What clothing for the desert Southwest

I need desert clothing. I live in Phoenix, Aridzona. The clothing will be for summer day hikes where it's hot (105+) and dry in the summer, but can cool off dramatically at night. During monsoon, sudden and dramatic thunderstorms are the norm.

I will also use this clothing for marksmanship events. Lots of standing, sitting, and laying in the desert sun.

I've read that cotton kills. But if cotton kills, what keeps me alive? I can't imagine wearing polyester under this sun.

I know I want long sleeve shirts and full length pants.

At 5' 5", buying clothing can be a crap-shoot, size-wise, so I'd like to buy from places in town if possible (We've got REI, Sportsman's Warehouse, Cabella's, Big 5). However, I will gladly look at online sources.

For other reasons, I need clothing that, as much as possible, does not look explicitly military or hunting oriented. Not because military or hunting is bad, but because I want to project an everyday image when I am in town on the way to or from the desert. That means I have a strong preference against camo for this application. I plain, neutral, light colors if at all possible.

I would love a few extra pockets, but I don't want a safari-vest full of pockets. Same reason as above.

Do these requirements suggest anything to you guys? What types of fabrics, what brands, what places to shop come up in your minds?

Check out Underarmor for good synthetic undergarments. I like Columbia Sportswear or similar cargo style pants and long sleeve shirts in synthetic as well for their breatability and protection. Look for pants with zip off legs and shirts with lots of venting. Also get a decent hat that will shield your face and neck. I have a good wardrobe of these type of clothes and wear them as business casual at work and around town. They worked much better than cotton clothing while I was in Baghdad, and were a lot more comfortable. The colors and styles are practical and don't have that "tactical" look you are trying to avoid.

The good news is all of the stores you mention carry these type of clothes. The bad news is they are going to be a little more expensive than their cotton equivalents, or regular dress shirts and slacks would be. If you opt for more conventional clothing, I would still recommend synthetics in a hot environment, but look for lighter weight fabrics.

Check out outlet stores if you can find them, you might find some really good deals.

i was in the same situation. hot - 90s - 100s - and dry day hikes w/not much cover. during my research i found these and liked them enough to buy them. on sale on line - you just gotta watch the sales.

patagonia gII pants - shorts and zip offs - for several years now. are lightweight, cool, dry fast when wet, no signs of wear yet. pricey but have worn exceptionally well.

zip offs: zip offs shorts: shorts

for shirts: railriders, long sleeves: eco mesh they have no buttons and dry fast. or explorer (santa brought this one): explorer

when i wear out the railriders - maybe in the next century - i will buy one of these: sunday afternoons

they also have geeky looking hats that have a 4" brim and will replace my columbia w/flap when it goes.

good luck!

Why not wear cotton? Synthetics (plastics) are bad for the environment and I try to switch to natural fabrics as much as I can. Maybe silk underwear to wick moisture away, and a silk neckerchief ( http://www.jinglebobs.com ). How about some linen garments and bamboo fabric?

Cotton wide brim hat, boonies or I don't know, Tilley if you are over 50 years old and you're willing to spend the money.

Sunglasses. Maybe the bayonnet temples if you plan on wearing helmets. Like the AO Original Pilots.

Poplin and broadcloth long sleeve shirts, like in bright blue, white and ecru, tan, khaki and even pink. Their plain tight weave cut the wind slightly more effectively than Oxford and pinpoint cloth although they breathe slightly less, but they work better as temporary floating devices and are versatile when you are layering since they are so thin. Some more casual shirts come with roll-up sleeves and tabs as a fashion statement but kind of functional too...

Tropical weight wool gabardines, super 100's and the like...

Stick with wool socks regardless of the weather.

I guess good high boots are important to protect against rattlesnake bites (make sure that fangs can't penetrate, i.e. snake proof boots) and scorpions (I don't live there, I'm just guessing) but anyway, never walk with open toed shoes for sure...

Frankie

"Cotton kills" is one of those rules of thumb that will usually keep you alive, but doesn't tell the whole story. Cotton kills when you are wet and cold. It completely loses any insulation value and as water or sweat evaporates it carries away your body heat. Between about 30 and 55 degrees Fahrenheit its enough to turn cool weather into fatal weather. In hot climates, its perfect. Long, loose sleeved cotton shirts and pants will keep the sun off of your skin and slow the evaporation of sweat. This will keep you from burning (although you can still burn through clothing) and keep you cooler while also keeping you from dehydrating as quickly. People will think you're crazy for wearing long sleeves and trousers in the desert sun, but you'll actually be much more comfortable. The US Army's DCUs and BDUs operate on this principle. You loosen the cuffs and wear thinner fabric in the summer versus the winter, but you still wear long sleeves. Cotton or a 50/50 cotton/polyester blend will work fine. For pants, BDU pants in solid grey or tan/khaki will probably fit the bill for you. I can't think of a specific shirt off the top of my head though.

