Shelter options for backcountry day hikes

Posted by: GoatMan

Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/28/08 06:42 PM

My background (Colorado): Long time hunter, hiker, backpacker, Eagle Scout w/3 palms back in the day - Long time reader of ETS but rare poster.

When I hit the trail for a day hike, everything is carried in an Ultimate Direction hip pack like the one linked below. When I do summits, like a 14'teener, I have a torso-pack version so it holds more gear and a more complete PSK, but you get the general idea. I'm focusing on improving my hip pack. Think of it as a little more than Doug's EDC+ fanny pack.

EDC Gear on person:
Wallet, keys, lip balm, phone, handkerchief/bandanna, Gerber folding lock blade, Signature SAK, mini REI whistle or modified mini FOX 40, mag fire stick, Princeton Tec pinch light or LED maglight or Surefire E2E. Some items vary depending on if I'm in the office, biking, or hiking.

Hip Pack:
Ultimate Direction hip pack
Modified version of Doug's PSP (better cordage, signaling, water purification, etc)
Modified AMK Pocket FAK .3 (personalized)
General snacks like granola/Power Bars
Leatherman
Water
Camera
Adequate clothing*
SHELTER *

The bulk of the items are water, food, and extra layers of clothing. I star clothing and shelter on that list because both play a part in protection from the elements and it is what I'm seeking feedback on. If you desire to comment on other items, that's fine, but I'm focusing on the most important - SHELTER.

Some common options (with links for convenience - you can get this stuff anywhere):

Gear Head options:
Basic foil emergency space blanket - familiar with benefits vs. limitations
Tacoma Mountain Rescue Storm Shelter - No experience with these
Extreme Pro-Tech Bag - No experience with this, claims a lot but may be too bulky for hip pack.
AMK Heatsheet Blanket - No experience - How much better is this than a typical space blanket?
AMK Heatsheet Emergency Bivvy - No experience - Is this basically the Heatsheet in a bag form?
AMK Thermo-Lite 2 Bivvy - Excellent product

Rain Gear options:
Garbage bag one dollar Emergency Poncho
Lightweight Vinyl Poncho
Military Ripstop Nylon Poncho
Military GI Poncho - Got mine from military surplus. Not sure what mine is made of, but it is tough as nails

Misc options:
X-mil thick plastic
Basic tarp
Tarp like " Thermal Blanket"
Classic Orange Tube Tent - have one, never use it, probably dump it


There could be much more listed, I'm sure, but it is a basic list for review.

When I know it won't rain, I skip any form of rain gear unless I throw in the one dollar plastic poncho. When I think there is a chance of rain, I bring an appropriate outer shell that works for warmth in clothing and will function as rain gear.

I always take at least a space blanket. If I plan on a high altitude or extended hike, I take the my AMK Thermo-Lite (v1) Bivvy and the space blanket. The space blanket is small enough (repacked smaller) that it goes anywhere. I really like the AMK Thermo-Lite Bivvy. It is light enough that weight is no concern. Bulk on the other hand can be an issue in a hip pack so I'm looking at some of these smaller alternatives.

How much advantage does the Tacoma shelter, AMK Heatsheet blanket or bivy have over the basic space blanket. Is there that much more durability? I'm interested in feedback from those who have used one.

I'm mainly interested in feedback on the gear head options (categorized that way for discussion purposes only), but the rain gear and misc options make a shelter option as well. Who uses one of them in place of the gear head options? Incorporating multiple items can always be of benefit and can be used on the larger pack, but space is of consideration for the hip pack. When I want the heavier and bulkier gear for the backpack, I'm thinking I'll use a ripstop nylon military poncho for rain gear and tarp like shelter options (in addition to my clothing / outer shell).

I wasn't sure how to put this together so hopefully this thread isn't too wordy.
Posted by: raydarkhorse

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/28/08 09:14 PM

All I know about the hip pack you use is what the write up says. When I lived in Colorado I used (still do some times) a military butt pack attached to a standard military pistol belt. It is about 400cu. inches vs the 300cu. inches yours has. I carried a AMK Thermo-Lite 2 Bivvy and a military rip stop poncho. I would take it out of it's bag and roll it up and put it in the bottom of my pack then do the same with my poncho, and if you use some compression straps they they pack very small. along with them I would carry an MRE removed from the main bag, and my survival kit including another space blanket. You should be able to carry along the same amount of gear because I still had room to spare. I spent several nights out in the feild with just the contents of this pack over the 4 year that I lived there.
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/28/08 09:35 PM

can I assume sunglasses/ hat?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/28/08 09:42 PM

Functionally the AMK v1 and v2 bivy's are very similar. The 2.0 bivy only reflects 80% radiant heat compared to the v1's 90% because the inside is lined and can oly be described as fuzzy. This combined with thicker (reinforced?) material, lots of velcro, a foot vent, etc. make it overall bigger and heavier. The v1 uses material very similar if not identical to their heatsheets (silver one one side, orange on the other).

