Importance of just a little bit of preparation

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5828457.html

I wonder what make/model it was? I need to get one before my deep sea fishing trip out in the Gulf.

Though first I need to talk DW into letting me go deep sea fishing. For some reason she's afraid I'll do something dumb with a shark. I figure as long as the shark doesn't have fleas* I should be okay.

-Blast

*that's a sutble hint that I'm okay again with cat jokes. Grieve hard but fast then move on.

I am not a boat person, but if I were, I always figured that I would have an ACR strobe on me all the time, just in case...

"...I'm okay again with cat jokes. Grieve hard but fast then move on..."

Glad to hear it! As Gus said in Lonesome Dove, "yesterday's gone, you can't get it back." That works for me...

I carry a Princeton Tec Strobe for when I'm in a boat or canoe. It floats light side up and is water tight to a pretty crazy depth (designed for use with divers). I usually tie one end to 10 feet of cord and the other end to myself somehow.

It's almost perfect IMO...it just can't turn itself on.

Again a lesson; People 'get religion' about being prepared and then panic if they don't have a fancy knife, year's supply of food and water and an ER of medical gear.It takes so very little to have an edge- even if that edge is a cheap Mora or flahslight.

+1 on the strobe. A flashlight gets used as a flashlight and then when you really need it the batteries are weak. A dedicated strobe won't be used except to check its condition. If you go over the battery should be fully charged. While you're at it get a good signal mirror (as in the D.R. PSP).

Does anyone have This one?

If so could you right just a little review for all of us?

+1 on the ACR strobe, have one on the stab jacket when diving. Always have fresh batteries or fully charged rechargeables, done the night before.

I have no idea of the models, but most of the lights for life jackets I've seen in my life are like those in the link provided by climberslacker. They have been simple little lights, with a battery and a flashlight battery. I've also had a strobe.

Both would always be better than none. If you have one, I think you'd pick based on your conditions. The strobes are far brighter and far easier to see than the other ones I've seen used. I'd check out the times each was expected to last when choosing.

However, if you expect to be in an area with a good amount of traffic, take the strobe.

I keep an ACR Firefly Plus strobe/flashlight combination in my signaling/communication module. It was a bit larger than I originally expected (5 oz and 5.3" long - my local outfitter had to special order it and I hadn't really checked the specs carefully enough) although the range (2 miles) is simply awesome.

I also picked up a tiny little Pelican Mini Flasher LED last winter (somewhat because I thought it was "cute", although I felt it might be useful to attach to something that I wouldn't want to loose - the backpacker in front or behind me on the trail at night, my tent when I hike off in the middle of the night to relieve myself, or even a knife or hatchet that I am using and could otherwise misplace in the leaves).

Jim

Cats are great companions to have while shark fishing!

The faceless pig scares me....You can't tell he's evil "by the look in his eye."

Ain't that the truth. I have this weird vision of some creepy young kid wandering through the neighborhood with it and peering into windows...

-Blast, low on sleep

FWIW, the Fenix P1D lights are very small and can be very bright. More importantly in this context, they have a strobe (and SOS).

I have one of these "premium Q5s" on my keychain.

Yah, they are expensive, but so small and versatile and there is no excuse not to have it with you.

FWIW, my primary EDC is an HDS EDC U85, which also has a strobe (HDS EDC is out of production, it will be replaced by the Ra Clicky in Aug.).

Both of these lights are at least as bright as the benchmark Surefires (E2e, 6P).

These LED based lights with strobe are very bright, efficient, small and reliable.

-john

Strobes in flashlights are fine if you know where to point the flashlight. At sea you really want an omni-directional strobe so that all you need to do is turn it on and then get on with your primary job of keeping your head above water. IMO they are very lucky the helo crew was able to see the flashlight.

Sure, but compared to the guy with the cheap flashlight which was probably not that bright, only had a pretty small runtime and didn't have a strobe....

What I'm trying to say is that with these kinds of lights, there is no excuse not to always have them.

In reality, they needed a PLB, and strobes on each of the flotation devices.

