boiling schmoiing. you don't need to

Much has been written about boiling water for purification, ten minutes this twenty minutes that, etc. In fact this same bit of information has been regurgitated over and over and over. The fact is, you don’t need to and industries have known about this for years; why everyone continues to believe in boiling I don’t get.

Water boils at around 212 degrees farenheit, but pasteurization is reached at about 150. Pasteurization kills all the nasties that are nasty to you, including Giardia and Cryptosporidium, well before water reaches boiling temperature. Not only that, tests show that a contact time as low as 5 seconds, at pasteurization temperature, is enough to kill or deactivate the nasties, in most cases.

Why am I posting this? Because, I’m tired of seen misinformation disseminated amongst our community. The stuff that is being written needs to change. You gotta think. Don’t water treatment plants and dairy industries use pasteurization, not boiling, to rid the parasites.

Regardless, here are some links to argue my point.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=168072&blobtype=pdf
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-144664550.html
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=239648
http://www.katharinehamnett.com/images/campaigns/csp_report/New-Methods-of-Water-Pasteurisation.pdf

Sorry for venting and sounding curt, but, today I got in an argument with a first responder over it. Too bad I wasn’t behind my computer to show him the tests.

Alan

Hm! How would altitude factor into this theory?

Venting indeed! I bet you'r hot enough to sterilise a lake Arrowhead delivery truck. Never, ever argue: Just calmly offer resources to educate the other person.When you introduce egos, the other party tunes out even cogent arguments.

We've known this for a while. However, 150 doesn't kill ALL nasties- things like crypto have been known to take bit more. Besides, I don't carry a cooking thermometer anywhere outside of the kitchen. So if it is boiling, it is done.

I always thought that they told you to boil it because then you know for sure that it is hot enough. You can't just look and say, yep, its 160 degrees, but if it is boiling you know it is hot enough.

Roger

As you go up in altitude water boils at a lower temperature. How high do you need to go before you don't reach 150DegF?

Chris, you're right. I shouldn't have come off that way. SORRY!

dougwalkabout-- altitude will just change the amount of time to reach pasteurization.

ironraven-- that's not exactly true. it just takes longer to reach pasteurization. But yes, you're right once its reached boiling, you're GTG.

z96, exactly! but, rest assured, by the time you reach boiling temp, they be dead. no need to boil longer.

Again sorry guys

Alan

Alan:

How dare you inject actual science into the received wisdom of surrealism! Actually, myths of survivalism might make a pretty good thread to explore.

I'll start: "If you're lost in the woods, follow waterways downstream; it will lead you to civilization."

While I acknowledge it may sometimes work, experience suggests, when lost in the mountains, it will often lead only to thicket-choked ravines, and increasingly steep, dangerous or impassible terrain, along with making both air and ground searches less able to find you. Likewise, in flatter terrain, like much of the US Southeast, it could lead you into swamps, bogs and other gator and skeeter-infested, and nearly impassable terrain. Generally it is much better to stick to ridgelines and other open terrain, sheltering on the margins if weather dictates.

Jeff

It has always been my understanding that the only reason you get the water to boiling point is to ensure it is hot enough to kill any nasty. Once boiling it is GTG and those time limits I have always ignored because they have never made sense to me.

"...If you're lost in the woods..."

"...Generally it is much better to stick to ridgelines and other open terrain, sheltering on the margins if weather dictates..."

That may be true, but sitting still is probably still the best thing to do if lost in the boonies...

It's like when one of my kids is going on a 250 mile trip. I remind them they need to fill the gas tank. Now, I know that all our cars can go quite a bit further than 250 miles on a tank of gas. So am I disseminating misinformation? Should I instead say, "Put enough gas in the tank so that it contains exactly 12 gallons." "Fill the tank" is good enough to cover things and give an extra safety margin. "Boil the water" is good enough to cover things and give an extra safety margin.

Quite true. I've often wondered exactly how often that advice gets followed, though. It may be such a successful strategy that it usually results in a quick, fairly routine rescue and thus doesn't often get reported in the press. On the other hand, the impulse to effect a self-rescue by moving must be overwhelming, especially for the experienced outdoorsman, to avoid embarrassment as much as to reach safety. The anecdotal reports we see in the news certainly seem to most often involve people found (or not) after having moved some distance from where they were "supposed" to be.

Personally, I've never been lost, but I have misplaced my route for a day or two before.

Jeff

This is a battle I've given up on. If people think they need to boil water for 10 minutes I'll be happy to heat up their dinner when they're out of stove fuel.

I suppose next you'll be telling us that the Earth really isn't flat when we can all see that it is!

