A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical

Posted by: BigCityHillbilly

A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 01:54 AM

I have this great little bowie knife. It's made out of AUS-8A stainless steel and it stays inside a Kydex sheath. The knife is probably never going to rust out on me unless I drop it into the ocean, and the sheath is virtually indestructable. It even has a pouch on the front containing a diamond wetstone, so that I can keep it sharp no matter where I go. The only problem, as far as I can see, is that the knife is simply too damned SHINY, it shines like a mirror, and that is simply BAD NEWS as far as I'm concerned.

I was thinking about treating the knife with primer and then coating it with some kind of weatherproof paint, but then I quickly gave up on that idea.

Does anyone have an idea on how to turn a shiny knife into a dull knife without ruining the temper of the steel ? LW.
Posted by: nursemike

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 02:01 AM

How about taking the shine off by sanding or sandblasting the surface? Rec Applegate suggested in one WWII era pamphlet that a shiny blade was more terrifying t an opponent than a blued blade, maybe the shine is a virtue. And even stainless steel can rust if you abuse it enough-try coating the blade with mayonnaise and letting it sit foor a day or two-this was the recommended methode for bluing green river knife replicas sold by Connecticut Valley Arms many years ago-
Posted by: BigCityHillbilly

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 02:18 AM

"Rec Applegate suggested in one WWII era pamphlet that a shiny blade was more terrifying t an opponent than a blued blade."

I don't think of a knife as a weapon. The knife, to me, is a tool for chopping wood and for making trap triggers, etc. I would consider using my knife to fabricate a weapon such as a bow and arrow, but when it comes to actually using the knife as a weapon, that's simply a "no-no" as far I'm concerned.

Sand blasting sounds a little bit harsh. I'm wondering if bead blasting would be a better method of eliminating the shine.

Coating the blade with a fast-food condiment sounds like an excellent idea. It's the kind of idea that I might be willing to try, but does it work ? I don't see how it can do any harm ...

I like the idea of trying out a low-cost procedure that won't do any harm but which might possibly do some good. LW.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 02:44 AM

Mayo works because it's acidic...technically any acid could work...ketchup, lemon juice, etc.
Posted by: BobS

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 02:45 AM

I have some scotch bright pads (brown color) made for metal work. They will scratch stainless steel. I have no idea how plastic does this, but it does. It doesn’t seem to have any ground up stones impregnated into it, just plastic. But anyway it will make stainless look all scratched up similar to sandblasting only less harsh on the metal. If you can find some of these pads you could easily & quickly take the shine off it.
Posted by: JohnnyUpton

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/29/08 02:50 AM

Agree with BobS. Scotchbrite will give you a nice satin finish.

If memory serves, brown is pretty coarse, I might try and fine something finer.

YMMV
Posted by: big_al

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 02:52 AM


I take the ones I want to be a flat color to a gun shop and have it parkerized, it will turn out a dark gray to a black color depending on the steel.

Posted by: goon

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 04:09 AM

I can't speak for others but I don't think the shine would bother me in the least. It could possibly even double as a signaling device if it truly is that reflective.
I'm not planning to fight any ninjas or sneak up on a deer armed with only my knife so as long as it doesn't rust, I wouldn't be worried about it.

Then again, I always have been far too clumsy to be tactical.

I have done the condiment treatment with carbon steel but I've never tried it with stainless. With the carbon steel though, I left a mixture of ketchup, mustard, and salt on the blade overnight. It wound up drying and when I cleaned the mixture off in the AM, I found a lot of surface rust. That came off easily enough and underneath was a somewhat case-hardened looking finish. It still had more shine than I liked so I treated it again. Although I never did make anything with that blade, it did wind up having a nice flat patina look.
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 04:32 AM

I never did understand how 'tactical knife' entered the vocabulary of knife sellers. I guess somebody was reading a Soldier of Misfortune magazine and realised paracord handles and the word tactical would sell more knives to graveyard shift security guards beating themselves to death with numchucks. Tell us exactly why you hate shiny blades? If it's just aesthetics I would suggest adding one more item to your kit- sunglasses.
Posted by: Pansy