-john

Hi Russ,

Just add a Fenix Tip Diffuser to make the little Fenix Digital P1D Olive Premium Q5 into a reasonable little omni-directional strobe. Should be good for a good few miles visability.

I like Fenix lights, I have two of them and while they are bright and have nice light options (strobe, SOS, Turbo et al), they are not waterproof, only dunkable. With saltwater, a dunkable light might not work at all. The cheap light this guy got from his local sporting goods store was reported as waterproof.

If I was going to sea, I'd go with dedicated gear designed to get real wet, dunkable is fine for non-survival gear, not for gear your life hangs on.

Hi Russ,

The Fenix P1D-CE is IPX-8 rated according to the manufacturers website.

http://www.fenixlight.com/viewproduct.asp?id=35

IPX-8 -'Protected against water submersion - The equipment is suitable for continual submersion in water under conditions which are identified by the manufacturer.'

IPX-8 has to be greater than IPX-7, which means that it has to be at least 1m depth for at least 30 minutes or greater.

Its certainly not a SCUBA flashlight but would be perfectly useable at the surface to be used for improvised signalling.


PPPPPP, definitely!!

There is enough unit-to-unit variation in the Fenix lights that I wouldn't count on this.

The bigger problem is run-time. How many night-time hours were they in the water before being picked up? The light has to last that long with no battery changes.

While I agree the HDS is by far the cream of the crop it is not buoyant. This is a case where a cheap plastic float strobe that can be seen from any direction is better than the gold-plated best-money-can-buy gadget.

A CNN article said the flight crew didn't see the light directly, but while using their night vision goggles. I am assuming that the light from a cell phone would do the same?

It is truly amazing how a small forethought can make the difference between living and dying.

"Coast Guard Lt. Justo Rivera, who was flying the aircraft that rescued the men, told CNN affiliate KHOU that a flashlight helped save them. While conducting search patterns, Coast Guard members spotted the light through their night vision goggles, Rivera said. It was being held by one of the men.

He said that because the Coast Guard was searching such a vast area, the flashlight was "instrumental" in the rescue.

'It's your proverbial needle in a haystack,' Rivera told KHOU."

[http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/09/sailors.rescued/?iref=mpstoryview]

FWIW, I think a light like the Fenix P1D is going to have pretty wicked visibility in something like a 90 degree cone at night. Even more so with night vision, which I would assume is SOP for night rescue (not much point being out there if you can't see).

Considering search patterns, I think this would make a huge difference over no light, or a non-strobe light.

Also, having and looking at the Fenix, I'd say it is likely to be pretty reliable in water. These are sturdy and reasonably constructed little lights.

Also, FWIW, the strobe could really help in the case of a land based rescue, esp. if they were searching by plane/helicopter w/night vision.

That said, as Russ said, the big problem is that you have to hold it. As you get tired and hypothermic, you aren't going to be able to hold it. And you might need your hands for other reasons.

All in all, as I said, it isn't an excuse not to prepare for whatever endeavor you are planning on -- but I do think they are powerful little tools that, as the thread suggests, could go a long way if caught unawares. And the thing is so small, there is no reason NOT to have it on you.

Remember the James Kim story -- at least at one point they used thermal imaging. Obviously a fire would have helped a lot....

-john


Edit: Well, a cell phone *might* do it, but the less effective the tool, the smaller the chance it will make the difference. And a cell phone is very unlikely to be very effective (and easily damaged by salt water).

That's the great thing about LED based lights with strobe capabilities. The light is only active a small fraction of the time giving really good runtime.

-john

Interesting. I hadn't seen that rating on a Fenix, many are only dunkable such as the P1D CE on the same page in your link.

This is a strange and bizarre day, a nice RAF woman gave me an ACR 2000 today, I get home and find this thread. Thursday, I'm off flying so its coming with me now. Still in event of a problem, I think I'll be OK. I'm having a jolly on the navy SAR Helo.

FWIW, the Fenix lights are constantly evolving. It is possible it is just due to improvements. The Q5 light I got is a brand new LED, and as a result it would follow that it has all the mechanical improvements they have made over time.

As usual, buyer beware. Research should be done on the specific item being purchased and it should be evaluated after you get it.