I use the 2.0 bivy in my sleep system as a vapor barrier for cold weather and because it works so well on it's own in mild temperatures. I haven't tested the latter use yet but plan to this summer.

I keep the v1 in my shoulder bag as EDC fare along side my siltarponcho. I've never needed to bivouac emergency style with it yet...and I hope I never need to...but since it's about the size of an apple when bundled, I hardly notice it's there.

I also carry a regular space blanket with the tarp/poncho (cheap Coghlan's) as a ground sheet or a backup to give to somebody else in need.
Posted by: SARbound

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/28/08 10:45 PM

I've been carrying a Heatsheet blanket and an extra-large orange trash bag and have been confident those two items would be adequate in a survival situation. I have considered one of those AMK bivies, however I changed my mind and kept the Heatsheet blanket. Here's why :

One day at the end of a dayhike, a lady went into anaphylactic shock after a sting. It was raining, she was cold, her speech was slurred, it was a real emergency. I asked for a survival blanket "or something", then one guy pulled out something that looked like an AMK blanket, and handed it to me. I went "perfect" and opened it up : it was a bivy. No time to slit it open, so I had to manage with this narrow bivy to cover the patient, knowing the reflective layer was inside. I wish I had my pack nearby but all went so fast, I felt it was better for me to care for her (raise her legs, watch her head, etc.) Since that event, I chose to go with the Heatsheet blanket.

You seem to pretty well know what you're talking about, my friend. I would just not worry too too much if I were you. Like Dale Carnegie says, stop worrying and start living wink
Posted by: mtnhiker

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/28/08 11:00 PM

I carry all three, the thermo-lite bivvy,the heatsheat blanket and the heatsheet bivvy(during the colder seasons). I put one bivvy inside the other due to the velcro closing. I compressed the thermo-lite a little more and slid it down into a "ti" cup thus the cup takes up no space hardly at all since I carry the bivvy always. My Mil-spec glass signal mirror is stuck in between folds on the heatsheat blanket for prtection.
I have never had to use them(knock on wood) but lots of people say they are the way to go for good sleep/shelter when weight is an issue.
Posted by: Blitz

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/28/08 11:28 PM

For Shelter, in my day/survival/utility Vest. Which some day soon I'll post.

1 AMK Thermolite 2.0 Bivy bag

1 AMK heat sheet 2 person extra blanket, signaling

1 Ripstop Poncho tarp

1 Combat Casualty blanket x-tra ground cloth, signaling, tarp

http://www.uscav.com/Productinfo.aspx?productID=7953&TabID=548

This is for shelter only doesn't include everything else in the vest.


Blitz


Posted by: mtnhiker

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/28/08 11:43 PM

I like the casualty blanket and it's civilian counterpart/thermal blanket as well but carry them in my BOB and car kit just due to their bulk. great functional products though.
Posted by: Hikin_Jim

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/29/08 12:22 AM

I personally like the bivvy style. If I'm in a survival situation, that bivvy is going to keep me warmer than a blanket made from the same material; the bivvy goes all the way around my body, and wind can't blow in from the sides and rob me of heat. It's the same issue as a down quilt vs. a down sleeping bag. Generally a sleeping bag is warmer.

The thermo lite 2 bivvies are a tad bulky if all you're going to carry is a hip pack. Since they're so light, you could tie or otherwise secure the bivvy to the bottom (or top) of your hip pack, leaving the pack to carry items not so easily suspended. I like that they are multi-use, quieter, and sturdier than things like garbage bags or items made from space blanket material.

Re the bulk issue, another option is to just carry a day pack. I personally use a day pack since a hip pack was just too small for me to carry sufficient gear to provide what I felt was an adequate level of preparedness.

