weight vs. value

I am in an unrelated class this week with guys from several other agencies. On our break this morning we were talking about the two skiers recently lost at a local ski resort. The topic quickly changed to survival gear. A couple of us mentioned how our packs for remote area day hikes were weighing in around the 20 to 30 lbs. range. Most of which is survival gear or considered as such. A gentleman from the division of forestry told a story of long ago when he went through S.E.R.E. school in the military. He said we started out with all of our gear and by day two we were shedding gear by the arm loads. He said by the end of the course we emerged with our ponchos w/liners,patrol hats, canteen w/cups, kives and fire making ability. everything else was just extra weight and after days with minimal to no food and water at a premium things feel like they are made out of lead. Which makes complete sense. He said a way to check yourself when loading your pack is to ask yourself "Am I going to die if I dont have this with me or is it just a luxury item" Just thought I would share this little story as it put me in check on some of the things/weight I carry. It also made me remeber how important it's going to be to watch how you burn your stored energy/calories.

The more knowlege and skill the less equipment you realy need. IMHO most of the equipment that we talk about here and carry with us is more about comfort than actual survial. I personaly can make it with my just my skills and knowlege but my pack is still in the 20lb range, but that does include a few days worth of food.

I wish my pack were only 20 lbs. I guess that means I have a lot to learn

Mine is probably in the 10-15 lbs range. Might be a bit heavier today, since I was fiddling with MRE's yesterday and crammed 2 into 1 bag. Don't know why it's so light relative to yours. Usually I have the 10 essentials, an extra layer (like a rain jacket or vest), and some food and water.

John Muir was said to go into the Sierra Nevada with his wool coat, tin cup and some hard-tack in his pockets. I am sure he had a knife, some fire making tools and a few other items but probably not much more.

We as a culture have definitely learned to bring our "house" along with us into the woods; most of it we don't need but going from a mattress and boxspring in a house to a night on the ground is a stretch for many 21st century folks. It is just what we are used too.
Bill

I weighed my pack today just for sh#@% and giggles. 15 lbs. without water and only a handful of granola bars. I am having a love/hate relationship with the crusader canteen/stove kit.

"... canteen w/cups..."


I understant that the US military no longer issues canteens and cups, just Camelbaks. I wonder how you heat water with no canteen cup...

I am sure that many people carry true luxury items in their "survival gear", such as a music player. However, I see the tendency toward packing a big load of survival gear differently than as an inability to pare away the luxuries and stick to the necessities. I think it has more to do with the role that the unknowable plays in survival situations.

Is bugproof net clothing a luxury or a survival necessity? Well... that depends upon whether you will get a deadly disease from a parasite bite, if you don't use the bugproof net clothing. So, will you? You have no way of knowing, in some cases. Is a back up firestarting method a luxury or a necessity? That depends upon whether your primary firestarting method fails during a life threatening situation. Will it? Again, you can't tell in advance.

(Such possibilities really do happen. I've picked up a disease from a tick bite which would have killed me, without medical intervention. I've reached into my gear and found my lighter broken.)

Since we don't know in advance whether any given item will turn out to be critical or unused when a survival situation strikes, we take our best educated guesses, and place out bets by making the survival gear choices we do. Sometimes, for some folks, that means a weighty load.

It's not that any given piece of survival kit is intrinsically a luxury item (or intrinsically a necessity), and we are miscategorizing it; instead, it's that the same piece of kit is sometimes a luxury and other times a necessity, and we'll never know which it will be, in advance.

By the way, here's the fundamental survival gear I carry:

http://www.mikespinak.com/articles/Essays/e995mypsk.html

I also carry other stuff, like warm clothes and food.

We do still get issued canteens and cups but we also get the camelbaks, so most of the youngsters that don't know any better leave the canteen cup at home when we're out in the field.

I would think it rather easy to pare down to essential gear in short order, which is why my kits come modularized. Figuring out how to make the tools you do need into mulit-taskers to satisfy as many of the essentials as possible can help quite a bit. So I guess one really needs to sit and think what the needs might be and what could be used to fill those needs and only those needs, for a given survival condition you are likely to encounter (for instance, I don't need arctic gear here in Florida at any time, but I would need it in Denver now).

Is there an easy way to get water from the Camelbak to the cup? Seems that pouring from the opening in the Camelbak might waste water, removing the bite valve might cause it to losed in the tube. What do you do???