When it cools off at night, just add some light layers. A thin layer of silk or polypro long underwear shirt will warm you significantly when its not too windy, but they'll take up almost no room. If you need more carry a wool or acrylic sweater or a light fleece jacket. Silk, wool and synthetic fleece, acrylic or polypro will all keep a reasonable amount of insulation value even when wet.

For rain any good, unlined rain suit will be perfect. Something you can put on quickly while still wearing your boots.

Hope this helps some.

Hi WayneConrad,

Shirt - http://www.orvis.com/store/product_choic...;subcat_id=6224

or http://www.west-winds.net/ventile_shirts.htm both are cool in the heat and warm at night time.

Undervest - http://www.springfields.co.uk/clothing/underwear-socks/?id=796 or similar. The secret weapon to keeping cool

Trouser - http://www.genuinearmysurplus.co.uk/pages/products/makes/detail/rowid=547 - zip off trousers are OK but can be uncomfortable shooting in the prone position. Genuine US BDU trousers in OG or Tan are OK and easier to get but may not be as cool in warm weather.

Hat - http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/...4b211078b8929c7 - keeps the sun off the neck.

For night time cold conditions a heavy merino wool sweater such as this at http://www.davidgoldie.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_copy_of_Orkney_Sweater.html will keep you warm.

For cold wet conditions then Goretex shell over trouser and jacket may be worthwhile. Goretex Paclite and XCR jackets and trousers are generally available but sometimes difficult to get in subdued colours. Fjallraven and Norrona Jackets might be difficult to get in the US.

I like AROTC comments. I've worn cotton some when it was cold and not had problems, if I had a layer of polypro beneath it, keeping the wet off my skin. Anytime I've done this it was only when I knew I could quickly retreate indoors.

For the last 6 years or so I've pretty much lived in two types of long sleeve shirts. The Mt. Hardwear Canyon shirt and REI Sahara shirt. Columbia, Patagonia, etc, make similar ones. They work well in every climate, shield from sun/bugs, dry quick, etc. Its arguably my most used piece of gear. IMO, absolute must have utility shirt.

I agree completely with AROTC and I have lived in the desert SW since 1958.
Try a Cabela's soft canvas trail shirt. Well made, pure cotton and good size pockets.
Pants, use some old Dockers or any number of lightweight, loose fitting cotton pants. Jeans are brutal in the summer for any strenuous actvity! Hope that helps.

You live in Arizona (that is in the southwest) and you need to ask what kinds of clothes to use in the southwest? I would think living at a given location you would know what to use in your own backyard.

BobS, that's a reasonable assumption, but an incorrect one. Here in the city, which is my natural environment, it's all air-conditioning, whether in a building or in a car. In the desert, which is not my natural environment, it's not. Not only am I not an outdoor type by nature, I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and moved here late in life. This is all new to me.

Thanks to everyone for the great replies so far. And even a reply that was specific to the shooting sports. The amount of knowledge around here is phenomenal. I've got lots of reading to do.

Underwear? I had no idea underwear came into play.

OK, I understand. I'm an outdoor person and always doing things outside all year long.

Actually silk underwear holds moisture (I've never worn silk underwear but I know they are better for warmer climate). Wear loose boxers to keep your balls cooler.

Also wear longer sleeves on shirts to cover the back of your hands from sun and carry a wool watchcap because it packs small and when the weather drops dramatically it's very efficient in conserving body heat.

Frankie

As others have said, cotton kills in the cold, but it saves in the hot. So wear cotton undies (or no undies, going commando ain't all that bad in the heat), and I like BDU's. Tan will work, I don't like cammo either. Big pockets, tough, not all that expensive. A tan M-65 field jacket, with liner if you want, and a watch cap will help with the cold. During the day a wide brimmed hat, boonie or Tilley, and you are all set...

I refer everyone to the famous photo of american freedom fighter Goyathlay kneeling on one leg, holding a Springfield carbine and wearing cotton.

ExOfficio has a 25% off sale all this month (plus free shipping) on Give-N-Go briefs and boxers. While I realize the idea of spending $18.00 ($13.50 on sale this month) for a pair of underwear is not something that men generally do except for the wife or girlfriend at Christmas, I decided to try a pair of these last year.

