Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC

Posted by: Paragon

Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 02:40 AM

The following is my standard EDC presented for your feedback, suggestions, and constructive (or just downright viscous) criticism. Like most of us here, my EDC items change from time to time, although this particular core group has remained pretty consistent for me. I haven’t included my mobile phone, PDA, laptop, or other work-related items as most of us all have them, and pretty much know what they look like.

My approach toward preparedness involves a series of increasingly comprehensive stand-alone modules, starting with my standard EDC at the top of the pyramid, then my supplemental EDC, a Go Bag, various vehicle kits, a GHB, my BoB (that I continually add/subtract individual modules to adapt to a particular situation), an INCH bag, and finally a safe room in my home where most everything is kept (along with several items that are simply too large/heavy/impractical to ever become mobile).

My standard EDC (at least as I choose to define it here) are items that I consistently have in my pockets anytime that I venture outside my neighborhood. It does not include food, water, shelter, or the numerous other items that I carry in my laptop shoulder bag (when I actually use one), my Go Bag (which is always within close reach of me whether at home, in the car, or at the office) or the specialty items that I routinely carry when I venture into the wilderness. I absolutely hate bulk, and while the following might appear to be quite a bit of stuff, the standard EDC items are all quite light and actually lay very flat in my pockets.

So what exactly am I preparing for you might ask? Beats me, but I do know that the mere act of preparing addresses some primitive need/urge/desire I have to hoard cool little trinkets, gadgets, and gizmos. Being prepared also helps me worry about things a whole lot less, and provides the confidence that I will be able to deal with whatever scenario may arise.

So with all that self-pontificating rhetorical garbage out of the way, I humbly present for your review my standard (along with a bit of my supplemental) EDC:



Starting at the top and working clockwise around the image I have:

Gerber Magnum LST Jr. knife, 2 3/4” locking blade
Gerber Seal ‘n Go sterile storage bag (will hold approximately 12 oz of water)
Keychain with:
  • Car and house key
  • Photon Freedom Micro LED flashlight
  • ResQME mini rescue tool
  • Victorinox coupling key fob, quick release (male portion only)

OTC medications, including:
  • 4 x Imodium A-D, Loperamide HCl, 2 mg, Anti-Diarrheal
  • 4 x Tylenol, Acetaminophen, 500 mg, Analgesic
  • 8 x Motrin IB, Ibuprofen USP, 200 mg, Anti-Inflammatory
  • 3 x Benadryl, Diphenhydramine HCl, 25 mg, Antihistamine
  • 2 x Sudafed PE, Phenylephrine HCl, 10 mg, Decongestant

Mini Bic lighter
Micro survival kit (“MSK”)

If you haven’t seen one before, the bright yellow ResQME mini rescue tool is designed to take the place of those big, heavy, funky orange SAR hammers that you’re supposed to bolt down to your center console so that you can escape from a fiery/watery/agonizing death while otherwise trapped in your vehicle. Given the extreme unlikelihood I’ll ever actually need to use one of these things (either to extricate myself or another motorist from a vehicle) this is about the most weight that I’m willing to EDC. For what it is, it’s actually a pretty well made little tool:



Shown here removed from the quick-disconnect, a razor-edged seat belt cutter is exposed, while the opposite end features a spring-loaded center punch that is used to shatter the side window.

The MSK shown below (2.5” x 3” x 1/2” weighing only 68g) contains the following (clockwise from the top left corner):



2” x 2” gauze pad
Burn cooling gel
OTC medications dosage information
BSA firesteel
Nylon cord, 10.5 lb test, 50’
BCB 20mm button compass
2 x Duct tape with removable backing, 2” x 18” each
Dynarex alcohol prep pad
Emergency fishing kit (2 x #6 hooks, 2 x ball bearing snap/swivels, 12” wire wound leader)
Triple antibiotic ointment
2 x Tinder-Quik tabs
2 x Band-aids, 5/8” x 2 1/4”
4 x Butterfly closures
BCB Howler whistle
Victorinox® Minichamp SAK:
  • Small blade
  • Scissors
  • Nail file
  • Nail cleaner
  • Cuticle pusher
  • Emergency blade (Letter Opener)
  • Flat Screwdriver
  • Phillips Screwdriver
  • Wire Stripper
  • Orange peeler
  • Scraper
  • Bottle opener
  • Ruler
  • Tweezers
  • Toothpick
  • Key ring attachment

Blistex medicated lip ointment, 0.5g
Dr. Ken’s dental floss, 18”

Keep in mind this mini FAK is simply to treat minor cuts/scrapes/burns and manage infection. After taking the picture I realized that you can’t see the alcohol prep pad – it is stored between the two sheets of duct tape. I almost always have a very comprehensive IFAK or trauma bag within reach, so this kit is really more to hold me over if I fold over a fingernail in the elevator.

