Rifle Choices

I am soon to be in the market for a new rifle. My firearms collection currently consists mostly of hunting rifles (from .22 to 300 Weatherby Mag), upland game shotguns (12 and 20ga double barrels), and a wide range of pistols plus a Remington 870 12ga for basic home defense.

I have never been into the military style assault rifles and there are a huge number out there and I am hoping someone has some advice to narrow down my research. While I do plan on shooting this for fun, I also would like to have it available for WTSHTF situations.

Requirements:
.223 or .308 caliber
highly reliable under field conditions
Relatively low weight (would be carrying with a BOB+)
Easily field maintainable

Cost is not really an issue as long as it is less than 2-3K. I'd much prefer to spend more and have a more reliable gun. Please be as specific as you can as I know there can be a large variance in quality between manufacturers and even years of manufacture.

Ruger Mini-14(.223 remington cartridge) in matte stainless, with black poly stock. Solid design (garand style, like the M-14 and M-1 military rendition), utilitarian in nature, carbine so it's light, lots of available options, but just fine as is, with a solid mfr warranty. Good used ones at less than $500 if you shop, new maybe as low as $650. Get a couple 30 round aftermarket magazines. I can field strip mine with just an allen wrench if need be and the Otis pocket gun cleaning kit makes the whole job a snap.

I've run mine through the ringer chasing the coyote-cong, vorpal bunnies, and the elusive cow-pie at 200 meters. I prefer an aimpoint red dot scope on mine (no magnification), but currently I've got a pronghorn in 3-9x power. About the only quirk with this fine firearm is that the gas port can allow too much energy on hot rounds, jacking the action hard and spewing the brass 30 feet or more. You can change out the bushing easy enough (aftermarket for $20 or so) or reload your own and tailor the powder charge for the recoil you need, which I prefer anyways.


For what you say you are looking for, that is precisely what this little rifle was made to do. It is amazing how fast you can go through 240 rounds with this little unit.

Forget about the AR-15 (5.56mm/.223cal). It is sensitive to dirt and carbon buildup. The .308cal on the other hand is heavier but accurate, easy to maintain in the field, & more reliable than most weapons.

The M-1 Garand (.30-06cal). It's main drawback is the weight and 5 round magazine.

I've always felt good with an FNL (7.62mm) in my hands. It has a bit of weight but is reliable and easy to maintain.

If the ranges are no more than 100 yds maximum that you expect to need a rifle for, then you might look at the M-1 Carbine (.30cal) or similar type of carbine.

take this FWIW to you.

I'll suggest two. First one is a bushmaster m-17s. Bullpup configuration, uses standard m-16 mags. Modifications that need to be done to it, IMHO, are adding a picatinny rail on the under side for a foward grip and drilling out vent holes in the aluminim receiver surrounding the barrel. The gun gets to hot to handle after about 3 clips without prolonged cooling. Uses the gas system similar to an AK-47 so fouling is not an issue as it is with the M-16/M-4 clones. No longer in production, never a "popular" seller. I see them all the times at gun shows for 500 to 600 bucks.
The other is a FN FS2000. Also a bullpup. Also takes standard nato mags. Haven't owned one like I did the M-17, but I want one. Modular foregrip configuration (white light, laser, grenade launcher for military) so its slightly customizable, at a cost to your wallet. Runs about 2k new. Brass isn't ejected, its collected and pushed out the front. Charging handle can be mounted right or left. All controlls are ambidextrous.
If you want something in .308 (7.62x51 nato) I'd say go with a CETME or a FNFAL. Tons of aftermarket parts to make it your own. Reliable track record on both.

-Bill Liptak

IMO
Long guns and a BOB don't really go together, its a weight thing.
Get a short barrel for your 870 and carry 2 bx's of asst. ammo.
It still weights a bunch but well keep you safe like nothing else will. Remember the object is NOT to get into a situation that will require a weapon, you can't win. Lay down lead and get
away!
The post above to consider a Mini-14. While not a real military
weapon is a very good choice to fit your requirements.

