What Gun?

Reading about Fabio’s decision to buy a gun and the responses to his post has me wondering what everyone conceders a good survival gun and what do they have for this purpose. And why did you choose that gun?



Probably the best survival gun I own is a hinge gun. It’s a Savage model 24, a 22 LR over a 20 gauge shotgun. It’s not quite a single shot. With 2 barrels, I can get off a second shot fast.

A 22 LR is good for small game; the shotgun barrel is also good for small game with small size shot (size 6 shot.) But it also can take down larger game with a slug and buckshot makes a great home defense round, with the 22 as a follow up if needed.

It breaks down to a shorter length; I could fit it in a backpack if I wanted to. I like shooting it, not as much as a scoped bolt action, but it’s still fun to shoot. And I practice with it enough to have a good feel for it. As I do with most of the guns I have.

I also conceder the Thompson Center Contender a great survival gun, I have several barrels for it, but the Savage is a better choice because of the versatility of it.

Short Magazine Lee Enfield, AKA SMELLY. The .303 military cartridge with 10 round magazine capacity and very rapid bolt cycling will outrange and deliver greater potential accuracy than half the sturgewar being pushed at 10 times the cost. It is still one of the most popular world rounds. Get a pocket LEE LOADER, a box of the splendid OZ made Rhino 215 grain bullets and you duplicate, even better the famous Dominion load renowned in Canada for moose and bear.The rifle was made to take field abuse and still go bang. Lightwieght, combination guns have a long history and practicality. But the modern concept comes mostly from military needs for an easily stowed and light firearm in aircraft. Give me a jar of peanut butter, some mouse and rat traps and wire and I'll catch more mice and squirrels while building Fort Zinderhoff with my wire saw than 10 guys stalking the perimeter. You can even fit the thing with a bayonet if the squirrels charge or you lose your survival knife. I like the simple pointed rod version. It's great for marshmellow roasts.

Survival gun? 10/22. Or a 12 GA.

I call my Number 5 (Jungle Carbine) my poor mans assault rifle...

Although perhaps not exactly what your post intended, I consider my Glock G27 (.40 S&W caliber) to be my primary “survival” weapon. I have extended the magazine release, added Trijicon Tritium Self-Illuminating Night Sights, and carry two spare +1 (10 round) magazines. Ammunition is typically Federal Premium 155 or 180 Gr. Hydra-Shok jacketed hollow points. I like this pistol because it offers adequate stopping power along with excellent concealabillity. Glocks are arguably one of the most reliable handguns available, and have always had a reputation for trouble-free performance.

For home defense, I have a Remington 870 Express Magnum Synthetic 12 Gauge Shotgun with the 18” barrel. It’s currently configured for 5 shot capacity, although I may upgrade to the 7 shot magazine tube at some point. It's generally loaded with Remington 2 3/4” LE Reduced Recoil 00 Buckshot, although I keep 3” Magnum 00 Buckshot and 3” Magnum Slugs in an Uncle Mike’s neoprene 5 shell buttstock holder . As I've mentioned before, I typically only keep four rounds in the tube so that I always have the ability to rack a shell into the chamber for "auditory" persuasion -- less-than-lethal force is always the best option, if available.

To fend off all the zombies that will be running around at TEOTWAWKI, I have a Colt AR-15 A3 Tactical Carbine chambered for 5.56 x 45mm NATO/.223 Remington (Model 6721). The barrel is a 16.1" shorty HBAR with a 1 in 9" twist, but at 32" and only 7 pounds, it's pretty easy to move around in the woods with. I've never felt the need to trick it out with a bunch of tactical crap, although I have added a Hogue Grip with Finger Grooves and a half dozen 30 round Magpul PMAG polymer magazines. I have a synthetic A2 buttstock assembly that I can swap out for the sliding buttstock if I need to be a little more low-key. Hornady 55 Gr. TAP Law Enforcement (.223 Remington) is the only ammo that I use in this gun, and is accurate out to 600 meters.

Jim

Survival: 12ga. Mossberg 5XX w/ turkey barrel & c-lect choke system
combined with a .22LR pump rifle or pistol depending on situation.

My feeling is that in a survival situation you'd be less concerned about taking big game (except maybe during very long term survival). Birds, squirrels, rabbits, etc. are probably more likely to be on the menu. And these would be hunted at short range. For that ... I'd actually prefer my air rifle (I'm not talking about a kids BB gun, I'm talking about modern adult airguns which are quite powerful).

More accurate than any of my other firearms, no recoil to speak of to make shooting difficult, doesn't need cleaning like a firearm, easily able to kill small game with a single shot, quiet (doesn't scare game away), and the pellets are very cheap and you can carry a good thousand of them in something the size of your wallet.