You can pinch the bite valve with your fingers and squeeze the bladder and you can get it to flow.

My (day)hiking / hunting/scouting, bag is around 5 lbs, with out water.
I scaled down my pack a couple years ago, because I realized I was either going to have some stuff I needed, or nothing, because it was to dang heavy to drag around.
I am down to this:
Cammenga compass - wrist band, tritium markers

GPS - Garmin 60CSX

Wistle

Knife - Buck Crosslock with Drop point & saw blade. (5oz)

Bic lighter, fire source 1

Sweedish Firesteal - Flint, fire source 2

Match case - (fire tender inside) with dryer lint, 3/4 of a esbit tab, fishing line and 3 small hooks, and (out side) a couple feet of duct tape wrapped around it.

1 small snow Peak Titanium Bowl - water procurment & boil

Bandana

1 AMK heat sheet

1/4 roll of toilet paper

25 ft of para cord

Medicine - (3each) - Nexium, Immodium AD, Benedryl, Vicoden, & Chapstick

2 AA bateries - for GPS


Thats it!

(note no first aid kit, I make due with the drugs, Bandana, tolit paper, & Duct Tape)


Things I might add depending on the trip distance:
Food, energy bars, snickers
First Aid kit
Multi Tool
folding saw (this goes in the bag 75% of the time anyway)
Firearm - revolver
Emergency Bivy
Water Filter - Katadyn guide

As a rule though, I like to go as light as possible.

That's a very good point. Things definately weigh more after a few days without food. The usual problem is most people lack the skills needed to travel light, so they fall back on gear. If you look at someone like Nessmuck or the Alps Iceman you'll see people that would travel long distances through the wilds with little more than a blanket, knife and fire kit.

The problem is we can't predict the future. If I thought the only risk I faced was getting lost then the blanket/knife/fire would be all I'd bring. However, if I then break a leg I'd probably be screwed. So I pack a few things for that possibility. Then I think of a few more dangers and more gear is added. Soon I was ending up with the 30lb day hike pack, which, quite frankly here in Texas is silly. I've pared it down to my survival kit which I've posted in the past, some water bottles, and a first aid kit. I want to enjoy the freedom of the woods without a hospital/military surplus store on my back.

-Blast, just rambling

If I remember correctly Nessmuk's gear weighed 26 lbs including his 18lb. canoe. He was a frail 110lb. man and wasn't capable of carrying much...I guess necessity was the mother of invention in that case. I hear everything he carried was custom made to be smaller than usual and light...not unlike some people in modern times though the motivation for doing so seems to have shifted.

I've been watching the Ray Mears episodes somebody posted in another link. Last night I watched the episode where he makes a birch bark canoe. They build the whole thing in 7 days and use little more than an axe, a crooked knife, and an awl.

Hi Raydarkhorse,

Can you share with us with do you carry with you and in your 20 lbs pack?

Thanks.

I'll have to get it out for a full inventory, I'll try to get it out in the next couple of days

In a perfect scenario we all should be able to go out with just our survival kits and live, but mtnlvr68 was talking about the entire pack not just the survival kit in it.

I agree with raydarkhorse. If we were perfect we would all be sitting under a waterproof shelter built from only natural materials and cooking fresh trout over a fire with only a pocket knife and a book of paper matches in hand. However that is not the case and we all supplement our basic survival kits with items we each feel will benefit us best in a survival scenario. For example: I am terrible at starting a fire with a bow and drill or plow method so I carry more fire starting ability than a guy who is good at it.
As far as luxury items I was referring to things like; A gortex bivy sack instead of a plastic garbage bag. A 123v flashlight instead of a photon micro or chem lite. A snow peak titanium cup is definatley a luxury item compared to a sheet of tin foil when it comes to boiling water. IMHO...

I've lost track of SERE graduates who think they are defacto experts on survival. They are experts in some aspects of survival, but mostly moving very fast and unobserved away from bad guys. How many of us are going to run from Colonel Saito with Creedence Clearwater Revival singing 'RUN THROUGH THE JUNGLE?'My #1 don't leave home without it survival item is my Wiggy bag.If I ever do manage to get in a wreck, I am NOT building Fort Zinderhoff with my knife,spearing, snaring or shooting Bart the Bear or dancing nekkid like Robin Williams in THE FISHER KING, er Tom Hanks in CASTAWAY building fire like some rite of boy to man passage initiate.No Sir, I am going to curl up in my warm bag, chew on some fruitcake by the fire and blow my whistle and work my mirror.If that doesn't work, I'll initiate plan B and go walkabout as recorded by A.B. Banjo Patterson in his poem turned national Anthem of OZ.I don't care what Nessmuck did or how light a pack can be made.This is survival, not some Zen pursuit of non attachment and Muir Minimalism.Being slave to an arbitrary wieght in the literature is just as burdonsome as a truly to heavy pack.