I generally wear TNF Paramount convertible pants, so the Gerber is located in the RH vertical slit pocket, the keychain and mini Bic lighter are in the right front pocket, the MSK in the right front zippered pocket, and a second mini Bic lighter with an o-ring around the top to prevent accidental discharge of butane (not shown) and the OTC medications are carried in the left front pocket. I carry two lighters for the simple reason that I smoke, so the first is the one that I use daily, while the second one remains unused (insuring that I always have a full lighter if needed).

Although not truly EDC by my definition, I generally carry a Glock G27 .40 S&W with two spare magazines anytime that I leave the house, although more often than not it stays in the car while I am at the office, traveling by air to an event, or if I’m meeting with customers/clients.



The paddle holster and concealment mag holster are both leather, and made by Safariland. The Glock has been slightly modified with the addition of an extended magazine release, and self-illuminating Trijicon night sights. The two spare magazines both feature Pearce Plus 1 (10 round) grip extensions, whereas the primary mag does not (for improved concealment). Ammo is typically 155 or 180 gr Federal Premium Hydra-Shok’s, or Hydra-Shok’s alternating with 165 gr Winchester FMJ rounds during the winter months (when the bad guys are wearing heavier or layered clothes).

The reason for the (male only) Victorinox coupling key fob on my keychain is that I have several additional keychains grouped by activity that are not routinely carried, although can be quickly deployed based on what my plans are for that particular day. Each of these “supplemental” keychains have a corresponding (female portion only) Victorinox key fob for quick/easy attachment.

The first supplemental EDC is my “wilderness survival” keychain:



Victorinox coupling key fob, quick release (female portion only)
Carabiner (not rated for climbing)
Silva Forecaster compass with thermometer
Fox 40 whistle
Victorinox® Minichamp SAK
BSA firesteel & striker
Swiss+Tech Utili-Key UST:
  • #1 Flat Screwdriver
  • #1 Phillips Screwdriver
  • Eyeglass Screwdriver
  • Straight Blade Knife
  • Serrated Blade Knife
  • Bottle Opener

IMS-Plus Spy Capsule, 1 1/2" x 1/2" Dia., 12 x Potable Aqua water purification tablets

As you can see, several of these items are actually redundant to my standard EDC items – this is obviously one of the most significant drawbacks to preparing stand-alone modules, not to mention the additional cost due to purchasing duplicate items.

Next, I have an “urban survival” version:



Tekna Micro Knife, 1 1/2" blade
Smith & Wesson handcuff key
Monadnock flat ended Kubotan, 5 1/2" x 5/8" DIA.
Victorinox coupling key fob, quick release (female portion only)
Fox OC Defense Spray, 2% Oleoresin Capsicum, 5.3MM Scoville Heat Units
Photon Freedom Micro LED flashlight

This keychain is deployed when I’m traveling through the seedy parts of town, going downtown to the stadium to watch a game, or otherwise simply in the company of people that I’m not 100% sure about. Not surprisingly, if I’m carrying the “urban survival” keychain, you can bet I’m probably wearing the Glock as well.

While the Gerber LST and the Tekna are great little knives, neither of them were ever intended for urban combat, so I typically add my CRKT Sting boot knife to round out my options with regard to the force pyramid:





While certainly not a large knife (3.25” blade, 7” OAL) I would certainly not want to be on the pointy end of it. The Cordura nylon/Zytel sheath has an integral retention clip that allows the knife to be carried upside down on the inside of my left calf, well concealed, yet very readily accessible.

