Chris Reeve Disappointment

On "knifetests.com" there's a new review: Chris Reeve Green Beret 7 inch. The tests are really hard and sometimes over the top. However Mr. Noss4 abuses all the knives the same way .
Some very cheap knives like the Cold Steel GI Tanto hold out amazingly well. You should also have a look at the Fallkniven test! The Chris Reeve Green Beret however just disintegrates! Remember this is a 300 dollar knife! What also concerns me is the fact that the Doug Ritter fixed blade is made from the same material:
CPM S30V. Maybe the heat treatment was not ok for this knife?
If all (Chris Reeve) CPM S30V knives have the same properties they may not be suited for hard survival use.

I read that was was disappointed myself! looks like I will just have to get myself the Randall 25 after all!
The review on the small Sebenza was good though.
Will be getting the lady a Fallkniven, It did seem to hold up remarkably well!

S30V is known to be a very hard, abrasion resistant steel...and many times hardness equates to being brittle as well.

I have no doubts that my Gerber Freeman Hunter in S30V would break more easily than many of my other knives if stressed enough...but unlike the masked madman at knifetests.com I won't be putting mine in a vice and hammering on it with a sledge. That said, it holds an edge better than anything I've ever owned and never ceases to amaze me with slicing prowess.

On a side note...my Gerber LMF II survived the sledge treatment as per the knifetests.com testing criteria...as well as many other treatments mine will never see unless I'm burried under a ton of cinder blocks and car doors and have to dig my way out.

PS: I should mention that hard doesn't always mean brittle...how the metal is treated makes all the difference.

As you can see in the test the steel is very, very sharp. No doubt about it! In a hunter or bushcraft application there is less of a problem. Through its size and design the Chris Reeve looks and feels even breeths hard and military style use. This is not an environment of wood and flesh and hide but of armor, steel, rocks, heavy blows... The type of survival situation you will encounter is almost always unknown. Maybe it's better to have a fairly sharp but very tough knive than a "razor" that can break. When you pay as much you really should be able to trust your life on it. It certainly is possible: the tests of Busse, Cold Steel, Fallkniven, Scrap Yard etc. prove it.

I just read his test on the Fusion Battle Mistress...simply amazing even if I don't really agree with 'unscientific' methods.

I have to admit it's nice to know my LMF II won't shatter like the Reeve knife did when pushed into the realm of the unexpected. I rarely use it as it's big, heavy, and beefy but because of those traits I know it will be around to be used long after other knives have failed me.

Also interesting to note that the Battle Mistress out chopped the Granfors Bruks axe by a healthy margin...interesting but completely off topic.

I wouldn't call the methods scientific, but the methods certainly test a knife.

Now you know what Jason did after the Friday the Thirteenth series. (Only kidding)

Now you know why I own Busse knives.

You can cut down a tree with a rock or even a broken piece of glass if that's what floats yer boat. If it breaks, you toss it aside and pick up another one and continue.

As for me, I'd just as soon spend the money and not have to bother picking up and chipping rocks and glass shards (or over-rated broken knife blades) into servicable tools, unless I really have to. It's nice to know how, just like it's nice to know how to rub two sticks together to make smoke. I'd rather just use my lighter, though.

If you can take advantage of the technology, then I think you should, always keeping the basics in mind. Like Grandma said, you can cook food just as good using a wood stove as any gas or electric range out there these days, if you know what you are doing and put in the extra effort to do your part, but why would you if you didn't have to?

This is not to say I will just throw money at a problem and hope it goes away. But if I am going to spend $300+ on a knife, I am going to make damn sure that knife will do what is expected, and a fair amount of what might not be to boot.

I feel wholly confident making this statement: You can spend whatever you can afford on another brand if you want, but you will not find a better knife on the market than a Busse. Different maybe, but nothing better. Tests such as these, subjective though they may be, corroborate that claim alongside empirical data. That only leaves the questions of style, cost, and function as to preference. I believe there are enough Busse models out there to reduce two of the three subjective criteria, so then you're left answering the question "can I afford to do without what I know will be the best chance for my survival success?, all other factors being equal, and spend my money elsewhere?" If so, buy something of lesser quality and practice using rocks a lot more to cut trees down with.

The design, presentation and name of a product creates a certain image. I do now when I buy a cheap chinese hollow handle survival knife I should not expect extreme ruggedness. When I buy a "battle misstress" I sure would like to see the product assist me in battle, literally or in a survaval situation. When a well known manufacturer discribes the knife as "used by green berets" it better be utterly dependable.

Makes me glad I picked up my battle mistress from a friend for 100 bucks.... Couldn't beat that price with a stick, or the knife

-Bill Liptak

Oh man I'm jealous. If I were to be in the market for a big do-everything knife I think I'd back burner my desire for a Tom Brown Tracker and get a Fusion.

Though when I think that both my axes, my machete, my main folder, my main fixed blade, my folding saw, and my multipliers all together cost less than a new Fusion Battle Mistress...and all are quality tools in their own right...I don't feel so bad about not buying one.

But there we go again with the multi-task argument...it's way easier to carry one huge, very high quality knife and maybe a couple little extras for redundancy sake than all the hardware I have in my possesion...this topic is following me everywhere today!