Hi mtnlvr68,



It all depends on the conditions and the type of environment that you would expect to be dealing with. A goretex bivy sack is going to give more protection than a plastic garbage bag. The difference in protection might be the difference between life and death. This has happened before in the Scottish Cairngorm mountains when two climbers were caught out overnight in a winter blizzard. The one with the goretex bivy sack survived (less a few fingers and toes), the one with the orange survival polybag didn't. The Snowpeak Ti cups are superb, they are tough, lightweight and very reliable pieces of kit, the tin foil cup type isn't especially in medium, longer time survival situations. The 123v flashlight will outperform a photon micro (better endurance and greater light output) and or a chemlite for only minimal weight disadvantage (a few grams more). The difference in light output and light endurance could be the difference in being spotted by SAR or not. I don't think they are luxury items just higher performance items which can help improve the odds in a survival outcome.

i think what Chris is saying is that we should not confuse
survival with escape and evading as practiced in the military.
we also confuse survival with ultra-light camping which may
have some things in common but they are not the same..

I agree with Am_Fear_Liath_Mor.

Again, this involves the unknowable. If you come to find yourself in a true survival crisis, will it be one with modestly inclement weather or extremely inclement weather? Will it last for a night or for a week? Will you be severely injured or in perfect health? Etc. In some cases, you just can't know.

(By the way, I think it is unwise to think of minimalist-but-reliable gear as a luxury [versus severely compromised, unreliable, extreme-short-term gear as a necessity], as in your example of the titanium cup versus tin foil.)

Nothing is needed - until it's needed.

Well, I would think a person could come up with some idea of what would be most likely needed in a survival situation, even before they actually enter into one. The usual suspects come to mind, like keeping warm and dry, or cool and dry, depending on the location and time of year, having something more effective than your voice and/or hand waving to signal possible rescuers with, drinking water would be kinda handy, and maybe something to niblle on once in a while. There are myriad other considerations, but these become more esoteric to the individual, their situation, and what they are willing to put up with.

There's a balance between two different axioms (cliches):

It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Chance favors the prepared mind.(not to be confused with the prepared kit)

Somewhere in between there is the nirvana we all ought to be striving towards.

The only point I was trying to make is that if weight is a concern there are things that can be done to reduce the SIZE and WEIGHT of your pack/kit. Does it compromise the quality and endurance of the gear? you are right Absolutely! Thus one has to rely more on his skill/abilities vs. gear. IE. I know myself and know if I was in a bad spot with cold fingers I would end up tearing foil while trying to purify water over a fire. Therefore I carry the ti cup.

Personally, I feel that the recommendations of this site adhere to both principals.

There are multiple recommendations of what kinds of items should go in a type of kit for your home, automobile, workplace, etc. that only take into account the item’s effectiveness and durability (not weight) simply because they are meant for a kit that should not be mobile.

Then, there are also recommendations of what you should be putting in your OtterBox/Altoids tin/whatever that take into account both weight and effectiveness. These are the “personal survival kits” or “pocket survival kits” that you can find strewn about the whole forum, and they are extremely effective minimalist kits.

A person who is truly prepared probably will not be debating which type of kit is actually better, since by design they are meant for different things. You have to keep the big picture in mind. The overweight automobile kit is meant for if your automobile breaks down in the middle of nowhere. The overweight home kit is meant for natural disasters that affect your ability to live in or leave your home. These kits are not meant to be mobile, but can be pared down to become mobile kits. The EDC “pocket survival kit” is meant for those times when you do not have another kit on your back to rely on.