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 06:39 AM

I agree, if you are never going to use the knife as a weapon what is the point of subduing shine?
Posted by: Bear_Claw_Chris_Lapp

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 10:45 AM

Can anyone actually document an instance where a regular shiny blade "gave away" a tactical persons position in real life?
Posted by: Nishnabotna

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 10:49 AM

Why does my knife need to be tactical?
Posted by: Russ

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/29/08 11:52 AM

AUS 8 won't take the phosphate solution. Scotchbrite sounds like the best option.
Posted by: Glock-A-Roo

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/29/08 12:57 PM

Don't see the problem with a shiny knife unless you are a snooper.

Originally Posted By: Bear_Claw_Chris_Lapp
Can anyone actually document an instance where a regular shiny blade "gave away" a tactical persons position in real life?


Wouldn't such a "give away" event preclude its reporting?
Posted by: Bear_Claw_Chris_Lapp

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/29/08 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
Don't see the problem with a shiny knife unless you are a snooper.

Originally Posted By: Bear_Claw_Chris_Lapp
Can anyone actually document an instance where a regular shiny blade "gave away" a tactical persons position in real life?


Wouldn't such a "give away" event preclude its reporting?


Only if it led to everyone there being killed before it could be reported.

I was curious to see if anyone had any documented instances of it, because from all the reading on military knives out there, you never see any mention of it.

Always sorta seemed like merchandising hype.
Posted by: Taurus

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/29/08 01:48 PM

Oh boy.

I tease my friends all the time with this one. I have been involved in plenty of sketchy operations in my time, some were providing assistance to some very "special" troops and I nor any of them ever felt the need to have a tactical blade. I have friends that will pay top bucks for so called tactical blades that break at the first real world use.

I think the black coatings were originally used as anti-corrosion measures as older knives were prone to rust. The then became a marketing scam to get civilians to buy Army surplus.

When the 25mm Bushmaster runs dry of ammo in combat I will switch to the co-axial or the GPMG.
After my GPMG runs dry I will switch to my rifle. When those 10 mags are gone I will switch to the 870 in the sentry hatch, and then my grenades. Following that it will be my side arm, followed by Para flares, pen flares or anything else that shoots. If still in the fight I will attach my bayonet to my rifle and swing like a madman till it breaks. Then, assuming I cannot find any thing longer than my knife I may consider throwing my helmet, handfull's of rocks, my keys and shining my flashlight at the guy. Then I may use my knife as a weapon......By now I am sure the enemy knows where I am, and a shiny blade is the least of my worries.


But, For those who insist on black blades you may want to consider cold or hot rifle bluing. The latter may require removing the handle and then baking the knife in the oven to make it really stick to the blade. Depending on the type of blade steel, these bluings work really well.

Eventually with any hard use, all finishes wear off and need to be re-applied though.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 02:34 PM

One point which (I think) hasn't been brought up yet about using blacked out tactical knives is that if it's hard to see by your 'enemy', then it's hard to see by you too.

3 of my favorite knives are coated/plated/whatever and are black and/or very dark (not one of the reasons I bought them though they do look cool so that may have influenced my macho-ness subconciously). All of those knives have a bright yellow/reflective wrist cord or handle wrap because no matter how careful you are you're going to drop it or set it down sooner or later and if it's pitch black out, it might not matter how bright your light is. If I had to find my LMF II in the bush after dropping it in fall leaves, I could be looking a LONG time and likely wouldn't find it until I cut myself on it.

That being said I can see it being desirable to be low key even in the civilian world. I carry at least one knife everywhere I go...sometimes it's a sizable one. If I need to pull it out, the fewer people who notice, the better...I don't want people's eyes drawn to why I've whipped it out as I could be doing something as simple as cutting rope but perception is 9/10th of the law and a simple task to me could be psychopathic tendancies to those around me who don't know me. In this day and age of paranoia, that's the only enemy I'm worried about.
Posted by: Nicodemus

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 03:51 PM

If I'm in a situation where I'm in a knife fight, the jig is up already, shiny blade or not.

I use my knife for Bushcraft, otherwise it's in the sheath.