OTHER COMMENTS:
Basic foil emergency space blanket - good for signalling, can be used for emergency rain gear, not as good as bivvy. Noisy, single use only, prone to tearing. See Doug Ritter's comments: http://www.equipped.org/shelter.htm#Space
Tacoma Mountain Rescue Storm Shelter - Doug Ritter says he carries one. See http://www.equipped.org/onyrown.htm#ishelter
Extreme Pro-Tech Bag - Looks like single use, easily torn, and noisy.
AMK Heatsheet Blanket - Haven't used. Highly recommended in Cody Lundin's book, 98.6 Degrees -- How to Keep Your Ass Alive
AMK Heatsheet Emergency Bivvy - Looks like it is a Heatsheet bivvy.
AMK Thermo-Lite 2 Bivvy - multi use, low noise, less tear prone. In warm weather, I've used this for back packing along with a sleeping bag liner. Worked great.

ONE LAST COMMENT:
I still carry my old USGI coated nylon poncho. Of course it serves as a poncho, but it's big enough that it can protect your fanny pack or day back as well. It also makes a good ground cloth if you want to protect your bivvy from getting torn up. It can be snapped together length-wise to make a tube into which the bivvy can be inserted which will add more insulation and also protect the bivvy. A poncho can also be rigged as a lean to. Place your bivvy under the lean to and build a fire near your bivvy. The poncho lean to traps heat in the area of your bivvy. The lean to also can provide some shelter for your gear while you're in your bivvy. The USGI ponchos are a bit heavier than the sil or vinyl versions, but they're pretty tough and are multi-use. If you carry trekking poles and a little cord, USGI ponchoes can also be made into a little pup tent.
Posted by: GoatMan

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/29/08 01:02 AM

Thanks for all of the feedback.

It sounds like Falcon5000 has tried what looks like the Extreme Pro-Tech Bag. His new thread shows some screen shots of an identical looking product. Guess that one is out.

I guess I'm leaning towards the AMK Heatsheet bivvy or the Tacoma Mountain Rescue Storm Shelter. They seem fairly similar but I may have to do some additional homework.

For summits and backpacking, the Thermo-Lite bivvy will always be with me. I really trust it. I like the adjustable opening which keeps you from sweating.

I may also invest into a vinyl military poncho that snaps on the edges and is so versatile. Use it when wanting a light load in combination with the AMK Heatsheet bivvy or the Tacoma Mountain Rescue Storm Shelter.

Keep the feedback coming. I appreciate the input.

Posted by: Paragon

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/29/08 03:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Blitz
For Shelter, in my day/survival/utility Vest. Which some day soon I'll post.

1 AMK Thermolite 2.0 Bivy bag

1 AMK heat sheet 2 person extra blanket, signaling

1 Ripstop Poncho tarp

1 Combat Casualty blanket x-tra ground cloth, signaling, tarp

http://www.uscav.com/Productinfo.aspx?productID=7953&TabID=548

This is for shelter only doesn't include everything else in the vest.

Blitz

I too carry the following "Shelter & Personal Protection" related items in either a North Face Sport Hiker™ utility waist pack (550 cu in / 9L) or a Columbia Omni-Dry® Ridge Trek™ Venture Vest (depending upon the situation) and still have plenty of room left over for all my other essential "category" items (Medical & First Aid, Fire & Light, Water & Food, Signaling & Communication, Wilderness Navigation, Knives & Tools, Multi-purpose Components, and Miscellaneous Components):
  • AMK Thermo-Lite® 2.0 Bivvy Sack, 84" x 36"/27"
  • Cocoon® Coolmax® Mummy Liner, 86" x 32"/24"
  • AMK Heatsheets® 2 Person Survival Blanket, 96" x 60"
  • Coghlan's® Survival Bag, 3 Mil Poyethylene, Orange, 84" x 36"
  • Ruffies® 45 Gallon Trash Bag Liner, Clear, 45" x 38"
  • Coleman® Emergency Poncho, 50" x 80", #9173
  • Coleman® Disposable Hand Warmers (4)
  • The North Face® M Vortex Stretch-Fit Fleece Glove Liners, XL
  • Buff® Original Multifuntional Headwear, 12-in-1 Styles, Indore Blue
  • Hav-A-Hank® Bandana, 22" x 22", Blue
  • Solar∙Rolz™ Post-Mydriatic Sunglasses
  • Vaseline® Lip Therapy, Cherry, 0.35 oz
  • Coppertone™ Sport UVA/UVB Sunblock, SPF 30, 1 oz