- To Be Continued -
Posted by: Paragon

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 02:44 AM

- Continued -

The next supplemental item I have is my “utility” keychain:



Sharpie mini permanent marker
Swiss+Tech® Micro-Pro™ XL:
  • Precision Pliers
  • #1 Flat Screwdriver
  • #2 Flat Screwdriver
  • #1 Phillips Screwdriver
  • #2 Phillips Screwdriver
  • Wire Stripper
  • Wire Cutter
  • Sheet Shear
  • 1/8" Rule Markings (1 1/4")

Mini can opener, P-38, Coghlan's
Folding can/bottle opener
Victorinox coupling key fob, quick release (female portion only)





I have recently ordered a County Comm pocket widgy tool, and will add that to this particular keychain when it arrives.

And finally I have a “personal care” keychain:



Victorinox coupling key fob, quick release (female portion only)
Uncle Bill's sliver gripper
Perma-Pic flexible toothpick w/ case
LaCross fingernail clipper w/ file

So there you have it – let me know what you think.

Jim
Posted by: climberslacker

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 03:00 AM

looks good! I especially like the idea of differnet modules that can be added with the coupler! Great Idea!
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 03:47 AM

The only thing I would add is a roll of medical tape with your first aid gear, even if it's 1/2" wide.

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: Paragon

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 03:53 AM

Originally Posted By: JeanetteIsabelle
The only thing I would add is a roll of medical tape with your first aid gear, even if it's 1/2" wide.

My plan would be to tear off a narrow strip of the duct tape if that is required.

Jim
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 01:16 PM

I applaud you for not adding a mag extension to the carry mag. Many people do that, thereby compromising the concealability a bit. If you are gonna lengthen the mag, you might as well start with a larger sized weapon.

Re the boot knife, don't take it to CA, concealed there it is a felony!!!
Posted by: climberslacker

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 01:18 PM

Yep, CA knife laws are very strict!
Posted by: Still_Alive

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 01:43 PM

Amazingly well-done kit! Does the Gerber Magnum LST Jr. weigh much?
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 02:14 PM

Nice set of kits... I like the different keychain approach.

I also carry a BSA Hot Spark Fire Starter on my keychain. How do you like it? (Has anyone else used / have an opinion on these?)
Posted by: Paragon

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 05:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Still_Alive
Does the Gerber Magnum LST Jr. weigh much?

Not at all, which is one of the main reasons that it is my primary EDC knife. I have a couple of Gerber Paraframe knives (as well as a couple of the Mini's) that I actually prefer, although their width and mass make them much less practical for me.

Looking at Gerber's website, it appears that some of their specs are screwed up. The shape of the drop point on my LST Jr. appears somewhat different than the current version shown on Gerber's website, although not enough to justify the difference between my measurements and theirs:



Gerber LST Jr. - Serrated
43g
2.75" Blade
6.25" OAL



Gerber Paraframe Mini - Fine Edge
40g
2.25" Blade
5.25" OAL



Gerber Paraframe - Serrated
76g
3.00" Blade
7.00 OAL

My LST Jr. is probably ten years old (or more) but even still I can't imagine that the current version actually weighs over 90g as the website claims.

Originally Posted By: Mike_H
I also carry a BSA Hot Spark Fire Starter on my keychain. How do you like it?

The few times that I've actually used it, I was eventually able to get a fire started, although I can generally get fire with my standard firesteel in the first or second stroke.


Jim
Posted by: stevenpd

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By: climberslacker
Yep, CA knife laws are very strict!


Double edged knives are illegal here in California. They're very restrictive about concealment as well. For instance, you can only carry a knife if you are hunting, backpacking or other similar activity that would need one if the situation arises.
Posted by: acropolis5

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 05:32 PM

Nice EDC set-up. I suggest you add 1-2 hot ironed yellow/ orange bandanas, inserted into a Gerber Breast Milk Bag. You can reinforce the bag edges with duct tape and even scotch tape on to the bag some extra flat rolled duct tape. Its a good pocket carry bandage/smoke mask/signal flag/dew rag. Works for me anyway.
Posted by: Still_Alive

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 05:38 PM

2 more questions:

1. Do you find the shroud on the Photon Microlight is beneficial? I think this is the only thing I've ever disagreed with Doug Ritter about (believe me, I cringe when I say that--the man is phenomenal, and he's forgotten more about this stuff than I'll ever learn; just ask my wife, it's bordering on hero worship!). I find that the side scatter on a key chain light is a good thing.