JCWohlschlag, Exactely!
The original post was in the context of "day hike". Most of my beyond the beaten path adventures are in the context of hunting/scouting so I can well relate to the keeping it light point of view.
I'm sorry you are not going to carry around 40-50 lbs of "gear" on your back and get much day hiking or hunting in. I'ts just not nessesary. We are not talking about "packing in" for 7 days, or bugging out for an unspecifed amount of time. The context is day hike. The plan is to go back to the car/truck (where you should find more provisions), and then go home. I guess I just base my set up on getting lost or stranded for a night or two at the most. With the mindset being "I am not going to die TONIGHT from exposer"
I just can't justify carrying around 3 days worth of food and water, tent, sleeping bags, etc. for a day hike. (thats not survivng anyway, thats called "camping", we do that for fun in these parts) I will just have to make a couple snikers and a camelbak last for a while.

In a discussion of gear/weight, I’m reminded that when I was a (much) younger man and a little less wise, I might have been mistaken for a small pack mule, since my philosophy was “if I own it, I carry it” (those were also the misguided days of “the bigger the knife, the better”).

Fortunately, with age came wisdom. These days I’m guided by the old adage, “the right tool for the job.” I have a core kit that’s carried no matter what; beyond that, it’s supplemented based on circumstances: my physical condition, length and terrain of the outing, solo or accompanied, time of year, weather etc. Last week’s moderate 10-mile dayhike in the hills, my pack was ~12 lbs. including water.



Related, but often given less attention — at least by me — the selection of the pack in which we carry all this “stuff.” I’ve made my share of trips with a simple rucksack; still do sometimes. But these days a well-designed, comfortable pack that carries the load well — whether daypack or larger — has helped offset the limitations that come with age, and allows me to comfortably carry a reasonable amount of gear.

As for dayhikes specifically … I don’t carry “everything including the kitchen sink” nor do I think anything more than an Altoids tin is excess baggage. But I never forget that stuff happens — even on a dayhike — no matter my skills and experience. Broken leg or other injury, fall into a ravine, lost, surprise snowstorm, mano a mano with a bear . How many hunters/dayhikers have struck out for the day with little more than a knife, matches and water … and lived to regret it (or not). There’s a reason why SAR is a thriving industry.

Commonsense is a good bit of gear — and it weighs nothing.

xbanker,

Good post. Alot of wisdom there for those listening.
I have to echo the idea of a "core kit" that is supplemented, or tailored to the outing. Good stuff, exactely my own system.

One other point on "what" is being carried. A good deal of the bulk in my kit can be contributed to the Idea of "staying found"
IE: GPS, Compasses, Maps, Whistle, Extra Batteries. I could loose almost a pound of a 5 pound core kit, on these items alone. But that would not be a bright move, since they greatly promote avoiding a "survival situation", in the first place.

Excellent point. They may be redundant, but staying found is a huge step in avoiding an unintended overnight or worse assuming you can't find yourself the next day. My small GPS weighs ounces but will show me exactly where I am in relation to any point I've programmed (my truck, my last turn point, etc.) or I can just use UTM to find myself on a map. If I was in a mood to drop weight, it would be difficult to justify dumping my navigation.

If you think about it, there is a difference between going into the wilderness for an indefinite amount of time, and going in for a specific period.

If you have plenty of time and no constraints as Nessmuk typically did, it doesn't matter if you have to hunker down for a day or two in order to make gear or fix broken gear (like snowshoes, just for an example). It doensn't matter if it gets dark and you have to stop for the night. And it doesn't matter if a big storm suddenly occurs because you just hunker down for a couple of days and ride it out in a sheltered spot. So in this case you don't have to carry a headlamp, a big hank of paracord, extra clothing etc and etc to deal with contingencies. Even if you become "lost" it might not be a big deal - you have plenty of time to get yourself unlost. With plenty of time available you can trade time for gear to some extent.

However if someone expects you back by a certain time or they will contact search and rescue, you need to take steps to help insure you can walk those miles even if darkness falls, there is a mishap, some essential part of your gear fails, no matter what the weather, etc. This kind of wilderness trip requires backup gear that adds weight you must carry.

This is precicely what I've been thinking about recently. Last night I was thinking about my gear (and about Nessmuk) and watching some Ray Mears episodes...maybe a good combo or maybe bad...

But anyhow, I realized that many of the items I carry are no good for an extended (or indefinate) stay in the wilderness....be it willing or not.

By my standards an extended stay is over a month. I always think about a 40 day time period as extended since that's about how long one can live without food.