I might reconsider if this were going to be my ONLY gun. Might reconsider. Once you can get past the hit to any macho ego that may be in the way, airguns can be extremely practical.

Mine is a 30-30, lee loader with 135 gr. and 180 gr. bullets. In my pack is a 357 mag. and on my hip I might have my Ruger MK I 22cal. In my truck I have a 22/410

My M6 Scout - No longer made - has been the best all-around hunting gun for me - even with the puny .410 I've taken deer (slug/head shot @ 30 yards) For rabbit & squirrel it's fine with HP .22

I have an AR-7 which is more of a fun gizmo than a really good gun. We come around this topic a lot, it's fun.

Martin:
I wanted a M6 but buy the time I was able to buy one they were up to $300. +, Now I stay with my Bower Rabbit and just keep repairing it.

I have a Gamo Shadow 1000. This is a .177 caliber, 1000 f.p.s. air rifle. Synthetic stock, came with a 4x32 scope. Cost me $99 (actually it was free if you count the Cabelas Club points I used to buy it).

The most common calibers are .177 and .22, with .22 being better for hunting (more whallop downrange) and .177 being better for target shooting (flatter trajectory).

Check out http://www.pyramydair.com/ for a good representation of what is available. For an air rifle useful for hunting, you're talking $100 at the low end. Most fall into the $100-$200 range. Higher price gets you fancier stocks and things that would be of interest to high accuracy target shooters or professional hunters. The Gamo I bought was a refurb, which is why it was only $99. You can find a very decent airgun for $99 on clearance right now here:

http://natchezss.com/category.cfm?conten...dID=GN611005654

This is basically like my Shadow 1000 with a wood stock and no scope. A very decent looking scope (which I don't own yet, but I will soon) is:

http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=1683

One note: If you buy a "breakbarrel" air rifle, also known as a "springer", make sure you buy an airgun rated scope for it. Airgun recoil is very mild, but it is different than firearm recoil. Firearm recoil is backward only, airgun (if a "springer") is both backwards and forwards. That type of recoil will destroy a scope not designed for it. CO2 powered airguns have zero recoil, it's the springers that I'm talking about here. Springer recoil is much milder than even a .22 firearm, but it's the two-way nature of it that kills regular scopes.

I also have a Crosman 1377 air pistol. $49. Many air pistols, especially the ones that try to look like bad-ass firearms, are just junk toys. And they cost more than better pistols like a Crosman 1377 or 2240.

[edit]
p.s. - The secret to accuracy with a springer is hold. You don't grasp a springer like you would a firearm. You set it lightly in your hands. It wants to move backwards and forwards just a smidgen when you fire it. Let it. The trick is to let it move the same way each time you fire it. I use an open hand on the fore grip. Just set it there in my open palm. My fore grip is slightly forward of the trigger guard - but it's a different spot on different rifles. Technically this open grip will give you better groups with a firearm too, but they are not as sensitive to grip as a springer is. Also, an open grip on a firearm might wipe out your shoulder from the recoil!
[/edit]

While I can't argue with any of the other choices, I'd like to suggest either an M1 carbine, or a .357 magnum rifle, paired with a suitable handgun. Those rifles have just a little more recoil than a .22 but not much. The noise signature isn't too loud either which can be either good or bad. I value my hearing over a gunshot signal so I think its good.

As to their ability, I have taken deer with both and the performed better than I expected, especially the .30 carbine. I expected the .357 to be up to the task but the carbine suprised me with over 5' of penetration.

The advantage of the .357 is that it shares ammunition with commonly found revolvers, but can only be found in single shot, lever, or pump action. The latter two are tube fed and all are slower to load, and require movement to reload a second shot.

The M1 carbine being a magazine fed semi-auto is faster to load, and reload and doesn't require movement to chaber a second shot. The M1 is also smaller than most .357 carbines, and weighs in at about 5 pounds. Unfortunatly prices have skyrocketed on them in the last few years.

Just my two cents worth.

Hi Bob,

I like your thoughts on the old Savage 24 in .22/20ga as a survival gun, last summer I bought one in the Camper Companion version. It is very handy and I take it to my camp to hunt grouse in the fall or for vermin control (nuisance porcupines, red squirrels or black bears).

The variety of ammo available (20ga. shot, buckshot or slugs / sub-sonic .22's CB caps to CCI Stingers) help make this combination gun a very versatile, lightweight package.

I have been working on a method to store a very basic mini-survival kit within a plastic tube in the butt of the gun instead of 2 spare shotgun shells. Like most of my projects lately this one has not gotten off the idea stage due to other time commitments. I bought this Savage 24 used and it did not come with the original take-down case, I need to try it in the case for the Marlin Papoose to see if it will fit?