Not only are they worth every penny, but I have since bought another dozen pair and actually wear these everyday. Of all the camping/backpacking/survival gear I have ever purchased, I would rate these toward the very top of the list for the best value for the dollar. I have told a few people about these and without exception, those who have tried them end up switching to these exclusively.

As far as shirts go, the ExOfficio Air Strip Lite is a great outdoor shirt. Like their underwear, these shirts aren't cheap ($80-$85 depending upon the size) but be careful if you are buying online, as the three colors I have look absolutely nothing like the color swatches shown on their website.

These shirts are long sleeves with roll-up tabs, a 3-position sun collar, UPF of 30+, loads of venting, and reasonably sized pockets. I generally layer one of these with an Under Armour Heatgear wicking T-shirt in the summer (or a Coldgear Blitz mock turtleneck and North Face Paramount zippered fleece jacket in the winter) topped off with a TNF Anorak waterproof shell.

If you happen to have a Boy Scout outfitter nearby, BSA just recently came out with what they are calling an "activity" shirt that is made by a company called VF Solutions. Except for the lack of the 3-position sun collar, it is virtually identical to the Air Strip Lite, but sells for only $32. There is a small tone-on-tone BSA logo on the chest, but it certainly doesn't look like a uniform shirt, and for $50 less it's hard to beat.

For pants I really like The North Face Paramount convertible pants, as I've never had a pair of hiking pants that fit me nearly as good, although the length of the shorts is probably an inch or two shorter than I'd go with if I were buying dedicated shorts. Then again, if you're zipping off the legs you're probably more interested in cooling off than making a styling statement. TNF offers these in short, regular, and long (30", 32", and 34") inseams so it's pretty easy to find a pair that fits well.

Jim

I disagree with AROTC and I have lived in the desert since 1956. Or more accurately, I partially disagree. Most of the time you can get by OK with cotton since it is usually warm. What surprises many people is that it can be surprisingly cold, as well. Over the years, I have added more and more synthetics to my wardrobe. For really hot conditions, I like Cool-Max or similar garments. They have served me well in temperatures of 100 degrees plus. A lot of items are available in loose fitting styles that are light, tough, and non-military. A wide brimmed hat (with a dark underbrim), sunglasses, and a bandanna can shield you effectively from the sun. Cotton works fine in these applications - no need to waste money on a Tilley hat. Zip off pants work great, although I think they look incredibly dorky when worn as long pants, much better as shorts. Their practicality outweighs the dork factor for me quite often.

One thing about Arizona - the terrain is such that you can be on the desert in one location and ten miles away you will encounter much colder and higher conditions. This is especially true of the more interesting portions of Arizona, which is anyplace more than fifty miles from Phoenix. If you are moving around at all, you need clothing which can work effectively in layering combinations, and synthetics really shine here. Cotton is becoming obsolete, IMHO.

Nor is cotton environmentally benign. Patagonia studied the environmental effects of cotton versus synthetics some years ago, and concluded that the effects were about the same. The problem with cotton is the large quantities of pesticides needed to grow the product. This is why their products are now organic cotton. Of course, it is just as expensive as the synthetics and I doubt that their organic cotton garments last as long as synthetics.

Just to add to the list of companies you might wish to shop, check out Duluth Trading Company. They have some items which will work very well in hot climates.

I don't have desert experiance but I do go out on boats in the blazing sun and hike in the hot sun. I like a loose fitting long sleeved cotton or cotton/poly blend shirt. I have also worn loose drawstring hosptial scrubs. These keep both the sun and bugs off of me.

I didn't have to worry about it getting cold at night though. If you are hiking you should be able to carry other things in it for night or when the temps go down. I don't know how this would work, maybe someone else could chime in but a marmot driclime windshirt is very light and comfortable to sleep in when it's cold. I have worn one at night to extend the temp range of my sleeping bag.

Damp cotton would be cold and uncomfy to sleep in but isn't it very dry in the desert? When my husband was in the marine corp he loved going to yuma, he said you could run and you didn't really feel hot and didn't sweat. Well you did but it dried real quick.

I got a couple of those nylon fishing shirts thinking that all the vents would be cool and it would be even better than my cotton shirt. I am so glad I brought something else to wear because when the sun beat down on that nylon it was hot and stifling. I put my cotton shirt on and all was well. The nylon ones are also cold when it's cold. My fishing friends seem to like them though. They are just dressy shirts for me now.

I have some duofold tshirts of various styles and they are ok. They are polyester. Polyester is funny stuff, it takes on differant properties depending on the knit. It seems to take on a stench pretty quick though. I think they are making odor resistant ones now, maybe I should look into that.