2. How hard is it to become competent with a Kubotan? I've read a lot of good things about them.
Posted by: Paragon

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/04/08 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Still_Alive
Do you find the shroud on the Photon Microlight is beneficial? I find that the side scatter on a key chain light is a good thing.

I actually prefer the more focused beam of the shrouded light, but that's obviously subject to individual interpretation by each of us. Most of my experience with flashlights has been with tactical lights such as Mag-Lites, SureFires, and Streamlights, so I guess that type of beam pattern just seems more natural to me.

Quote:
How hard is it to become competent with a Kubotan? I've read a lot of good things about them.

I'll let you know once I actually consider myself competent. In a pinch, rather than attempting to apply direct pressure to soft tissue via PPCT, simply holding the Kubotan and swinging the attached group of keys and mini-tools like half a pair of numchucks is pretty effective against boney targets.

Wrist locks/joint manipulation/escort techniques are a bit more difficult to master, although I don't really feel they are as critical in a purely defensive encounter.

Jim
Posted by: red

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/05/08 12:55 AM

Nice, nice EDC. I wouldn't want to add much to that!

A definite +1 on the bandana, though.

Speaking of the kubotan, I use the same concept with my keyring, but without the (easily recognized to LEOs) Kubotan. I have a braided 550 with a firesteel on the end. Makes a great handle for a sap! I think wrist techniques are not going to usually work on a real assault. I've fought aikido guys before and wristlocks just didn't seem to be very effective.

When I'm developing an EDC plan, I always try to envision a police stop...how many weapons do I need to carry? For e.g., a stiletto in a leg rig would not go over well with my local LEOs. The cuff key would raise some eyebrows, I'd think. Do you carry cuffs as well?
Posted by: AyersTG

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/05/08 01:49 AM

I start all my fires with the BSA Hot Spark that I EDC. 'nuff said.

Tom
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/05/08 03:01 AM

I have those things stuck all over the place, including my key ring, and have started many a fire with them. They work, and are pretty inexpensive...
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/05/08 03:04 AM

"...Do you carry cuffs as well?..."

I still have a few pair laying around in handy locations smile smile smile
Posted by: MDinana

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/05/08 03:20 AM

Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
"...Do you carry cuffs as well?..."

I still have a few pair laying around in handy locations smile smile smile


A few years ago I was dating a gal that worked on the ambulance with me. Anyway, we picked up our rig for the day, and found that the previous shift had transported an inmate. The officer's handcuff case had popped off his belt, with cuff's still inside.

Probably a good thing she and I didn't have keys... blush
Posted by: jaywalke

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/06/08 01:58 AM

Why not just carry a full-sized mag as back-up? I have a Glock 22, and have been salivating over the 27. If I do get one for concealed carry, I'll add one full-size mag as back-up. I'd rather have one reload for 15 rounds than two reloads for 20.

Great kit, BTW.
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/06/08 02:06 AM

It is probably just me, but a full sized mag in a short butt pistol just doesn't hold right in my hand. In fact, my Kahr MK40 came with two mags, a flush base, and one with a short finger extension. I dislike that one so much that I bought a couple of extra flush base mags to carry as back ups. Don't know for sure where the one with the extension is right now...
Posted by: Paragon

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/06/08 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: red
A definite +1 on the bandana, though.

I actually keep a large bandana as well as a Buff in my Go Bag. I haven't included the Go Bag here simply because I don't really consider it to be EDC (by my definition of the term). Nevertheless, my Go Bag is rarely far from my reach, regardless of where I am or what I'm doing.

Originally Posted By: red
When I'm developing an EDC plan, I always try to envision a police stop...how many weapons do I need to carry? For e.g., a stiletto in a leg rig would not go over well with my local LEOs. The cuff key would raise some eyebrows, I'd think.

A very valid consideration, although I'm probably okay in that regard.

Originally Posted By: jwalke
Why not just carry a full-sized mag as back-up? I have a Glock 22, and have been salivating over the 27. If I do get one for concealed carry, I'll add one full-size mag as back-up. I'd rather have one reload for 15 rounds than two reloads for 20.

I know several guys that carry the G27 as a backup to their G22, and a couple of 15 (or even 17) round mags is clearly the way to go. In my case however, I can't think of a single compelling reason to compromise concealability, while simultaneously carrying fewer rounds.