I did have trouble getting the fold-up sight on rifle barrel to hit at point of aim, if I remember correctly I think I ran out of elevation adjustment. I changed the front sight to compensate for this but the plan is to replace the rear open sight with a large diameter peep sight.

I liked the recent post by fs1911 about shotgun barrel inserts, that may turn the 20ga. barrel into a .30-30 or 30/40 Krag and make it a better big game gun. Does anyone have any experience with these inserts in a Savage 24? http://www.mcace.com/Insertsindex.htm

I also have a Rem. 870 Pump 12ga. with a folding stock and 20" Rem. choke, rifle sighted barrel. I often take this on walks in the fall to hunt northern grouse (very dumb birds) while the moose season is on. If I happen on to a calf moose while on my stroll a quick change over to a slug followed by a close stalk, could result in a lot of good eating. I cannot say I am fond of the folding metal stock, although it is more compact for storage. I often just leave the regular synthetic buttstock on as it is more comfortable to shoot with.

Survival firearms are always a fun topic, lots of different opinions!

Mike

Best survival gun? Probably the one you have when you need it. No use buying a .500 S&W if you aren't going to have it near you when you need it.

With that said, I've always had a few favorites when it comes to firearms in general. I'll just list them all.

1. A .22LR rifle. Preferably one that has a detachable magazine and is either bolt action or autoloading. They're great because, in general, they're inexpensive to buy, inexpensive to shoot, easy to carry, easy to shoot, and ammo is everywhere.

2. A good air rifle. Like haertig, I'm a fan of them. They're great for basically the same reasons a .22LR is, with two other added bonuses.

The first is, you could fit 500 pellets in the space of 50 .22LR. The ammunition is about as compact as you can get. The second is, they don't require a casing and powder charge, so as long as you can get your hands on some metal and a way to form it into a rough pellet, you can shoot it. You could probably even shoot small pebbles, though I don't know how they would do ballistically. A .22LR, OTOH, becomes about as useful as a stick once you run out of ammo.

Basically, A pellet gun allows for the carrying of more ammo, and it might still be useful after you run out of premade pellets. The trade-off though is it's even less powerful than a .22LR rifle on average, and a .22LR isn't exactly all that powerful to begin with.

3. A lever action carbine and revolver combo, or possibly a more modern carbine/pistol combo. Take for example, a .357 lever action and a .357 revolver. The ammunition is relatively small and light compared to larger rifle ammunition, but still plenty powerful for most game in NA. You only have to carry one ammunition type, which makes things a lot easier. You could shoot both .38's and .357's if need be, and both .38 special and .357 mag are pretty common.

You could use shot shells to take out small game, or full magnum loads on larger game or predators. If you have another person with you, you could loan them one of the firearms and some ammo to try and cover more ground or to have more firepower. I could go on and on, but a carbine and pistol in the same, readily available, smaller caliber are one of my favorite outdoor combos. I've even heard of .44 Magnum carbines and revolvers being used to hunt bear.

4. A 12 gauge smooth bore shotgun. While heavy and a bit rough to shoot, it's probably one of the versatile and well-proven firearms out there, along with the .22. Sure, I wouldn't want to carry it plus a few hundred rounds if I didn't have to, but it's great to keep around the house. In fact, I know of quite a few people around here whose only firearms were a shotgun and a .22, they're like the bread-and-butter of the firearms world, at least in NA. Besides, the sound of a pump action shotgun slide racking is still the fastest way to get an unwelcome guest out of your house.

5. A bolt action .308 or .30.06., again generally heavy and tough to shoot, but they pack a wallop and are great at distances greater than a stones throw. Not as versatile as a shotgun, but just as well proven.

6. An "AR" type rifle. Originally I wasn't a huge fan of the AR and .223, but its started to grow on me. They're a surprisingly versatile platform. Rifle versions, carbine versions, pistol versions, .22 or 9mm conversions, match grade barrels, open sights or optics, rails for various add-ons. In effect you can make an AR for just about anything, just by changing lowers and uppers. I think I've seen them used in every application, except for big game hunting. That says a lot about them.


Now, I'm no expert, like I said those are just a few of my favorites based on what I like in firearms (common, easy to find ammo for, versatility, ect). Everyone is going to have their own opinion. When it comes to firearms there is always a trade-off somewhere. None of them are perfect in every situation. That's why you have to pick one you're comfortable with using and possibly carrying, become proficient with it, and hope that's all you'll ever need.

I second the recommendation about the .357mag rifle/carbine. The Rossi that I have is a lever action and has a flat trajectory for approximately 100 yards; after that the round is into the dirt. The carbine that I have also uses .38spl which is another very common round.

