the night, and you whip out your alcohol stove and make a nice freezer bag dinner whilst others are just chomping down on some granola...
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 04:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_H
Depending on which type of sat phone depends on which sats they communicate with... Either GEO or LEO.

GEO? I am not familiar with this abbreviation.

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: JCWohlschlag

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 04:36 PM

LEO = Low Earth Orbit
GEO = Geosynchronous (Orbits at the same RPM as the earth, so the satellite stays over the same spot on the equator all the time)

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: JCWohlschlag
GEO = Geosynchronous (Orbits at the same RPM as the earth, so the satellite stays over the same spot on the equator all the time)

Thank-you.

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 04:51 PM

You are almost 100%. I should have spelled out the TLAs... (Three Letter Acronyms...) ;-)

I did intend to have GEO mean Geosynchronus. There is also Geostationary. Geostationary is always in the same position in the sky (over the equator), the only place where it could stay in the sky in the same place at the same time.

Geosynch is always in the same place in the sky at the same time... slightly different.

GPS uses MEO (Medium Earth Orbit) are are typically more visible from the ground than LEOs due to their higher altitude.

XM radio uses 2 (well, actually 4) Geostationary sats... The original ones were name 'Rock' and 'Roll'. The new ones are 'Rhythm' and 'Blues'. These last 2 are the new 'active' ones with the orignal 2 held as spares.

Sirius uses Geosynchronus sats.
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_H
Not a problem. I'm somewhat of a space nut. I follow most things related to the space program.

You would get more out of a good hiking/camping trip with the scouts then Outward Bound. I think the purpose of the program is more to teach leadership, self reliance, teamwork, etc... to those that need it. Scouts typically already have these skills. Would probably be an interesting trip tho, esp. if you are prepared and know more than some of the leaders...

Imagine a scenario... You are out hiking with them, you set camp for the night, and you whip out your alcohol stove and make a nice freezer bag dinner whilst others are just chomping down on some granola...


OB is designed for students of all ages and strives to put them
in new situations for growth. So if you are already a climber or
backpacker you would likely choose a course such as a sailing
or dog sledding course. We can all use more "leadership, self reliance, teamwork, etc" and courses are tailored to different
age groups, time frames, experience etc.

I like scouts too, been through it through explorer scouts and
it is a good way to keep you off the streets and teach some of
the same valuble skills in leadership and outdoor skills etc.
When my little boy grows enough I plan to start him in scouts.

The outward bound schools will teach some cutting edge skills
that may not be available to scouts outside of say Philmont.

For example the advanced climbing course at OB uses techniques
used by the American Mountain Guides Association. You would get
to try the latest anchoring practices etc.

The instructors are wonderful interesting people who
generally work part time at OB because they like to teach.
It is sort of a semi-volunteer job as the wages won't
allow someone to raise a family.

Some of the instructors I have worked with at OB have been:

College professors in geology, hydrology, botany, search and
rescue, recreation, education, biology, computer science,
wine making, and just about any other subject you can name.

Also

Air force survival instructors
a marine sergeant who taught at the Marine Corps' mountain training center
kiwi and english mountaineers
ultramarathoners
rock climbers that have climbed El Cap in a day
Everest summiters and guides
Alaskan Mountain guides
Organic Farmers

Many people will take an OB course during some life transition
such after graduation, job change etc. Sort of a rite of passage
and to have time away to think.

It is also a great place to get in good shape.

It works best when people are invested, want to go, and like
a challenge. They have some scholarships too.

If it paid better I would still be an Outward Bound Instructor
as it is great to see how people grow and get such a kick out
of their trips.
Posted by: quakedog

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 05:48 PM

<iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/25366549#25366549" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe> Nightly News on the Hikers

I've seen this survival technique listed as a way to stop panic if lost - singing or whistling. I and my two other 13 year old friends went backpacking for 10 days in the American River Canyon. What were our parents thinking? We were all fairly experienced in the wild but... K.O. and I went off for a day hike leaving Chris behind to fish at the lake we were camping near. We only took a bit of water and some food with us, no map, no compass, no nothing. Canyons are potentially dangerous places to hike. They are littered with dry river beds and once you get off trail, each river bed and small hill all end up looking alike. It was summer of 1975, not a particularly hot day but dry enough for us to start panicking about water, rattlesnakes, buzzards over head following us and also putting our friend left behind in danger. I led K.O. and I for 8 hours in a huge loop that took us back to the beginning of our trail, we were 3 days into our 10 day trip. Instincts took over my radar and something else had us whistling for a good 6 hours of that “trip”. Knowing where the sun was at all times also was a huge help.