If you are willing to go with a bolt action, they are all extremely reliable and will be more accurate than only the most expensive semiautos

A lot of gun questions turn into Mary Ann versus Ginger type debates. There are good and bad attributes to just about any rifle. You just have to figure out which criteria are the most important to you.

If at all possible get some trigger time on a few guns and figure out what you LIKE. Ergonomics are not easy to evaluate without getting your hands on a gun. Imagine buying shoes because they look comfortable.

Once you know what you like you should be able to find a very nice rifle in just about any configuration.

Some thoughts...

If you like ARs remember that everyone and his brother builds one and quality varies dramatically. If the 5.56 cartridge is a little light for you there are serviceable models in 6.8 SPC or 7.62 NATO.

With the exception of being chambered in 7.62x39 a top shelf AK would seem to fit your other requirements fairly well.

FALs and M1A1s can be very nice but are also heavy.

The Mini-14/Mini-30 aren't bad choices either. The AR is undoubtedly more popular than the Mini-14 but the Mini does have its champions. I'm not sure the Mini-30 brings anything to the table that a similarly priced AK doesn't trump.

There are more specialized options out there as well and a little Googling should dig them up. (The Sig 556 & Bushmaster ACR are getting a lot of press at the moment.)

Don’t forget to check on the availability of accessories/magazines and the price of same. IMO this is one key area that makes the AR popular. They are very easy to reconfigure; add optics, change stocks, etc.

Long story short … there is likely more than one right answer and the right answer for me isn’t necessarily the right answer for you.

I've always been the Mary Ann type, favoring function over form, to a point. Mary Ann was easy enough on the eyes that her other more practical attributes put her at the top. Ginger couldn't do anything useful until she spent some time learning with Mary Ann.

Do we have any takers on Lovey (aka Mrs. Howell)? Just curious.

I've heard good things about Saigas as far as reliability goes. They're basically .223, 7.62x39, and .308 versions of an AK-47. I have no experience with them though.

http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga.htm
http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_308.htm



Another option is a Remington 7600/7615. These are pump rifles, similar in design to the classic Remington 870 Shotgun. The 7615 shoots .223 and uses AR-15 magazines, which is a nice touch. While not as fast to shoot as a semi-auto it's still quicker than a bolt action and it's about as reliable as a factory 870. I like the design of the Law Enforcement versions best.

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

Other than that I'd go with what everyone else here said, a Mini-14 is tough to beat and very commmon.

I knew a guy in Alaska that had a slide-action Remington in 30-06. He loved it. Quick and slick. Great follow-up/recovery time.

M1A or an M1.
Or, if you prefer a carbine, the SKS. That might be easier on your weight limit.
That's my route anyway. Everyone will have a different opinion.

I've heard good things about the Saigas myself but I have no practical first hand experience with them. This is sad since Tromix is located nearby and I consistently hear positive things about his work.

Actuall, the Grand has an eight round clip. It is kinda heavy, but not all that much more than a M-16A2 heavy barrel.

I would love to have a Springfield Armory M1A, just 'cuz I loved the M-14, but they are pretty pricey.

Altho I am not a fan of bugging out, and am not sure that a long arm goes with a BOB at all, I suspect that any quality bolt action in .308 would do just fine. And a bolt will probably stay off of the anti-gunners hit list the longest...

+1. But I wouldn't know which one to pick!



Another +1.

"...I wouldn't know which one to pick..."

I really like the shorty version (can't recall just this second what it is called, and too lazy to google it). Last time I handled one my wife said to buy it, fool that I am I passed...

I guess it all depends of what type of shooting you do(close in or long range) but the Styer scout I have fits most of your criteria.

I usually get long winded on these types of threads so I will refrain, but I highly recomend the scout in .308 with a good Leopold.

I love guns........

Hands down Mary Ann is it. I read an article about the show once, she got many times the fan mail Tina Louise (ginger) did.



I agree that a bolt action will stay off the anti-gunners radar longer then a center fire auto.


I use to have an HK-93, it was an excellent gun, till it came time to pay for ammo.

I don’t know that I buy into the end of society theme that movies love to push. I think a scoped bolt action would serve a person better then what people call an assault rifle.