You're right, and Cody Lundin makes this point in his books also. I generally make sure it's a rolling boil (and it takes me a minute or two to be sure) since I live and camp at high altitude, and that's probably even overkill. But it's usually enough time to finish off my beer!

If someone invents a dehydrated or concentrated beer for us backpackers, I'll try to get him nominated for a Nobel Prize! What a glorious day that will be! I've never had the pleasure of a cold beer in the backcountry, but sometimes I bring along a bit o' Irish single malt.

Jeff

I have read years ago that once water comes to any kind of boil its safe. I always let it boil just to make sure as others have said, if you don’t have a thermometer it’s an easy visual thing to see.


Now that I have several wood fired camp stoves (the Thermette is great for this) I don’t worry about fuel at all.

Not me, other then letting someone use a wood stove (assuming they go scavenge wood for it) if I have a wood stove with me let them fend for themselves.

If they can’t figure out how much fuel to carry it’s not my fault. Gasoline and alcohol is too expensive to give it away.

that's exactly my point, gang; once it reaches boiling no need extra boiling time is needed. short of having a WAPI (I use it generically to also mean thermometer), watching the first signs of a boil is the only indicator you have.

hacksaw, you're nicer than me. "if you insist on burning more fuel, I'll be more than happy to watch you eat a cold meal."

best,

If you find yourself lost in the woods, hug a tree. Eventually a clearcut gypo logging operation will show up and have you peppersprayed. We are all burdened with falsehoods in survival literature and folklore. I'm still trying to find a anthropological reference to Apache Debri Huts in Arizona and identify the military researchers who came up with magnesium bars and solar stills. Whoever illustrated the first survival tome should be suing every other publication for copyright infringement of that neatly latticed debri shelter. I suppose they are to embaressed, another infamous trap drawing so obviously wrong even a retarded chipmunk could see it will never work. Survival is as much stoic humour at all the nonsense and hype as real experience. Do what the Inuit do and get some sleep. If it's a zip together WIGGY unit you can invite it's detractor to crawl in with you and find out together. Hopefully it isn't Les Stroud, Cody or me. I hear tell we aren't afraid of bears because our heroic snoring scares off any beyond even a STORM whistle's maximum effective range.

Switching from survival myths to survival truths, I guess the most important element in survival is simply making the decision to survive. Mental attitude, along with the ability to take on problems one at a time, seems to be the most frequent common denominator in most extreme survival accounts I've read.

Another lucky advantage I have is that my wife is the director of the reasearch library for the Naval Operational Medicine Institute. She feeds me all the good survival books and research, Aircrew survival, hypothermia, SERE, tropical and expedition medicine, etc.

Jeff

Does she have a sister?

Nope. Sorry. If she did, I'd have probably converted to a fundamentalist Mormon sect and married her, too. Marrying my wife is the smartest move I've ever made. Two examples: My wife once actually asked me if we we had enough ammunition in storage, and she actually said, in front of witnesses, "Honey, I think you should buy a bigger boat."

Jeff

"...dehydrated or concentrated beer..."

REI once sold a packet labeled as dehydrated beer, and being young and foolish at the time, I bought one. Tasted like camel urine probably tastes, and after reading the label I learned that it contained NO alcohol. Lousy taste, no actual booze, no wonder they don't sell it anymore...

I'm sorry but we have to raise the BS flag on this one.

Next you'll be telling us that she's letting you keep the baby Sasquatch that followed you home....

Did you leave yourself logged in and it's really Mrs. McCann posting???

Actually, some of us do have wifes like that. Every time I hold a Springfield M1-A and drool, mine says "buy it." Sadly, I never do...

No BS. My wife is really pessimistic about the government and economy, so she supports my preparations. As for the boat, I suspect she just didn't like going out on the exposed foredeck to strike the jib in any sort of seaway.

Sasquatch? No. But she did let me keep the German Shepard puppy I brought home on her birthday.

Jeff

Me, too. I just can't seem to rationalize the purchase of another firearm, but the Springfield M1A would be my next choice.

Jeff

Whoa, whoa, whoa... wait a second. Really?

We NEED to talk!

V/r
ENS MDinana, MC, USN

Private message sent.

Regards,

Jeff

IIRC, alcohol has a lower boiling point than water. So, to dehydrate a beer, you'd actually boil off the booze before the water left. I've also heard of dehydrated wine, but I bet it has the same problem.

Course, if you had dunked your feet into the "beer," added some sugar, and waited a week, you might have had something.

I have to chime in as another with a wife who supports such things. Without DW, I would not be the owner of a firearm. She was the one who wanted to go hunting.

If I could only get her to run foredeck and bodysurf, I'd be all set.