The 11 hikers in the Sierra’s were at 9000 feet. California still has snow at that level and this week has been weather challenged. They will find themselves safely home.

Survival Girl: <a href="http://www.quakedog.com/survivalkits">http://www.quakedog.com/survivalkits</a>
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 05:49 PM

Originally Posted By: thseng
Perhaps I missed it, but is there any info on why
the group did not make the rendezvous?


I didn't see this either, but my guess would be that the
Instructors were letting the students make their own navigation
decisions near the end of a course. I am sure the
instructors knew where they were (Courtwright Reservoir and
Florence Lake areas are open and easy to navigate around) but may have needed to step in a bit
earlier to help with the navigation. There are streams
there that could cause quite a bit of extra walking to a safe
crossing if you ended up in the wrong spot.
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 05:57 PM

clearwater,

Thanks for the very informative info on OB! Great to get some first hand info.

Mike
Posted by: Dan_McI

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 06:01 PM

quakedog, a new poster. Welcome. Stick around.
Posted by: north_of_north

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 09:16 PM

Attached links may be useful to explain the orbits in question. Regards.

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n07/

http://calgary.rasc.ca/geo_orbits.htm
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/26/08 11:45 PM

Welcome Newguy!!!
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/27/08 02:15 PM

Courierdebois,

What is your background in outdoor survival?
Posted by: JohnN

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/27/08 03:11 PM


FWIW, I don't know if OB is a ripoff, if in general its instructors have what here would consider a good background, but from the perspective of analyzing the specific event, these issues only seem tangentially related.

What we do know, is:

1) They walked out on their own power w/o injury.
2) They had some snags in their internal communication and/or planning.

Personally, I'd be more interested in information and analysis about the specific event.

-john
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/27/08 03:59 PM

I have seen the operating costs involved. The tuition,
like most private non-profit schools, doesn't cover the expenses.
Outward Bound relies on donations, mostly from alumnus.

The issue gear is the most basic (tarps, cookpots, packs, inexpensive sleeping bags etc.). Food is typical thru-hiker
fare (noodles, rice, dried veggies and fruit, canned meat
and soy) This is done partly for expense and partly
to teach students how to make the most with little and appreciate what they have.

I believe NOLS is the same way. I spent a summer
working out of Lander, and everybody I met were salt of the
earth people. I didn't see any animosity, even got invited
to a sundance ceremony.

At fundraisers for the scholarship programs, I have seen instructors donate part or all of their summers wages. It is
something they believe in.

One other thing, OB pays commercial fees to the forest service
and national parks just like the horse packers etc. and
it can be hundreds of dollars for a one week trip.


I hope I am not just egging on a troll.
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/27/08 06:11 PM

We've got your back clearwater!
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/28/08 05:23 PM

Implying someone is a fool or lying is trollish.

What part of private non profit don't you get?

I've had quite a few kids from all over the country and the
world. From Inuit kids from Pt Barrow to kids from Panama.
Worked with instructors that were were black, latino, American
Indian. Some polite hillbillies too. I find it offputting
that you denigrate the ranchers and others in Wyoming too.

Besides being ignorant of the topic you're inflammatory.
Posted by: JohnE

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/28/08 08:07 PM

In regard to "courierdebois" comments about joining the military reserves to get "ranger training" I could be wrong but I don't think any reserve unit in the U.S. military is gonna get "ranger training" doing 1 weekend a month and a week of summer camp.

Other than that, he/she/it is pretty entertaining to read...some serious anger issues going on I think, but as I wrote above, I could be wrong...;^)

John E
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/29/08 12:37 AM

"...entertaining to read..."

I am "entertained" (when I have nothing better to do) counting the misspellings and made up words, not to mention the lack of caps...
Posted by: wolf

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/29/08 06:19 AM

If it drags its knuckles, grunts and lives under a bridge...
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Outward Bound hikers lost - 06/29/08 12:08 PM

I appreciate clearwater's posts concering the OB program. Seems to be the most informative.