I have somewhat large hands, so prior to the addition of the extended magazine release on my G27, tactical reloads and clearance drills were somewhat ackward and time-consuming. With the extension, these are no longer an issue for me whatsoever, so the use of multiple, smaller capacity mags works out fine for me.

Jim

Posted by: djk010468

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/06/08 05:39 PM

I like the whole thing, with the exception of the ammo choice.

"Ammo is typically 155 or 180 gr Federal Premium Hydra-Shok’s, or Hydra-Shok’s alternating with 165 gr Winchester FMJ rounds during the winter months (when the bad guys are wearing heavier or layered clothes). "

The FMJ is a total waste. The only problem (with certain ammo like hydra shok) is that the hollow point can plug up with clothes, and the ammo will basically perform like FMJ - that is to say very poorly. So, the addition of the FMJ simply hinders you, instead of having rounds that MIGHT be reduced to fMJ performance, you are having rounds that ARE FMJ. FMJ is a VERY poor stopper. Give yourself every chance you can that your rounds will expand, and if they don't you have the functional equivalent of FMJ anyway - you've lost nothing.

And Hydra shok is old technology. I strongly suggest you do some research and thinking on your ammo. Winchester Ranger-T, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dot have all been proven better performers than the old hydra-shok, they perform through heavy clothes, and have better barrier penetration and retained weight. All can be purchased on the internet in 50 rd boxes.
Posted by: Paragon

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/06/08 09:24 PM

Originally Posted By: djk010468
I like the whole thing, with the exception of the ammo choice.

Hydra shok is old technology. I strongly suggest you do some research and thinking on your ammo. Winchester Ranger-T, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dot have all been proven better performers than the old hydra-shok, they perform through heavy clothes, and have better barrier penetration and retained weight.


Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
[Federal] makes several major brands of defense ammunition: Hydrashok, Expanding Full Metal Jacket, and HST. Hydrashok has been popular among American law enforcement agencies for many years now while the newer HST ammunition is a bold design that has shown in testing to expand reliably to more than twice the original bullet diameter. Alliant TechSystems (ATK), which owns Federal and Speer has conducted many Wound Ballistic Workshops in various police agencies around the country using Winchester SXT, Speer Gold Dot, and the HST. The Speer Gold Dot was the only "bonded" bullet used in several workshops. Testing is completed in 10% ordnance gelatin, and consists of shots in bare gelatin, gelatin covered in FBI specification Heavy Clothing, steel, wallboard, plywood, and the toughest challenge of all - laminated automobile safety glass. The HST performed incredibly well in all categories, with consistent and adequate expansion, penetration and weight retention, with very few (if any) core-jacket seperations. The Winchester SXT had many core-jacket seperations in several categories including with all rounds fired through auto glass. Speer's Gold Dot performance was parallel to the HST's. HST, being new and with such promising test results, is difficult to obtain anywhere but in law enforcement circles and actual, reliable data on "street" performance is still pending. Also relatively new is the Expanding Full Metal Jacket, EFMJ, ammunition which uses a lead core and polymer tip completely encased by a copper jacket. The idea behind this being that it is guaranteed to feed reliably in autoloaders (a problem for some hollowpoints and firearms) and, because there is no "hollow" that can be filled, things like heavy clothing, glass, or drywall will not prevent the ammunition from expanding. This gives the EFMJ ammunition a very reliable rate of expansion at the potential drawback of a lighter bullet which moderately reduces the energy it carries.

Very good information to know -- thanks. I haven't kept up with the latest developments in handgun ammo, so I'll try to pick up a few boxes before heading back to the range.

Jim
Posted by: JohnnyUpton

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/07/08 04:14 AM

While I agree that placement is key, IMO what happens inside live tissue Vs gelatin should be considered wrt marketing claims.
Posted by: BlueSky

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 01:03 AM

Here in TX, the kuboton could be a problem legally, but O.C. is explicitly allowed. Therefore, I carry a Key Defender, whose purpose is as a self defense spray. The shape of the container is purely coincidental...