I also have a larger North Face Day Hiker™ waist pack (1,000 cu in / 16.5L) or Camelbak® Alpine Explorer™ Day Pack (1,900 cu in / 31.1L) that I use for longer treks, and they each carry everything listed above, as well as the following:
  • Byer Amazonas® Miskito Traveller™ Hammock, Nylon w/ Integral No-See-Um™ Misquito Canapy, 84" x 54", Spruce Green
  • Byer Amazonas® Microrope™ Ultra-Light Hammock Rope Set, 1/4" Polyester Braid, 330 lbs Maximum, 10' Adj. Range
  • Equinox® 10' x 12' Siliconized Ultralight Backpacking Tarpaulin, 3 Mil, Green, Model 20070 (Rain Fly)
  • Shockcord, 1/8" Diameter, 25', Red (Rain Fly Ridge Line)
  • Braided Nylon Paracord, 1/8" Dia x 10', 300 lb Test, Green (Rain Fly Guide Lines)
  • Vargo® Titanium Nail Pegs, 6" Long w/ 50mm Steel Lanyard Rings (Rain Fly Anchors) (6)
  • The North Face® M Venture Side Vent Rain Pants, HyVent D™, Black
  • The North Face® Crosswinds Anora Hooded Rain Jacket, w/Stuff Sack, Ultramar Blue

While I realize this amount of gear may seem overkill for most people on this board, I'm a gearwhore who strongly subscribes to the old adage of "It’s better to carry something you don't need than to need something you don't carry".

In reality, I firmly believe my wilderness skills and training would actually allow me to survive for several days with nothing more than the EDC items in my pockets, although this system insures that I'll be comfortable waiting for the SAR guys to arrive, and the limited redundancy allows me to provide for an additional hiking companion that may not be as well prepared.

The last time I checked, the Day Hiker kit or Venture Vest system weighed in at just under six pounds (plus an additional 2.2 lbs with water) so it's actually quite manageable.

If anyone would like me to post pictures of my setup, I'll try to when I get a chance.

[hijack thread]On that note, is Photobucket a decent site to look into for photo hosting, or are there better options out there?[/hijack thread]

Jim



Posted by: raydarkhorse

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/29/08 02:16 PM

Originally Posted By: teacher
can I assume sunglasses/ hat?

I put those on as I leave the house.
Posted by: ohiohiker

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/29/08 04:13 PM

Since I'm almost always in an area with plenty of natural shelter (overhangs, etc), or at least shelter-building materials, I often carry only a contractor size trash bag as an emergency shelter on day hikes. I carry a smaller trash bag for sitting/kneeling when taking photos.

In colder or constantly rainy weather, I might add one or more of these:
  • lightweight vinyl poncho
  • breathable nylon rain pants
  • PVC rain jacket (for constant cold, wet weather) (I may replace this with a breathable rain jacket.)

I'm always dressed in synthetics, usually have at least a fleece jacket, hat, and polypropylene glove liners. I often just leave any raingear packed and enjoy the wet hike, even down into the 30's. crazy
Posted by: GoatMan

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 02/29/08 05:31 PM

Paragon - Yea, that is a bit overkill for my taste. Everyone has their own way of doing things though. I keep redunancy in other areas like fire. Two layers, like bivvy & poncho, in addition to my clothing is adequate for me. If I'll be in conditions which require more, I plan accordingly. I do think you should keep the filter straw though. I keep one in my larger kit as well. Yea, they aren't as good as a real filter, but it is better to have it in case you run out of purification tablets or your water containers fail you. My filter straw is my last resort, before drinking untreated. Again, it is good to know the limitations of your equipment.

OhioHiker - I'll take the dry road. I last a lot longer that way. It's also much better if things go south and you have to spend the night. If you're already wet and it dips into the 30's at night, you've set yourself up for hypothermia.

Posted by: jaywalke

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 03/01/08 01:28 PM

The Tacoma shelter is basically a tube tent. I haven't used mine yet, but the plastic is very thin. The only advantage over the Heatsheet might be that you could fit two people inside it. If I ever had to use mine, I would pull it down over my body like a sock rather than try to set it up as a tarp or tent. I just can't see that material surviving being tied out at all.