-john

I keep a Firefly 3 attached to every life jacket. http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/151463/377%20710%201214/0/Lights,%20Strobes%20/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/20/0?N=377%20710%201214&Ne=0&Ntt=Lights,%20Strobes%20&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=8&subdeptNum=50&classNum=51

With lithium batteries, which are good for ten years, the units will be there and operational if we ever need them. I have an older model that is more than 6 years old. It works fine. I test them a couple of times a season and replace the batteries every three to four years.

I also carry a flashlight (usually a Surefire A2) on a lanyard, but I would think trying to signal with it would get tiring. It is more of a backup, and useful on the boat for low light tasks.

On a couple of life jackets I also have a pouch with two orange flares, a mirror a cheapie survival knife, and a whistle.

The rule on my boat is that lifejackets are optional for adults (mandator for the kids) until the wind hits 25 knots or the seas four feet. Then its mandatory.

All this and I rarely go more than a mile off shore. I guess I have been reading this site too long.

No you haven't been reading this site too long, you are guilty of utilizing common sense. You have obviously learned that when things go bad, they go very bad, very quickly.

I think I'd sail with you!

Look carefully...it appears to be a rhino, not a faceless pig...(visions of Pink Floyd *shudder*)

Might I suggest the Glo-Toob fx as a strobe/electrical lightstick. Available from Brigade Quartermaster or TAD gear (sorry I don't have a clue as how to link stuff, need to get with the misses and fix that). The glo-toob is waterproof to a mere 11,000 feet making it a pretty good choice for water activities. The fx model is "programmable" with 7 light pattern options from constant on, several intermitant patters, and the sos pattern. They also make a basic on/off model. Comes in a variety of led color choices.

-Bill Liptak

So far the Firefly 3, the ACR MS-2000, or the 'Princeton Tec: Aqua Strobe Light' look like they might be good choices for my husband. Thank you OBG, DesertFox and Hacksaw for sharing those. My husband has quite a bit of emergency gear for sailing, but not a good strobe light. He would have to decide which of those he likes best.

Do you think a good waterproof headlamp would be a good thing to also have on your person while sailing? Maybe one like one of these - though NOT to replace the strobe light: http://onkayaks.squarespace.com/waterproof-headlamps/

Or any of these waterproof Princeton Tec's (the link won't work): http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/sto...dkey=SiteSearch

I haven't found anything about how Roger Stone, the man who saved the 2 students, died. Just that he was apparently trapped. I did find this about him: http://www.nowpublic.com/sports/u-s-coas...ilboat-capsized

I remember posting here years ago about a similar story where a man was trapped underwater - here is the paragraph from that story: (Sail Magazine 12/2003 - special issue on safety at sea) where one of the survivors had to cut his safety line to keep from drowning. John Rogers, the survivor said: "I was on deck, clipped on with my safety harness, and suddenly found myself trapped under water in complete darkness. Fortunately, I had immediate access to my knife, as I could not get the safety clip on my tether undone and had to cut myself free. I found my way out from under the boat, inflated my PFD, and started looking around and calling for other survivors."

He said in the subtitle of this article: "In the ultimate survival test, it's the gear in your pockets that counts the most!"

Joy

Nope, I still see pig.

-Blast

Looks like a hippo to me.

I have a couple glotoobs... they're OK. I have a red and green; green is definetely brighter. I believe there's also amber and white.

Available with 2 different battery types, with the CR123 being slightly higher price.

Probably would be good, but I don't know if they float. I suppose I could try it and report back later tomorrow. However, the run time isn't all that phenomenal. I put one on the dog collar for night walks, and it probably lasted ... 10-15 hours, maybe. In other words, if you're out of the boat more than 1 night, you might want something else, or at least several of them. Not sure how effective a battery change would be at sea.

Cellphones might work, but the second you get them wet they're pretty useless.

Yeah, please see if they float, that would be cool!

What about a pelican mini flasher?

http://pelican.com/lights_detail.php?recordID=2130

Just assuming that the glo-toobs float and have a reasonable run time wouldn't the IR versions be better for search and rescue. I don't know too much about night vision googles, which "light" would be more visible through NVG's, the xenon strobe or IR Led?