Some items which I'm seriously questioning as 'extended survival gear' (though they still may be great for hiking/camping) now include:

• MSR MIOX pen (dead batteries!)
• Pioneer Filter Straw (limited overall capacity)
• Gerber EAB Folding Saw (I can't sharpen a saw in the wilds)
• Optimux Crux stove (once the fuel is gone, it's dead weight)
• GMRS Radio (proven to be not very useful...and again batteries!)
• GPS (helpful initially...but again with the batteries!)

Some other things I've been thinking a lot about are items like gear repair, first aid, and fire lighting. Many items in these kits are single use or used up quickly. While some of these items are good to have either way, I'm going to move towards stocking more of the 'good' items which are used up (ie: needles and thread) and get rid of some of the luxury items so that I'm not reliant on them. Same with fire making. I need to become less reliant on tinders. It's nice to have some for emergency and on a weekend trip they're great. But for survival I'm not sure it's good to be reliant on them.

Okay enough thread jacking...how does all this mumbling relate to weight vs value?

Well for me I've really re-thought what 'value' is and how it reltes to weight. 2 months ago I had a really hard time distinguishing between a survival item and a camping or hiking item...but thanks to this site and all of you I can now look at an item and say 'This <insert favorite widget here> is good for hiking but dead weight if I'm trying to survive in the bush for 40 days' without contradiction. For me this is hard because I truly WANT my gear to cover both angles...and, for me, it just can't. From some of my previous posts I'm sure a lot of you know that I compensated by trying to carry as much as possible...the more I carry a heavy pack, the more I desire to shed weight. I can compromise however by giving up a few luxuries and redundancies and replace them with some simple, high quality, well thought out equipment. By doing so I get more value where it counts (survival) AND less weight where it counts (a week long hike for example). And if I fill the gaps with education and experience, I've lost nothing.

I'm also discovering that redundancy is a real weight killer. While some is good (I like to have 2 knives just in case...but I've been known to carry as many as 5). These extra items can be heavy, and bring no value (unless that rare circumstance rears it's ugly head).

There's one side benefit too and it's pure vanity. As a guy typically obsessed with gadgets, I love nothing more than whipping a neat toy out in the bush to impress friends and strangers alike. It's much better to whip out a skill nobody else has and get the same job done with less hardware than anybody else can. I've impressed more people in every day life the past 6 months just with the knots I've learned to tie through my SAR training than I have with any of my gadgets.

I've thought about it many times. I even put together one myself with a 12V folding solar panel and an Energizer USB battery charger.

Instead I decided to go with learning how to better use my compass. It weighs less than any of my proper navigation gear, it's proven technology, and no batteries!

Besides...Between the extra batteries in my pack, the GPS in my phone, my old Garmin GPS12, AND the 4 compasses (1 regular, 3 button), I think I'm still in overkill land.

The moral is to the physical ten to one. Decent music and JPEG's of your loved ones will keep your spirits up.

I posted links to E.T.S. and your articles on the website (forum) for the camera club (Windsor Photographic Society) that i am a member of. On the grounds that our members go to all sorts of exotic places to get a picture.

Unfortunately they ain't taking a great deal of notice. Usual story. It's probably going to take a funeral before they take notice.

Are you aware that Ozzie the Iceman was murdered? They found at least one arrow wound in his back. Seems that he was (most likely) attacked for his herd/goods. He escaped his attackers by going uphill but became weakened by loss of blood. He took shelter but died of a combination of blood loss and hypothermia.

So I should be carefull about drawing too many conclusions about how much or little he had. I think that the goods found with him were his E.D.C. Every thing else was taken by his attackers/murderers.

Well, here are my two cents: If I'm lost, I'm going to stop walking and wait for rescue. People who are lost and try to walk their way out cause many more problems for would-be rescuers who may have the proposed hike route by the lost people who are now hopelessly out of sync with their plan. Once I figure out I'm lost, I just stop.

Weight then becomes a non-issue. I sit there in my emergency orange shelter with my french coffee press, garlic press, dutch oven, and my emergency orange lawn chair, waiting for them to come to me. I'll probably blow my emergency orange super whistle occasionally, too.

I've had several survival classes from the Air Force, and the goals are completely different from being lost. Pilots are shot down over enemy territory and need to evade capture and survive. Combat troops in survival situations in enemy territory also need to evade capture and survive. I'm not evading capture.

If I'm lost, the first things I want are to be visible and to be still so I can be located. I want to remain well-hydrated and well-fed if at all possible.