Also, +1 on the HST. I have not been able to find it locally for a decent price, so I end up ordering it from streicher's.
Posted by: djk010468

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 04:04 AM

Shot placement is important, but the more the bullet expands, the more tussue it tears and destroys. That contributes to blood loss and shock, which is what will go farther to stopping or at least slowing him down. Sure, FMJ to the central nervous system will do the same as an expanding bullet, but you have less surface area with which to hit that CNS. Failing that, I want as much tissue damage as possible. Even if it doesn't create an actual stop, it saps his will to fight.

You can practice all you want, but you have to remember that in a crisis you will not be shooting at stationary paper targets. Don't count on hitting the heart, or the head, because they will be moving, and shooting back. Give yourself every advantage you can. Better bullets are an advantage. It can be argued how much of an advantage, but if nothing else, if it expands to twice it's diameter, that's more area to hit those vitals.

I order all of my social ammo on line. Streichers, MAH supply, ammoman, all are good. Ammoman tends to have the best prices, but he doesn't always have stuff in stock. I know he has HST in .40 right now. And I think he has Gold dot's in 9.

I don't recommend SXT, but rather Ranger-T. It's a different design, and performs better. MAH Supply carries it, though a lot of it seems to be out of stock right now.
Posted by: Todd W

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 05:20 AM

Originally Posted By: stevenpd
Originally Posted By: climberslacker
Yep, CA knife laws are very strict!


Double edged knives are illegal here in California. They're very restrictive about concealment as well. For instance, you can only carry a knife if you are hunting, backpacking or other similar activity that would need one if the situation arises.


Are you serious?
Double edged knives are NOT illegal you however can NOT carry them concealed.

You CAN carry a knife on your person while not hunting, backpacking, etc too.

I suggest you read the CA Laws before spouting out incorrect information and realize that some crazy laws are only for you "SoCal" La County people.
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 06:56 AM

I agree on the importance of bullet placement. Penetration is not as easily considered though. You cannot have penetration that will always be sufficient and no risk of over penetration at the same time. Even hollow point bullets may hit something behind your target (especially if they failed to find it). In my neck of the woods, hunters use FMJ to minimize the thread to the environment (expanding bullets are standard though). It is more predictable as it does not tend to create bullet fragments.
The effect of a hit will also largely depend on the target. Adrenalin may well keep an individual target keep going for several seconds even after a heart shot (ask an experienced hunter to get that confirmed). The only hit that will stop on the spot is a hit to a small part of the central nervous system. In a self defense situation it should be considered as nearly impossible. Be prepared for an adversary that will still be able to act after a hit. You will be appallingly close to the real life scenario.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 12:21 PM

For your reading pleasure, just some of the California knife laws:

California Penal Code

171.5.
(b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess within any
sterile area of an airport, any of the items listed in subdivision
(c).
(c) The following items are unlawful to possess as provided in
subdivision (b):
(2) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the
blade of which is fixed, or is capable of being fixed, in an
unguarded position by the use of one or two hands

626.10. (a) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches, folding knife with a blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, a taser, or a stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, any instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison

e) Subdivision (b) does not apply to any person who brings or possesses an ice pick or a knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university, state university, or community college for lawful use in or around a residence or residential facility located upon those grounds or for lawful use in food preparation or consumption

653k. Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's
area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the
public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells,
offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any
other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in
length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a
knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a
spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other
similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more
inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick
of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other
mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by
any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not
include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure
applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to
the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism
that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade,
or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.


12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(1) gives,lends, or possesses
any ballistic knife
any belt buckle knife
any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue
any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife,
(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger
(8) As used in this section, a "ballistic knife" means a device
that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil
spring, elastic material, or compressed gas.
(13) As used in this section, a "belt buckle knife" is a knife
which is made an integral part of a belt buckle and consists of a
blade with a length of at least 21/2 inches.
(14) As used in this section, a "lipstick case knife" means a
knife enclosed within and made an integral part of a lipstick case.
(15) As used in this section, a "cane sword" means a cane, swagger
stick, stick, staff, rod, pole, umbrella, or similar device, having
concealed within it a blade that may be used as a sword or stiletto.
(16) As used in this section, a "shobi-zue" means a staff, crutch,
stick, rod, or pole concealing a knife or blade within it which may
be exposed by a flip of the wrist or by a mechanical action.
(18) As used in this section, an "air gauge knife" means a device
that appears to be an air gauge but has concealed within it a
pointed, metallic shaft that is designed to be a stabbing instrument
which is exposed by mechanical action or gravity which locks into
place when extended.
(19) As used in this section, a "writing pen knife" means a device
that appears to be a writing pen but has concealed within it a
pointed, metallic shaft that is designed to be a stabbing instrument
which is exposed by mechanical action or gravity which locks into
place when extended or the pointed, metallic shaft is exposed by the
removal of the cap or cover on the device.
(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.
Posted by: sodak