If the M1 Carbine is your personal choice, then the Rugar Blackhawk .30cal carbine six shooter is an excellent sidearm to make use of. With the 6" or 8" barrel, it is very accurate and due to the low recoil factor, it is easy to double tap as well.

Since I entered this thread, I'll go the rest of the way.
For in-home defense, I recommend a 12ga with #4 or #6 shot. It has a great spread but insufficient power and penetration to get through your neighbor's walls and harm them.

The 9mm is also a great in-home defense sidearm since it is great for close-up but lacks the means to get to your neighbors sleeping next door.

That's my 2 cents, YMMV.

Great idea on the storage kit. I have 3-22 and 1 shotgun shell stored in the stock of mine.

I got my Savage 24 for free, My friend that owns a gun shop gave it to me years ago for doing some stuff for him. It’s an old gun, so old it has no serial number stamped into it. It’s in great shape and shoots better then I can hold it.



I have a Marlin 1894 357 Mag lever action rifle and never shoot it any more. I should have sent it back to Marlin to find out why it shoots a 12 ½ inch group at 100-yards. But I never got around to it.

I had a Marlin until my son started hunting and decided he wanted it after taking his first deer with it. Mine needed jacket bullets, and was fine. Lead bullets shot a pattern not a group (think buckshot)unless I was shooting .38 spl wadcutters. Which incidently made a pop as they exited the barrel an no other noise. I think it had to do with the micro- groove rifling in them.

I recomend that you clean the barrel and make sure all lead is out of it which can be a pain. Then try jacketed bullets. My son's rifle likes Federal American Eagle 158 grain JSP's and Magtech's in the same style. It shoots better than we can hold it. Or about 1 1/2" at 100 yards. I did change the sights as the original bead front sight covered the black of a 25 yard pistol target at 100 yards. I put a plain thin post with a peep rear and removed the rear sight from the barrel.

I tried every bullet weight from 110 gr to 220 gr, Jacketed, half jacketed, soft lead, hard cast lead, 9-mm bullets, 358 Winchester rifle bullets (250 gr) I tried all kinds of different gun powder and it still shoots a 12 ½ inch group.

I have a Marlin Camp-9, 9-mm rifle and it shoots a 4 inch group at 100 yards, I wish the 357 rifle did that.

.22LR is an excellent choice for survival gun and could be an excellent first aquisition. Carry a great deal of inexpensive ammo, serviceable for most food you are likely to bag (rabbit, squirrel, porcupine, beaver, even deer), low report if not revealing your location is a consideration.

In this heavily forested area even a 75 to 100-yard shot is often unlikely due to dense underbrush, and at 50 or 75-yards a .22LR performs surprising well.

My .22 holds 16 rounds in the tube, semi-auto. Good overall rife and handy in a variety of situations, even self-defense.

add a 12 gauge shotgun

plus one of the following .308, 30-06, 30-30

plus a good handgun

Plus a couple thousand rounds for each minimum

Plus cleaning supplies and spare parts and you are all set come what may.

I would have to go with Chris's suggestion for the Lee Enfield .303 No4. 4 inch groups with the iron sights at 200 yards is acheivable and with a 4x Scope fitted around 600 yards for again a 4 inch group. At 1000 yards with a bit more care taking into account windage should get you around 8 to 12 inch groups. It will also work in conditions where most other modern military rifles begin to fail. It is also very well balanced for handling making it easier/just as easy to handle than most military rifles despite being a few pounds heavier. I believe you can get them for a few hundred dollars in the US. Cheaper than a good air rifle and yet more lethal than something like an M16 or AR15.

And then attend an Appleseed .

Downside ALWAYS to the Carbine is ammo. It is a pain to find, pricey (or sketchy) when you find it, and mostly loaded to the military pressure with the FMJ bullet.

A good pump in .357 or .44 would do a lot of business I think.

Then again, a .44Mag/12ga combo gun would be nice to.

A MilSurp Enfield (even with great optics) will post 4" groups at 600 or 8" groups at 1000? Unless I'm mistaken (which is possible I'm not an expert on Enfields by any stretch) I think most folks would be thrilled with getting an Enfield to shoot one MOA after a good deal of work; let alone off the shelf.

No argument on the versatility of the cartridge or the Enfield rifle.

FWIW I'm not sure that shooting >600 yards is going to be likely for many of us in a survival situation anyway.

Hi 7point82,



The first time I had used a Lee Enfield No4 was when I was about 14 years old on the Local Barry Budden ranges viewable on google maps here at

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=N+56.4823+W+2.7901&ie=UTF8&ll=56.482295,-2.790098&spn=0.00865,0.02223&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr

There might be some differences in terminology but I'm not really an expert in shooting. A distance group is the maximum distance between the holes made on a target for five individual shots (where the shots landed on the target is of no importance). There might be some differences in defining a group by the expert marksmen over in the US.