Keep in mind there are all sorts of LEDs.

The ones in the Glo Toobs are smaller and not super powerful, and reflected off an internal surface.

Also note the Mini Flasher as referenced above, also has a wimpy LED (and only one -- less than the Glo Toobs).

While I like and have some of the 'Toobs, the new LEDs like in the Fenix P1D Q5 are HUGELY brighter.

In reality, it would be interesting if Glo Toob re-spun the 'Toob with a modern, high-output LED.

The Glo Toobs don't float.

Also note there is now a lithium powered (123A) Glo Toob which probably has much better runtime than the old FX model.

Some Glo Toob pics.

My guess is that a Xenon strobe would beat a Glo Toob easily, regardless of visible or IR.

Bottom line is the Glo Toob is a marker light, not a rescue beacon. Ditto the Mini Flasher (actually, I'd consider the Mini Flasher more of a novelty than a real marker light).

-john


EDIT: BTW Joy, if you are interested in headlamps, check out the Zebralight H30-Q5. Sturdy, three output levels, bright, small/light and it has a great flood light which is great for task lighting. H30 Review.

FWIW, (in general) I haven't found that Petzl takes waterpoofing too seriously. The Duo LED is also a pretty old design, and personally I wouldn't put it on a short list.

While I don't know about their newer designs, the Princeton Tech Yukon HL does a better job waterproofing than the Petzl, but it is a pretty dated model.

Also note, in general it is a lot harder to seal the battery compartments on lights like this vs the Zebralight style. Zebralight got it right. Less is more.

Another good alternative (although expensive) is the StenLight S7. Review.

I have the white CR123 - doesn't seem to float, nad supposidly has a VERY long runtime - I think in the 100 hour range (not that I've tried it - the blackout over here on Monday night lasted all of 30 seconds, so..)

Edit:
John, besides a marker lamp, I've already tried this - they actally make an OK "desk lamp" in blackout conditions. I've said before that I'm a ham that works with ARES. Sometimes we get called out for blackouts. Sitting there with the rig on, the glotube gives off more than enough light to take notes on your clipboard, fill out your log (I log EVERY transmisson in those situations - time and what was said - in a BOUND book, just in case) You would be surprized how BRIGHT a little bit of light is in total darkness

NYC's power grid almost failed again these last two days - I REALLY need to spend some cash on a generator, as I have sleep apenia, and I should not sleep without the machine (it does have a 12 volt plug, and a 20 Ah batter would get me through a night, and I havce a LOT more than that around)

JohnN,

You're probably right, I was just questioning the appearance, visibility as "seen" through NVG's.

Given the choice I'd take both, have a strobe as a visible and comforting indicator that I'm trying to save myself and possibly others. And a IR marker to assist those trying to find me. Assuming that a IR marker has a "better", ie more visible signature to night vision equipment. OK possibly not a Glo-toob, but there must be others, I don't know, like I said I've no experience of either NVG's or IR markers.

Re: Task use with the Glo Toob. Agreed. People don't realize how little light they need to do many close at hand tasks.

This is part of the reason I really like the HDS lights. They set the default 'low' for .3 lumens where most mfgs set theirs for 3 lumens or more. It provides enough light to do what you need and the runtime is basically forever given the high efficiency LEDs.

-john

A little light can often get you through a tough spot. On a dark night most of what your going to do is at arms length. You don't need a a huge spotlight. Also, as the story shows, even a small light can be seen a long way off at night.

This hints that it pays to have a small light, appropriate to your situation, with you pretty much all the time.

It also points out that you can do a lot with a little and that in survival, as with anything else, there is a point of diminishing returns. Imagine if this guy had decided that yes, he wanted a flashlight but that he wanted a real man's light. He walk past the inexpensive compact model and gets a six D-cell Maglight. Figures he can spotlight frogs with it back home. It is a great manly device impressive in size and output. Once he pays for batteries he is out better than $30.