Funny thing about the nylon. The shirts are not comfortable but my nylon shorts are just fine. At least the brands that I have. I don't have an explanation for that phenomana except that perhaps chafing. Cotton shorts chaff if you are walking in them when sweaty.

The hospital scrubs are best in some situations. You have to get the cheap thin ones though, at least that's what I prefer. The drawstring is comfortable under a pack belt and like I said, keeps the sun and bugs off.

Don't forget the sunscreen, and drink lots of liquids.

Sue

Okay, here's why I recommend light synthetics over cotton:

In Baghdad wearing 40 lbs of black body armor over my clothes, cotton didn't keep me anywhere near as comfortable as the synthetic materials. The majority of the expats I worked with there switched to synthetic clothing for much the same reason.

Cotton is hydrophillic, meaning it has an affinity for or attraction to water, meaning it gets wet and stays wet. If it is 90 degrees out and you are standing in a good breeze, cotton will help keep you cooler. If it is 120 degrees and you are sitting in a bunker without air conditioning or a breeze, the cotton will eventually feel like wet sandpaper against your skin. If you can't freely move around to distribute the moisture or get enough surface exposure to promote suitable evaporation, the wet cotton will act as an irritant, and you will get a rash.

Synthetics are hydrophobic, meaning the fabric does not like to be wet. When it does get wet, it tends to hold the moisture at the surface of the fibers, rather than draw it in like a sponge. In clothing, this effect is known better as wicking. Synthetics tend to wick moisture away from the body. It will help keep you cooler on a hot day in a breeze, and it will help keep your skin drier when you are stuck in less than ideal evaporative conditions by drawing moisture away from the surface of your skin more. The difference is that one person wearing synthetic clothing will appear under extreme conditions to have sprung a leak as the excess perspiration sloughs off his clothing and falls to the ground, while the guy next to him wearing cotton will look like he's just come out of a sauna and his clothes are soaked from top to bottom.

One big drawback to synthetics is their vulnerability to ignition sources. One little stray spark will make a hole in your synthetic shirt, where it may not even leave a mark on a cotton one.

I used to think cotton was the best hot weather clothing till I went to Baghdad. Now I seldom wear cotton in hot weather, and when I do, I often regret it. Even silk would be more preferable.

my day hikes range from 10 - 25 miles round trip. summer temps are 85 - 105, mostly w/o cover. i carry a 15 - 18 lb pack. mostly water. i do not perspire, i sweat.

when i would stop for lunch i got tired of feeling like i was a soaking wet dishrag while wearing cotton. sure, it dried, but i had to take it off to get it to do so.

the synthetics i use dry quickly while wearing them, do not rub me the wrong way, protect me against nature - bugs, thorns, abrasions - and have lasted a lot longer than the cotton i started out with. and mine don't get an odor.

i'm sure there's a great place for cotton - but for me, in my circumstances - been there, done that, no bueno.

just my $.02.

There you go. Take a close look at this proud man named Geronimo by the Mexicans. He's a good illustration and inspiration for desert clothing:



He's got a large neckerchief (thousands of uses). His garment at the groin can't be looser since he's wearing a handspun cotton loincloth or kilt. But he's also wearing leggings (thermal underwear).

Notice also his long thick Apache moccasins that help protect against rattlesnake bites and cactus thorns and is properly closed at the top as if he's wearing puttees to prevent sand from entering.

For those cold nights he would propably don an old fashion "poncho" over everything, the kind wore by Clint Eastwood in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

Frankie

Ol' Geronimo made alot of money off this wonderfully commercial photo (he understood and embraced capitalism). I bet he never guessed it would have been used as an example for proper desert clothing.

Good point about the loincloth/kilt. It reminds me of the other discussion about the kilt that someone just purhcased. It may not be a bad idea to go the kilt route for desert conditions.

cochise was a better dresser: cochise




yeah, but what about hitchhiking ticks?

Okay, 100 years ago you either wore cotton, wool, leather or silk. Since only the very wealthy living in big cities could afford or even find silk clothing, guess what everyone had to wear to stay cool back then?

If cotton is all you got, then you make the best of it. Personally I think hemp makes a better fabric, but the process is a little more involved, and right now it is a bit too difficult getting permission to grow any here.

If it's for the summer, I vote for cotton, too. I wear cargo pants and t-shirts a lot, and I have cargo shirts, too - either should fill your need for extra pockets. I suggest a hat, as well; not a cap.

I worked summers in Texas at a place that made railroad cross-ties, and long pants, long sleeves, and hats worked very well. I preferred chambray shirts, as they were light and breathable, but soaked up the sweat for easy evaporation.