Using the iron sights I was getting 4 inch groupings at 200 metres or 220 yards within the first 10-20 rounds I had fired using the standard Lee Enfield No4 again without any special preperations to the weapon. Going on to use the No 4 with a scope was pretty good fun as well. Actually it would have been a Enfield No4 with 3.5 scope not a 4x (as I first mentioned) as in this photo,



45 Royal Marine Commando do most of their live firing at this range in preperation for their tours in Afghanistan. Apparently there have been some complaints about the increased noise by the members of the local Monifieth Ashludie golf course putting them off their aim.

A buddy of mine has a Jungle Carbine version of the Enfield. I've never compared the accuracy of the full size to the jungle, but even with the short jungle carbine I was having no problem hitting #10 cans from 100 yards. It's a neat rifle and certainly packs a wallop. The metal butt on the stock certainly puts a hurting on your shoulder firing it all day.

Hey Fear!

4" at 200 sounds reasonable (2 MOA) but that's a long way from 4" at 600 (.66 MOA).

A 1" group @ 100 yards = 1 MOA, 2" @200 = 1MOA,,, 10" @ 1000 yards equals 1 minute of angle (MOA). Ten shot <1 MOA happens at 1000 yards but not with any off the shelf rifles that I'm aware of.

Edited to add: Wow. It only took me two and a half years to make Journeyman! lol

The biggest drawback I see to the Enfield for those of us in the US is that other cartridges are so much easier to find. You can find .270, .30-30, .308 & .30-06 everywhere over here. .303 is a might harder to come by. At least it is in my neck of the woods.

Hi 7point82,

The Lee Enfield No4 Mk 1 (T) with the 3.5x scope was actually regarded as a sniping rifle. The rechambered 7.62mm NATO round offered very little improvement over the 0.303 round especially compared to the Mk8 ammunition.

A number of No4s were converted to 7.62 NATO (Enfield L39A1, L42A1 )and became the standard sniper rifle, which was still in use well into the mid eighties. There was very little difference in terms of performance between the Enfield No4 Mk1 (T) and the L39A1, L42A1.

The L39A1 and L42A1s were replaced with the L96A1 (L96) in the mid eighties giving a somewhat marginal improvement in accuracy. The L96A1 can shoot less than 2" (51mm) groups at the distances of 600 yards (550m) or greater than 0.5 MOA using boat-tail match ammunition.

Try using two empty 12 guage and two empty 20 guage shells. IIRC the 20 will slide into the 12 rather snugly. Trim whatever one to use as a cap/plug for the other. YMMV.

Hi MoBOB,

Thanks for reminding me of this shotgun shell container trick.

I have done this in the past but I used a 12ga. hull and a .16ga hull. I used them as matchcases when I was a Scout and I think I still have one in the toolkit of my snowmobile (I should check those matches, that was 30 years ago). I first learned this method from the Bradford Angler book "The Art and Science of Taking to the Woods" (page 276, Homemade Gear). I have the book in front of me now and had forgotten how good a reference it is.

In the case of my Savage 24 combo-gun buttstock storage idea I would have to enlarge the hole to accept the larger 12ga. shell, I will have to measure the available space to do this; or try the trick using smaller gauge shells.

My first thought was to use a thin-walled plastic tube like you used in your recent EDC photopost, or maybe an aluminum cigar tube (think I borrowed that idea from Hacksaw).

At present I am very busy at work and with the youth group so the making of "combo-gun buttstock mini-PSK" may have to wait till the dull days of next January!

Mike

I love the .22/20ga camper special. Get a butt stock elastic 5 or 6 shell carrier with a flap. Sew a bunch of .22 loops on the inside of the flap for extra ammo. You can carry 1 or 2 12 ga "survival kits" and fill the remainder of the carrier with 20 ga shells, plus 10 & 2 in the butt.
I'm thinking of having my .22/.410 Savage 24 cut down to 18" barrels. A deluxe M6. A rifle caliber elastic shell carrier fits .410 shells very nicely!

This business of 'finding ammo' is a very dangerous falsehood. We are not Wolverines bursting into the sporting goods store 5 minutes ahead of Spetsnaz paratroopers o.k.? You buy your prefered piece. You buy ammunition for it- now. A former acquaintance went hunting with a .30-06. He forgot his ammunition and dropped by a local sporting goods store. They were sold out of .30-06 ammo. It seems a bunch of locals used .30-06 too.

I liked that movie!