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 12:58 PM

I like your modular idea. I have had, however, the male/female thingies fail on me, so I group items on a semi-large keychain key and just put it on or take it off the carabiner. But you still have a slick idea.
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 01:45 PM

"...hunters use FMJ to minimize the thread to the environment (expanding bullets are standard though)..."

That I do not understand at all...
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 01:52 PM

"...I have had, however, the male/female thingies fail on me..."

So have I, but rarely. I use them on my normal carry keys (a pretty large bunch of keys and stuff by the way), and have been using this particular "pull apart" for probably ten or eleven years now. The trick is to buy quality, usually from a lock/key shop. The ones you see near the checkout at WallyWorld are usually not high quality, those will normally fail much sooner. I have had worse luck with the little gate springs breaking on the "not for climbing" mini-biners...
Posted by: Paragon

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By: sodak
I have had, however, the male/female thingies fail on me...


Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
So have I, but rarely. I use them on my normal carry keys (a pretty large bunch of keys and stuff by the way), and have been using this particular "pull apart" for probably ten or eleven years now. The trick is to buy quality, usually from a lock/key shop. The ones you see near the checkout at WallyWorld are usually not high quality, those will normally fail much sooner.

Exactly what I was going to post.

The ones that I use are Victorinox stainless steel coupling key fobs and I have never had one come apart unintentionally.

Jim
Posted by: djk010468

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 03:12 PM

I don't either. I don't know any hunter who uses FMJ, nor do I know of any threat to the environment from bullets. I've been a hunter for 28 years, grew up in a family of hunters. In fact, FMJ is illegal in some states for hunting purposes, as it is considered inhumane.

Flesh is elastic, and fmj will make a small hole, pass through, and that hole closes up. Unless it hits something immediately fatal, it means a wounded animal.

And let's be clear, even a heart shot is not always immediately fatal - that's a Hollywood myth. The heart can continue to beat and circulate when damaged - depending on the extent of the damage.

The only certain immediate stopper is a hit the the CNS - the brain or upper brain stem. Most gunshot wound fatalities are caused by blood loss and shock.
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 03:20 PM

Usually hunters would use expanding bullets for the better effect. The bullets tend to fragment and some of the fragments spray from the exit wound. In most cases that is not a problem when hunting. A hunting magazine conducted a test and found that the fragments may cover an angle of about 45° from the original direction of the shot. When tracking down a wounded animal with the help of a dog (the dog must be used around here), the dog may be in that cone and get hit. This is why for this situation usually FMJ is used. It does not pose a thread to such a big area. That does not mean that there is no risk of unintended hits though. The probable deflection was found to be up to 10°.
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/08/08 07:48 PM

"...When tracking down a wounded animal with the help of a dog (the dog must be used around here), the dog may be in that cone and get hit..."

I guess that is possible, if the dog is behind the wounded animal. Seems a little farfetched to me, but then I haven't hunted in your part of the world...
Posted by: djk010468

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 06/09/08 04:03 AM

Dogs for big game are illegal around here.

Frankly, I have recovered the bullet inside the animal. Soft points don't usually fragment, they mushroom.

I wouldn't be shooting at the animal with my dog in the area. Seems pretty stupid to me.

What do you need the dog for, anyway? If you make a clean shot, you don't have to chase the animal very far.

I think there is some misinformation here.
Posted by: Stu

Re: Paragon's standard (and supplemental) EDC - 09/15/08 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: acropolis5
Nice EDC set-up. I suggest you add 1-2 hot ironed yellow/ orange bandanas, inserted into a Gerber Breast Milk Bag. You can reinforce the bag edges with duct tape and even scotch tape on to the bag some extra flat rolled duct tape. Its a good pocket carry bandage/smoke mask/signal flag/dew rag. Works for me anyway.

+1 on the bandanas