In winter I carry the Thermo-Lite bivy for dayhiking, and a Heetsheet (single) for rigging over the top to keep rain off.

In summer I carry a double Heatsheet for me (may buy the HS bivy at some point, and rely on my raingear (Campmor nylon poncho) as a tarp or burrito wrap over the top.


Jaywalke
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 03/01/08 07:56 PM

I had good luck with just a few basic pieces.

A simple coated nylon tarp. Roughly six by eight foot with numerous grommets and/or ties is about right. Rigged flat it is a sun shelter or protection from a light summer shower. Rigged at an angle back to the wind it will hold up to a squall. Rigged three corners down a storm. Strung with all sides tight to the ground with only enough head room to lay under you could ride out a hurricane as long as you set up behind a wind break.

In insect season, about eleven and a half months a year around here, I bring a mosquito net I can rig under the tarp a head net and repellent.

I keep a number of plastic stakes and light lines in a stuff sack. I sometimes have used my walking stick as a pole and have sometimes brought a thin shock-corded pole to help make erecting a shelter easier.

A ground cloth. Two-and-a-half by four foot works well for a lunch break or afternoon nap in good condition. In this size treated cotton canvas is great and will take many years abuse. If you plan on sleeping overnight or the conditions warrant a larger ground cloth is better but to keep weight down you will want to go with a thinner cloth.

If your a bit older, plan on sitting a lot or the ground is less accommodating a small closed-cell foam pad, 12' by 16" works for me, is handy. This can be used to keep that can of beans off your spine, for sitting on cold-wet ground or during food prep or detailed craft work as a convenient flat spot.

A Thermo-Rest, self-inflating sleeping pad, is nice but I have sometimes gotten by with just my small piece of closed cell foam under my hip.

This would be in addition to a sleeping bag, a simple blanket in summer, appropriate to the temperatures. If I expect rain I usually bring an extra garbage bag so I have the option of sleeping with the lower half of the sleeping bag, or blanket, in it safe from the storm. A bivy bag would be the next step up.
Posted by: Glock-A-Roo

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 03/03/08 07:58 PM

This is a great topic, since so many do dayhikes. A SAR guy who works in the Smokies told me that a lot of their SAR missions are for dayhikers since most never expect to be out overnight and don't plan ahead like us survival nuts. Improvised shelter becomes a very important issue for the dayhiker, as opposed to the overnighter who is planning to make some form of shelter.

Like someone else said, it sounds like GoatMan knows his stuff & would be fine with whatever was on hand. I too love the old AMK ThermoLite products. I will say that the AMK HeatSheet and bivvy are truly more durable than the old-school mylar space blankets & bivvys based on my personal tests. Doug Ritter has fleshed this out well.

I prefer an oversized orange trash bag over a tube tent. This is a strategy espoused by Peter Kummerfeldt although I think the 4-mil bag he sells is too thick & heavy (over 8oz) for the purpose; a 2 or 3 mil bag is fine. You can use this same technique with the AMK HeatSheet bivvy, making for a very effective package that is light & effective.



I can cut a hole in the corner of the bag and wear it as a piece of body-sized raingear that protects me as well as (if not better than) a tube tent when sitting/laying down. But I can also wear it while hiking if need be; just add a couple of arm holes. I always hike with a lightweight waterproof/breathable shell (Patagonia RainShadow) but I can give the bag away to someone who gets caught without raingear, or I can slice it up to make a sheet/tarp/whatever.
Posted by: atoz

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 03/03/08 09:04 PM

" vinyl military poncho " Get a nylon one, it is lighter at least from the vinyl ones I have seen and bought.

cheers
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 03/03/08 10:46 PM


Tube tents and plastic biviy bags make excellent body bags. Perfect for wrapping the hypothermia victims mortal remains in.
Cut the tube tent in half length ways. That will give you two decent sized plastic sheets. Use them to waterproof a A-Frame shelter.
Using them in the classical fashion is a tactic of desperation.
Posted by: Glock-A-Roo

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 03/03/08 11:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Tube tents and plastic biviy bags make excellent body bags. Perfect for wrapping the hypothermia victims mortal remains in.
Cut the tube tent in half length ways. That will give you two decent sized plastic sheets. Use them to waterproof a A-Frame shelter. Using them in the classical fashion is a tactic of desperation.