So he goes on this trip schlepping a huge flashlight. It is too big to keep in a pocket and too heavy to hold all the time. He stuffs it in a duffel bag and figures when he needs it he can dig it out. Problem is that things went south pretty quick. There wasn't a whole lot of time to grab anything. His $30 flashlight is sitting on the bottom and it took the duffel bag with it.

Man oh man it would have been a great flashlight for signaling. He could attract attention from miles away. But because it was bulky and heavy he didn't have it on him. And because it cost so much he didn't buy both the Maglight and the smaller unit. So now he is bobbing in the Gulf without a light. Unhappy camper.

The lessons are that more is not always better. That money, space and your ability to carry weight is always limited. That a little something on your person can be better than a much more capable model where you can't get to it when you need it.

I like large Maglights. I keep a six D-cell model in my truck. It is impressive in its heft and size, quite phallic really (I get odd sidelong looks from the ladies when they see it) and very useful. On a rainy night I can spot a house number at nearly a quarter mile. Changing a tire I just set it back twenty feet and it illuminates the the entire area. Helping me see what I'm doing and letting people know I'm there.

Held by the head over the shoulder it makes addressing intruders on job sites at night a lot easier. Looking into the light is like talking to God. And, even though I have never had cause to use it that way, it is clearly a capable bludgeon. My big Maglight is useful. But when I step out I generally don't carry it. Instead I have a small AAA led light that is a lot handier.

Because sometimes less is more.

On another thread we were talking about boys and their toys. However, I too like my D cell Mag-Lite . . . which I only carry in my bigger bag.

Jeanette Isabelle

Hi Art_in_FL

I generally keep a Fenix LOD-CE with a rechargeable Lithium ion 10440 cell beside a Leatherman Charge Ti EDC



The tiny AAA Fenix will gives a light output equivalent to Fenix P1D-CE which on high is around 130 Lumen which is brighter than a Maglite 5D flashlight and just short of a Maglite 6D. It blows away a 3-D Mag.

Your eye is much more sensitive to green than red. Any green light will appear brighter than a red light of equal optical power, even though the red light is actually emitting more photons.

But this might not be the same with "night-vision" goggles such as those used to find these people: those sensors might be equally sensitive to red and green, or might even do better in red, especially when the higher photon flux is considered.

This might be an interesting test for Doug at some point: are red or green LEDs easier to spot with the usual night-vision search gear? Green is better for the naked eye but for a boat it might be better to assume searches at sea are only conducted with night-vision goggles.

Hi Joy. I have noticed that the Coast Guard crews in NYC use a strobe that looks exactly like the Firefly, though I can't swear they are the same manufacturer. I like it because it has a big, easy to operate switch, which could be a factor if a survivor was injured. I am not that familiar with the other two.

A waterproof headlight might be a good thing to have, but I would be concerned that it might come off if you were thrown overboard, or tossed around while below decks. Whatever it is, it should be attached to you somehow. The few close calls I have had happened very fast. If you aren't wearing it, you aren't going to have it when you hit the water.

As far as I'm concerned, the most important part of the OPs article is that the safety officer had the little flashlight on his person when the keel failed.

The Fenix lights I have seem to have a "dazzle" effect rather than a "strobe": the duty cycle is not far from 1:1. A true strobe would be more like 100:1 or more, especially if battery run-time is important.

It's worth noting that these people had fish nibbling on their clothes as well as who-knows-what other distractions. It seems like anything that floats by itself it pretty important: survivors might remember to turn the light off during the daytime but otherwise I wouldn't plan on this piece of gear getting much more attention than that - it falls in the category of gear that needs to do the right thing without any help from an operator.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Wildman. Guess I don't have to tell you that on the water, common sense isn't all that common.

Here's a bit of trivia that my interest you as a tug captain, and Blast as a kayaker.

When I take guests on the sailboat and I'm the only one aboard that knows how to sail, I put a submersible handheld in my pocket on the theory that if I go overboard they are going to keep going to New Jersey and I will be able to call for help myself. Sometimes, strictly for the entertainment value, I will scan the channels used by the commercial vessels. Know what the tug captains call kayaks in New York Harbor?



Speedbumps.

My *guess* is that IR would be much better since there is a much higher photon flux at IR than visible light.