I wear cargo pants from Royal Robbins (now 511, I think) and BDU pants in khaki or navy. I know you don't want military gear, but nobody has ever commented on the BDUs, and I think I'm getting away with it. (Might be because I'm 60, though.) Both pants are made for scrambling in bad terrain (Royal was a rock climber and designed his pants for that), and they have lasted me years (remember my age, though - I may not scramble as much as you). Cargo pants and a long-sleeved t-shirt project an everyday image so long as you aren't blousing your pants in combat boots.

I wear my cargo pants and shirts to Burning Man every year - often around a hundred during the day, cool at night. Layers are your friend. So are hats and bandanas.

My suggestion is not to buy all one make of pants and shirts. REI sells many cargo pants that just don't wear well in the real world. They're made of some fabric that won't let you sweat through, and the fabric is too thin to last. I'm sure they're made for people who travel in planes and cars, but not on the ground.

That pic of Cochise looks a lot like Paul Newman in Hombre...

For cold Arizona nights Goyathlay would wrap up in a fine woolen blanket woven by the near cousins of the Apache people the Dine', aka Navahos.I was a litle boy living in Scottsdale and one day we drove out into the desert past the Salt river looking at property. It was the year when many cattle died of a fast moving strain of Hoof and Mouth and we saw countless corpses along the road. My mother rolled up the windows and announced we would never buy land there. I think it's now covered by tract homes and malls. Our pink, hemi engined Chrysler station wagon suddenly overheated and we pulled into the shade of a green paloverde tree, shade being relative.My father found the fan belt had snapped and slowly poured water from the flaxen desert bag into the radiator.About that time a Apache indian cowboy rode up on a skewbald horse. I was quickly in deep theological turmoil about who's side he would be on playing cowboys and indians.He walked off the road and returned with long fibrous leaves to weave an expediant fanbelt. We drove @ 20 MPH to the nearest gas station and found they were sold out. My father wheeled the car north for Scottsdale and headed home. Some idiot blew past us in an Olds 88 rocket on a blind curve, and my father, an early exponent of roadrage punched the hemie. We blew past the Olds at a safe and sane 100 MPH past bloated cows, land I would never inherit and our cowboy waving his hat overhead and making his horse pop up. Next morning the garage had to buy a new hacksaw blade to get that cactus fanbelt off for a superior rubber one that would wear out soon enough in the desert heat. This started my long association with ethnobotony and knwing what people used before we dug up dead dinosaurs to run our cars and dress in.

Wayne:
Phoenix has a very good search and rescue team that is out in the desert all the time, contact the sheriff as to there telephone number and talk with them. I am sure they can answer all of your questions as to clothing for desert use.

"yeah, but what about hitchhiking ticks?"

Like cactus, a fact of life.

Sue

sorry, for me, in the kilt + ticks vs pants + ticks discussion, pants win.

and not meaning any offense or disrespect, but in comparison and only looking for an honest answer - which i know you always give - would you, or any other of the ladies here, go hiking anywhere in an above-the-knee skirt, with or without underwear?

and you don't have to answer the underwear part.

for pants...howzabout the Utilikilt lol

"...with or without underwear..."

I don't know about the kilt thingy, but in really hot/humid weather, going commando is mucho more comfortable than wearing tightey whiteys...

To be really comfortable in the desert could get you into trouble as the fashion police may want to take you in dead or alive



apache moccasins



Utilikilt



Shemagh - Arab Scarf

The heat might not get you but some local rednecks are sure to.

These moccasins are very high. I like the puttee approach, it's versatile and compact and looks like they could make improvised bandage or something. Soldiers in WWI had ankle length boots and add/removed broadcloth puttees as need be. It prevents sands from getting inside of boots and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puttee

Hello WayneConrad,

Joe here, I lived in Phoenix for a little over a year and a half. Most of that on one of the two motorcycles I bought while living there. The clothing I used was cotton and leather. Denim pants, cotton shirts and leather jacket or vest.

My recommendations are to read the posts by benjamin and the others who recommend stuff like: coolmax, underarmor heat gear (the half of their line for hot weather) or the like. While I made my combination of leather over cotton work in the 105+ summer sun (actually about 130 degrees 2-3feet off the pavement, I checked temp with a lazer thermometer) you most likely will not be in the (minimum) 35-40 mph breeze I got on two wheels. Also, look at the 5.11 clothing line some one mentioned, most of the pants come with foam knee pads (this may help in some of the shooting positions you mentioned in your original post), they are typically solid color 6 pocket cargo pants. Carry a supply of water that you drink from such as camel back or similar style hydration pack. A light vinyl rain suit or poncho (40 gal garbage bag) will work for the rain. wide brimmed hat in a light color and thermal underwear for nights.