The 303 British round doesn’t make as much sense in the USA as the 3006 does. You can walk into about any store that sells ammo and find 3006, not the case with the 303. And the 3006 pushes the same bullet 300 to 400 feet faster.

"...It seems a bunch of locals used .30-06 too..."

What? Others like the '06? I am shocked!

Last year we "worked" at a place in Wyoming, it had a sporting goods section. Only ammo hard to keep on hand was .30-06 and .300 Winchester Mag...

I agree with you for the most part but I sure don't see a lot of modern bullet designs loaded for things like .303. I certainly didn't picture the Red Dawn scenario.

The diversity (and availability) of modern ammunition for cartridges like the 7.62x51 is, IMO, not something you should completely overlook.

If a person chooses to buy a couple of thousand rounds and sit on them for 30 years then it wouldn't be a factor. It also wouldn't be a big factor if you plan to shoot ball ammo exclusively.

For folks like me that keep a fair number of rounds on hand but shoot them and rotate them through on a regular basis it is a factor. For anyone interested in shooting modern bullets it would be a larger factor too.

As always YMMV.

I have a Gamo Master Hunter in .22. It takes birds and small game with ease.



I actually inherited one of these old Savages. It needed a new stock, and had a broken firing pin on the .22, but since it's been fixed, it is fun as all get out to shoot, and effective as well.

Greg

I'm kind of the same way, I tend to prefer firearms in calibers that are easy to find locally and farely common. Such as .22LR, .223, .30-30, .308 Win, .30-06 Springfield, and .300 Win Mag. Even walmarts around here seem to be well stocked with all those calibers and they can take care of just about anything in the states. Though, I would probably want something like .383 Win Mag or maybe .375 H&H if I was up in Alaska, those brown bears are huge.

I agree, the M6 Scout, Although sometimes found with a .22 Hornet over the .410.

good news is you can take it apart and put it in a pack.

If you like that, try a J.P. Sauer and son drilling, more innocuous than the military looking M6. Of course, priced a lot higher. normally 12x12 with a 7x57 tube underneath. sometimes a
16x16 x something as well.

I've one in .22lr and a stainless one in .22 Hornet. Better be sitting down when you buy .22 hornet ammo. I carry it as my "pack" gun. I'm not intending to fire 1000's of rounds through it, but it had reasonable range and far better hitting power than a .22lr. Not too bad on small game, doesn't tear them up too bad.

Welcome Newguy!!!

This is a perfect example of someone quoting a completely mythical effective range for a rifle. Run a ballistics calculator, and you'll see that a .303 174gr spire point bullet starting out at 2400fps drops 288", or 24 feet, at 750 yards, or 56 FEET at 1000. If you can hold the height of a five story building over a target the size of a dinner plate, you're a better shot than I.

We need to check our facts before we go quoting life-or-death techniques here, folks.

David

For most people 300-yards (maybe 400 at most) is about all you can expect them to hit a dinner plate sized target, even with a scoped rifle.


A good varmint hunter can do better then that (a lot better) but most don’t shoot as well as they tell themselves (and tell others) they can.

2 liter pop bottles are great targets to practice on. They are about the size of a woodchucks body and you can easily see the results when you get a hit. The holes in a paper plate are hard to see even when looking through a 22 power scope or a 30 power spotting scope.

"...If you can hold the height of a five story building over a target the size of a dinner plate..."

You could just adjust your sights and aim at the target, that is what I used to do when I shot 1000 yards with an '03 Springfield...

Hi bigmbogo




I've tried to get some data on the Mk8 .303, this was the best I could find although the balistic Coefficient is just an estimate being boat-tail ammunition.

Muzzle velocity - 2,550 ft/s (780m/s).
Weight - 175 gr
Balistic Coefficient 0.55

giving the following data calculated from http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

Range 200 yards ; Drop -6 inches ; Velocity 2249.8 ft/sec Mach 1.994 ; Energy 1966.5 ftlbs ; Time 0.121 sec

Range 400 yards ; Drop -39.7 inches ; Velocity 1966.2 ft/sec Mach 1.743 ; Energy 1502.0 ftlbs ; Time 0.536 sec

Range 600 yards ; Drop -103 inches ; Velocity 1707.1 ft/sec Mach 1.513 ; Energy 1132.2 ftlbs ; Time 0.863 sec

Range 800 yards ; Drop -227.4 inches ; Velocity 1477.6 ft/sec Mach 1.310 ; Energy 848.3 ftlbs; Time 1.241 sec

Range 1000 yards ; Drop - 409.0 inches ; Velocity 1286.1 ft/sec Mach 1.140 ; Energy 642.6 ftlbs; Time 1.678 sec