Your mileage will vary. Your need for a fresh pot of hot coffee will vary. The need for a garlic press, however, never varies.

I buy pre-pressed garlic in the tube. Sacrilage maybe but it gets garlic into the camping pot!

Yes, I knew he had been attacked and fatally wounded, but I wasn't aware that his attackers had caught him and stolen his gear. I wonder why they left his copper axe. At the time this axe would have been very valuable as it wasn't something one person could make on their own. It required a community to mine, smelt and cast the copper for his axe.

-Blast

I don't think they caught him. IIRC they found more than Ozzie's DNA; so he drew some blood and got away, that's why he still had what was found with him. Didn't they determine that Ozzie was a traveler and that he probably found himself in the wrong place defending himself? Where/when/how was it determined he was "attacked for his herd/goods"?

He got away from his attackers with what was on him. Unfortunately it did not do him a great deal of good. He may have had companions who perished in the attack - or been attacked by those companions.

Unfortunately, we will never know. We can only make an educated guess based on criminal forensics.

The people of his time where not a great deal different to us. Same desires, wants & motives. Good and bad.

An attack on an armed individual carries a considerable element of risk. Therefore it follows that he was attacked for a reason. Most likely something he was carrying. I seriously doubt that he was travelling alone. One, possibly more companion is more likely. Wife, Brother, close relative, member of his tribe.

Its unusual for lone travelers to be attacked. Unless your a member of a tribe at feud/war with another tribe. You are more likely to be welcomed. If only for the news and infomation you have. They might want to trade with your people later. And showing hospitality is a good way to open the door.

I’m not an archeologist but, from stories my grand parent, great grand parents told a person who found his way into the village/camp was not usually harmed there, but that protection did not extend to after he left. Though it may be unusual to attack a lone stranger in our minds in the not to distant past a stranger was an enemy. Lone travelers would have been more likely to be attacked because of a decided advantage in numbers, or weapons. We can't place our values and morals on a past culture their lives were so different, and in a lot of cases morals and values would have been dictated by those differences.

I just picked up and read a book called The Soldier's Load and The Mobility of a Nation. It was a fascinating read, about how modern technology had transformed logistics but that the military mind hadn't caught up and was unlikely to. It was written just after World War II and I have to say that sixty years later the words still ring true.

After reading I was sorely tempted to recite some of the insights here. However, the more I thought about it the more I realized that very little of what the author says about loading a soldier translates to how we should load ourselves in anticipation of a possible survival situation. The book says that as mechanical transport brings the frontline and the rear echelon closer together the soldier's individual load should be reduced to preserve strength for combat. This doesn't apply at all to the sort of survival we're preparing for, since by its very nature we would be cut off from any supply or support outside of what we carry on our backs.

What the book said that does apply to us is that experienced soldiers will dump any equipment they are given that doesn't immediately apply to the battle he is fighting. For us it's important to recognize our personal tolerance for carrying weight we don't intend to use. Some people are content carrying a forty pound pack and won't leave it behind the one day they actually need it. Other people find anything that bulges in their pockets to be an excessive encumbrance. Finding the limit of your tolerance for extra weight and eliminating anything in excess is key. Because while we don't intend to move around once we are in a survival situation, we will be moving around to get into that situation and our kit has to be on our backs or it simply doesn't do a single wit of good.

Hi Arotic,

I agree with you on your thoughts that each person has their own tolerance for extra weight/gear and that in a survival situation useless material will be abandoned. I tend to be a little heavy on the EDC of survival items but I would bet that most Forum members are. I think this is OK as long as you are willing/capable to carry the load and realise that in different situations you may have to discard some equipment to achieve the priority survival goal of that moment (e.g. if you fall through the ice you may have to drop your pack).

"This doesn't apply at all to the sort of survival we're preparing for, since by its very nature we would be cut off from any supply or support outside of what we carry on our backs."

I find myself disagreeing with part of the above statement though. It is often the mechanical failure of my transport vehicle (truck, ATV, snowmobile, boat, aircraft, etc) that causes me to be in a survival situation. Unless the vehicle was consumed in a fire or sunk to the bottom of a lake, I usually have the vehicle itself and the load of survival equipment in it to help me improve my situation. I surely would not walk away from the security/visibility of my vehicle and all that useful equipment, with just what I could carry, unless safety was very close by or in a last resort situation.