Additionally, keep sun screen handy and bug spray.

Welcome to the forum and best of luck with the new changes to your lifestyle.

-Joe-

ROTFLMAO!!!

Those Apache boots look like Oompa Loompa gear.

I got the image of someone walking around in the desert wearing all three of your choices at once; the mocs, the kilt, and the shemagh, and I got to thinking that any redneck that saw someone in that get up would be unable to shoot them for laughing too hard to hold a decent bead.

The shemagh is a darned fine piece of headgear, but it doesn't do much to keep my head cool in the desert heat, unless I can get it wet and the air is dry. It is handy as a light neck scarf to help keep you warm at night, marginal as a dust or sand storm sheild, and will keep the sun off your neck pretty well. It is also a good bandit rag for when you want to hide your facial features (as demonstrated in the photo). Last time I used one was while camping in the bush in Queensland last year. We were sleeping under the stars and I was having a bit of trouble with the bugs getting in my face and keeping me up, so I draped my shemagh over my head and tucked it in and had no more worries.

Thanks for the many great replies. I'm looking forward, the next time I venture into the desert, to not being saddled with jeans (hot!) or exposed with shorts and short sleeves. I'll be trying out some of my new desert wear at a shoot in late April.

BSA shirts on order. They look like a steal. I was a scout as a kid, so it won't feel much like I'm impersonating one.

Now for the pants. And maybe the skivvies. Still wrapping my head around that.

Can someone please give me a steer on BDU's? Are they all pretty much the same? Where do I purchase them? That info is probably back there somewhere, huh...

Thanks again for being so helpful to this life-long jeans wearing cityboy.

Here's a site for issued BDU's and other stuff

http://www.milcompass.com/bdutop.htm

Bro, for underwear, go for boxers. I'm a hiker, so I prefer the "boxer briefs" which sort of are like bicycling pants. They really help prevent chafing. Here are some mesh ones that I've used with good success on my hot wx hikes in the SW, including many in AZ. Was stationed in AZ three separate times. http://www.rei.com/product/731994 They also have non-mesh ones. The mesh ones breathe better, but the non mesh ones are a bit more durable. I use the mesh for summer and the non mesh for cooler wx.

These are the pants that I use for hiking: http://www.rei.com/product/746908
100% nylon, lightweight, strong, quick-drying, breathable, zip off legs, and pack really small. Recommend them highly. Bought some cotton ones about the same time. Cotton ones lasted a year or two, but the nylon ones are still going strong (albeit tattered). Of course in wx where it's not going to get too cool at night (>70F?), cotton will retain moisture and keep you cooler. I basically just use the nylon year round so I don't have to have muliple types of hiking pants. Keeps it simpler.

The shirts I like are the nylon ones from Sportif. Sometimes REI will carry them, but I get a lot of good deals at SierraTradingPost.com. Again, they're light, pack small, strong, breathable. The collar, when turned up helps keep the sun off my neck when needed. Some models have an extra fold in the collar that when unfolded covers even more of your neck. The velcro pockets are great for sunglasses, a compass, or even a small camera. Sleeves roll down for sun protection as well. Not too much selection on Sierra Trading Post right now but here are 3 of that brand:
Sportif-USA-UV-Wind-Knot-Shirt-Long-Sleeve-for-Men
Sportif-USA-Drake-Shirt-Long-Sleeve-For-Men
Sportif-USA-Kilimanjaro-Nylon-Shirt-Long-Sleeve-For-Men
I find that they're plenty comfortable after a wash or two.

For shooting, if your firing from the prone, the nylon will be a little thin in terms of providing padding from gravel, etc. If you're firing prone from a mat, no problem. If not, the US Army type BDU's (now ACU's) are great. Google them on the web or go to your local surplus store. I'd want plain kahki were I trying to avoid a military look. The real USGI ones are incredibly tough (I'm talking about the temperate weight 50% Nylon/50% Cotton ones here; the hot wx ones are great too, but not quite as durable). I got issued a pair of BDU pants in 1983 that I still have and are (more or less) wearable. In all fairness, this was a pair I didn't use as much as some other ones I was issued, and I don't wear them on a daily basis -- just outdoors stuff on weekends -- but still, 25 year old pants is pretty good. They're now threadbare in places, have some holes, the pockets have ripped out a bit, and the butt seams are starting to fail, but they've stood up to years of hiking, bushwhacking, and volunteer construction work.