The drop is around 34 feet for 1000 yards using Mk8 ammo. The drop isn't really the problem its how consistant and how predictable the drop is to acheive accurate groups. It should also be noted that at 800 yards the 0.303 still has more lethality energy than the M16 NATO 5.56x45 mm at 400 yards or the AK-47 7.62x39 at 300 yards. I think that the Lee Enfield No4 has iron sights graduated up to 1500 yards or about 1 mile (its been years since I've held one) but the usable range using iron sight would have been around 600 yards.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0&feature=related

Hitting a dinner plate sized steel plate at 860 yards with 5.56x45mm balistics (about a 19 foot drop 300 ftlbs final energy and 1.3 sec flight time)

FYI for those AR owners. Another great (IMO) storage idea is the inserts for the Magpul MAID AR grips. The inserts allow you to carry a spare bolt and firing pin inside the grip. Two very important replacement parts for an AR.

Urban or wilderness survival?

Urban?

AR15, no question.



Wilderness?

.22LR if I am walking a long way.

12 gauge shotgun if I am staying put. 12 gauge ammo is heavy!

12 gauge or a bolt gun in 300 magnum and up if I am in brown bear country.

I'm working on acquiring a 20 gauge NEF single barrel.
I think the youth models with their 22" barrels and short stocks make neat little compact guns that you can afford to use and not regret it. Toss it in the truck, slap a coat of oil on it every couple months, and it will be there when you need it.
They're also pretty light so if you were injured and had to manage with one hand you could probably still use. I actually used to know of an older guy who was a stroke victim who used one for small game hunting. They also come apart with the phillips screwdriver on your multi-tool or you can stick a survivor forend on it if you want a thumbscrew.
I've owned a few 12 gauges before and still do have one (that might get sold before too long), but for my uses anymore I think the 20 gauge is entirely adequate. I live in the NE US and I think a 20 gauge slug will be entirely adequate for any woodland defensive use I can come up with. Regular shotshells are a little lighter than 12 gauge so you can carry a few more for the same weight and bulk but they still have enough effectiveness. The recoil with 12 gauge slugs is also pretty brutal in most single shots. That isn't a huge concern in use but it can be a big deal when you practice. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to be confident that I can place my shots with decent accuracy and that takes a little practice.

Although I love .22 LR's for their cheap practice and general versatility, I have to admit that it has always been easier for me to get some squirrels and rabbits during hunting season with a shotgun than with a .22 rifle (but I can do it with the rifle too). If you take into account that in a real survival situation you may be injured, cold, fatigued, and starving, I think the extra "forgiveness" built into a shotgun beats a .22 by a little.

I also second the Enfield as an awesome rifle. I'd love to get my hands on a No.4 and some 215 grain JSP bullets to handload for it. They're extremely tough rifles that will work under the worst conditions and can be had pretty cheap, especially if you can find a hack-job sporter to make over.
Although .303 ammo is pretty much limited either to fairly expensive new factory ammo or handloads, that isn't a huge disadvantage IMO. First, if you buy the rifle you should get "enough" ammo with it to get you by for awhile. Second, .303 ammo isn't really that much more expensive than 7.62x51/.308 anymore. Last, .303 is about the easiest cartridge to reload I've ever loaded. Use neck sizing dies only and reloading is even easier than loading straight walled handgun rounds.
For a higher powered rifle I don't think the Enfield gives up anything to a FAL or Garand that it doesn't win back somewhere else and it certainly doesn't lose anything (in practical use) to any of the semi-auto assault rifle knockoffs.

Urban... I sticking with my AR. I have loaded min with a bunch of AR 15 Accessories. I think any one on the other side of the barrel would crap them selves.

I do love that I graded my AR-15 Grip with the Hogue Grip with Finger Grooves also

Holy thread resurrection!

no kiddin' Bingley. Hahahaha!

you know, the original poster had it pretty right. that gun with a 22LR barrel and a 20-gage shotgun barrel is a pretty nice choice for outdoors survival. we're just talking putting food on the table here, although the 20-gage is fine as a defensive tool.

just as simple is a 357 revolver. you can fire 38-cal bullets for small game like rabbits. and the 357 rounds will be fine for small deer, or other small-medium game animals. likewise, a lever-action carbine in 38/357 does very well for those purposes. people who do not like much recoil can fire the 38's thru the gun and there is almost no recoil at all.

otherwise ... the sky's the limit of possible choices of guns. for strictly survival hunting I think the 22mag and the 22Hornet cartridges have a lot going for them. there is a reason why aircrews used to be issued fold-up survival rifles in 22Hornet. I think Henry still makes rifles like that, if I'm not mistaken.