Um, ok... a little UK hyperbole there, perhaps? Why so doctrinaire? I suppose you believe yourself to be more of an expert on this than Peter Kummerfeldt, who spent decades teaching SERE in the military and teaches this very technique today. It works; I've tested it (on purpose during training) firsthand in the field.

Wear some insulating clothing underneath the bag & you are fine. Sweaty, but insulated enough to be warm while the bag keeps out the wind & cold rain. An A-frame blocks the wind & blowing rain much less. If you have no insulating clothes, you're no better off under a breezy A-frame than you are wrapped up in the bag.
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/09/08 01:08 PM

I carry the AMK Heatsheet and Tacoma Storm Shelter in my day pack as well. I have them vacuumed packed to reduce their size even more and to keep them flat. Plus the vacuum bags can make emergency water containers / collection devices if I need it.

I throw in an emergency rain poncho, just in case. Since the form factor is so small, I'm sure that I can find a use for it.

Of course I carry a modified PSP from Doug and a personal FAK.

I use to carry one of those typical space blankets, but after really reading up and understanding them, I realized they wouldn't be too useful and switched to the Heatsheet.

Obviously there are a lot of other misc. things I carry such as food and water, but I believe the point here was shelter / warmth.

I figure, for a survival situation, I could set up the shelter and snuggle in the heatsheet. Obviously, if I'm going to be in the woods for an overnighter, I have my tent and a lot of other gear with me.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/10/08 12:16 AM

I EDC a heatsheet, and keep a heatsheet bivy in my ditch/basic hiking kit. Contractor bags appear everywhere- they fold up about the size of a thin sandwich.
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/10/08 02:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Tube tents and plastic biviy bags make excellent body bags. Perfect for wrapping the hypothermia victims mortal remains in.
Cut the tube tent in half length ways. That will give you two decent sized plastic sheets. Use them to waterproof a A-Frame shelter.
Using them in the classical fashion is a tactic of desperation.


A waterproof bivybag or garbage bag can make all the difference for someone already soaking wet.

We found a lost snowboarder who had been hiking in a stream (the
snow was too deep to wallow through) on his attempt to walk out.
Soaked throughout and dressed in layers of cotton clothes, the
temperature was -17 F. Shivering violently, as soon as he
was tucked in an impermiable bivy, he warmed up and stopped
shivering, until a few hours later a tent, sleeping bag and
hot pizza could be dropped by helicopter. When he got out of
the bivy, there was a good 6 inches of water in the bottom.


An a frame will not prevent the loss of heat due to evaporation
and convection like the same material close around the body.

If you are already dry, then an A frame will allow ventilation
which will reduce condensation from your own body moisture.
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/10/08 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By: clearwater
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Tube tents and plastic biviy bags make excellent body bags. Perfect for wrapping the hypothermia victims mortal remains in.
Cut the tube tent in half length ways. That will give you two decent sized plastic sheets. Use them to waterproof a A-Frame shelter.
Using them in the classical fashion is a tactic of desperation.


A waterproof bivybag or garbage bag can make all the difference for someone already soaking wet.

We found a lost snowboarder who had been hiking in a stream (the
snow was too deep to wallow through) on his attempt to walk out.
Soaked throughout and dressed in layers of cotton clothes, the
temperature was -17 F. Shivering violently, as soon as he
was tucked in an impermiable bivy, he warmed up and stopped
shivering, until a few hours later a tent, sleeping bag and
hot pizza could be dropped by helicopter. When he got out of
the bivy, there was a good 6 inches of water in the bottom.


An a frame will not prevent the loss of heat due to evaporation
and convection like the same material close around the body.

If you are already dry, then an A frame will allow ventilation
which will reduce condensation from your own body moisture.


Operative term here is "already soaking wet". By rights that moron should be dead. Violent shivering etc. He is at best minutes away from collapse, coma, death. Improperly dressed and no snow shoes. Magic.

A bivvy bags function is to provide a barrier against wind and rain. I carry one but it is a Rab Survival Zone Pertex bag. I also carry a poncho as well.

In the case above it worked, but i would be interested in other views as to when it will/won't work.
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/10/08 09:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Tube tents and plastic biviy bags make excellent body bags. Perfect for wrapping the hypothermia victims mortal remains in.
Cut the tube tent in half length ways. That will give you two decent sized plastic sheets. Use them to waterproof a A-Frame shelter. Using them in the classical fashion is a tactic of desperation.