This may be good stuff, but just one note: if it says "poly/cotton," then they're not USGI. They may be perfectly fine, but I just thought that it might be good to mention that these aren't government issue or made to military specifications.

> Can someone please give me a steer on BDU's? Are they all pretty much
> the same? Where do I purchase them? That info is probably back there
> somewhere, huh...

If they're real government issue, there are some variations in materials and weaves, but mostly they're all alike. I buy mine at government surplus stores in the various towns around here, so I can try them on. I've bought them in black, khaki, and navy, but not the camo patterns - I have no desire to look military. In solid colors, they just look like cargo pants.

I'd suggest trying a variety of makes, though: BDUs, REI, Ex Officio - whoever makes cargo pants. My preference is personal, and yours will be, too. I find heavier fabrics stand up better in use. The pockets on nylon and other thin man-made fabrics sag more than heavy cotton and don't maintain their shape when full of stuff; in the desert, I get some static electricity in unnatural fabrics that can be an unpleasant surprise, and while cotton absorbs sweat and lets it evaporate, some man-made fabrics don't absorb it and are very uncomfortable when I'm sweating like a pig.

I haven't bought pants that zip off at the knee, and I've lost track of how many guys I've seen wearing them - Many with the zipper pulled out at the seams, because the zipper is where your knee is when you're kneeling or sitting.

A comment on the zip offs: Definitely make sure to buy some where the zipper is well above the knee. If not they a) make poor shorts, b) are less comfortable 'cause the zipper drags across your knee, and as has been pointed out c) you create a point of failure.

The quality name brand ones are more expensive, but sometimes you get what you pay for. The REI ones are pretty good. A lot of the time, if you wait, they'll put them on sale as a "loss leader" to get people to come in to the store.

While not a mark down, right now there's a 20% discount for all REI members. If you're not a member, you can join on the spot, and they'll still give you the discount.

A comment on BDU's: the heavier, temperate climate ones are really tough, but are warmer. One option is to get the heavier temperate climate pants and the lighter hot climate shirts. This is a good option if you're going to be firing from kneeling position or doing a lot of things where your kness will hit the ground. Also, the heavier ones are great in brush and resist snags well. The temperate climate ones are definitely not as breathable as the hot climate ones.

Here's an interesting link on BDU's: BDU Info Note that the army has now switched to ACU's.

I'm not sure if that site is military issue for sure and this site
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/index.html has AUTHENTIC ENHANCED GOVERNMENT ISSUE they claim. I'm not sure if US Calv or who else might sale them? I know they have an assortment of blends, and cotton is a big no no. I'll still keep looking around to find a site other than getting a friend to buy them on base.

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/woodland.shtml

TRU-SPEC® WOODLAND 60% COTTON 40% POLY TWILL PANTS
(MADE TO US MILITARY SPECIFICATION MIL-T-44047E)
(MEDIUM WEAR - ALL CLIMATES)


TRU-SPEC® WOODLAND 100% COTTON RIP-STOP PANTS
(MADE TO US MILITARY SPECIFICATION MIL-T-44047E)
(MEDIUM WEAR - HOT CLIMATES)

"Enhanced" government issue generally means "not government issue." They might meet a mil-spec, but if they're poly-cotton, they're not the same as the ones issued to the troops. It's a fairly moot point if they're good quality, but I can't imagine that poly-cotton would be as strong and as breathable as cotton-nylon.

While cotton is sometimes considered a "big no-no," it's not really. In hot weather it's not going to contribute to hypothermia. However, having hiked in Japan and Korea over the last few years, cotton just doesn't dry out well in humid climates and can present a "funk" problem if you're overnighting in the field. Nylon still soaks through in a humid climate, but it dries out well. Cotton gets pretty nasty, particularly socks and undies after a few days in the field in a hot, humid climate. Give me synthetics any day. Cotton is great in warm or hot weather in a dry climate like the American SW.

The military still uses cotton content for their "all climate," general issue uniforms. I speculate that part of it is that synthetics alone are a bit noisy; the cotton blend quiets it down some. The cotton does present something of a hypothermia risk, particularly since the majority of hypothermia cases occur between 30F and 50F, a temperature range in which the military generally wouldn't issue specialized uniforms. On a more positive note, they finally started issuing wicking T shirts and long johns which are a huge improvement over the cotton stuff they issued back in my day. Even though cotton has its problems, the cotton-nylon BDU material is a HUGE improvement over the old OG 507 poly-cotton fatigues which tore easily, didn't breathe well at all, and really weren't all that practical in terms of pockets, freedom of movement, etc. We still had a few of the old OG 107 100% cotton uniforms around when I first got in which were a lot better than the OG 507's, but still the BDU's are a huge upgrade over even the OG 107's, not to mention the fact that BDU's are camo and the 107's/507's were solid OG. I remember being skeptical when the BDU's first came out, but a couple of low-light condition ops more than convinced me. Camo really works, particularly in low light when your eyes aren't able to see as clearly.