Another thought: diode lasers at 1064nm (invisible IR) are very efficient at turning battery power into optical power, even at high output levels. Even if 1064nm LEDs don't exist or aren't efficient, taking a 1064nm diode laser and putting a diffuser on it should be visible to NVG at least 50% further away than a green LED at the same power.

Edit: Silicon sensors are usually very sensitive well into IR, and I assume that SAR NVG's don't filter out the IR since they want to notice hot engine parts etc. So I'm assuming at 1032nm light source is at least as easy to see in NVG as visible light.

Wait a minute, don't wind/human powered watercraft have the legal right-of-way?

-Blast, who learned long ago the difference between "de jure" and "de facto"

Kayak? What kayak?

Don't worry so much Blast. I spent five years on tugs in NY harbor, and I never knew of one tug captain that used a kayak as a speedbump. However, that might not stop a tug captain from calling a kayak a speed bump.

As far as right of way, the Rules of the Road would normally require a motor vessel to yield to one without a motor. The practicalities are that sometimes it's simply not possible to do anything to do so.

I will admit that I might have sunk a rowing shell once. I was light boat, heading somewhere fast, and when I came through a bridge, there was a rowing shell on the other side, about 1/3 mile away. I was gone by the time my wake reached them, but I bet they swore at me.

De facto. The ancient maritime tradition. . . "Rights of Tonnage."

The Gross Tonnage Rule also has a less well-known portion, "The Relative Hull Strength Collary."

Per the Rules of the Road (1972 COLREGS)

Sailboats do NOT have the right of way, automatically, whether under power (they are at the bottom of heirarchy), under sail they do not have the right of way automatically although they are much closer to the top of the heirarchy (under vessel constrained by draft & vessel restricted in ability to manuever), or under power AND sail, they do not automatically have the right of way (they are at the bottom of heirarchy).

Sailing vessels have the right, when meeting or crossing another vessel to remain upwind of the other vessel so as to prevent the other vessel from "stealing" the sailing vessel's "wind".

In all cases, the overtaking vessel is the burdened vessel and must stay clear of the vessel being overtaken, at all times. The vessel being overtaken is required to maintain it's course and speed until the overtaking vessel is past and clear.

Sailing vessels are required to obey the steering rules as well as the sailing rules at all times!

By the way, I want to find those suckers (salesmen???) who keep telling sailboat owners that they have the Right of Way because they are a sailing vessel......

wildman800, sounds like you pulled out your Farnsworth. You're certainly more current on your knowledge of the Rules than I am.

One rule I advise for all boaters, stay the heck out of the way of commercial traffic. Don't even get near it. You'll both be more comfortable.

Yep, that's pretty much my rule. Anything that can kill me goes first.

Which is why I hold the door for my wife.

-Blast

+1 as usual, Blast!

well put advice to boaters-Dan

well put advice to all of us menfolk-Blast

"...stay the heck out of the way of commercial traffic..."

To paraphrase Joesph Wambagh, "you gotta pay particular attention to the SIZE of the commercial traffic."

Cruise ship vs smaller barge . If anyone is interested, there is a hilarious story written by a passenger on the cruise ship...

Regarding Glo-toobs.

Yes, they work underwater. No, they don't float (having just played with them). There's also no easy way to clip them anywhere, and they're not all that bright.

I'd suggest a dedicated strobe.

Like the line from the movie Capt. Ron: "Don't worry, they'll move out of the way. I learned that driving the Enterprise" (said while in a 15 foot motorboat approaching an oil tanker)

On that note, for a dedicated strobe, Amazon.com has the ACR FireFly SOLAS Rescue Strobe in stock at less than list. I might put one in my flight bag.

There are also a couple on e-bay for a buy it now price of $57-58...

Ya gotta love Capt. Ron!!!

I bought a few of these flashers.
And attached one on each EDC backpack I use, either for walking or biking...
Reason for purchase :
- type of batteries already in use with some of my gear;
- small enough to always have one
- a small flasher in the dark is far better than no flasher at all.....

I really love online stores, who advertise for flashlights, etc.., without mentionning the type of battery, run time and other futile specifications...