Um, ok... a little UK hyperbole there, perhaps? Why so doctrinaire? I suppose you believe yourself to be more of an expert on this than Peter Kummerfeldt, who spent decades teaching SERE in the military and teaches this very technique today. It works; I've tested it (on purpose during training) firsthand in the field.

Wear some insulating clothing underneath the bag & you are fine. Sweaty, but insulated enough to be warm while the bag keeps out the wind & cold rain. An A-frame blocks the wind & blowing rain much less. If you have no insulating clothes, you're no better off under a breezy A-frame than you are wrapped up in the bag.


As you correctly say: you had better be wearing the right clothing under it. To me that means wool or pile and a Gore-Tex layer. You also need some sort of flameless heat source in there.

And in the nicest fashion possible, you might want to consider the possibility that "taught for decades" does not mean right in all circumstances. I would be curious to see if demonstration of the technique involves a discussion of it's limitations.

"I suppose you believe yourself to be more of an expert on this than Peter Kummerfeldt?" Under what circumstances?

As it happens I looked at his web-site and added it to my list of Recommended Viewing for Neophyte Outdoorsman.

Posted by: clearwater

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/10/08 03:52 PM

Things you will never hear a snowboarder say:

Is this your five dollar bill?
I'll take the small baggy.
Does my hair look too blue?
Checkmate.

I was amazed at how well the wet cotton wrapped snowboarder did
after sticking him in a silnylon sack. I now am convinced of the
value of the heatsheet etc. type bivy sacks for emergencies for the
short term.

Since there was no wind or rain in that search, an A frame shelter
would have added little insulation value other than a bit of
protection from radiation heat loss. The waterproof fabric
close to the body helped a lot more and was able to be applied
immeadiately.

For survival training we teach 4th graders, we have them bring
large garbage bags for the same purpose.

Posted by: TeacherRO

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/10/08 05:06 PM

Given that you're high up and often going higher up, I'd add a fleece shell combo jacket, plus a watch cap and gloves.

Teacher

( Not all of you options will work well above the tree line - do u carry poles?)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/11/08 01:40 AM

Many snowboarders wear what I've heard called ghetto snow pants. They take baggy jeans and starch the hell out of them...they're practically impervious to snow and water.
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/11/08 02:39 PM

When I was in tech school in the Air Force we starched the hell out of our fatigues with Perma-starch. After a while, if you bent your leg too much, the fabric would break (not tear, break) at the knee. I wonder how those boarders avoid that???
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/12/08 12:44 PM

Over my time in the outdoors, I have spent an unplanned, or semi-planned, night outdoors about fifteen or twenty times. On at least three occasions, I had no blanket or sack, but had a stove or the means to build a fire. My bivy sack on most of the other occasions was a nylon sack, coated on one side and uncoated on the other. Any of the AMK products work better than that sack, but the sack was good enough that I was able to get some rest and function better when dawn finally came. Best of all is a gore-tex bivy sack, but that is relatively heavy. As important as the shelter is the source of warmth - fire or stove. There is nothing like a warm drink at 3 in the morning to boost morale.

For personal use a bivy sack is more protective and warmer for the weight, but for treating a casualty, a blanket gives the access that is necessary for adequate treatment.

I now carry the Thermo-Lite 2 Bivy as part of my core gear. I am not sure that I will use it very much, since after years of trying, I have finally figured out how to get home before the sun sets.
Posted by: GoatMan

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/12/08 01:51 PM

Interesting to see this thread come alive again.

I ended up purchasing a few AMK Heatsheet bivvys. A bivvy is always warmer than a blanket when you need it to be. Based on the material, you can sweat, but it is easily fixed by adding a strip of duct tape towards the bottom and making a slit for ventilation. This acts similar to the much better and functional AMK Thermo-Lite bivvy which has velcro sides for heat adjustment. I've used the Thermo-Lite on multiple occasions and it is well worth the investment. I have every vote of confidence in the Heatsheet bivvy, knowing it's limitations, that it can perform as I expect. If I need it as a blanket for any reason, a knife will take care of that.