Brigade Quartermasters is probably worth a nod and a look:

http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/index.tam

A quick after-action report.

Executive summary: For the shooting sports, all cotton shirts. No synthetics!

I ordered a few of the Boy Scout action shirts and wore one to the range to practice for the shoot. They're priced right, and comfortable and cool. However, I found that shirt with synthetics in them are right out for the shooting sports. The sling was slipping down on my arm, and the stock wouldn't stay put. During the first day of the shoot, one fellow was wearing his favorite stay-cool hiking shirt, also loaded with synthetics, and it was doing the same thing to him. On the second day of the shoot, he showed up with all cotton, and had no problems with the sling and the stock staying put.

For hiking the boy-scout shirt will be great. For the shoot, I showed up with an all-cotton BDU shirt I ordered. It worked great. The sling stayed put like it was glued on.

The slacks I wore were a cotton/poly BDU bottom. They worked great. Kept me cool, had plenty of pockets. My only gripe is that the size adjustment straps on the waist won't hold, because of the slippery synthetic fabric. Well, I've got a belt for size adjustment, so no big deal there. I think the BDU design is for cotton fabrics, so it's no surprise that synthetic fabrics break the design.

I sweated plenty--drank a gallon and a half a day--but had no problem with the cotton shirt. It breathed fine and didn't collect sweat, despite being rather heavy fabric. Same for the cotton/poly slacks. Wish I could say the same for the undies. I regret that I have yet to follow up on your recommendations for skivvies, for they got uncomfortable when I was sweating the most.

Thanks again. You helped this city boy deal with the desert sun. It was a good shoot.

Wayne,

I'm glad you had a good time at the Appleseed. The closest I came to a desert shoot was at the Boulder City shoot earlier this year, and it wasn't very hot yet. That said, I am originally from Texas, and I would recommend long sleeve cotton shirts, bandanas for the back of the neck, and a good hat. I wear 5.11 pants but then I wear them everyday. I actually had a very old pair split out on me dropping into sitting at a shoot... Ah memories...

My biggest problem is with eye protection. They always fog up on me when in prone for long periods of time (ie Stage 4). Especially if it's humid. You don't have to worry about that much in AZ.

Greg

Hmm, I've not had a problem with synthetics shooting afield or at the range. The butt plates on all my rifles (except the lever guns) are all soft rubber, and my stocks have a neoprene backing, so all are sticky enough to work with synth material.
However, I know that finished leather, cordura, metal and finished wood all are going to be slippery on synthetic fabric, so I can see where that could be a problem. I am also a big fan of long sleeved shirts and bandanas and hats in the sun.

An old diving remedy for foggy lenses was a cotton bag of wet cigarette tobacco. Rub that on your lenses and it should fairly eliminate the fogging up problem. I think there's some products made for treating windshields that'll do the same. Rain Dance or something like that.

Thanks! Out of curiosity, how did you know?

"Shooters, prepare one magagine with 10 rounds. The course of fire will be ten rounds standing on the top target. Your one minute prep period has begun!" Here's me and my trusty bolt gun getting ready for stage 1.



I was one of two shooters that took home a rifleman patch.

Benjamin, It's not just the stock, but the sling that I had trouble with. I couldn't for the life of me get the loop (or half-loop, since I was using the Safari Ching Sling) to stay put on a nylon-cotton sleeve. But you're exactly right when you guessed that my rifle's butt plate is slick.

A bandana, I could have used. I forgot to bring one. I went through a lot of sun screen. Portable shade was provided, but I was on the end of the line on both days, and got no use of it.

I understand well your problems with that sling. That's why I recommend neoprene. It is tacky enough to grab even satiny nylon.

BTW, awesome pic. That CZ really has a classy look.

I knew because I'm an Appleseeder as well, and I recognized your username from the forum. Plus, where else would you have been shooting on the 19th? I think you were shooting with my best friend AZGrommit, right?

Are you telling me that you shot rifleman with a bolt gun? If so, I'm impressed, to say the least. Congrats on your accomplishment, no matter what rifle you used.

By the way, I put some friction tape (like you put on stair steps) on the back of my M1A and it helped a great deal.

Greg

jeans, a hat, a long sleeve t-shirt and always go commando.