I just had another idea. I forgot all about this review.

http://www.equipped.org/Kel-Tec_SU-16_Review.htm

The Kel-Tec SU-16. Seems like it fits what you are looking for pretty well. They also have a folding stock version now.

Yes, finally there is the Kel-Tec SU-16. I got the SU-16CA version which is a combination of the SU-16C and the SU-16A and happens to be legal in CA Nice little rifle, accurate enough and takes standard M-16/AR-15 magazines.

SU-16A

In my opinion your requirements lean towards something built on a Kalashnikov/AK action. If there is a more reliable weapon out there I haven't heard of it. Plus they are available in both .223 and .308, are pretty light, and maintenance is a snap. It takes less than a minute to have it completely apart without tools.

You can get cheap AK's for around $400 everywhere. Continuing up the ladder Arsenal, Inc. and Krebs both make top end AK clones for around 1k. With your budget I would personally look real close at a Finnish Valmet M62, M71, or M76. They are Kalashnikov based rifles and take the legendary AK toughness to the extreme. In my opinion they are in a league of their own. Greatly improved sights, better barrels, fine craftsmanship, ect. Gunbroker.com has them all the time for 1k - 2k in .223 with the .308 ones going for a bit more.

I do see the advantages of using a bolt action for bugging out though. Being 500 yards away hiding out with that .300 is in most cases going to be a better choice then trading lots of lead with one or more people closer in. I am not to talk you out of getting a magazine fed military rifle though! There are situations where nothing else would do. Besides, they are flat out fun to shoot!

If you are tempted to start looking at AKs don't overlook the rifles built by Jim Fuller. I haven't heard as consistently glowing reviews about anyone's AKs; especially if you consider price. One caveat, I'm not aware of him building rifles in anything other than 7.62x39 or 5.45x39.

Kel-Tec SU-16C i .223, will fire with stock folded. Nice, light, and small.

Kel-Tec Sub-2000 I've one that takes Glock 17 9mm mag as my bob gun.

LMT
Rock River Arms
Colt

If you want AK like reliability in a western .223 Package, I've heard good things about the SIG556. Reliable and accurate, however it is a tad heavy and mucho expensive.

Demonstration of a SIG556

Let me paraphrase ' what do you intend to survive' with ' who do you intend to assault?' I do not understand this whole sissy wieght issue. I had to 'high-port' around the 'grinder' for one hour in my 8th week of bootcamp. For the non initiates, 'High Porting' is double timing ( running) while lifting the rifle high in the air,down to the chest and then straight out in constant repetition, usuallly screaming some self depracating remark.I remember this, not for the reason, but for the 2nd week boot also high porting. I was passing him at the rate of 3 laps around Mr Grinder ( our asphalt parade/exercise square) for each agonised, march or die lap he completed half walking. The duty officer was so embarressed he cut me short after 15 minutes. Why? I was the last recruit company issued the M 1 Garand rifle and my Grinder mate was emulating Atlas with a M 16. Want something better than a star guage, match m 1 Garand? Buy two.

You must have been at Alameda!!!!! I was in Delta 114, how about you Chris???

My last highporting experience was 10 laps highporting with the pipes, immediately after having 2 wisdom teeth removed. After finishing that and spitting out a mouthful of blood, I got my butt chewed out for not giving the OOD my NFFD chit. He didn't like it when I pointed out that I had not been given the chance since I had failed to make the precise 30" steps up to his window.

Correction: M-1,,,you must have been at "skate May"

"...I was the last recruit company issued the M 1 Garand rifle and my Grinder mate was emulating Atlas with a M 16..."

OK, I gotta ask, who got the M-14???

(Oscar) Hotel 92 Alameda

nobody, the USCG skipped them.

I love my Mini 14 although I am seriously looking at the barrel harmonic dampener to dial in the accuracy. I don't have it scoped, but am considering putting one on. Your comment on the red dot is interesting. Mine came with the folding stock, but it works.

When I get the money it is going towards this...

Springfield Armory M1A SOCOM2

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=18

About as short in .308 as you can get. Drop it in a folding stock and it is about as compact as you can get (maybe 18" folded). It is a heavy mother though...