Before I'd even worry about my knife being spotted I would suspect my large frame would give me away to anyone who was looking.
Posted by: NAro

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 04:12 PM

Quote:
Can anyone actually document an instance where a regular shiny blade "gave away" a tactical persons position in real life?


Yep. I was on a mission I can't discuss.... had to get past a sentry... and my Randall Model 15 flashed in the dark giving me away.



[O.K., actually I was trying to sneak it from the knife store and into the house past my wife. BUT I didn't lie about the flash giving me away!!]
Posted by: Taurus

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 05:10 PM

Quote:
[O.K., actually I was trying to sneak it from the knife store and into the house past my wife. BUT I didn't lie about the flash giving me away!!]


So why was the knife outside the sheath as you tried to sneak past her? (lol)
Posted by: Hookpunch

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Hacksaw

That being said I can see it being desirable to be low key even in the civilian world. I carry at least one knife everywhere I go...sometimes it's a sizable one. .


You know I am of the opposite opinion, a bright orange or yellow handled knife kind of says it is a tool not a weapon, so I tend to carry those knives EDC.

Kind of reverse psychology, you look more like a boy scout than a ninja wannabe.
Posted by: sodak

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 05:22 PM

Bluing or parkerizing will be your best bet, stainless doesn't etch too well. As you can tell, a lot of people don't like coated blades. I do. I love having the rust protection. Since it's your knife, good luck, whatever mod you choose, more power to you, post a pic when you are done. And no, you don't have to justify your choice, it's your knife!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Hookpunch
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw

That being said I can see it being desirable to be low key even in the civilian world. I carry at least one knife everywhere I go...sometimes it's a sizable one. .


You know I am of the opposite opinion, a bright orange or yellow handled knife kind of says it is a tool not a weapon, so I tend to carry those knives EDC.

Kind of reverse psychology, you look more like a boy scout than a ninja wannabe.


Good point. Had the my favories come in Orange when I bought them, I'd wouldn't have gone with black...but tacticool sells so not many manufacturers go with orange these days.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 06:17 PM

Quote:
Can anyone actually document an instance where a regular shiny blade "gave away" a tactical persons position in real life?


During the battle for Mt Tumbledown in the Falkland Islands in 1982 the Scots Guards assualted the Elite Argentinian 5th Marine Infantry Battalion forces dug in on the top of the mountain using a 'Silent Assault' during night time with fixed bayonets whilst a diversionary attack was in progress. I'm pretty sure that their bayonets would have been subdued rather than being shiny as a precaution. Seven Guardsmen and one Royal Engineer were killed in that assault.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNsr77oi9C0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE7uDG8tyaI&feature=related
Posted by: BobS

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 08:29 PM

I would rather have a dull surface on my knife. For tactical work I don’t want my steak to see me coming at it with the knife. But then I guess I should take the shine off my fork also…
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/29/08 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: BobS
I would rather have a dull surface on my knife. For tactical work I don’t want my steak to see me coming at it with the knife. But then I guess I should take the shine off my fork also…


Just get a plastic fork. If your fork squeeks on the plate the potatoes might get tipped off and make a break for it!
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/30/08 02:49 AM

Well guys, it's fine to have a good laugh; but there's no reason to beat up on BigCityHillbilly.

(Aside: I tend to agree that "tactical!" too often equates with "bone-head marketing!" But there's nothing wrong with being visually discreet in wild country, or urban country.)

Anyway, FWIW:

I've found that blades that were mirror-shiny in the store quickly lose that lustre after hard use in the field. I don't like scuffing them with abrasives; that just makes them harder to clean, since there is now more surface area for the crud to weld itself on to. Which it surely will.

So, you can take it on a hard-core tour of duty...

... or, frankly, if you want to break in a new blade ... use it hard in the kitchen. You will have to sharpen it frequently, chop through bones and veggies (all acidic), withstand soaking in the sink and blasting in the dishwasher ... all of which is healthy abuse.

Plus: your DW or significant other will realize that you will take the lead on dinner for a week or so, since you are testing out your newest blade. So, every time you bring home a new blade, your pennance will be ... edible!