Happy Hiking!
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/29/19 03:23 AM

You could also pack 2 jumbo yard waste bags per person
Posted by: Phaedrus

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/29/19 06:04 AM

I always include at least two Space Blankets in my gear and often a bivvy of the same material. My thinking is to use one as a ground cover or blanket and the other as a tarp. Having experimented with them in a variety of conditions I'm under no illusion that they'll keep my toast and comfortable but they can keep me dry, and perhaps provide that margin of survival. Also they can be used to make a Palmer Furnace provided I have the other associated stuff (and I do usually have a couple of beeswax tea light candles).

A very old thread indeed. A bit melancholy seeing OBG's post but in a good way.
Posted by: Roarmeister

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/29/19 06:53 PM

Reviving old threads is quite often informative.

I carry an 2GoSystems reflective Tyvek tarp bivy (36" x 87") and a silnylon poncho tarp. https://ca-2gosystems.glopalstore.com/products/trifecta?variant=5897656453 I have tested the bivy with a wool anorak down to 4°C, no wind; that's the limit of comfort without addition insulation. The bivy is about the size of a loaf of bread 4"Ø x 9.5" and the poncho tarp is about 1/3 that size. It sorta fits into my 750ml cup/pot.

I also carry a collapsible hiking stick. ON it I have wrapped a 6-mil drum liner, 750-paracord, 36# bank line, duct tape and snare wire. The cork knob on the top screws off so that I can attach a camera or binoculars to it.

Space blankets are not blankets and should never be used as such. They are OK for an hour and then gather a ton of sweat from you body. Their main claim to fame is their low cost. AMK's more specialized reflective blanket/bivies are OK but the complaint I have of them is that they are too small for 70% of the population! (Sorry, AMK, but I am not a 150 lb weakling.)

Tarps are great temporary shelters and if made of silnylon are very compact. But they are much less convenient above tree line if you need something to tie off too.
Posted by: Phaedrus

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/29/19 08:54 PM

I generally buy bigger space blankets. AMK and Titan both make versions that are much larger than the cheapos.
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 05/31/19 03:09 AM

I always spring for the "2 person" size
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 06/16/19 06:42 PM

I might just carry an umbrella and sit under that overnight; multi use, small and waterproof
Posted by: Ren

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 06/16/19 07:46 PM

Bothy Bags are popular over here (Europe). Come in various sizes from 2 person and up (Terra Nova make a 20 person one).

Here's promo vid for an inexpensive brand's version, but they demonstrate how they're used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YWwR8XTsRE

Posted by: hikermor

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 06/16/19 09:27 PM

My"core bag" (essentials that go on every outing) includes a SOL emergency bivvy and some sort of mylar blanket. The mylar sheeting is used to make some sort of leanto shelter and I tuck my weary bod into the bivvy with as much insulation as I can scrounge....

Total weight is around 5 oz.
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 06/17/19 05:20 PM

...Or even a pair of contractor type trash bags (55 gallon)
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 07/10/19 05:17 PM

...I think a jacket and a fabric tarp would cover most situations.
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 09/17/19 09:48 PM

One of the new, lightweight tars might fit the bill
Posted by: wileycoyote

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 09/18/19 02:51 PM

for 20 years i've carried a Land-Shark as my emergency bivi bag

https://www.land-shark.com/how-it-works#features

their description:

"The Land Shark is constructed of a micro-thin layer of aluminized film laminated to a resilient, composite reinforced, ripstop material. The aluminized coating reflects up to 80% of radiated body heat. The tightly-woven ripstop reinforcing seam construction resists tears and punctures, even from boots and sticks. The Land Shark is completely windproof, waterproof and acts as a vapor barrier. The Land Shark Instant Survival Shelter measures only 6” x 8” x 1” and weighs a mere 22 oz. (0.623 kg.). When needed, it opens to a windproof, waterproof, heat-retaining and roomy 38” x 80” (96.52 cm x 203.2 cm)."
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 11/26/19 12:26 AM

A simple poncho and cord would suffice
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 12/18/19 10:25 PM

WalMart has a cheap light 5x7 tarp
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 12/19/19 03:31 AM

A light weight bivvy sack would be very handy for an impromptu overnighter. Something like:

https://www.surviveoutdoorslonger.com/shelters/survive-outdoors-longer-emergency-bivvy.html

This same company has additional bivys, somewhat warmer and more expensive, and others produce similar products. In mild conditions, with a bit of extra clothing, this is all you need.
Posted by: teacher

Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes - 08/04/21 07:52 PM

I think a good rain coat would suffice