Here is the Henry AR-7 survival rifle in 22LR.

http://www.henryrepeating.com/rifle-survival-ar7.cfm

really a very nice piece of work. only 3.5 pounds and the whole thing folds up. it's hard to argue against always having one of these babies with you. this is as simple as it gets ... and nothing beats simple !!

Pete2

Interesting thread, good topic. Survival guns...a complicated issue in a way. If I am in a survival situation my "survival gun" will simply be whatever one I have on me. Generally that's an HK USPf9 or an HK P30S. Sometimes I'm carrying both of them (one on my hip and the other in Hill People Gear Kit Bag). If I'm hunting get lost then I'll be carrying a hunting gun, whatever that is. That last one is theoretical though since I haven't hunted in many years.

Many folks live in places where every firearm I own would be prohibited. In stock form only my .22 pistol would pass muster in CA, and it would be illegal in NY.

The new-ish Ruger 10/22 Takedown model would be a pretty good survival gun. Not ideal for larger game but it would work.

The almost 6 year old thread resurrection is the probable result of a spammer ...don't feed them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy3BsgjqiQg

This is even without the more efficient and accurate MK8 boat tail ammunition..

Point of order, your honor - the AR-7 does not fold up. The barrel and receiver unscrew from the stock and disappear inside. It thus presents a very innocuous appearance and is very lightweight. I have one of the vintage Armalites and it will float when properly encased. It is definitely a nice gadget.

Why not resurrect this thread? It is about guns, after all...Not as critical to most survival situations as some would have you believe, but still fun to discuss.

The Springfield 1873 rifle came with iron sights calibrated for 1100 yards - that's roughly a kilometer. Of course, the trajectory of the 45-70 round at that range resembled that of a mortar, but our great grandfathers could not call in air strikes. I believe troops on the range regularly shot out to 600 yards.

It´s a strange coincident that you mention this figure. At the start of WW II the performance requirements for infantry rifles included incapacitating a cavalry horse at 600 m with one hit. The rifles had the accuracy to actually hit at this distance. I own a Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55. It still outperforms some modern scoped hunting rifles. Groups below 1 MOA are achievable with iron sights and the price for the ammo allows enough practice for good shooting.

hikermor - point well taken your honor.
it would be interesting to know what kind of accuracy the AR-7 gets.
incidentally, just for historical purposes, could anybody back in 1873 actually see anything clearly at 600 yards. HAHAHA!!!

"6.5x55"
outstanding caliber. hang on to that rifle. that Mauser is a real keeper!!!

Pete2

Since the barrel screws onto the receiver, it is not a tack driver, but you can hit small animals at modest ranges. The trigger pull is rather rough, as well.

But the darn thing works. When I was introducing my sons to firearms, I used it as a single shot, rather than loading up the clips. In a survival situation, I would do the same, primarily to save on ammunition.

It is a rather specialized addition to the gun rack, but I find it quite useful. Mine is now officially an antique - I bought it in 1963.

Survival gun?

If I were planning on surviving in the wilderness, hunting for small game as food, it would be a simple break-open single-shot .22LR rifle.

If I were planning on surviving in a close quarters urban area with human adversaries coming after me, it would be an AK47 7.62x39 rifle with a .35+ caliber large capacity semi-auto handgun as backup.

If I were planning on surviving from a defensible position where I could pick off incoming bad guys from a distance, just about any .30 caliber hunting rifle with a scope would do.

I'd like to add my pitch for handgun shooters to give the practical shooting sports like USPSA and 3 gun a try...an excellent way to work on practical skills, and meet a lot of good folks... it's been a 30 year sport for me... Les L747

Spectacles were available then, if your eyesight was aging, and optics were in use. Custer had field glasses at the Little Big Horn. Air quality was probably better in many or most situations, compared to now.

I am not sure about this, but weren't some telescopic sights employed by snipers in the later years of the Civil War?

well hikermor ... now you ARE giving me a history lesson. did they actually have telescopic sights during the Civil War?

Pete2

"The first documented telescopic rifle sight was invented between 1835 and 1840." - from Wikipedia. Their article states that scopes were produced with magnifications ranging from 3X to 20X. I recall seeing a picture of a DY with such a scope, with a startlingly long tube.

The Civil War foreshadowed modern warfare in many respects - trench warfare,machine guns (Gatling), repeating rifles, metallic cartridges, and the aerial dimension (hot air observation balloons), among others.

Well I know Doc Brown had a scoped rifle that could shoot the fleas off a dog's back at 300 yards, in Back To The Future III.

The Civil War rifles that are being refereed to, I think were imported Whitworth Rifle .45 Cal Hexagonal bore muzzle loaders with Parker Hale Davidson Scopes with an effective range of 800-1000 yards.

Amazing how many commanders let their arrogance and ignorance get the better of them.