Chris Reeve's heat treatment for fixed blades tends to be on the soft side. Logically this would make for a tougher knife, but apparently that doesn't work with S30V. A lot of what I've read about his GB knife says the same thing, that in one way or another the heat treatment is incorrect. I have no experience with it, so I can't offer my opinion. However, I have had experience with his Sebenza's and they are correctly heat treated. (Apparently they are heat treated differently from the GB, as Chris Reeve lists the Rockwell hardness as being harder, at 58-59RC)

I noticed they also tested a Strider BT, which is also S30V like the GB, but with what is supposed to be a more appropriate heat treatment (as evidence by the higher Rockwell hardness ~60RC vs ~56 for the GB). The video on that site confirms this, as they beat the tar out of that thing and it took the abuse for quite a long time. It is slightly thicker (by less than 1mm) which might have had some effect, but not to the extent that is shown. In my opinion S30V isn't to blame, it just needs to be heat treated correctly (which seems to be more difficult to do with S30V than many other steels)

I don't know how Doug's Mk3 would react to the same destructive testing, but it is a smaller and thinner knife than both the GB and the Strider, so that has to be taken into account.

Cliif Stamp's knife resource/review page is perhaps a better source of reviews. He abuses knifes badly at times too, but in ways that might be useful in emergency situations where the knife is expendable.

Nobody would ever want to section a steel-belted radial tire with a pocket folder made of H-1 steel, but it's nice to know that it will work if you need a fire badly and that's what you have to work with. Most of Cliff's tests are strictly real-world, answering questions of suitability for preparing food, clearing vegetation, cutting rope, etc, by actually performing those tasks.

Somewhere in a Himalayan glacier lies a knife lost over half a century ago. It's owner was Slavomir Rawicz, a polish cavalry officer arrested in 1939 by the Soviets and imprisoned in a Yakutsk Gulag. The dropping of that criticaly important knife was one of the most wrenching moments in this narrative. Slavomir, with 5 comrades escaped with ony this knife and a unhafted axehead. The survivors completed a 4000 mile trek by foot to British India and freedom. Anyone familiar with the quality of the few russian made knives being exported? Anyone ever try to put an edge on the Kalashnikov bayonet? If there is any selling 'hype' in the cutlery business, then it's evil , malformed brother chained in the attic is deservedly these idiots.You want knife performance? Buy a Old Hickory cosmetic second from Ragweedforge and use it exclusively on your next foray into the real world.

"...ever try to put an edge on the Kalashnikov bayonet?..."

Or any bayonet for that matter. All that I have handled are sooo hard you can not touch the edge...

Benjammin,

I looked at their website and they appear to only have one model. I like the model, but would like to see some others.

Bill

That's the other edge of the blade with Busse, I'm afraid. They release production runs few and far between, leaving the market in a high demand mode constantly: good for them, bad for those of us who want Busse knives.

Here's a site that shows quite a few different models of Busse knives.

Bad Mojo Busse Knife List

Sadly, you will have to go to the secondary market if you want to buy any previous production models, all at a premium, unless you get damned lucky. We're talking Ebay, Bladeforums, etc.

Do some research, see what all the "experts" have to say about it, then maybe take a chance if you find a wad of cash is burning a hole in your pocket.

I didn't say it was going to be easy, I did my time and paid the price, and will likely get more, but that's just me. When I find something that I know works, I don't mind the effort so much.

Yes, yes, a good bayonet or a well groomed piece of obsidian are most effective and durable, quite capable of getting the job done if you do your part. There's no arguing that point, and I am all too happy to concede that the old hickory was a fair standard for mountain men plying their trade in the Rockies and beyond 200 years ago.

I would tend to think that most made do with what was available at the time because that's all there was for the most part. I can't imagine a one of them old timers that wouldn't be up for a trade to a Busse blade once having seen a good side by side comparison for durability and abuse. Is it a big enough difference that would forever foresake their old carbon steel patina covered butcher blades? Maybe not, which is why I have a few of them same type knives in my drawer as well.

Let me put it another way, you can certainly make do with a nice sidelock 50 cal muzzleloader shooting 380 grain maxie ball with 90 grains of ff blackpowder, if you are willing to always get within 75-150 yards of your target and practice your marksmanship enough to know what you and the firearm are capable of; there are a lot of folks that still do that, but from a survival perspective, why would you settle for such a thing when a decent bolt action 30-06, which may cost 3 or 4 times more, will be much more useful, practical, and versatile? Likewise, I can build a house using a rock tied to a stick to pound nails with, but I'd prefer to spend some money for a good hammer instead, or maybe even splurge and rent an air gun. You can certainly make do with less, and there's no doubt that a rock can be used to pound nails into wood non-stop, but there's a reason why most folks don't use rocks anymore, despite the fact that they are relatively inexpensive and fairly easy to find. Of course, knowing how to pound nails using a rock might be considered an invaluable thing, should you ever find yourself in need of building a house but without a hammer. There's a big difference between the two schools of thought I reckon.