Bill

Too bad, they are a fine weapon. 'Cept the full auto version, that sucker is 'bout impossible to hang onto...

10.5 is kinda heavy. The ones I have handled didn't have that rail system, so they were lighter, and beautifully ballanced...

Chris dated himself with that one. I remember rifle quals with the M-1 Garand. Great rifle at 300 yds, even a novice could qualify. First time I'd shot anything bigger than my .22 bolt gun. Back in the 90's when CMP was trying to get them out the door so they weren't available to be crunched I did my part and bought my share of Garands -- still have them. I bought one to leave with my brother but he decided he liked the FAL better (nice rifle) so now I have an IHC Garand with a near new LMR barrel waiting for me in his safe.

It's a great battle rifle for a fixed position, but if you're packing stuff and you don't intend to take targets at extended range, the .223/5.56 rifles are probably the better choice. The rifle and the ammo are lighter which allows you to carry more of other things you may need in a bug-out scenario. I'm more for bugging in also, a Remington 870 12ga shotgun will greet the first few targets should that ugly scenario develop.

I was lucky enough to attend Colonel Jeff Cooper's GUNSITE school in Arizona. I showed up with a PO 8 Lugar artillary with stock and snail drum ( and handrolled ammo for 100% feed reliability) as a joke, the colonel despising the 9 MM. Of course, I also brought a 5 digit 1911. After the staff and students had a good laugh at his initial reaction, the Colonel took it out and had a'blast'shooting it. We discussed firearms, and I still agree. The 5.56 is a 'poodle gun' and I did use it in service. I would suggest looking at his SCOUT RIFLE concept which fits in very well with Walter Mitty, post apocalyptic scenarios. Again, a SMLE carbine or 1909 argentine carbine and many others are a few dollar cheap alternative. My 09 took a trigger stoning ( still two stage) and a MOJO drop in peep sight along with a polished feedramp. The round is a defacto .308- Paul Mauser got it right the first time! $200 and the rig outshot all kinds of fancy rigs last time out. Buy whatever makes you happy, but don't be suprised when a flintlock or SMLE takes a member of your party out. The afghans did this to the russians with Kalashnikovs.

I did the scout rifle thing, kind of. I just took a Mexican Mauser (small-ring) dated 1933 in 7x57 and cut the barrel to 16.25 inches. What a scream!! I haven't mounted an LER scope yet. The gun cost me $65.

I also took an FN Mauser (large-ring 98 action) in 8mm and rebarreled it in .35 Whelen. It had a 2-10X scope, and the barrel was a medium- weight Shilen cut to 20" with a "scooped" crowning job. The stock, as it turned out, was French walnut. That was worth the $99 I spent on the rifle alone. Not exactly a scout rifle, but a very nice shooter.

with the requirments you laid out in your post your are pretty much tying yourself into one of the better AR15 platforms. No knock there, they work fine for me. Forget the circa 1960's arguments about dirt build up, jamming, not reliable, bla bla bla
todays AR15's are very fine weapons.
If you were not adverse to the 7.62x39 cartridge I would look at one of the AK47 clones as well, but the AR15's from Bushmaster, Rock River, Armalite, Stag, etc are good stuff, and can generally be found in the $800-$1500 dollar range.

Someone posted a Kel-tec (you were kidding right) This is your life you are trying to defend here isn't it?

This is more common then one would think. I help my friend at his gun shop all the time. And it always amazes me when people will buy an inexpensive, low quality gun for protection. Personally I buy good guns & ammo so I know it’s going to shoot when I want or need it to.

That was me and no I wasn't. Doug has a Kel-Tec SU-16 Review on this website and it's not the low quality gun you may think. The only problem I've heard is of a guy who went through multiple mags rapid fire and melted some plastic vicinity of the gas port; that's where the hinge for the folding bipod is located. The rifle was still functional.

Will it compete with an M-4 in CQB or a match tuned AR-15 on a range? No, but one of its more important attributes is that the SU-16CA version is available in CA, while AR-15's and many other rifles in that class are not. A lot of us who grew up with the Garand and M-14 thought that the M-16 was a POS; now I have a rifle with even more plastic and it works fine.