Each occurence if different and Stopping long enough to Think clearly, throughly Observing your situation/resources then developing/implementing a Plan, will get you out of most difficulties.

My $0.02 cents.

Mike

I wasn't thinking at all about situations that begin at a disabled vehicle. But vehicle or no vehicle an individual in a survival situation is fundamentally different then an army with solid logistical support which can evacuate casualties, bring in re-enforcements or bring in supplies that may or may not have been in the initial plan. We don't have that option. No casevac, no cold weather clothing if we didn't pack it. As you point out though, if you start from a vehicle the difference is far less pronounced, you don't have to strike as delicate balance between carrying everything you need and not leaving a heavy pack at home. Your car can carry your heavy pack it just can't get you home or to a hospital.

Resource budgeting:

Hacksaw added a powerful insight differentiating gear and supplies of one-time or limited-time use [consumables] versus gear and supplies that with care offer survival support for an extended time.

Careful focus on needs versus wants to acquire skill / knowledge on creating replacements / substitutes for the consumables as a high priority seems as prudent as part of survival preparation.

While acquiring gear, and skills to use gear, that offer survival support for an extended time seems to share high priority, the needs versus wants analysis suggests minimizing resources committed to this stuff to only the most critical – at least until you have committed your resources to acquiring what you feel is a comfortable level of skill / knowledge on creating replacements / substitutes for the consumables.

Some disciplined choices here are bound to frustrate the desire for “toys,” at least at first.

Love/hate relationship? Mainly due to weight?

I know that my USGI canteen, cup, and carrier is a lot heavier than any of my other water bottles.

The Crusader (OK, OK, I know this is "unpatriotic") looks like a better set up than the USGI set up. I like the wider mouth if nothing else.

All right, here I go displaying my ignorance, but what the Sam Hill is a Wiggy Bag? Some sort of bivy sack? Sleeping bag?

http://www.wiggys.com/

Ah, gotcha. I figured it was something like that. They look like reasonably good bags, but they seem heavy for their temperature ratings.

Back to the thread theme: weight versus value.

My daypack is only 2 and a half pounds without water. I might not be as equipped as people here, but I am certainly more prepared than most people in the outdoors.

Weight versus value preparedness spectra ideas.

Physical weight may relate to value differently in different survival situations. The value of ultra-light consumables may match up better in a short-term emergency, for example.

As I think about this, my mind wants to classify things to help plan appropriate preparation. I presume wiser heads have already thought this through and I welcome corrections and comments to help me better wrap my head around these concepts.

Possible gear kit weight spectrum:

1. ultra-light - PSK and PFAK, recreational day pack

2. lightweight – BOB, recreational backpack

3. medium weight – car kit

4. heavy weight – survival cache


Possible gear value spectrum:

1. Ultra-low – single use consumable

2. Low – multiple use consumable, or battery dependent

3. Medium – self-powered or high-quality mechanical

4. High – skill-based and replaceable


Possible survival need spectrum:

1. Short-term emergency – almost instant need to take action to preserve and protect self or others, such as first aid.

2. Limited-term emergency – one-dimensional, limited time, limited area problem with need to preserve and protect self or others, such as power loss from a storm

3. Long-term emergency – multi-dimensional, uncertain duration, either a widespread problem with need to preserve and protect self or others, such as power, water, sewer, etc. out due to a major regional hurricane, or to your group without expectation of short-term assistance, such as plane crash deep in the wilderness

4. Permanent emergency – TEOTW-type scenario

Hikin_jim
yes my problem with the Crusader canteen/cup/stove kit is that it is alot of weight for what it is. There are some lightweight alternatives to this kit which have almost the same durable aspects as the Crusader kit. Since this thread started I have moved my Crusader kit to my vehicle kit and went the Nalgene bottle/titanium cup way for my pack. Using the Nalgene bottle for more storage which I couldnt do with the Crusader due to the size of the mouth.

OK, that's kind of what I figured. The stainless steel cups while durable are heavy. I've seen the Ti cups that fit over the bottom of a standard Nalgene, and that looks like a better way to go. (besides I've already got several Nalgenes)

Thanks!

Let me add my 2 cents and hopefully get back to the original question.