Okay, maybe this isn't macho enough for the rest of you, but I assure you it's a fine way to accumulate points. Which you will flare off somewhere else, no doubt.

At least your blades won't be shiny any more.

Cheers all,
Doug
Posted by: wildman800

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/30/08 03:56 AM

It all makes sense to me,,,,and I agree with you Doug!!!
Posted by: NAro

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/30/08 11:56 AM

Quote:
So why was the knife outside the sheath as you tried to sneak past her? (lol)


Taurus, you mean you're not supposed to carry tactical knives in your teeth? [all those years of sliced lips....wasted]
Posted by: Bear_Claw_Chris_Lapp

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/30/08 01:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

During the battle for Mt Tumbledown in the Falkland Islands in 1982 the Scots Guards assualted the Elite Argentinian 5th Marine Infantry Battalion forces dug in on the top of the mountain using a 'Silent Assault' during night time with fixed bayonets whilst a diversionary attack was in progress. I'm pretty sure that their bayonets would have been subdued rather than being shiny as a precaution. Seven Guardsmen and one Royal Engineer were killed in that assault.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNsr77oi9C0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE7uDG8tyaI&feature=related


Great videos, but neither one mentions anything about a fixed blade silent assault. What they say, is that during a firefight, some of the Scots Guard "stormed" the Argentine positions.

And that doesn't really address the question of documenting where a shiny blade gave away someone.

Posted by: wildman800

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/30/08 03:32 PM

With an alert sentry on watch, he might just spot a reflection and be able to shout a timely alarm, leaving your own Blokes out in an open field of fire. Yes, 1 + 1 = 2, in most wartime situations. It's before the war and after the war that the math gets screwy.
Posted by: BillLiptak

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/30/08 05:00 PM

Some people like shiny blades, some don't. Even Doug's blades are finished in a "satin finish" which is very similar to a "stonewash finish" by other manufactorers. Its still "shiny", but not like a mirror polished treatment. Personally I LIKE tacti-cool finishes and gizmos. Yup, I might be a mall ninja, but I do have cool toys to play with and I can admit it. Its your knife bro, enjoy it like ya want it and don't worry about the naysayers.

-Bill Liptak
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/30/08 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris Kavanaugh
I never did understand how 'tactical knife' entered the vocabulary of knife sellers. I guess somebody was reading a Soldier of Misfortune magazine and realised paracord handles and the word tactical would sell more knives to graveyard shift security guards beating themselves to death with numchucks. Tell us exactly why you hate shiny blades? If it's just aesthetics I would suggest adding one more item to your kit- sunglasses.


Take an object. Paint it OD green or a camouflage pattern. Call it 'tactical' and Ranger or SEAL or SF or .... well, you get the picture ... put it in the hands of a steroid-pumped gay swimsuit model wearing BDUs and scowling at the camera and you can charge about 50% more for it selling it to mall ninjas and killer-thriller wanna bes.

Take that same object out into a forest with a good foot of soft duff at dusk and drop it. Spend the next four hours on your hands and knees digging through the duff trying to find your widget.

Some things I understand. Young bucks are insecure and feel the need to look more competent and manly by associating themselves with macho male figures. Most overlook the simple fact that the best way to look unmanly and incompetent is to trying too hard to look competent and macho.

Some things I don't. Who in their right mind buys a camouflage wallet. Or camouflage flashlight. I see them for sale but I don't understand. Is the wallet for those who don't want to be seen paying the check? Won't that camouflage pattern on the flashlight sort of be wasted when it is on? And counterproductive when it is off and you need it?

On a practical level there may be some disadvantage to a tool being too shiny. Down here in Florida with the stronger sun shiny tools can be annoying and potentially dangerous as they flash and blind you. Nothing like being twelve stories up on a scaffold and getting dazzled to the point you have to close your eyes.