This is the trouble that us newbees have. I was seriously considering the Kel-Tec SU-16, based on the price and the review here. Now there's people who know tons more than I do saying it's a joke. In the perfect world I'd be able to test all of the rifles I'm considering and pick the one I like the best. That's not possible. I intended to base my decision on a lot of research and then spend a lot of time learning my gun inside and out.
It's such a tough decision.

Visit your local gun shops, explain what you want to do & ask questions about what is well made and reliable, most gun shop people are good guys that will give good advice.

And understand guns, good guns cost money. They are tools that can and will outlast the owner. The price of a gun should be not be the first thing you use to determine if it’s for you. Name brands like Ruger, Colt, Glock, S&W Sig-Sauer, Beretta, Remington and many others are all good names that can be trusted to work.


I would go with a known quality brand name gun if you are going to bet your life on it.

It's like any expensive purchase. You do your research, you get ideas and advice, then you go out and check the item out in person. Just like you don't buy a new car without a test drive, you shouldn't buy a gun, knife, or any other tool you may have to rely upon without seeing it in person first and, if possible, testing it. As always, Caveat Emptor.

If you live in CA you're SOL for good options. If you live in a free state and have the option, save your money and buy a real AR such as a Bushmaster. Much more in the way of accessories, USGI parts and no worries with magazines.

I'll add that I wouldn't buy a gun from a manufacturer that won't stand behind the quality of their product. Firearms performance is just too critical not to have the best assurance possible.

My personal favorite is the FAL (as done by DSA). I can't imagine a situation in the lower 48 that it's not qualified to handle.

Having said that, I would still feel far from helpless with a good Enfield No.4 in my hands.
I actually think that if I had known what I was doing a few years ago, I would have just found a No.4 and stuck with it. IMO, military style rifles are great and everyone should have one, but I don't think they're as much of a necessity as many seem to believe.

Unfortunately, I am soured on many of the "good" name brands because of some of the lousy gun's they've turned out. In the past couple years I've had two of the "higher" quality AK's defective out of the box and SIG Sauer was unable to fix a P-226 I owned and tried to stick me with it. I had to act like a jerk to get them to pony up a replacement gun, which I promptly sold before I could get into another screaming match with their customer service people.
I'd advise testing whatever you get extensively, or better yet, finding someone locally who is selling what you want and trying the gun before you buy it.

I've been waiting decades for Ruger to come to the realization that they need to make a scaled up version of their mini-14 in 308 win/7.62 NATO cartridge. Then again, that'd just be a Springield M1-A I suppose.

Benjammin,

Ruger's original intent was to make the Mini-14 in .308. I remember in the 80's when they were floating the idea. If I remember correctly they had some sort of issues with the action and the .308 cartridge. That is why they went with the 7x39. Less OOOMPH I guess.

My two cents and foggy memory.

Check your PM's

Yes, I remember the same. I was hoping they would eventually learn to beef up the action so they could use the more powerful cartridge. I suppose they came to the same conclusion; a beefed up Mini-14 becomes an M-1a.

Oh well if Doug has a review on it then what am I thinking...

Mark,
Do you have any experience with teh SU-16 you'd like to offer?

I had an opportunity to shoot a friends Kel Tec. With cheap ammo
it was giving me 9" groups off the bench (5 shots at 100 yards).
Very light tho. My 30-30 handy gave 3" groups with open sights
at the same time.

I'd suggest the Bushmaster ACR. Price is supposed to be $1500-$1600, modular design and construction (3 stocks, 3 forearms and a number of barrel lengths to choose from) so you can configure it as a SBR entry carbine (If you're willing to do the paperwork and pay the $200 NFA transfer tax.) on up to a precision/marksman's rifle and anything in between. It has ambidextrous controls, is 1/2 lb. lighter than a comparable AR, uses AR/M16 magazines, has gas piston operation and a quick change barrel system.

Another advantage with the modular design is they have plans to release conversions in various calibers including 6.8 SPC and 7.62x39 so you'd have even more versatility without having to buy or carry extra complete rifles. Myself, I'm planning on having an extra 18" barrel made in 6.5 MPC which is more appropriate for deer, feral pigs and black bear, (.223 not being legal for deer hunting here.) and only requires changing out the barrel as you'll see from the videos.