First two points:
1. SERE and the choice of equipment has little to do with a day pack. VERY different problem, different solutions. Even the course equipment is different from what experienced people carry in the field. The course usually sets limits on equipment and you are required to spend a certain number of days in the field. It ends when the course is over. In real life you want to get out FAST! Even in the 60's many carried 2 survival radios and extra batteries - in place of food and even ammo. Extra mirrors (they were glass), smoke and flares were important.

2. Long term survival has NO real part in the discussion of a day pack. You should have left a trip plan, notified people where you were going, carried a PLB - in short this is a limited time problem. Food is comforting, not necessary. Being warm, dry and found is the critical part.

The equipment in a day pack can be divided (for survival purposes) into three areas: The items you carry for the reason you are in the woods, The items you carry for use that day that can be helpful during a survival situation and The true survival equipment that you carry ONLY for survival use.

The first group is normally just slightly useful for survival, ie Cameras, hunting equipment, tools (I am a geologist and carry a rock hammer, etc). They can add considerable weight but we willingly carry it because we want to or have to. Not my impression of the topic of this discussion.

The second group is important, but once again we carry much of this for daily use and would carry it anyway (although weight here is certainly of more importance). As an example, our primary water bottle is not carried for survival. It is however very useful. In my case I carry a small stove (MSR Pocket Rocket) because I like tea and often soup for lunch and in many places it is bad manners or very time consuming to build a fire like I did in the Rockies in my youth. Although these items should be regularly surveyed to keep the weight down, their primary use may dictate a different standard for them.

The third group is the equipment you carry for survival. Here there are many outside influences on what you carry and the weight to value considerations. When I am working in Florida in the summer, a sleeping bag is not in my ruck. It goes in right after signaling if I am working in Alaska. How far I may be from help is also a big question. If I work in Northern Alaska, carried in by helicopter, I plan for a longer stay than if I am enjoying the leaves in the NC mountains.

In all of this, my prime criteria is that I can stay comfortable (where I am) until help arrives. My first priority is getting help (a PLB, signal mirror, flares, whistle, aviation radio (part of the second catagory), etc.

If you would like to see what I carry for a specific situation, let me know.

Respectfully,

Jerry

That seems consistent; a good extension of the application.

In general, I think you're right about food. In cold weather, however, I think the priority on food ought to be a lot higher. Food = calories = warmth = reduced chance of hypothermia. If you've ever spent extended times in cold weather, you know what I'm talking about: you get ravenous.

Comments?

Jim,

I agree that food is more critical for cold weather, but enough for the day + is part of the second catagory, stuff you are carrying for the day's use. Yes, I agree with you that in the cold there should be extra (3rd catagory) only for survival use, but it should place way behind staying found (nav), getting help (signaling) and proper shelter (both clothing and a extras).

In the winter I always carry plenty of extra food, as well as a light sleeping bag (usually an overbag to add to my parka and insulated pants - has worked well to -30F overnight). If you have the good shelter you can get by with less food. In a blizzard, the food will not make up for the lack of shelter (although in some areas shelter is easier to dream up). The Inuit caught in a blizzard takes off his mittens, places them on the ground and sits on them with his knees and arms inside the parka. Back to the wind, behind a mound of snow or in a depression they can sit for a day or two. I prefer to stretch out in my bag under a shelter I brought and eat my high calorie munchies :-).

The Wiggies bags may be a little heavier, but they are bulletproof. Very reliable kit.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Now the question is what food?

Pass the Pemmican ball. At 8,000 calories per pound, it'll keep you warm for a while.

Jerry:

Points very well taken. I think you've got a good balance there. Staying found can keep you from needing the extra food in the first place. Signaling can get you rescued so you again don't need the extra food. And, yes, food alone in a cold, exposed environment ain't gonna cut it: You have to have shelter.

Very interesting about the Inuit; I've heard that before that in cold wx you should sit, huddled up into a ball. I hadn't heard that you should sit on your mittens, but it makes sense.

Knowing really basic primitive survival skills saved my life once. My dad and I got caught out for two nights when we went for a winter day hike. The lows were in the 30's to 20's with ice in spots on the ground. It started raining. Hard. We got soaked to the skin. Dad had read some of John Muir's books. In bad wx, Muir used to dance all night to keep from getting hypothermia. Dad and I did jumping jacks -- all night. The moment we stopped, we started shivering. Jumping jacks (or dancing) are pretty low tech, but here I am still in the land of the living. We can sometimes make the mistake of being too gear focused and miss the obvious!