Usually wear, tear and a bit of dirt is enough to keep the shine down on most things. Lacking that bead blasting would work. Any good gun shop can put a matte finish on it. Parkerizing, browning or any of the newer coatings would do it.
Posted by: Taurus

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 04/30/08 08:34 PM

Quote:
Take an object. Paint it OD green or a camouflage pattern. Call it 'tactical' and Ranger or SEAL or SF or .... well, you get the picture ... put it in the hands of a steroid-pumped gay swimsuit model wearing BDUs and scowling at the camera and you can charge about 50% more for it selling it to mall ninjas and killer-thriller wanna bes.


wa ha ha ha ha!! ROFLMAO!! laugh laugh laugh
Posted by: ozanrd

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/30/08 09:06 PM

I also prefer the non-shiny blades. Satin finish, bead blasted, black coated, etc. are among my favorites. I'm not in the military and I don't plan on going on any recon missions anytime soon.

The reason I prefer the "tactical" blade finishes is due to the fact that they're much less conspicuous (at reasonable sizes). That is very important to me in this day and age when everybody is so paranoid about anything that can be perceived as a weapon. I've found that if you take out a shiny knife (even a small one), it tends to attract more attention from people. With a dull, non-reflective, surface I find that I can generally take out my knife in public and rarely get any stares or comments. It's as if nobody notices. Even if it's legal to carry the knife, being hassled about it by civilians or law enforcement when all you want to do is open a package is frustrating. If I can reduce my chances of attracting attention with my knife, I'm all for that.

I suppose even for such a benign reason as I explained, you can still consider it tactical. My tactic is trying to stay inconspicuous smile.
Posted by: JRJ

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 04/30/08 11:03 PM

Originally Posted By: ozanrd
My tactic is trying to stay inconspicuous smile.


Your strategy is trying to stay inconspicuous.

Tactics and strategy are not the same.

A shiny knife is as eligible as a crow bar at being used tactically.



-JRJ
Posted by: Stu

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tactical - 05/01/08 01:27 AM

A bare steel shiny blade should cut easier.
Posted by: BobS

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 05/01/08 02:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Taurus
Quote:
Take an object. Paint it OD green or a camouflage pattern. Call it 'tactical' and Ranger or SEAL or SF or .... well, you get the picture ... put it in the hands of a steroid-pumped gay swimsuit model wearing BDUs and scowling at the camera and you can charge about 50% more for it selling it to mall ninjas and killer-thriller wanna bes.


wa ha ha ha ha!! ROFLMAO!! laugh laugh laugh



mall ninjas and killer-thriller wanna bes


What wrong with making a product to fill the customer’s needs? As long as you do it ethically I see nothing wrong with it. If you are a knife maker, theses people’s money feels just as good in your pocket as any other knife enthusiast money does.



Posted by: ironraven

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 05/01/08 02:21 AM

I have one use for coated blades- corrosion resistance.

Anything else... Yeah, if my brain is in "tactical" mode, odds are I'm past carring. And if they are enough of a fashionista they worry about it, they aren't likely to be why I'm in the frame of mind. If I have to get close, that is what sheaths are for. :P
Posted by: ironraven

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 05/01/08 02:29 AM

Concur. Tumbledown was an example of closing to bayonet range when the other guy still had bullets. Stupidity at it's finest, not shiny blades, combined with bad luck got those men killed.
Posted by: Taurus

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 05/01/08 04:25 AM

Quote:
What wrong with making a product to fill the customer’s needs?


Absolutely nothing, but....

What's wrong with laughing at a comment you find hilariously funny?

Posted by: ozanrd

Re: A shiny knife, no matter how good, is un-tacti - 05/02/08 01:59 PM

Another reason I'm not into shiny blades (mostly the ones with a mirror finish) is that I'd be afraid to use it. Such surfaces are beautiful and almost artistic. With the shiny knives I've owned, I would cringe every time I seen a scratch on the blade. Each time I used it, my eyes would go straight to that mark. I wouldn't use the knife to its full potential simply because I was avoiding putting a blemish on it. Also, any time I used my mirror finished knife, I could be seen obsessively polishing it back to its original luster.

With non-reflective finishes or coatings, I seem to be less concerned about blemishes on the blade. They just kind of add to its charm, kind of like a well used Jeep. Even if it's a coated blade, I'm not concerned about losing that coating over time. That's not to say that I don't take good care of my knives either. I still keep them clean, sharp, and oiled.