AR15 Shot Show 2008 video

YouTube-Future Weapons:Magpul Masada (Bushmaster ACR) video

Only drawback is that it hasn't been released for sale yet but it's due out sometime this summer.

I see no need for an Ar-15 or M-16 for a survival situation, even less so with a full auto one.

Yea they are fun to shoot and burn up ammo like crazy, but survival needs are better met with something else.

Russ, I do not own one (nor would I) but I have handled several of Kel-tec's other models. I have been around firearms my whole life, it is a passion of mine, and I can tell you just from observation of the design, materials, and QC in the Kel-tec line that it does not meet MY standards of what I want to defend MY life with.
I'll shoot cans with you all day long with one though!

If you want to see a cheaper light semi-auto (though not in .223) that I would stand behind Here ya go:
The Beretta CX4 Storm
9mm
.40 S&W
.45 ACP

(make mine a 40 S&W)

http://www.cx4storm.com/

Probably a nice rifle, but I doubt it's available in CA. That availability thing is a prerequisite to buying one.

They sell them at our local Gander Mountain here in Virginia.
Not sure what the laws are out there in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia....lol

AR-15's aren't illegal in CA, but there are restrictions on how you can configure it. I can go out to my gunshop and pick one up today if I wanted to. In fact, a majority of the firearms aren't "illegal" in CA, it's just that some are much harder to acquire (legally) than others.

I would buy one of those. I'd like a carbine in a pistol caliber.

From the OP: Since he's in AZ, there should be no reason to settle for an SU-16 and I see no reason to go to a pistol caliber. Get a Bushmaster AR-15

Not true. There are way you can have a removable mag, or a higher capacity mag, or even some of the evil features like pistol grips with semi-removable mags, but at the expense of other features. So while you may not be able to get exactly the configuration you want, you're not as limited as you might think. It's complicated, best to do some research. A quick google will pull up a lot of sites like this.

http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaRiflesU15.pdf

IMO an AR with a fixed magazine is useless; what's the point? FYI, at tenpercentfirearms.com one place they sell the MonsterMan grip is the following quote:
My three AR-15's are all "on-list" weapons so the lower receiver alone constitutes an assault rifle, let alone all the "evil features". Nahh, if it comes down to me needing something for HD, I'll use a 12 ga pump, the only evil features come out the barrel 9 at a time.

Be careful putting too much stock in websites like that one, which states that "...a bullet...is a tool..." I was researching the Bullet Button a few days ago, and went to the CA DOJ website. Did a search there and came up with a new ruling from DOJ that a bullet or cartridge IS NOT considered a tool, thereby making the Bullet Button (or anything similar) unapproved in CA.

Sorry that I can not cut and paste that info, for some reason I can't get the page to come up tonight (probably the 40+ mph winds and my aircard not being compatable)...

Sorry, getting further off the original topic, but I think it's an important point. And IANAL so if it's really important to any readers, consult a real attorney.

OBG, I believe that reading the explanation at a site like this explains that the CA DOJ never actually went through the process of making that memo a legal regulation. As it stands now, the law is pretty clear about what is considered a "detachable magazine". The CA DOJ was trying to "clarify" the law in that 2006 memo by requiring that any modifications, like the Bullet Button, had to be "permanent" but the wording of the original law makes no such distinction and the DOJ itself did not require such modifications to be permanent before this 2006 memo.

That memo is just a memo. The CA DOJ tried to submit a new regulation to that effect, but let it die and the time limit to approve that change has expired. So, for now, the Bullet Button, Prince50, etc. are not illegal unless the CA DOJ submits a new resolution to make them illegal and gets that through the regulatory approval process.

Anyway, for anyone interested in learning about how Californians can own "assault weapons," that first link up above is a good summary. The webpage also has a link to the 2006 CA DOJ memo in question.