In the ETS gendre, I think there's motivation to find what works, learn how, then look for something better. Frugality counts for something, but only insofar as you get your money's worth the way I see it. I hunted with an old bolt action in 308 with a 4x Tasco scope for a long time, then I got my hands on a Browning stainless A-Bolt in 7mm mag with a Leupold Vari-X II in 3-9x and decided it was time to spend $1,000. Has it improved my ability to put game on the table, well maybe. More to the point, I feel a lot more comfortable and confident in what I can do with the new rifle than I am able to with the 308, should the need arise. That was worth the $600+ upgrade for me. I lost the old 308 in a fire, but I would still have it in my arsenal anyways if it hadn't burned up.

Benjammin, that is the point I wanted to make. An expert, and I want to make it clear, I'm no survival expert; but, a true expert can for exemple use obsidian, can use a discarted piece of steel etc. successfully if he needs to. But most experts also keep themselves well informed to able to distinguish good from not so good equipment. That is what this site is about.

FYI for anybody looking for one. There's an ERGO Battle Mistress (2001) on eBay right now. Current bid is just over $300. As well as some smaller Busse knives.

Bingo. We should all work on improving our proficiencies, whilst also looking for demonstrable upgrades. I think it is mutually beneficial. As our proficiency with the basics improves, so to our ability to recognize enhancements, which in turn allow us to build on our proficiencies, also making us better at the basics by helping us think outside the box more.

Should anyone have trouble still justifying the need to drop $300+ for a knife, I would still endorse spending whatever you can afford to get the best knife you can and learn to use it and maintain it within it's limitations. Even a good stone knife can last more than a lifetime if used properly and maintained well.

Just one more thing. The "abuse" on knifetests.com may seem madness to everyone who likes beautiful knives. Who would want to smash concrete tiles with an expensive Ontario, Coldsteel, Strider... But look at it this way: why do they smash new, perfectely good cars? Of course to discover their weak points. To see if the driver would survive! I for sure always try to drive careful and maintain and lubricate what need to be maintained and lubricated. But what car would you feel safest to drive? That's the car that passed the tests.

I don't completely dispute his methods. I just wish they were a bit more scientific so one test could be compared to the next...he's getting better in that he's at least standardised his methods (sorta).

One of the first articles about the LMFII (I use this as an example because it's the only knife I own which he's destroyed testing) was written by a US military sniper who used his to drill a hole in cinder block wall so he could return fire without exposing himself. Reading about this sort of real world use eventually led me to that site.

On a sort of related note I just picked up the most recent copy of Field & Stream because they had a winter survival article in it and in the back they tested some knives. Some of the tests were along the lines of knifetest.com. The LMFII was the only knife to fully survive being pounded into a stump like a nail with a sledge hammer.

Thanks

S30V is designed for knives. Not short swords. As a practical matter I would expect the handle and lock on a RSK Mk1 to fail before the blade does. Not that I have had a Benchmade fail on me yet.

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_materials.html

It's interesting to read about the S30V. Lots of problems with heat treatment, lots of mixed feelings on how effective it is and I especially like the comment about the green beret having edge retention comparable to a Buck 119...a knife I bought at Walmart last year for under $20. It seems that there are many reports of 'gross fractures'...that's what I'd call what happened in the video regardless of the 3 lb. hammer.

I see no point to the www.knifetest.com testing to chop through a cinder block or to chop through 2-inches of 1/8 or ¼ inch thick steel. Just to see a knife fail.

It has nothing to do with the reality of what a person will ever do with a knife. If you want to chop cinder blocks, get a hammer & chisel. If you want to cut ¼ inch steel, get a hacksaw.

There are situations where a knife must be abused. One that comes to mind is pounding it in into a wall to use it as a step. Which, there are documented cases of people in the armed forces doing just that. Therefore, testing a knife to it's breaking point does help people, that may find themselves in those situations, pick the best blade they can.

Sure, 99.99% of people may not need the ability to break concrete with their knife. But, it's that .01% that when they need to hammer into concrete, chances are they REALLY need to hammer into concrete.

Now, on one hand I'm not a big fan of their methods. It's somewhat haphazard and could be a lot more scientific. But, on the other hand I do agree that the only way to see what a tool can do is to use it and test it. It's just like subjecting a car to a crash test, but for knives. You want to know how much of a chance it might have in the worst of situations.

Actually Mors Kochanski does employ his own strength test not dissimilar to using one as a wall step. Mors drives a knife into a tree and stands on it. Mors uses Moras.

Gives me an interesting idea. You know how every Schatt and Morgan knife is "File and wire tested", Frosts of Sweden should say their blades are "Mors Kochanski tested". Instead of the measure of cut wire thickness printed on the blade, Mors Kochanski's weight is laser etched on every Mora.

http://outdoors-magazine.com/spip.php?article341

It's about a Mors 'inspired' knife made in Montana (nice knife actually) but quotes the section of Mors' book on knife selection.



Now that I read this (I lost my copy of Northern Bushcraft ages ago) I'm tempted to try it with some of my questionable knives just to see.

The book also mentions a full tang with a pommel which is strong enough to allow the knife to be driven into wood tip first.