"...Course, if you had dunked your feet into the "beer," added some sugar, and waited a week, you might have had something..."



I am yet to find anything that will gross me out, but that comes close

I'm with you on that being a bit much for my stomach, but the idea might work. I recall reading a blog or zine article about using a dirty sock to make prison hooch, because yeast is generally forbdden in prison.

I'm also not saying I've made, had or want to try prison hooch. However, should I ever find myself incarcerated, it could be good to know how to make it.

The "more ammo" I can believe.
It's the bigger boat line that made no sense. But once explained that she's crewing the too-small boat then the story starts to become more reasonable.

My wife was all over y2k preps and preparedness supplies for y2k which just extrapolates into continued awareness and preparedness in these uncertain times.

So- there ARE some good ones out there. I have one too.

If a girl can handle a SIG P239, then that is certainly within the realm of possibility.

Jeanette Isabelle

Here ya go. Mr Google does it again...

Prison booze

Another: http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/000373.php

If anyone ever has need or want to make such a thing, I'd recommend (based on my experiences in hombrewing) adding some spice(s) to it. Hops added to beer makes it both bitter and palatable. Spices added to somethign like this could do the same, but I'm not about to experiment and find the right combination.

Maybe this should be a whole new thread...

Essentially Gin is just Vodka with herbs and aromatics and such added during the process.

Back to the issue of water purification I did some reading on Pasteurization and using milk as a baseline example you get a Log 5 (I think) kill rate by going 161F for 10 to 15 seconds. Plus I hear that there are nastier more heat resistant bugs in milk potentially than in water.

Super Pasteurized Milk is heated to 250F for a fraction of a second...that should tell you that time doesn't matter.

I suppose that one could dry beer in the oven as one does jerky. The resulting powder-paste-gurry could be rehydrated at need, and carbonated by adding an alka-seltzer tablet, and realcoholed by adding an appropriate amount of vodka or everclear. Or we could ask the candy makers to produce beer-flavored fizzies (http://www.candydirect.com/novelty/Fizzies-Root-Beer.html).
This fluid might be offensive to connoisseurs, but the worst beer I ever had was wonderful. Probably stems from growing up drinking Ballantine in squatty little brown bottles. The old man opened one once, took a drink,, and looked puzzled. Took another drink and then held the bottle up to the light to see if there was an explanation for the off-taste. He found a three inch cigar but floating in the pale ale. Point is, it took two slurps to figure out that something was amiss.

"...vodka..."

Let me get this right...you want to waste good vodka to make crappy beer???

You're way too easy. The worst beer I ever had really sucked. In bad times I'd rather remember my last beer having been really good than making a concoction that sucks and trying to forget that memory. There are other things to mix with Vodka or Everclear if you really need a drink.

That said, in bad times I'll be drinking water or tea, and little else.

How did this get to be about beer?

Jeanette Isabelle

"...How did this get to be about beer?..."

It's a guy thing...

Ultimately, everything is about beer...

I'll accept that.

Jeanette Isabelle

Unfortunately, here in America, the mass produced beer is a bit like sex in a rowboat:

F&$^ing close to water.

Which is how beer relates to the OP!

I can agree with that. If it's less than 7% and you can see through it, it's not beer.

Russ. the worst beer I ever tasted was with brother Vec on Coronado. Have you been to that pub that he frequents. the name of the beer is devil something. Holy Christ! it'll wake the dead and kill the living. Zombies I tell ya!

Buy it while you can!

I've had some good brews there. "Devil Something". . . a little too much brimstone perhaps, I'll have to try it

I personally prefer to brew my own when I have a chance...

Mmmm... boiling wort....

I would never waste good vodka to rehydrate something that was supposed to taste like beer. I don't think i could consdier something that had been dried up into dust as beer.

However, beer does offer the possibility of preserving a supply of precious fluid that is free from nasty growths that may harm you. Nothing that can grow in beer will kill you. At least that's is written in some of the homebrewing books I've read.

I would boil any liquid I intended to make into a beer, because bacteria in most cases will not make you beer taste better.

I don't think spoiled beer would kill you. Here is a list of what commonly can be found in spoiled beer.

Bacteria:
Lacic Acid Bacteria
Lactobacillus spp.
Pediococcus spp.
Acetic Acid Bacteria
Acetobacter
Acetomonas
Zymomonas spp.
Enterobacteriaceae spp.
Pectinatus spp.

Wild Yeasts:
Saccharomyces
Brettanomyces
Torulopsis, Pichia, and Candida

Wort, however, can make quite an attractive growth medium. Very important to make sure to boil it properly. Sterilize bottles and equipment with oxygen bleach.