There is some confusion on that issue, and the laws may change soon. But as far as I know the current bullet button is NOT illegal to use, and the DOJ has approved a bullet as a tool. This site has a very good section regarding the laws, without it I would never be able to keep up with the laws in CA because the laws change every few months.

http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

I still wouldn't trust any legal advice I find on the internet, but at least I can keep up with the new changes and it can lead me to the information I'm looking for.

For some it's a grey area, and not worth the risk to get hassled by an uniformed LEO. So some people (like me) don't use it and just use a mag lock kit instead. I'm just pointing out that the AR-15 is NOT illegal in CA, and you're not limited to 10 round fixed mags.

Edit: Looks like Arney beat me to it. Like I said, don't believe most of what you read on the internet, but you have to do the research for yourself.

Not being able to bring up the DOJ site yet, I bow to your knowledge, thanks...

Is this is the page you were referring to?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23.pdf

Section 978.20a

I had to use google to find it because their search engine wouldn't bring it up.

Anyway, back to the original topic. The OP doesn't even live in CA, so I doubt he's interested in the legal obstacles we have to go through.

I agree totally, my point was more of cost. If you are trying to go "cheaper", then the Beretta is a option. If cost is not an issue, As a lefty I go Stag arms all the way, but for the righties a lot more options. Bushy's, Rock River, Armalite, etc etc.

I've read more than one favorable review of the Kel-Tec. And its on my list for BOB weapons ...should I be able to find one at the same time I have $$$ to buy it.
I am philsophically opposed to putting $1000 weapons in a BOB. Too much money tied up. At the same time ... you want a quality tool if its the only one you bring. And a Kel-Tec is the most portable & compact magazine fed option for the cost...IMHO.
Though maybe a pistol caliber equivalent is out there.
I was hoping to bug out without needing a trailer to haul my stuff ... yet no leave too many expensive supplies and weapons to be ranscked from my home in my absence.
I still haven't rationalized it all in my mind.
I may get a folding stock for an SKS Carbine and call it good enough. Though the Kel-tec still folds down smaller. And is probably lighter.
Once the need/desire for rifle type fire power is determined ...sacrifices in portability etc are gonna happen.
Bottom line ... I think the Kel-tec would be durable enough to ge the job done.

I owned a Kel-Tec .223. I think it was a SU-16(?). The folding stock .223 that does not fire with the stock folded. I found it to be wildly inaccurate. The problem seems to be that the barrel is not supported well. If I changed my "hold" the point of aim and point of impact would deviate by more than 5" at 100 yds. If I used the bi-pod, the POI/POA shifted by at least 2" in a random way.

I also found the penetration ability of the .223 to be lacking. Sold the Kel-Tec and bought a Siga 762x39. Much better rifle, cheaper and more reliable. Much heavier though. Suits my needs well.


I strongly suggest you shoot the kel-tec before you buy.

I'm glad I read your post. I was thinking of eventually getting one of the KT .223s for my wife. My thinking was lightweight, compact, cheap, in that order. I also like the ability to fire certain models in the wildly improbable off-chance it would be needed to be employed from a confined space, mainly from inside a car.

I some KT pistols, and I've found them to be highly reliable after careful break-in and a good "fluff and buff" treatment, resonably accurate within self-defense range, and inexpensive.

Do you, or anyone else, have reports of actual first-hand experience with the KT .223s?

Jeff

None with the KT, but if you want a .223 with a folding stock, I used to own a Ruger Mini-1f BGF (fifth rifle down here that I was more than happy with. It could be fired with the stock folded, and when extended it was very solid, not like some folding stocks. I'm not sure that they even make them anymore, and when I got mine I had to supply a letter from my department showing that I was a full time peace officer and would be using the weapon on duty (it was a real trick getting that too), but you can probably find one on the market if you look...

Interesting. Would an anti-gun person know enough about guns to even make that distinction?

Jeanette Isabelle

"...Would an anti-gun person know enough about guns to even make that distinction..."

Unfortuately yes. And if they don't, they just hire someone to do the research for them...

Like I said about the Kel Tec 223. Off of sandbags it was giving
9" groups without changing point of hold at 100 yds.

I did not mean to imply all KT arms are inferior. I carry a K-T P3AT (very compact and simple to operate .380 automatic pistol) and find it to be a very reliable weapon.